Star Wars Cosmology Revision (Part 1 of 4: Legends Cosmology Overview)

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

so where would Legends Force wielders be then? Cause this sounds like a lot more than just High 6-A and even 5-B, which the planet level justification is getting nuked

We will discuss it more in part 2

 

[god_cat]

so where would Legends Force wielders be then? Cause this sounds like a lot more than just High 6-A and even 5-B, which the planet level justification is getting nuked

I think most high level force users and most jedi in the post rotj timeline should be affected.

 

[LordVader30]

Mortis gods also have Nonduality?

 

[Epyriel]

"While Dooku was drawing on the entirety of the Dark Side's energies, to the point he was described as being "the axis of the universe""
If he was weaponizing the entirety of the Dark Side wouldn't this be way higher than 4-B ?

I would definitely say this is entirely flowery language. It doesn’t say he was drawing on the entirety of the Dark Side, just that he was drawing on the Force. And frankly none of his actual feats come remotely close to even 4-B, let alone the kind of universal power that would be implied from wielding the entirety of a facet of the Force.

Hell, Dooku gets quickly tired from just throwing Kenobi around and none of the Force blasts being thrown about even breach the ship they are fighting in.

 

[Epyriel]

@LordVader28 @god_cat @TegamiBachi25 Also, how do we feel about a 1-C to 1-A key for a Mortis Amped Anakin/Full Potential Anakin?

It definitely seems appropriate to have a Mortis Amped key for Anakin and just copy over whatever tiering we give the Mortis Gods.

Also one more thing I would like to add for the Otherspace scaling:

Otherspace​

Since it is mentioned that Otherspace is “one step removed” from Hyperspace:

Beyond the sane normality of realspace, in a dimension one step removed from the shifting colors of hyperspace, Rebel heroes face a deadly threat from another galaxy.

-Otherspace Adventure Book

While also being held as “between” Realspace and Hyperspace:

Between realspace and hyperspace there existed another reality otherspace. Here, space was slightly warped and light shone less brightly. It was a "pocket" di-mension, filled with things strange, familiar, and deadly. Otherspace became a final resting place for ships lost in hyperspace. Areas were filled with the dark and desolate remains of vessels, floating silently in the void. Only a few spacers had ever heard of otherspace, and fewer still returned from it alive. Otherspace appeared as a cloudy void. Instead of the ebon blackness of space, silver clouds filled the emp-tiness, with dark pinholes where stars should have been. Otherspace was inhabited by the mysterious species known as the Charon.

-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

I think that it should be recognized that Otherspace is one dimension down from Hyperspace. So while Hyperspace should be 6D+ (1-C), Otherspace would be 5D+ (Low 1-C).

 

[LordVader30]

I would definitely say this is entirely flowery language. It doesn’t say he was drawing on the entirety of the Dark Side, just that he was drawing on the Force. And frankly none of his actual feats come remotely close to even 4-B, let alone the kind of universal power that would be implied from wielding the entirety of a facet of the Force.

Hell, Dooku gets quickly tired from just throwing Kenobi around and none of the Force blasts being thrown about even breach the ship they are fighting in.

I completely disagree. The narrative style of Star Wars novels is like this, and this has already been discussed. It is very clear here that Dooku is gathering power from all corners of the universe, and it explicitly states that he is drawing upon the full power of the dark side. There is no flowery language here. By your reasoning, Star Wars characters are significantly downgraded because this is just how Star Wars conveys its storytelling. There is absolutely no embellishment in this context.Additionally, something that confirms this is not a flowery expression is the fact that the energies Dooku drew upon started to weigh heavily on him after a certain point, causing him to become fatigued. This clearly shows that it is absolutely not an exaggerated statement

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

We can have these talks in the next thread, let's finish here first

 

[LordVader30]

We can have these talks in the next thread, let's finish here first

I agree

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Alright. What else needs to be done then ? Do we have enough staff approvals to get at least the Cosmology (not scaling) approved of ?

