Immeasurable speed characters updating

[ElixirBlue]

And Sonic, Shadow, and Silver didn’t gain higher dimensional existence from Super Forms, but were able to fight Solaris.

 

[Antoniofer]

That wouldn't be Immeasurable, but rather Omnipresence (Temporal Presence in the case of Solaris, that is way inferior than Omnipresence).

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Solaris is a "transcendent life form that exists in the past, present and future".

From the Speed page (Note 3)

"A being that is not only omnipresent throughout space, but also time, would also be able to react to every attack from a being with normal speed before the opponent would even begin to throw the attack. This is the case because such a being would exist throughout all of time, experiencing past, presence and future at once while not being bound to the normal flow of time."

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, that would be more so Omnipresence or Temporal omnipresence. Seeing everywhere and everything in all time and space at once is more so just advance levels of cosmic awareness. Also, Note 3 might be reworded; another topic to tackle here is on our policy of whether or not having Space-Time Omnipresence grants Immeasurable combat speed and reactions by default.

 

[QuasiYuri]

The whole Immeasurable speed would need to be tackled on some level tbh.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Can someone summarize what exactly are the qualifications for Immeasurable speed or is that still up in the air?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Can someone summarize what exactly are the qualifications for Immeasurable speed or is that discussed up in the air?

I think it's up in the air at the moment.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Solaris is a "transcendent life form that exists in the past, present and future".

The OP said statements like these aren't reliable anymore. Not like it directly states he transcends time, more like an implication.

"A being that is not only omnipresent throughout space,

Solaris isn't Omnipresent through space.

but also time, would also be able to react to every attack from a being with normal speed before the opponent would even begin to throw the attack. This is the case because such a being would exist throughout all of time, experiencing past, presence and future at once while not being bound to the normal flow of time."

Solaris doesn't have one body that exists throughout time. Here it's outright stated that affecting him in the present won't do anything to the other points in time. He doesn't even exist in every point in time only a part of the past, a part of the present and a part of the future. Here Shadow says it might've been possible if Sonic was still there. They can't destroy them all at once unless there's three of them, which further implies he's just part of three points in time not all of it.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Wait, this isn't Early 2019.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Can someone summarize what exactly are the qualifications for Immeasurable speed or is that still up in the air?

As I see it

Being unbound by linear time

Traveling via sheer speed alone (case by case basis)

 

[Antvasima]

As I see it

Being unbound by linear time

Time-travelling via sheer speed alone (case by case basis)

That is pretty much it, yes, but it seems to cause an enormous amount of confusion, even though it is pretty straightforward. Likely due to that different fictions use entirely different rules for this.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

That is pretty much it, yes, but it seems to cause an enormous amount of confusion, even though it is pretty straightforward. Likely due to that different fictions use entirely different rules for this.

Yea, also the description on the speed page is confusing tbh first time I saw it I did not understand anything it said

Maybe putting a little note with something like what u need to reach immesurable or explained simpler in a way most people can understand it.

 

[Antvasima]

I would personally not mind.

@AKM sama

Would this be acceptable, or do you still prefer to delete the speed level?

 

[Agnaa]

I think the problem is sometimes this Immeasurable speed is only Travel Speed and doesn't show any feats it scales to their Reaction+Combat Speed, or sometimes the speed is only gained because they have access to and can travel through a certain realm and they don't have any Immeasurable feats out of said realm.

Neither of these seem like problems to me honestly.

If it's only travel speed, then it's only travel speed. I don't understand why so many profiles seem averse to separating travel speed, combat speed, reaction speed, and attack speed.

Only having that speed within a certain realm is also fine, since that can also just be listed as another speed rating.

 

[Antvasima]

Agnaa seems to make a good point.

 

[AKM sama]

Can someone summarize what exactly are the qualifications for Immeasurable speed or is that still up in the air?

From previous thread, cases like:

• Attacking or finishing an action before you move or start to move
• Being able to react to an attack to your own past/future
• Transcending space & time yourself, independent of any realm or location

Would this be acceptable, or do you still prefer to delete the speed level?

