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@Assalt They dont scale (Though technically they should be somewhat faster than your average joe), they just got blitzed
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League of Legends Speed Scaling Problem 2
- Thread starter RegisNex1232
- Start date
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- Tags
- league of legends speed
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It also makes no sense to scale different Voidborns to each other beyond possibly a general Subsonic for being superior to humans.WeeklyBattles said:
Which feat are you using for that scaling? The bullet dodging or the jumping? Because you don't specify it anywhere.
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It makes all the sense in the world for them to scale.
Leona and Pantheon fighting each other non-stop for a full day and ending in a dead standstill and multiple statements of them being equals
Leona and Pantheon fighting each other non-stop for a full day and ending in a dead standstill and multiple statements of them being equals
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Right, and you can prove that how?
Yes, but Pantheon has two different speed feats calculated. Which are you using for the rating and scaling?
Yes, but Pantheon has two different speed feats calculated. Which are you using for the rating and scaling?
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"Canonically kept up with" in this case meaning, "Diana fought three at once and only the last even managed to land a hit while she one-shot all of them". The third one specifically caught her when the moon was going behind clouds- once the moon came back out her sword one-shot it again after it healed off the previous glancing hit.WeeklyBattles said:
Leona fought Pantheon when they were both humans. That means absolutely nothing to their ascended forms.
Ascendants that aren't named are featless. Scaling is not a feat. Scaling is ascribing attributes to someone that doesn't have a feat. And given that their powers change depending what force they channel- there's literally no reason to scale them.
The same power source or faction is not proof enough to scale. Scaling requires data. You observe the data and then draw a conclusion from it.
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@Friendly You do know that its possible to keep up with someone speed-wise without being equal to them AP-wise right?
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I am fine with exceptional members scaling to the feats of less exceptional members. If a newborn rando is able to do something, Kha'zix should be able to do it as well.
I also disagree with the non-physical existence shenanigans but I will save it and bring it up for later after I do more research
I also disagree with the non-physical existence shenanigans but I will save it and bring it up for later after I do more research
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I cannot understand how in the lords name dismissing scaling for someone who has engaged in combat for an extended period of time is now 'logical'.
We have used the same power source in multiple media to scale. In fact, assuming otherwise is laughable. Ki, The Force, Allomancy, even 'Magic' from Fairy Tail. Now I am not saying all of the time, of course is there nuance. But if someone can fight someone, they scale, either in AP or speed. Unless otherwise stated or shown (Like was the person one shot or blitzed? Obviously not scaled.) You dont need to play 3D chess when you can just use Occams Razor. They scale. Weekly is correct.
We have used the same power source in multiple media to scale. In fact, assuming otherwise is laughable. Ki, The Force, Allomancy, even 'Magic' from Fairy Tail. Now I am not saying all of the time, of course is there nuance. But if someone can fight someone, they scale, either in AP or speed. Unless otherwise stated or shown (Like was the person one shot or blitzed? Obviously not scaled.) You dont need to play 3D chess when you can just use Occams Razor. They scale. Weekly is correct.
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@Heirophant We can talk about it if you'd like, i'll gladly clear up anything youre confused about
Also sorry i havent gotten those feats to you yet, been kinda busy
Also sorry i havent gotten those feats to you yet, been kinda busy
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@Weekly You do know that fighting multiple opponents at once and killing two before they land a hit on you makes you faster right? They didn't keep up.
In addition you might recall that Diana has no speed feats. She did not "physically" blitz humans by running up to them, she blitzed them by using her power to blast everything around her. That includes Leona as she didn't obtain her power till after. Neither Pantheon, Diana, Leona, or Taric have ever fought one another to show us scaling between them.
Voidborn (especially new ones) who likewise have no speed feats don't automatically get jumped up to Pantheon's feats just because they could land a hit on a different ascendent when they had an advantage of numbers to boot. Which means bigger Voidborn don't automatically get the "better Voidborn" upgrade to scale either.
In addition you might recall that Diana has no speed feats. She did not "physically" blitz humans by running up to them, she blitzed them by using her power to blast everything around her. That includes Leona as she didn't obtain her power till after. Neither Pantheon, Diana, Leona, or Taric have ever fought one another to show us scaling between them.
Voidborn (especially new ones) who likewise have no speed feats don't automatically get jumped up to Pantheon's feats just because they could land a hit on a different ascendent when they had an advantage of numbers to boot. Which means bigger Voidborn don't automatically get the "better Voidborn" upgrade to scale either.
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The voidborn that are fighting the ascendents are some of the original ones that entered Runeterra, right? Those guys are confirmed to be the strongest you know, so scaling everyone to them is not okay.