 

[TegamiBachi25]

Alright. What else needs to be done then ? Do we have enough staff approvals to get at least the Cosmology (not scaling) approved of ?

How much staff member approved so far?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

From rereading the thread only 2 staff approved this.

 

[Epyriel]

Alright. What else needs to be done then ? Do we have enough staff approvals to get at least the Cosmology (not scaling) approved of ?

How much staff member approved so far?

Lephyr and Ovens both agreed to everything so that is most of the way there. Firestorm has also approved half of it.

The only concern is what exactly is being approved, as the OP has changed things but not updated the original post.

 

[Grand_Astartes]

The only concern is what exactly is being approved, as the OP has changed things but not updated the original post.

Very good point.

 

[Xavis10]

Alright. What else needs to be done then ? Do we have enough staff approvals to get at least the Cosmology (not scaling) approved of ?

Two staff of the three required approved I believe, but the odds are looking great.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Lephyr and Ovens both agreed to everything so that is sufficient to approve the revision (you only need 2). Firestorm has also approved half of it.

Lol no

This is a tier 1 revision. Minimum is 3, but it's encouraged to have a very thorough discussion with multiple staff members.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Lol no

This is a tier 1 revision. Minimum is 3, but it's encouraged to have a very thorough discussion with multiple staff members.

Lephyr and Ovens both agreed to everything so that is sufficient to approve the revision (you only need 2). Firestorm has also approved half of it.

The only concern is what exactly is being approved, as the OP has changed things but not updated the original post.

Just to back up what Lephy says here. Since this is a Tier 1 thread, it does require multiple staff members here as stated in the discussion rules.

• The review and approval of content revisions that affect Tier 1 and/or Tier 0 ratings or that are highly controversial should preferably be conducted by a larger number of staff members in order to ensure that all relevant parties are aware of and agree with the proposed changes. It is essential that these revisions are evaluated by staff members who possess a reasonable level of genuine understanding and expertise in these areas in order to maintain the accuracy and quality of the revised material.
• Input from highly respected members of the community, such as experts on the topic, should be taken into consideration when determining the necessary level of review and approval.

 

[Xavis10]

In that case, what appear to be the odds for this revision then?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

In that case, what appear to be the odds for this revision then?

Good so far, but we are waiting on Qaw and Firestorm to see what their stances are on the proposals

 

[Xavis10]

Also, I think the Ones from Mortis should maintain their 1-C tiering for their physical forms (the first post changed it to Low 1-C). Let's not forget there's still Mortis, which was iirc superior to the universe, hyperspace included. May be wrong here though.

I think that Otherspace should retain its 7D scaling as well, being between realspace and hyperspace doesn't really mean much. Plus, more times and prominently than not it is stated as "beyond the shifting colours of Hyperspace" (as per the OP's own scans), which is basically fancy for Otherspace>Hyperspace qualitatively, so yeah.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

First off, Supernatural Encounters is officially licensed. It is available for purchase on Amazon as a very clearly official source of Star Wars lore like many other Legends novels. Nothing about this says "fan-fiction of Star Wars not officially associated with Lucasfilm and/or Disney", and it would be certainly be very illegal to publish such a work for monetary gain. Disney would be very quick to take something like that down, as we know Disney is very very touchy and sensitive about their works, ESPECIALLY Star Wars.

Bro they really made it hard to see that this is star wars. It doesn't even say it on the cover

 

[Epyriel]

Lol no

This is a tier 1 revision. Minimum is 3, but it's encouraged to have a very thorough discussion with multiple staff members.

Ah yes, my bad. I’m use to dealing with lower tier revisions where that isn’t necessary.

 

[god_cat]

And what's the result?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And what's the result?

Just keep waiting, just keep waiting

 

[HammerStrikes219]

And what's the result?