I did not plan to discuss this here since this thread was created for a different purpose but since you asked, the main problem I have with it is that Immeasurable speed rating is often treated as something that is beyond infinite. And that's not true. It simply means what it means, that is, something that cannot be measured. It doesn't have to be beyond infinite for being unquantifiable. It could be literally any value.

Now when some MFTL+ character travels in time via their speed, it doesn't have to be something that is beyond infinite. FTL speed can do that via physics. It can be done by running laps around the Earth faster than the Earth can rotate. It is inconsistently portrayed and we can't measure it but it sure as hell isn't beyond infinite, especially when the character in question already has a normal speed rating such as MFTL+ or something. We assume that their "time traveling speed" does not scale to their normal speed, when in reality, it does. It just means that whatever their normal speed is, it allows them the special ability to travel in time. (Or in cases where the character needs to go a little faster than their normal max speed, it is just an unquantifiable increase.)

In which case, simply listing the ability as time travel (along with higher for speed in some cases) is enough instead of confusing people with slapping another rating on profile that is often interpreted as something much greater. Again, this would be exactly similar to me slapping something like "4-C normally, Unquantifiable via X ability that causes rift in time-space" for AP. First, it leads to believe that this "unquantifiable" ability is something much higher than their normal AP, and second, it is completely redundant.

To provide another example, if a character can use a speed boost to travel in time and can use the same speed boost to fight, the status-quo seems to be that this character can blitz any FTL or MFTL+ character with this speed boost. When in reality, that isn't the case. It's just an unquantifiable speed boost that lets them travel in time which we can't calculate. It should just be rated as higher and they should get the ability of time travel. It should definitely not be assumed that the character can blitz anyone beyond the level that they have normally shown, because that's blatant NLF.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that those are good points.

I just wish that Sera EX was still here to give input, as she was the one instrumental in creating our current standards.

Can somebody ask her for input via Discord please?

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Transcending space & time yourself, independent of any realm or location

Does being able to exist in several dimensions (and move in them) that are separated by space and time grant immeasurable speed if you're there at the same time?

 

[Agnaa]

@AKM I believe that Immeasurable has good reason to be treated as above Infinite. Infinite can move a finite distance in zero time, while immeasurable could do that and more, by being able to move a finite distance into the past.

This next part may be a particularly radical view, but I view SoL in our universe as essentially being what many people would essentially think of as Infinite speed. Moving at that speed requires infinite energy, and has the observer perceiving their entire journey as taking 0 seconds. It is the speed of causality. Within classical physics this is the sort of thing that would only be expected by infinite speed.

This is all a lengthy way to say, I don't think FTL being treated as immeasurable in some series means that immeasurable can't be above infinite. It just means that different pieces of fiction define their "infinite" speed at different levels, some accurate to reality, most inaccurate.

FTL speed can do that via physics. It can be done by running laps around the Earth faster than the Earth can rotate.

I'm not sure if these two statements were meant to be put together, but the latter can absolutely not be done via physics, and is a nonsensical fictional invention.

We assume that their "time traveling speed" does not scale to their normal speed, when in reality, it does. It just means that whatever their normal speed is, it allows them the special ability to travel in time. (Or in cases where the character needs to go a little faster than their normal max speed, it is just an unquantifiable increase.)

In which case, simply listing the ability as time travel (along with higher for speed in some cases) is enough instead of confusing people with slapping another rating on profile that is often interpreted as something much greater.

To provide another example, if a character can use a speed boost to travel in time and can use the same speed boost to fight, the status-quo seems to be that this character can blitz any FTL or MFTL+ character with this speed boost. When in reality, that isn't the case. It's just an unquantifiable speed boost that lets them travel in time which we can't calculate.