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@Heirophant No, the original Voidborn are the ones that appeared in the Freljord, the Frozen Watchers, and they are indeed the strongest. The ones summoned in Icathia were just normal, run of the mill Voidborn
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Ah okay, how many were attacking the ascendents? That's probably an important factor in determining whether or not your speed scales.
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@Friendly Nothing implies Diana was immensely faster than them, and she was blatantly unable to dodge one of their attacks. They did in fact keep up.
Diana does in fact have speed feats. The first thing she did when she got her powers was speedblitz Leona and the Solari elders. And yes Leona and Pantheon have blatantly fought and are consistently referred to as dead equals in combat.
Diana does in fact have speed feats. The first thing she did when she got her powers was speedblitz Leona and the Solari elders. And yes Leona and Pantheon have blatantly fought and are consistently referred to as dead equals in combat.
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You're walking a rather fine line for details there Weekly.
Diana was fast enough that she could 1v3 and kill two before they collectively managed to land a non-vital hit on her because they attacked from all around her. She's faster. She then, even wounded and with her opponent healed and evolving to be better, could take it down without being touched.
She "speedblitzed" humans and did so with a blast of energy- not speed. So it has nothing to do with her physical stats like reaction times or how fast she can swing her blade. Not to mention she acted first so obviously she would have the advantage even against peer opponents.
Leona and Pantheon fought as humans and they were equal. That loses any significance when they both gain additional power-ups and even individual training since then.
Diana was fast enough that she could 1v3 and kill two before they collectively managed to land a non-vital hit on her because they attacked from all around her. She's faster. She then, even wounded and with her opponent healed and evolving to be better, could take it down without being touched.
She "speedblitzed" humans and did so with a blast of energy- not speed. So it has nothing to do with her physical stats like reaction times or how fast she can swing her blade. Not to mention she acted first so obviously she would have the advantage even against peer opponents.
Leona and Pantheon fought as humans and they were equal. That loses any significance when they both gain additional power-ups and even individual training since then.
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"Presented to the elders, Diana spoke of the Moonsilver Blade Lunari, an ancient and proscribed faith that venerated the moon, and how all the truths the Solari clung to were incomplete. She described a realm beyond the mountaintop, a place where the sun and moon were not enemies, where new truths could show them fresh ways to look at the world. Leona felt her anger build with every word Diana spoke, and when the elders rejected her words and named her a blasphemer, Leona knew it would be her blade that ended the heretic's life.
Leona saw Diana's incredulous fury at the elders' denial, but before she could react, the white-haired girl Lunar Rush hurled herself forward. Blinding Crescent Strike light exploded from Diana's outstretched hands, and Pale Cascade orbs of silver fire burned the elders to dust in the blink of an eye. White flames surged in a hurricane of cold lightning and blasted Leona from the chamber. When she regained consciousness, she found Diana gone and the Solari leaderless. As its remaining members struggled to come to terms with this attack on their most sacred space, Leona knew there was only one path open to her. She would hunt down and destroy the heretic Diana for the murder of the Solari elders."
Diana physically moved and attacked before Leona had a chance to react. And Leona at the time was an Aspect not human.
Leona saw Diana's incredulous fury at the elders' denial, but before she could react, the white-haired girl Lunar Rush hurled herself forward. Blinding Crescent Strike light exploded from Diana's outstretched hands, and Pale Cascade orbs of silver fire burned the elders to dust in the blink of an eye. White flames surged in a hurricane of cold lightning and blasted Leona from the chamber. When she regained consciousness, she found Diana gone and the Solari leaderless. As its remaining members struggled to come to terms with this attack on their most sacred space, Leona knew there was only one path open to her. She would hunt down and destroy the heretic Diana for the murder of the Solari elders."
Diana physically moved and attacked before Leona had a chance to react. And Leona at the time was an Aspect not human.
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And yet they were described as moving at ferocious speed and she was unable to dodge an attack from one of them even after she managed to kill two. They are equal in speed. Just becuase she has higher AP does not mean that they cannot scale to her speed-wise.
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The lore does not state specific abilities like you put in there but you're conflating two issues:
Diana rushed forwards before Leona could react. This is physical movement, in other words speed. However the blitzing that burned everyone so quickly was a magical burst, not her sword. Which is why they were all blasted into ashes. However, you do not need to be much faster, if at all, to perform an act before someone can react, because by the simple nature of reacting, the action will always come first. So her running before Leona can react means little and the magical blasts is unrelated to speed. Diana herself doesn't even seem able to react to it at the time.