We just waiting on Qaw and Firestorm. Firestorm approved Real Space, Other Space, and Hyper Space rating even though the OP didn’t bother to update their initial post with some additional information coming out.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

We just waiting on Qaw and Firestorm. Firestorm approved Real Space, Other Space, and Hyper Space rating even though the OP didn’t bother to update their initial post with some additional information coming out.

I'm updating it in Part 2.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

I think most high level force users and most jedi in the post rotj timeline should be affected.

The 5-Bs are probably gonna get 5-A due to Sunstar stuff, and the 4-Bs are gonna get either High 3-A or 1-C depending on if Force Storms being High 3-A is approved or not.

 

[god_cat]

The 5-Bs are probably gonna get 5-A due to Sunstar stuff, and the 4-Bs are gonna get either High 3-A or 1-C depending on if Force Storms being High 3-A is approved or not.

But won't Dooku's feat be affected?

 

[StoneKillerz12]

But won't Dooku's feat be affected?

From what I've seen above, it's flowery language and at most would qualify for 5-A, High 3-A via Absorption

 

[god_cat]

From what I've seen above, it's flowery language and at most would qualify for 5-A, High 3-A via Absorption

I don't think it's metaphorical because the dooku, after absorbing all the dark side energies in the universe, would end up exhausted and his body wouldn't be able to handle it.

 

[Epyriel]

I don't think it's metaphorical because the dooku, after absorbing all the dark side energies in the universe, would end up exhausted and his body wouldn't be able to handle it.

Except it never says “all the dark side energies in the universe” nor does it make any mention of him drawing on the Force in some usual way tiring him. Instead, it is reiterated multiple times that he is tiring from conventional application of the Force (like augmenting a kick to knock Kenobi out and blocking against Anakin’s blows). In fact he mentions his age as the cause of him tiring quickly:

[Dooku] used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi’s chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs.

-ROTS Novel

However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man.

-ROTS Novel

The Force seemed to be busy elsewhere, and really, the whole process was entirely mortifying. He was barely able to summon a last surge of dark power before what would have been a disabling impact.

-ROTS Novel

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he’d used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade. He decided he’d best revise his strategy once again. He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony.

-ROTS Novel

In fact the first half of the fight according to the novel involves them throwing chairs and a table back and forth. None of this screams universal power to me. Basing that kind of massive jump in rating compared to any of the actual feats we see from Dooku and his contemporaries seems to be based on extremely flaky grounds.

 

[god_cat]

Except it never says “all the dark side energies in the universe” nor does it make any mention of him drawing on the Force in some usual way tiring him. Instead, it is reiterated multiple times that he is tiring from conventional application of the Force (like augmenting a kick to knock Kenobi out and blocking against Anakin’s blows). In fact he mentions his age as the cause of him tiring quickly:





In fact the first half of the fight according to the novel involves them throwing chairs and a table back and forth. None of this screams universal power to me. Basing that kind of massive jump in rating compared to any of the actual feats we see from Dooku and his contemporaries seems to be based on extremely flaky grounds.

You are wrong about this, it was clearly stated that the power that the dooku provided for himself would sustain him as long as he wanted.


He's old, Anakin thought. Maybe I can just outlast him. But the power of the dark side flowed around him, denying that possibility. The dark side would keep Dooku going for as long as he needed.

-Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

 

[Epyriel]

You are wrong about this, it was clearly stated that the power that the dooku provided for himself would sustain him as long as he wanted.


He's old, Anakin thought. Maybe I can just outlast him. But the power of the dark side flowed around him, denying that possibility. The dark side would keep Dooku going for as long as he needed.

-Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

That is a discrepancy between the junior and senior novels. For the sake of Legends the senior novel takes precedence.
Also notably it is the senior novel in which Dooku hypes himself up as the ‘Axis of the Universe’.

 

[god_cat]

That is a discrepancy between the junior and senior novels. For the sake of Legends the senior novel takes precedence.
Also notably it is the senior novel in which Dooku hypes himself up as the ‘Axis of the Universe’.

ultimately this is also official legends content, is there any evidence that this is primarily or subordinate content?