Essentially, I only want to assume this sort of thing when the actual verse says or implies that it's done because of the way physics treats that speed, if that makes any sense. There are good, substantive reasons to believe that Immeasurable speed trumps Infinite speed, and thus trumps finite speeds, but not all fictions agree on where that line of physics' "infinite speed" should actually be placed, causing issues with equalization. I think with the way fiction is, by default we should assume that speed with immeasurable properties is immeasurable, rather than just FTL or some arbitrary barrier above FTL set by the author with no implication.

 

[AKM sama]

I believe that Immeasurable has good reason to be treated as above Infinite. Infinite can move a finite distance in zero time, while immeasurable could do that and more, by being able to move a finite distance into the past.

Yes, the cases I mentioned prior are examples of something that is beyond infinite. That's why I am not proposing to change how people treat immeasurable.

I mainly wanted to point out how time travel via speed in scenarios where it's treated as a separate rating than their normal ones does not fit that criteria of being beyond infinite.

This is all a lengthy way to say, I don't think FTL being treated as immeasurable in some series means that immeasurable can't be above infinite. It just means that different pieces of fiction define their "infinite" speed at different levels, some accurate to reality, most inaccurate.

Well, then we simply don't agree on this notion. We have a standard that should be applied to all verses equally to remain consistent. For example, if you can destroy a universe with town level AP in one piece of fiction for whatever reason, we don't rate those characters as universal. We just assume that their supposed universe is smaller and keep them as town level. This is similar. If it's not outright immeasurable speed and just comes from time traveling via speed, we have no reason to assume they are beyond infinite.

 

[Agnaa]

Well, then we simply don't agree on this notion. We have a standard that should be applied to all verses equally to remain consistent. For example, if you can destroy a universe with town level AP in one piece of fiction for whatever reason, we don't rate those characters as universal. We just assume that their supposed universe is smaller and keep them as town level.

I worded things badly there. In a series where FTL characters can time travel, I don't think they should be given Immeasurable.

If it's not outright immeasurable speed and just comes from time traveling via speed, we have no reason to assume they are beyond infinite.

Immeasurable involves time traveling via speed, that's pretty much how it's defined. As long as they're not implied to have it merely by being FTL, or implied to still have a finite speed, then I think characters who time travel via speed should get immeasurable.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

So is like I said about time travel via speed

Case by case basis

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well, then we simply don't agree on this notion. We have a standard that should be applied to all verses equally to remain consistent. For example, if you can destroy a universe with town level AP in one piece of fiction for whatever reason, we don't rate those characters as universal. We just assume that their supposed universe is smaller and keep them as town level.

I worded things badly there. In a series where FTL characters can time travel, I don't think they should be given Immeasurable.

If it's not outright immeasurable speed and just comes from time traveling via speed, we have no reason to assume they are beyond infinite.

Immeasurable involves time traveling via speed, that's pretty much how it's defined. As long as they're not implied to have it merely by being FTL, or implied to still have a finite speed, then I think characters who time travel via speed should get immeasurable.

So is like I said about time travel via speed

Case by case basis

This and this. Treat it as a case by case basis and the issue ends.

If Fiction A suggests FTL or limited speeds are enough to travel through time in their verse, that verse doesn’t qualify for immeasurable. Simple as that.

We wouldn’t put Fiction B or C in the same boat if time and movements in their verses are never given or implied to possess a pre-established standard like Fiction As verse has.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Just a question, but is Nocturne immeasurable speed valid or not?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I'm pretty sure SCP's Broken God/Mekhane should just be omnipresent/nigh-omnipresent instead of possibly some other speed anyway, although I'll need to bring it up with the other SCP folks

 

[Zencha9]

Just a question, but is Nocturne immeasurable speed valid or not?

probably not

 

[00potato]

I would say yes, the statement is clear enough for immeasurable.

 

[Agnaa]

@00potato Your evaluation sounds inconsistent with what I've heard from other people in the thread. Even the OP says that the point of this is to remove characters whose only justification is "transcends/exists beyond space and time", which is exactly what Nocturne's statement is.

I'm not responding to these since I don't know how to evaluate them, I'd appreciate you holding back too so you don't mislead people...

