Lucci CRT 3: The Payback War

[DaMonkeMan]

KT's first response summed it up well. Being dodged by a dude with FS isn't a point against Lucci. He still reacted to the bite, the stone-spit, the initial clash.
Tanking the kick to the face and outputting enough force to clash with buso luffy counts for his Dura, AP and LS for sending Luffy flying backwards. Can't even make the argument of Luffy holding back since he was using Buso there. There's no reason to if he was just love-tapping Lucci, not like Lucci's a logia type that needs Buso to be interacted with.
Up until Luffy amping his attack via slingshotting and using his arm like a flail for greater force, Lucci didn't even bleed.

Idk what there is to agree with to be honest- so mark me down as disagree as well.

Immediately after, Luffy knocked him out though.
And that's the problem.
It implies either his passive amp makes him way stronger than he was with a Buso-amped kick in less than a minute, or it's just a very inconsistent fight throughout.
"Being dodged by a dude with FS"
Lol? So what? Did ya not give him speed that would put him on the level of people like Kaidou, BM, etc.?
And iirc, those characters could hit, and react to, Luffy regardless of his FS.
Not to mention right after he could literally catch Luffy in a clash, so what's the problem? Did his FS magically turn off there?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

And spitting rocks at someone isn't really a good speed feat for them, you can't say he spat those rock at a speed relative to his own, that's just nonsensical.
Most he did was dodge the bite but we still have stuff like Mole, Whip, and Rocket.
That's 3 to 1. I'd say he downscales in speed rather than say he fully scales in speed, to be generous.

 

[That_moron2]

And spitting rocks at someone isn't really a good speed feat for them, you can't say he spat those rock at a speed relative to his own, that's just nonsensical.

G5's entire point is to be nonsensical.

 

[Nierre]

Snook FRA

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Also, in the case a staff member agrees and another disagrees, what's the consensus on that?
Should another agreeing still bring grace or?

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[SnookB]

And spitting rocks at someone isn't really a good speed feat for them, you can't say he spat those rock at a speed relative to his own, that's just nonsensical.
Most he did was dodge the bite but we still have stuff like Mole, Whip, and Rocket.

By your logic Sanji needing to dodge katakuri's jelly beans makes him jelly bean level. That's stupid levels of downplay on purpose and you know it

 

[SnookB]

Lol? So what? Did ya not give him speed that would put him on the level of people like Kaidou, BM, etc.?

Why does this matter? Luffy went from a prone position to on his feet to making stupid face to grabbing, morphing and pulling the ground ALL WHILE BORO BREATH was mid-travel.
Does that make Kaido subsonic now? Clearly his boro breath is slow as **** too by your logic. Again, G5 being memey fast isn't a point against his opponents. Lucci still reacted to the clash, still reacted to the bite, still dodged the rocks. Getting hit by attacks =/= not matching up to them whatsoever. Equal dudes can still tag you if they're unpredictable enough.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

By your logic Sanji needing to dodge katakuri's jelly beans makes him jelly bean level. That's stupid levels of downplay on purpose and you know it

I haven't heard someone wank the jelly bean "feat" in a long time lol.
No way you believe that jelly bean is actually as fast as Kata, though.

Why does this matter? Luffy went from a prone position to on his feet to making stupid face to grabbing, morphing and pulling the ground ALL WHILE BORO BREATH was mid-travel.
Does that make Kaido subsonic now? Clearly his boro breath is slow as **** too by your logic. Again, G5 being memey fast isn't a point against his opponents. Lucci still reacted to the clash, still reacted to the bite, still dodged the rocks. Getting hit by attacks =/= not matching up to them whatsoever. Equal dudes can still tag you if they're unpredictable enough.

