Further Guilty Gear Revisions

[Keeweed]

Because it isn’t Johnny’s constant attack speed. We see in bedman’s case he can’t dodge the attack and is stuck by it. Plus the scene with Bedman shows it is specific attacks that do it. Zato doesn’t need to be able to react to the attack he either needs the dodge the pre slash (which he shown in the story to do) or just survive the hit then attack afterwards. He says he can explain it in detail so clearly he knows it from more than just seeing it (since we absolutely know that’s not how he got the information based off the very same sentence).

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Are we going to ignore that Bedman blocked attacks from both Johnny and Chipp? And that Johnny agreed that both Chipp and him together don't stand much of a chance at beating Bedman?
After Leo and Johnny's rapid attacks on Bedman to prevent him from teleporting, only the bed frame's arm previously damaged by Gabriel got cracked. Implying that Bedman blocked the attacks since his much more vulnerable head or body were not targeted.

---

Zato's statement about not being able to see the attack = light speed can mean either:

• A lightspeed attack is something that inherently can't be seen (since light doesn't reach the eye first before the attack arrives, etc. etc.), which is consistent with relativistic.
• An attack fast enough for Zato to be unable to see (Zato is blind, but maybe Eddie sees for him?) is acknowledged to be fast enough to be light speed (instead of Hypersonic or lightning speed, etc.), which is more consistent with relativistic.

 

[Keeweed]

If light speed attacks can’t be seen then Sol won’t be able to see Gamma ray coming to block it. So either Gamma ray contradicts Johnny’s statement or Johnny contradicts gamma ray. Which nukes the feats either way since either gamma ray is light speed and can’t be seen or Johnny’s feat is usable and thus nobody scales to it since it’s faster.

I don’t get your second point. How would Zato failing to react to the light speed attack be support for him being relativistic? He fails to react to it, that’s the problem.

 

[Keeweed]

For Bedman he can’t escape the sea of blades. How strong Johnny is doesn’t matter, the blade swings were faster than Bedman, Chipp also has an entire scene dedicated to outspeeding Bedman so the weaker characters can be faster.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

If light speed attacks can’t be seen then Sol won’t be able to see Gamma ray coming to block it. So either Gamma ray contradicts Johnny’s statement or Johnny contradicts gamma ray. Which nukes the feats either way since either gamma ray is light speed and can’t be seen or Johnny’s feat is usable and thus nobody scales to it since it’s faster.

Not necessarily an issue; If they see the short window where the cannons are about to fire, they can make maneuvers to move their limbs to intercept it at sublight speed while Gamma Ray is moving.

I don’t get your second point. How would Zato failing to react to the light speed attack be support for him being relativistic? He fails to react to it, that’s the problem.

Either the statement is reliable or it is not reliable.

If Zato is basing his statement on the attack being too fast to see and therefore it is light speed, then the statement is unreliable and based on nothing if Zato is so much below light speed to the point that Johnny might as well be compared to sound or to lightning.
If Zato is relativistic then he can argue that an attack too fast for him to see is likely light speed.

For Bedman he can’t escape the sea of blades. How strong Johnny is doesn’t matter, the blade swings were faster than Bedman, Chipp also has an entire scene dedicated to outspeeding Bedman so the weaker characters can be faster.

I am saying that they are not fast enough to target Bedman's actual body, or to actually blitz him since their attacks get blocked by his super-durable frame. Though I agree that they are faster in travel speed.

 

[Keeweed]

“Not necessarily an issue; If they see the short window where the cannons are about to fire, they can make maneuvers to move their limbs to intercept it at sublight speed while Gamma Ray is moving.”

But that’s not what is shown. In the game they just don’t move at all and in the manga they see it coming (so either it contradicts the manga or is just unusable).

Zato’s description doesn’t rely on him reacting to it. He says he can describe it in great detail and needs to stop himself before going on a long tangent. He clearly understands it despite the same sentence saying it was way too fast for him.

I would go on but one of my friends just arrived so I’m going to be busy. Be back later (and I promise I’ll be back by tomorrow at worse)

 

[Ikelaggan]

You got at least more ways than just standing around to intercept a gamma ray

 

[LordGinSama]

This verse is an absolute mess at the moment, High 6-A is unfathomable amounts of nonsense.

Really just seems to be axing scaling based on personal headcanon.

Yet nobody has issues with Fate and DMC scaling being inflated

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yet nobody has issues with Fate and DMC scaling being inflated

Keep this bs out of the thread, thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree about that this thread is a mess, much due to that nobody has been willing to collaborate with me in trying to straighten it out.

We still need somebody to write an easy to understand explanation of the discussion so far and what we need to evaluate here.

 

[Xantospoc]

I agree about that this thread is a mess, much due to that nobody has been willing to collaborate with me in trying to straighten it out.