 

[Antoniofer]

If open to suggestion, I would write that the character's needs to accelerate, decelerate, stop and rewind time, not due manipulating time or by fully or partially phase to another pocket dimension, but due being independent of it. Additionally, as a device of "security", Immeasurable speed if one of the character has fulfilled the former requeriment or has an specific power to allows it to somehow keep up with said character.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

As far as I have seen the requirements seem to be

1. Unbound by linear time

2. Being shown/stated to be able to travel thro time freely via sheer speed alone (case by case basis)

 

[Antoniofer]

Is saying "unbound by time" really different than saying "transcend time"?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Unbound by linear time from my understanding is that u are not attached to the rules of linear time or the rules dont fit u but u are still attached to a system of time

Transcend time seem to be just saying u are above the rules and not attached to any of times rules

That's my understanding of them both

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, see, we can't simply write down few words with no further explanation, or will be too vague; writing stuff like "being unbound by time" and nothing else will force users to rely in flavor text and statements open to interpretation.

Since find out Immeasurable speed is not something real (like finding what weight more), we would need to write a serie of requirements.

 

[Agnaa]

Jesus Christ, everyone's giving different lists of requirements for what counts. Can't we just have one reliable person give us a definitive list that isn't walked back by someone else 20 posts later?

Iamunaninmousinthat said the requirements were "Attacks or actions have an effect before they even do them", "Interact with time as though it was a spatial dimension", "Multiple instances of traveling through time via physical movements and not through devices or special abilities (contested)"

TOAAPRESENCE said one of the requirements is "Being beyond/above linear time"

Ionliosite responded and said that a vague statement like that isn't enough, and that the statement needs to imply the ability to move to the past and future with regular movement.

TOAAPRESENCE responded that that's what they meant.

TOAAPRESENCE said twice the requirements are "Being unbound by linear time" and "Time traveling via sheer speed alone (on a case by case basis).

AKM sama said the requirements are "Attacking or finishing an action before you move or start to move" "Being able to react to an attack to your own past/future" "Transcending space and time yourself, independent of any realm or location"

With many of these being partially conflicting, i have no clue what examples I'm familiar with or have seen described are actually allowed or not.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

At this point, we need to have a thread to discuss what Immeasurable Speed in general should be considered as and what the requirements for said speed should be.

With everyone having various different confusions, issues and definitions of what the speed is and how to get it, this has moved beyond simply defining the requirements but now defining the speed itself.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I have not change my point of requirements, just to be clear

My points have always been
1. Unbound by linear time
2. Time travel via speed, case by case basis

 

[Agnaa]

At this point, we need to have a thread to discuss what Immeasurable Speed in general should be considered as and what the requirements for said speed should be.

With everyone having various different confusions, issues and definitions of what the speed is and how to get it, this has moved beyond simply defining the requirements but now defining the speed itself.

From what I heard, it sounds like a thread about this didn't happen too long ago. Ant also doesn't want another one since relevant knowledgeable members have since stopped posting.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

From what I heard, it sounds like a thread about this didn't happen too long ago. Ant also doesn't want another one since relevant knowledgeable methods have since stopped posting.

Should we close the thread then? Or continue with the characters that are in doubt here?

 

[Agnaa]

Chill out. Slow down. We should not unilaterally be making decisions like that. Just relax and we'll wait for other people to comment.

A lot of shit was brought up recently. We don't need to go from "Please give a consistent list of requirements" to "OKAY ARE WE CLOSING THIS THREAD OR ARE WE DISCUSSING THE CHARACTERS?" within 30 minutes after input from only 3 people.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Chill out. Slow down. We should not unilaterally be making decisions like that. Just relax and we'll wait for other people to comment.

A lot of shit was brought up recently. We don't need to go from "Please give a consistent list of requirements" to "OKAY ARE WE CLOSING THIS THREAD OR ARE WE DISCUSSING THE CHARACTERS?" within 30 minutes after input from only 3 people.

I was just asking