Yeah, he reacted to Bolo Breath.
What he didn't react to is the plethora of attacks Kaidou actually landed on him with ease.
We don't see G5 Luffy juking the shit out of Kaidou like we see with Lucci. There's a pretty blatant difference in speed.
For one: Yes he reacted to the bite, but that's because he literally saw Luffy pop out of the ground in giant form and slide towards him, lol.
I suppose it's a feat, but not as much as you're making it out to be.
I shouldn't have to explain why a FTL character spitting a couple rocks out doesn't make said rocks FTL.

 

[Eseseso]

Kidd's Punk Clash was just him slamming BM with standard metal bars, yet it did Yonko lvl damage that BM said surpassed anything she felt in decades (which should include her earlier fight with base Kaido).

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I do not care about that lol, I'm talking about the speed aspect not the fact that it's a couple of rocks pressuring Lucci.

 

[SnookB]

I haven't heard someone wank the jelly bean "feat" in a long time lol.
No way you believe that jelly bean is actually as fast as Kata, though.

It was threatening enough that Sanji had to dodge it via kenbun. You tell me. It's not like Vergo turned a bamboo stick into an on-hand nuke, right?

Yeah, he reacted to Bolo Breath.

He didn't "react" to Bolo breath. He reacted to Bolo breath in such a manner that it makes Kaido look like an actual literal slug.
Kaido getting feats afterwards shouldn't matter if Luffy blitzed him. It's the same case with Lucci. He failed to tag Luffy here and there, so it doesn't matter if he clashed him, dodged his bite, reacted to his stones, saw Dawn Rocket coming- At least that's your logic at play.

I shouldn't have to explain why a FTL character spitting a couple rocks out doesn't make said rocks FTL.

You should if the character is spitting them with full intent to hurt the other guy.
It's a character that can turn imagination to reality anyway, all he has to do is think "these rocks matter" and they do, even if they're the size of a pebble.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

It was threatening enough that Sanji had to dodge it via kenbun. You tell me. It's not like Vergo turned a bamboo stick into an on-hand nuke, right?

He didn't "react" to Bolo breath. He reacted to Bolo breath in such a manner that it makes Kaido look like an actual literal slug.
Kaido getting feats afterwards shouldn't matter if Luffy blitzed him. It's the same case with Lucci. He failed to tag Luffy here and there, so it doesn't matter if he clashed him, dodged his bite, reacted to his stones, saw Dawn Rocket coming- At least that's your logic at play.

You should if the character is spitting them with full intent to hurt the other guy.
It's a character that can turn imagination to reality anyway, all he has to do is think "these rocks matter" and they do, even if they're the size of a pebble.

I really don't feel like dragging this out but you aren't getting my point.
I'm not talking about how it's threatening him, it's about the speed.
All he did was flick a jellybean- I fail to see how that would make it comparable to Kata himself, especially as we see Kata hit Luffy who has better Observation with ease afterwards.

 

[SnookB]

I need to remind you that this is the verse where Haki enhances everything the character uses. Van Auger had relativistic bullets pre-ts.
Vergo spits needles out of his bamboo that detonate like bombs on impact- and make someone like Smoker look like he saw death when launched. Another case of a dude spitting something with enough force to make it threatening.
Izou's bullets can cut when infused with haki
All these regular dudes causing things infused with haki to be far faster and stronger than they regularly are, so a dude who's power it "I think therefore it is" should be so far from a point of question in comparaison.

 

[Eseseso]

I need to remind you that this is the verse where Haki enhances everything the character uses. Van Auger had relativistic bullets pre-ts.
Vergo spits needles out of his bamboo that detonate like bombs on impact- and make someone like Smoker look like he saw death when launched. Another case of a dude spitting something with enough force to make it threatening.
Izou's bullets can cut when infused with haki
All these regular dudes causing things infused with haki to be far faster and stronger than they regularly are, so a dude who's power it "I think therefore it is" should be so far from a point of question in comparaison.

Not to mention:

Kidd's Punk Clash was just him slamming BM with standard metal bars, yet it did Yonko lvl damage that BM said surpassed anything she felt in decades (which should include her earlier fight with base Kaido).

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

It being as fast as katakuri... Wait this isn't the one piece discussion thread...