We still need somebody to write an easy to understand explanation of the discussion so far and what we need to evaluate here.

The main issue is that, as we speak, there is NOT much to collaborate with you when we cannot collaborate with each other. It's agreed that there are characters that DEFINITIVELY scale to High 5-A (link below) , and I am about to make a small list of who

Summary:

• Figure out who scales to the High 5-A calc

People who undoubtedly scale are the following

• Unsealed Justice (who made the feat itself)
• Sol Badguy (defeated Justice)
• Nagoriyuki -Avatar- (fought equally with Sol)
• Slayer -Avatar- (stomped Sol)
• Gabriel (fights Slayer as an equal)
• Restricted Goddess I-No (was beating Ky)
• Xrd and STRIVE Ky Kiske (stomped Sol, defeated Nagoriyuki)
• STRIVE Ramlethal (defeated Nagoriyuki)
• STRIVE Arcade Jack-O (defeated Nagoriyuki) | Story mode Jack-O and Xrd Jack-O scale much lower
• Kliff Undersen at his prime (stalemated Justice multiple times) | Old Man Kliff doesn't scale, as he was stomped by Sealed Justice
• Transformed Valentine (compared to Justice)
• Xrd Dizzy (held off a revived attack from Justice)
• Raven (when Sol first fought him in Overture, couldn't injure him)
• Asuka R. Kreuz (defeated Sol several times with casual ease, even in his Dragon Install mode)
• Ariels (held off Sin, Sol and Ky Kiske at the same time, although Sol couldn't use his full power)
• Enraged Sin (pushed back Ariels, shocking her)
• Inus/Judgement (took the power of a god that gave Sol a tough fight)

There are also a few 'maybes'. I am not sure if we should scale them however, given the circumstances

• I-No - killed Order Sol after he lost to Present Sol, defeated Sol in her own arcade in XX) BUUUUT otherwise I-No doesn't seem a threat even to comparable character (in Accent Core, she claims she couldn't beat him on her own powers and lost to Raven who didn't seem impressed with her fighting style)
• Bedman - dominated a casual, retired and rusty Slayer with less than 8% of his power and held off Sol in his arcade story mode in the Dream World, BUUUT after Gabriel stomps him, Bedman never quite reaches the same level of threat of that first part
• Happy Chaos - He has bullets that straight up injure Sol made out of Nagoriyuki's blade, BUUUT Sol ragdolls him when he gets to land a blow on him and Nagoriyuki is stated by I-No to put a better fight. Doesn't help Chaos never fight quite seriously

There are however, a few more issues, namely

• Figure out where the lower tiers scale, since it doesn't seem that everyone scales to Sol and Judgement

Sol and comparable character tend to go exceptionally easy to the other characters, and they don't have exactly a lot of their own feats. Either we go At Most High 5-A, we look for better feats given the High 6-A from the Megadeth class Gear doesn't seem valid. Or we just scale them to High 5-A by using the maybes.

• Figure out where the verse speed is. MFTL+ seems to be rejected, though the discussion seems to be balancing anti-feats with potential relativistic feats.

The verse has speed feats all over the place.

• Many feats ranging from Subsonic to Hypersonic across the story modes, although we can chalk them up to movement speed
• Light Speed statement from Zato about Johnny's attack, and for Justice's Gamma Ray, although it's not clear if characters can react to the latter or not.
• MFTL+ speed in Justice and Jack'O's instant kill, but they are debatable how canon they are, being strictly gameplay only. I would argue that Justice travelled across the Backyard, but we don't know how much she explored of it.

 

[Antvasima]

So what was the High 5-A feat exactly?

Also, maybe the uncertain scaling cases can get "Possibly High 5-A" then?

What do you think about the above post @LordGinSama ?

 

[Kenny Mccormick 0v0]

Giovanna would be High 5-A since she can block nagoriyuki and sol attack
And toe to toe with nagoriyuki

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And toe to toe with nagoriyuki

Didn't he state he was holding back or something like that? I haven't watched Strive story mode yet, but I was told this was the case.

 

[Keeweed]

You got at least more ways than just standing around to intercept a gamma ray

The ray is instant. None of those moves matter, literally anything the characters do will always be immensely slower than gamma ray because gamma ray instantly goes off the screen in a single frame while all the characters stay within the shot. At the very best (this doesn’t happen, but for absolute high ball) assuming there is a character that can travel across the entire sceen in one frame that is still only moving a couple of dozen feet versus gamma ray (assuming it is light) moving dozens of miles within that time frame (that’s not even how we do calcs like that though, the feat would just be entirely unusable because the beam went off the screen).

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

So what was the High 5-A feat exactly?