Also why are you adamant that Leona was an Aspect? You know full and well she wasn't. Her biography is in chronological order. Leona was human when she fought Pantheon to a draw (also human at the time) and was human (with more training) when she encountered Diana. It was only afterwords she became an Aspect and set off to hunt Diana. Sometime after becoming an aspect she fought the warriors on the mountain and did not hypersonic blitz them all to pieces in the blink of an eye.
And you're again omitting details for some reason. Diana's lore explicitly states they came at her together and in addition she literally jumped into the air to attack- robbing herself of any ability to maneuver until she was on the ground and surprise that's when she was hit.
They're not equal, in any stat. She's faster. Not "immensely" faster but "immensely" isn't needed when there's nothing to scale her to. Superhuman Diana moving faster than humans can react fights Voidborn which in themselves may or may not be superhuman in speed.
Aspects give different abilities to their users, so we already know they're different, which means there's no basis for scaling their strength or any other stat to one another. We have multiple showings of their powers being different- the path of least assumptions is to say their physical stats are too.
Diana rushed forwards before Leona could react. This is physical movement, in other words speed. However the blitzing that burned everyone so quickly was a magical burst, not her sword. Which is why they were all blasted into ashes. However, you do not need to be much faster, if at all, to perform an act before someone can react, because by the simple nature of reacting, the action will always come first. So her running before Leona can react means little and the magical blasts is unrelated to speed. Diana herself doesn't even seem able to react to it at the time.
Also why are you adamant that Leona was an Aspect? You know full and well she wasn't. Her biography is in chronological order. Leona was human when she fought Pantheon to a draw (also human at the time) and was human (with more training) when she encountered Diana. It was only afterwords she became an Aspect and set off to hunt Diana. Sometime after becoming an aspect she fought the warriors on the mountain and did not hypersonic blitz them all to pieces in the blink of an eye.
And you're again omitting details for some reason. Diana's lore explicitly states they came at her together and in addition she literally jumped into the air to attack- robbing herself of any ability to maneuver until she was on the ground and surprise that's when she was hit.
They're not equal, in any stat. She's faster. Not "immensely" faster but "immensely" isn't needed when there's nothing to scale her to. Superhuman Diana moving faster than humans can react fights Voidborn which in themselves may or may not be superhuman in speed.
Aspects give different abilities to their users, so we already know they're different, which means there's no basis for scaling their strength or any other stat to one another. We have multiple showings of their powers being different- the path of least assumptions is to say their physical stats are too.
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Yes, diana moved before Leona could react, glad you finally agree with me because that's what ive been saying for the past 50 posts
The voidborn tagged her means theyre if not equal then at least comparable. If she was immensely faster than them they wouldnt have landed a single hit and she would have had no issue killing them.
The voidborn tagged her means theyre if not equal then at least comparable. If she was immensely faster than them they wouldnt have landed a single hit and she would have had no issue killing them.
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Well Regis is banned so this probably won't conclude until he comes back in 2 months.
Fine, Voidborn are "comparable" (worthless term but moving on) to Diana when they have advantage of numbers, come from multiple directions, and Diana limits her ability to effectively move. I can agree to that.
Now where does that leave us? Diana with her only feat being rushing forwards faster than Leona (a human) can react. Possibly superhuman speed. Fighting multiple Voidborn that have no speed feats whatsoever. Possibly superhuman speed again.
Pantheon's current speed showings are beating humans, moving just fast enough a bullet scrapes the side of his helmet when he dodges, and his descent towards barbarians on a mountain. Respectively superhuman at least, superhuman at least, and possibly supersonic or higher but also not exactly a standard attack.
Then we can look at Leona's feats of... a normal barbarian striking her and throwing her backwards. As an Aspect. Her managing to strike two humans in the space of the normal barbarian striking down one. As an Aspect. Managing to then strike down the barbarian before he could swing again. Followed by calling down sunfire. So a bunch of superhuman feats that do not imply supersonic speeds, much less hypersonic. And then one faster attack but again not a standard one.
Taric never fought anyone at all as an Aspect. His story pretty much states he just walked into the center of a battle and nobody attacked him.
There's a marked consistency of them being superhuman in speed and strength, along with that literally being the descriptive text. There's a distinct lack of consistent supersonic showings for them, let alone higher. There's all of one hypersonic feat between the above four Aspects and it's the most vague of the bunch and in addition I've pointed out the calc summary states Pantheon jumped to the base of the mountain when the text states the enemy was "high" up the mountain.
Fine, Voidborn are "comparable" (worthless term but moving on) to Diana when they have advantage of numbers, come from multiple directions, and Diana limits her ability to effectively move. I can agree to that.