Well was going to say that it being as fast as katakuri is questionable but being relative to katakuri in speed does/should make some sense

 

[SnookB]

It being as fast as katakuri... Wait this isn't the one piece discussion thread...

Well was going to say that it being as fast as katakuri is questionable but being relative to katakuri in speed does/should make some sense

Thank you.
Every projectile we've seen that should realistically be a thousand times slower than the individual scales to their own ability. G5 (Especially G5 lmao) should be no different

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I'm not even talking about the AP of the attacks I'm talking about speed so while those arguments are good, they're not relevant to what I was trying to say.
Anyway, I really don't care, this is about whether Lucci downscales, not all of that other stuff.

 

[SnookB]

I'm not even talking about the AP of the attacks I'm talking about speed so while those arguments are good, they're not relevant to what I was trying to say.

That is including speed.
Vergo's bamboo needle makes smoker's eyes widen in shock and logia dispersal is what saves him.
Izou's bullets travel far faster than regular bullets do.
Luffy throws lightning at speeds so high that the dude he can track has to move FTE to him to dodge them.
There's no reason Luffy shouldn't be able to spit a rock as fast as he'd throw anything else.

I'm fine with his rating staying the same, so far nothing really changed how his scaling to G5 works since it still doesn't scale to G5+Hao or Bajrang Gun.
It's even unfair to judge him based on his later performance as a downscale considering Luffy started laughing and got empowered since he didn't even need Buso later to cause Lucci himself to use Buso as a defense, whereas earlier both of them clashed equally with it.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Meh.
Like I said, there's still moments where he can't tag or react to Luffy, so I think there should be a bit of a downscale in speed due to those moments.

 

[Kachon123]

Meh.
Like I said, there's still moments where he can't tag or react to Luffy, so I think there should be a bit of a downscale in speed due to those moments.

As Snook mentioned, that could be due to Gear 5 Luffy's unpredictability, as we've seen Lucci being perfectly capable of reacting to his attacks several times.

 

[Eseseso]

Not to mention, Mole Pistol is Luffy using the environment to amp his punch just like how he used the ground to block Kaido's Bolo Breath.

 

[Kachon123]

Not to mention, Mole Pistol is Luffy using the environment to amp his punch just like how he used the ground to block Kaido's Bolo Breath.

I'm not too sure about that. The reason Kaidou's Bolo Breath was amped was due to Luffy turning the ground into a trampoline-type object, which has been stated to amp reflected attacks by 2x. A random punch that uses stretched ground wouldn't be amped outside of thr normal Gear 5 boost, and even if it did, it was definitely not to the level that Luffy did with Bolo Breath.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

As Snook mentioned, that could be due to Gear 5 Luffy's unpredictability, as we've seen Lucci being perfectly capable of reacting to his attacks several times.

One
Two.
Three.
Four.
I could technically count the rock panel, as we see some of them actually graze/hit Lucci and there's SFX indicating they hit something, but I'm not entirely sure about that one.
On the other hand, there's the clash, and Luffy reacting to the bite.
That's 4-2, and depending on what happened in the rock one it could be 5-2 or 4-3.
But for now it seems more consistent that Lucci downscales in speed than fully scales.

 

[Kachon123]

One
Two.
Three.
Four.

One: Luffy dodging Lucci's attacks ≠ Lucci being unable to react to Luffy's attacks

Two: This instance is an example of Luffy's unpredictability

Three: Lucci was focused on Sentomaru. Using Luffy hitting an unready Lucci to prove your point is pretty disingenuous.

Four: Not only did Luffy amp his speed by using the pipe'a elastic energy, but we literally see Lucci react to Luffy mid-motion. He was just either too slow (which I explained why above) or was just shocked.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

One: Luffy dodging Lucci's attacks ≠ Lucci being unable to react to Luffy's attacks

I'm only posting it because it shows he can't really hit Luffy either.