The new Gamma Ray calc, which got approved:

justice radiation calc

vsbattles.fandom.com

Didn't he state he was holding back or something like that? I haven't watched Strive story mode yet, but I was told this was the case.

Giovanna defeated him with her transformation and then transforms back exhausted, and then Nagoriyuki defeated her and mentioned that if Giovanna didn't hold back she might've won:

This is all that I am currently capable of. Victory is yours. [...] If you hadn't shown mercy, you might have won.

But that’s not what is shown. In the game they just don’t move at all and in the manga they see it coming (so either it contradicts the manga or is just unusable).

Actually in the cutscene Sol switches to his walking sprite (instead of remaining on his idle sprites) in the one frame where the beam appears and then blocks for the rest of the frames. And if we are excessively taking the cutscene made from gameplay mechanics literally, then the beam has pierced Sol's head in the cutscene for a single frame which is not true.

Zato’s description doesn’t rely on him reacting to it. He says he can describe it in great detail and needs to stop himself before going on a long tangent. He clearly understands it despite the same sentence saying it was way too fast for him.

Cutting himself off makes the statement less reliable, since Zato-One makes a bunch of cryptic random statements describing other characters in term of 'light' and 'dark':

Spoiler: Zato on other cahracters

• Self: "Darkness itself..."
• Sol: "I don't know..."
• Ky: "A shimmering brilliance..."
• May: "It's shining...!"
• Faust: "Ashen..."
• Potemkin: "Dull, but persistent, light..."
• Chipp: "Dazzling...!"
• Millia: "My Millia..."
• Axl: "Somewhat similar to me..."
• Baiken: "Dark...It looks like the depths..."
• Johnny: "Brightness...but...also some shade."
• Venom: "Venom!"
• Jam: "A muddle of the prismatic colors..."
• Dizzy: "Ah... Too bright..."
• Slayer: "It was dark a long time ago..."
• I-No: "I see something quite black..."
• Sin: "A pure white...Beautiful."
• Raven: "Monotone..."
• Bedman: "A powerful light...!"
• Leo: "A charming astringency..."
• Ramlethal: "Achromatic...?"
• Elphelt: "I can't see anything..."
• Jack-O': "Half achromatic... The rest..."
• Haehyun: "Oh... Vibrant..."
• Answer: "A grain of light within shadow..."

So it is more likely that Zato was babbling about Johnny being fast and then randomly dropped the word 'light', rather than saying something insightful.

This verse is an absolute mess at the moment, High 6-A is unfathomable amounts of nonsense.

Really just seems to be axing scaling based on personal headcanon.

Yet nobody has issues with Fate and DMC scaling being inflated

Currently the verse is getting upgraded to High 5-A. Feel free to point out why the current Gamma Ray calc and the old High 6-A Gamma Ray calc are wrong, and if successful there is a good chance for downgrade.

Also not the place to snipe the rating of other verses.
Fyi the arguments for the current Fate and DMC scaling are highly developed and tested, dismissal from a casual and superficial perspective won't be able to offer any meaningful challenge to them.

 

[Keeweed]

I’m a bit busy getting food for my family. I’ll be back soon

 

[LordGinSama]

"Highly developed and tested."


Yeah sure lmfao.

 

[Antvasima]

@LordGinSama

What do you think about Xantospoc's suggestions above?

 

[LordGinSama]

@LordGinSama

What do you think about Xantospoc's suggestions above?

I think it's fair given the current accepted scaling for the verse, I might disagree with the current statics and will likely revise it myself at a later point.

But for the time being what Xan suggest for now works.

 

[Keeweed]

When it comes to Gamma ray it is a heat based attack. As shown by literally every game it’s been in the beginning of the attack doesn’t do damage; and this isn’t referring to the first frame it only starts doing damage once the beam has fully expanded. With even the manga having the fully expanded version being what threatens the characters. The beginning is of the beam is much thinner and dimmer both of which would suggest it’s not as hot. So Sol doesn’t need to block that beginning part, he needs to block its expansion. As shown in game repeatedly because the beam doesn’t deal damage until it expanses and has more energy put into it.

When it comes to Zato: his light speed quote is different from the more flowery ones. The other ones are clearly referring to how he views there character/personality and even then majority of the time there is truth to his words. Meanwhile Johnny’s statement is entirely about speed, with him saying the attack was fast, describing how fast it was, then saying he can describe how it’s that fast. That very different from talking about someone light or dark personality and even then in those instances it makes sense within the context.

 

[Keeweed]

Unrelated to speed, but this has been annoying me. So many characters are missing non physical interaction.

 

[LordGinSama]

Unrelated to speed, but this has been annoying me. So many characters are missing non physical interaction.