Now where does that leave us? Diana with her only feat being rushing forwards faster than Leona (a human) can react. Possibly superhuman speed. Fighting multiple Voidborn that have no speed feats whatsoever. Possibly superhuman speed again.
Pantheon's current speed showings are beating humans, moving just fast enough a bullet scrapes the side of his helmet when he dodges, and his descent towards barbarians on a mountain. Respectively superhuman at least, superhuman at least, and possibly supersonic or higher but also not exactly a standard attack.
Then we can look at Leona's feats of... a normal barbarian striking her and throwing her backwards. As an Aspect. Her managing to strike two humans in the space of the normal barbarian striking down one. As an Aspect. Managing to then strike down the barbarian before he could swing again. Followed by calling down sunfire. So a bunch of superhuman feats that do not imply supersonic speeds, much less hypersonic. And then one faster attack but again not a standard one.
Taric never fought anyone at all as an Aspect. His story pretty much states he just walked into the center of a battle and nobody attacked him.
There's a marked consistency of them being superhuman in speed and strength, along with that literally being the descriptive text. There's a distinct lack of consistent supersonic showings for them, let alone higher. There's all of one hypersonic feat between the above four Aspects and it's the most vague of the bunch and in addition I've pointed out the calc summary states Pantheon jumped to the base of the mountain when the text states the enemy was "high" up the mountain.
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Diana scales to Leona who scales to pantheon and all three of them scale to the Shuriman Ascendants and the Darkin
Characters do not need to be consistently supersonic to be rated as supersonic on this wiki, it has worked that was since day 1.
Pantheon's Hypersonic feat doesnt scale to anyone but himself
Characters do not need to be consistently supersonic to be rated as supersonic on this wiki, it has worked that was since day 1.
Pantheon's Hypersonic feat doesnt scale to anyone but himself
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I'm not sure if this was phrased correctly, don't characters' ratings need to be consistent with how they're usually portrayed, as otherwise it's an outlier and isn't used? Even if they don't need to have more than one supersonic feat, it still needs to be "consistent" in a way.WeeklyBattles said:
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@Agnaa No, because we understand here that a character will not always move at the same exact speed for every single feat they perform throughout their work. I phrased what i said exactly how i meant to phrase it.
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Plus i have no idea where he's getting the idea that its not consistent, when my blog kinda proves the opposite
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Yeah but, for example, a character that's almost always portrayed as having normal human speeds, getting blitzed by characters with actual characters with superhuman characteristics in serious moments, having one feat where they're supersonic wouldn't give them supersonic speed since it's not consistent with how they're portrayed.
"Consistent" doesn't mean "Every feat is at this level" or even, "No feats are normal human level", but more "Consistent with how they're presented overall"
"Consistent" doesn't mean "Every feat is at this level" or even, "No feats are normal human level", but more "Consistent with how they're presented overall"
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@Agnaa Yes, and the characters in question are constantly portrayed at the speeds theyve been given in my scaling blog, i wouldnt have listed them as such if they werent
Hence why im confused as to why Frieldny is saying theyre not when all the stuff in my blog proves they are
Hence why im confused as to why Frieldny is saying theyre not when all the stuff in my blog proves they are
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Holy shit, this would actually never end. This is just going in circles.
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I agree with Weekly and the speed scaling issue when it comes to voidborn. Also @Agnaa not everybody wants/should/can move at their top speed for a variety of reasons, even in combat situations.
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I think this may come down to just having to go with what the most people agree with. There are points for both sides, but I personally think most of Weekly's suggestions are more in line with the general standards of the Wiki and that they are, for the most part, justified.
Eventually we just have to call this like we did with GoW. It's like two Protestant denominations arguing with each other over who has the better theology.
Eventually we just have to call this like we did with GoW. It's like two Protestant denominations arguing with each other over who has the better theology.
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@Assalt
You'll have to spell out those standards for me because I'm afraid I don't understand how that makes sense. We can focus on the Aspects as this is an easy example and doesn't require bringing in more feats and characters.
I listed all the feats of the Aspects: Diana, Taric, Pantheon, and Leona. One is calculated to be hypersonic. Three imply hypersonic speeds are wrong. The rest do not require hypersonic speeds to be true. Furthermore the one hypersonic calc is using incorrect information because it states Pantheon jumped down the whole mountain when some of the lore (missing from the calc blog) states said barbarians were not only on the mountai, but later specifies they were high up the mountai, presumably meaning more than halfway up. So the feat by all rights would be halved for distance and thus speed. And to boot it was a jump and landing- not even an actual feat of using the speed in combat.