Two: This instance is an example of Luffy's unpredictability

Sort of a poor excuse, Lucci should have expected the fist to pop out of the ground eventually.

Three: Lucci was focused on Sentomaru. Using Luffy hitting an unready Lucci to prove your point is pretty disingenuous.

While it's certainly not solid proof, Lucci still has peripheral vision and should have seen it coming at least.
Not to mention he was using Soru during this, yet Luffy still tagged him with easy.

Four: Not only did Luffy amp his speed by using the pipe'a elastic energy, but we literally see Lucci react to Luffy mid-motion. He was just either too slow (which I explained why above) or was just shocked.

He "reacts" in the same way Buggy reacts to these:
1
2

 

[Kachon123]

I'm only posting it because it shows he can't really hit Luffy either.

That doesn't prove your point. Not being able to hit someone with future sight isn't an antifeat.

Sort of a poor excuse, Lucci should have expected the fist to pop out of the ground eventually.

Based on? If someone who is relative in speed to you randomly putting their fist into the ground, you would be busy being confused on how that even happen, let alone be prepared for an attack coming out from under you.

These scans from Chapter 4 of Road to Laughtale also support my stance, rather than yours

While it's certainly not solid proof, Lucci still has peripheral vision and should have seen it coming at least.

I completely disagree. Even if his peripheral vision did allow him to see something, that something would literally be a flash of white.

If you're fighting someone relative to you in speed and they're only in your peripheral vision and you're not even focusing on them, attacking someone else, the attack will hit you. Unless you are much faster than them, you would not at all be able to react, block, or dodge in any way, shape, or form.

He "reacts" in the same way Buggy reacts to these:

And in the same way Queen reacts to these:



Being shocked or taken aback should not be used as antifeats.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

That doesn't prove your point. Not being able to hit someone with future sight isn't an antifeat.

Lol what?
So what if he has FS? We literally see people tag him despite that.
It's like people forget the mf got tagged relentlessly by Kaidou even after unlocking G5, for the most part.

Based on? If someone who is relative in speed to you randomly putting their fist into the ground, you would be busy being confused on how that even happen, let alone be prepared for an attack coming out from under you.

These scans from Chapter 4 of Road to Laughtale also support my stance, rather than yours

This is the world of One Piece, why would he even bother being shocked by Luffy putting his fists in the ground?
And those scans don't really say anything particularly useful to this exact argument, it's just praising how ridiculous his fighting style is with G5 and talking about his adaptability.

And in the same way Queen reacts to these:



Being shocked or taken aback should not be used as antifeats.

Yeah, exactly, thanks for posting these as well.
Queen "sees" these, but still gets blitzed.

 

[Kachon123]

what?
So what if he has FS? We literally see people tag him despite that.
It's like people forget the mf got tagged relentlessly by Kaidou even after unlocking G5, for the most part.

It's like people forget that Kaidou has future sight as well.

This is the world of One Piece, why would he even bother being shocked by Luffy putting his fists in the ground?
And those scans don't really say anything particularly useful to this exact argument, it's just praising how ridiculous his fighting style is with G5 and talking about his adaptability.

It's talking about his unorthodox style and how it can shock even fighters like Kaidou.

Yeah, exactly, thanks for posting these as well.
Queen "sees" these, but still gets blitzed.

He never got blitzed.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

It's like people forget that Kaidou has future sight as well.

...Was he using that against G5 Luffy?

It's talking about his unorthodox style and how it can shock even fighters like Kaidou.

It's literally talking about adaptability dude.

He never got blitzed.

..So he SAW the attack, but decided to just get hit?
That isn't like him at all.

 

[Kachon123]

...Was he using that against G5 Luffy?

No reason why he wouldn't.

It's literally talking about adaptability dude.

Look at the first scan.

Also, part of adaptability in combat is that you're unpredictable. Coming up with new solutions and acting differently in different situations (adaptability) is very unpredictable to the opponent, as they have no idea how you'd respond next. They go hand in hand in this context.