 

[LordVader30]

Except it never says “all the dark side energies in the universe” nor does it make any mention of him drawing on the Force in some usual way tiring him. Instead, it is reiterated multiple times that he is tiring from conventional application of the Force (like augmenting a kick to knock Kenobi out and blocking against Anakin’s blows). In fact he mentions his age as the cause of him tiring quickly:





In fact the first half of the fight according to the novel involves them throwing chairs and a table back and forth. None of this screams universal power to me. Basing that kind of massive jump in rating compared to any of the actual feats we see from Dooku and his contemporaries seems to be based on extremely flaky grounds.

Dooku's fatigue in any situation does not constitute an anti-feat in any way.When we look at it closely, Dooku is actually drawing all the power the Dark Side can pull from the universe and becoming the center of the universe.

 

[Epyriel]

Dooku's fatigue in any situation does not constitute an anti-feat in any way.When we look at it closely, Dooku is actually drawing all the power the Dark Side can pull from the universe and becoming the center of the universe.

Nowhere in that quote does it state he is drawing all of the power of the Dark Side, only that he is drawing power from throughout the universe (which can be said of literally any application of the Force, as the Force itself permeates the universe and is sourced form all life).

And the idea you hold power on the scale of the universe but are tired out from throwing around chairs, tables and humans certainly seems like anti-feats.

 

[Epyriel]

ultimately this is also official legends content, is there any evidence that this is primarily or subordinate content?

The senior novel by Stover is the one that was overseen by Lucas in coordination with the film, while the Wrede novel was an adaptation for children. Using Leland Chee’s criteria for canonicity (notably officiality, conformity, and visibility) this would place the senior novel as taking precedence.

 

[god_cat]

Stover'ın kıdemli romanı, filmle koordineli olarak Lucas tarafından denetlenen romandır, Wrede romanı ise çocuklar için bir uyarlamaydı. Leland Chee'nin kanoniklik kriterlerini (özellikle resmilik, uygunluk ve görünürlük) kullanmak, kıdemli romanı emsal olarak yerleştirecektir.

Bence hala tatmin edici değil

 

[god_cat]

The senior novel by Stover is the one that was overseen by Lucas in coordination with the film, while the Wrede novel was an adaptation for children. Using Leland Chee’s criteria for canonicity (notably officiality, conformity, and visibility) this would place the senior novel as taking precedence.

and here it is clearly stated that the power he receives from the whole universe and as a result he ages with every blow, this is a factor that he suffers the consequences after doing something.


No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree withthat. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easilythan a new apprentice.He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.Skywalker was all over him.The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of hisreserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without beingcut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was gettingstronger.Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged

-Revenge of the Sith Novelization

 

[LordVader30]

Nowhere in that quote does it state he is drawing all of the power of the Dark Side, only that he is drawing power from throughout the universe (which can be said of literally any application of the Force, as the Force itself permeates the universe and is sourced form all life).

And the idea you hold power on the scale of the universe but are tired out from throwing around chairs, tables and humans certainly seems like anti-feats.

In the second panel, it is explicitly stated that the Dark Side is drawing all the power it can from every corner of the universe.

Also, the person you’re referring to is Obi-Wan and Anakin, and you haven’t provided any other instance of fatigue either—so no, it’s not an anti-feat.

 

[Epyriel]

and here it is clearly stated that the power he receives from the whole universe and as a result he ages with every blow, this is a factor that he suffers the consequences after doing something.


No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree withthat. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easilythan a new apprentice.He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.Skywalker was all over him.The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of hisreserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without beingcut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was gettingstronger.Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged

-Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Nowhere does that imply that he is drawing from the Force in some unusual way that is making him tire faster. It only states that Anakin’s blows is what is forcing him to quickly deplete his reserves.

Also a power drawn from throughout the universe ≠ a universal power.