If Vsbattles is that far into forcing you to prove negative claims, then Vsbattles can admit they're not using actual logic and debate to get these stats. I should not have to prove why characters are not hypersonic when the proof they are "consistently" hypersonic is literally 1/6 (at best) of the feats related to the characters (only the Aspects right now to serve as an example) and to boot some of the other feats directly contradict hypersonic speeds such as Pantheon only managing to dodge the bullet enough for it to scrape the side of his helmet instead of it missing completely.
Are these the standards? That's enough to insist they're "consistently" displaying hypersonic speeds? Do I have that right? Because respectfully- that's not how consistency or data gathering works.
You get all the data and then draw a conclusion, you don't get one bit of data, draw a conclusion from it, and then change all the other data to fit the new conclusion and then say, "How about that- it's consistent!" Of course it is, you just changed all the data to MAKE it be consistent.
You'll have to spell out those standards for me because I'm afraid I don't understand how that makes sense. We can focus on the Aspects as this is an easy example and doesn't require bringing in more feats and characters.
I listed all the feats of the Aspects: Diana, Taric, Pantheon, and Leona. One is calculated to be hypersonic. Three imply hypersonic speeds are wrong. The rest do not require hypersonic speeds to be true. Furthermore the one hypersonic calc is using incorrect information because it states Pantheon jumped down the whole mountain when some of the lore (missing from the calc blog) states said barbarians were not only on the mountai, but later specifies they were high up the mountai, presumably meaning more than halfway up. So the feat by all rights would be halved for distance and thus speed. And to boot it was a jump and landing- not even an actual feat of using the speed in combat.
If Vsbattles is that far into forcing you to prove negative claims, then Vsbattles can admit they're not using actual logic and debate to get these stats. I should not have to prove why characters are not hypersonic when the proof they are "consistently" hypersonic is literally 1/6 (at best) of the feats related to the characters (only the Aspects right now to serve as an example) and to boot some of the other feats directly contradict hypersonic speeds such as Pantheon only managing to dodge the bullet enough for it to scrape the side of his helmet instead of it missing completely.
Are these the standards? That's enough to insist they're "consistently" displaying hypersonic speeds? Do I have that right? Because respectfully- that's not how consistency or data gathering works.
You get all the data and then draw a conclusion, you don't get one bit of data, draw a conclusion from it, and then change all the other data to fit the new conclusion and then say, "How about that- it's consistent!" Of course it is, you just changed all the data to MAKE it be consistent.
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You dont need all the data to be hyoersonic, one hyoersonic feat is good enough as long as it is not contradicted by other showings.
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@Agnaa No because those three feats are immensely casual, as well as the numerous subsonic, subsonic+, and supersonic reaction/combat speed feats in the verse
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@Friendly Pantheon's hypersonic feat does not scale to anyone but himself because it is movement speed via a specific ability rather than combat speed. The other scale to Xayah and Rakan's Hypersonic combat speed feat which is supported by the immensely casual supersonic and subsonic feats int he verse.
You do not need to be the same speed for every one of your feats in order to be listed as a certain speed.
You do not need to be the same speed for every one of your feats in order to be listed as a certain speed.
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Its not even Hypersonic movement speed lol its combat speed, Hypersonic movement speed feats are only for certain characters who have it via certain abilities, like Pantheon and Kled
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Where is the scan showing that they were high on the mountain? If that's the case the feat is incorrect.
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An Antifeat isnt a lower showing of a verse. An antifeat is more like, Superman gets hurt by tier 9 bullets. An Antifeat in this case is if Galio all the sudden moved at Peak Humans speed with much difficulty. The data is not contradicted. Should clarify that. Also, this wiki doesnt use Antifeats.
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I was only going off of Friendlysociopath's post, which said
I thought this meant "Three imply they cannot move at hypersonic speeds", contradicting the data. If I was misled, hypersonic's fine.
Also what do you mean the wiki doesn't use antifeats? If antifeats outweigh high feats then the high feats are considered outliers and are disregarded, that's why Superman isn't 1-A.
| Three imply hypersonic speeds are wrong. |
Also what do you mean the wiki doesn't use antifeats? If antifeats outweigh high feats then the high feats are considered outliers and are disregarded, that's why Superman isn't 1-A.
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They dont move at hypersonic speeds, they just fight at them as the Hypersonic only scales to reactions and combat speed while having multiple extremely casual lower speeds to back it up (IE Pantheon blitzstomping the shit out of an entire group of bandits and casually sidestepping a bullet at the last possible instant)
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