..So he SAW the attack, but decided to just get hit?
That isn't like him at all.

First scan I sent: Queen lifting rubble. He was able to see Marco, but couldn't react due to circumstances (in the process of lifting rubble off of himself)

Second scan I sent. Sanji came out of nowhere, and because of that, Queen didn't have enough time to respond correctly, which made him get him.

My point here is that in Lucci's situation, he just destroyed the rock that Luffy spit at him, and we even see that he was still regrouping himself from when he destroyed the rock when Luffy lunged at him.

Further building onto the unpredictability of Luffy's Gear 5, in this instance, Luffy lunged toward Lucci. Against your average fighter, they would just lunge straight into you with a punch, similar to how Goku did to King Piccolo here.

Instead of doing that, Luffy ended up on the side, with only his fist remaining in that straight path he started in. This is not how normal people fight. Lucci was definitely caught off-guard by this in addition to him not even fully being prepared for the attack.

 

[Kachon123]

similar to how Goku did to King Piccolo here.

For an inverse example, Kaku lunging at Zoro:

 

[DaMonkeMan]

No reason why he wouldn't.

Look at the first scan.

Also, part of adaptability in combat is that you're unpredictable. Coming up with new solutions and acting differently in different situations (adaptability) is very unpredictable to the opponent, as they have no idea how you'd respond next. They go hand in hand in this context.

First scan I sent: Queen lifting rubble. He was able to see Marco, but couldn't react due to circumstances (in the process of lifting rubble off of himself)

Second scan I sent. Sanji came out of nowhere, and because of that, Queen didn't have enough time to respond correctly, which made him get him.

My point here is that in Lucci's situation, he just destroyed the rock that Luffy spit at him, and we even see that he was still regrouping himself from when he destroyed the rock when Luffy lunged at him.

Further building onto the unpredictability of Luffy's Gear 5, in this instance, Luffy lunged toward Lucci. Against your average fighter, they would just lunge straight into you with a punch, similar to how Goku did to King Piccolo here.

Instead of doing that, Luffy ended up on the side, with only his fist remaining in that straight path he started in. This is not how normal people fight. Lucci was definitely caught off-guard by this in addition to him not even fully being prepared for the attack.

I really do not care to continue this discussion, though I still believe you're wrong, but I'll address one thing:
There is a reason why Kaidou wouldn't use FS all the time, he simply doesn't like to go all out unless he absolutely has to.
I mean, he didn't use Kaen Daiko until the very end of the fight, for example.

 

[Kachon123]

There is a reason why Kaidou wouldn't use FS all the time, he simply doesn't like to go all out unless he absolutely has to.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

One: His drunken form is actually the only time we see him use FS, so I don't know what your point is there.
Two: All he did was dodge. Not definitive proof he used FS.

 

[Kachon123]

One: His drunken form is actually the only time we see him use FS, so I don't know what your point is there.
Two: All he did was dodge. Not definitive proof he used FS.

Not my point.

Kaidou saying that he wouldn't purposefully make himself weaker/hold back, as he sees Luffy as an equal/someone who can go toe-to-toe with him.

So to reiterate my original statement, there is no reason why Kaidou would not have been using Future Sight against Gear 5 Luffy.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Yet he didn't use Kaen Daiko there lol

 

[Darkvie123]

He still can scale to Kaidou iirc
Also I'm pretty sure all the Yonko are relative, somewhat.

No they are not.

 

[Kachon123]

Not sure what Kaen Daiko has anything to do with this?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

No they are not.

Yes they are.

Not sure what Kaen Daiko has anything to do with this?

Means he wasn't actually going all out.

 

[Darkvie123]

Yeah, exactly, thanks for posting these as well.
Queen "sees" these, but still gets blitzed.

Read the Blitz Page bro before saying "blitzed" if you react to an attack its not a blitz at all. An example of Speed Blitzing is Zoro Beating Daz Bones thats blitzing someones reactions. If you react and still get hit/damaged its not a blitz