Uhh I'd make a separate CRT for abilities tbh. There's a lot I also want to discuss, such as the Master Ghosts Limitation literally being apart of game mechanics and Sol's regeneration.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Uhh I'd make a separate CRT for abilities tbh. There's a lot I also want to discuss, such as the Master Ghosts Limitation literally being apart of game mechanics and Sol's regeneration.

You really can't say it's just game mechanics completely aside from the teleportation resurrection. Cause most of everything with the master ghost is explained in story like creation and summoning or has some type explanation with how magic Further progresses in the series.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Unrelated to speed, but this has been annoying me. So many characters are missing non physical interaction.

Don't tell me, it's either most of xrd cast or anyone that hasn't slapped Zappa's ghosts once in GGAC

 

[Antvasima]

I think it's fair given the current accepted scaling for the verse, I might disagree with the current statics and will likely revise it myself at a later point.

But for the time being what Xan suggest for now works.

Okay. It can probably be applied then. Is somebody here willing and able to edit properly?

 

[Keeweed]

Don't tell me, it's either most of xrd cast or anyone that hasn't slapped Zappa's ghosts once in GGAC

It’s the second one, yeah.

 

[Xantospoc]

Okay. It can probably be applied then. Is somebody here willing and able to edit properly?

I think given the circumstances, we might see another day
also @LordGinSama , I 100% agree about the scaling of certain verses, but even I don't think it's time or the place

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It can probably be applied then. Is somebody here willing and able to edit properly?

So, about this...

 

[Xantospoc]

So, about this...

Give me tomorrow, I wish to enjoy the first of the year to do other things

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Xantospoc]

I am ready. I am proposing two keys for Justice

Sealed / Imitation Series | Full power

Possibly High 5-A (Much weaker than its actual full powered self by an unknown degree. Imitation series copies of Justice were stated to be as powerful as her sealed self) | High 5-A (Her Gamma Ray Bust destroyed the entirety of Japan and released this much of an output)

The following characters scale to Justice at full power, I think their justification in the profile should be kept equal

• Unsealed Justice (who made the feat itself)
• Sol Badguy (defeated Justice)
• Nagoriyuki -Avatar- (fought equally with Sol) [Might get a new Low 1-C key later as his true self]
• Slayer -Avatar- (stomped Sol) [Might get a new Low 1-C key later as his true self]
• Gabriel (fights Slayer as an equal)
• Restricted Goddess I-No (was beating Ky) [requires a new key, should get a new key as Low 1-C at her full power]
• Xrd and STRIVE Ky Kiske (stomped Sol, defeated Nagoriyuki) [requires a new key]
• STRIVE Ramlethal (defeated Nagoriyuki) [requires a new key]
• STRIVE Arcade Jack-O (defeated Nagoriyuki) [requires a new key] Story mode Jack-O and Xrd Jack-O scale much lower
• Kliff Undersen at his prime (stalemated Justice multiple times) [requires a new key] Old Man Kliff doesn't scale, as he was stomped by Sealed Justice
• Transformed Valentine (compared to Justice)
• Xrd Dizzy (held off a revived attack from Justice)
• Raven (when Sol first fought him in Overture, couldn't injure him)
• Asuka R. Kreuz (defeated Sol several times with casual ease, even in his Dragon Install mode)
• Ariels (held off Sin, Sol and Ky Kiske at the same time, although Sol couldn't use his full power)
• Enraged Sin (pushed back Ariels, shocking her)
• Inus/Judgement (took the power of a god that gave Sol a tough fight) [Do we have this guy?]

The following character might get a Likely High 5-A because I am not quite sure myself

• I-No -
• Bedman -
• Happy Chaos -

The rest gets a Possibly High 5-A.

I am ready to do it

 

[Antvasima]

That seems fine to me, but let's wait a bit for input from @LordGinSama , @Keeweed , @Ikelaggan , and the others first.

 

[Kenny Mccormick 0v0]

I am ready. I am proposing two keys for Justice

Sealed / Imitation Series | Full power

Possibly High 5-A (Much weaker than its actual full powered self by an unknown degree. Imitation series copies of Justice were stated to be as powerful as her sealed self) | High 5-A (Her Gamma Ray Bust destroyed the entirety of Japan and released this much of an output)

The following characters scale to Justice at full power, I think their justification in the profile should be kept equal

• Unsealed Justice (who made the feat itself)
• Sol Badguy (defeated Justice)
• Nagoriyuki -Avatar- (fought equally with Sol) [Might get a new Low 1-C key later as his true self]
• Slayer -Avatar- (stomped Sol) [Might get a new Low 1-C key later as his true self]
• Gabriel (fights Slayer as an equal)
• Restricted Goddess I-No (was beating Ky) [requires a new key, should get a new key as Low 1-C at her full power]
• Xrd and STRIVE Ky Kiske (stomped Sol, defeated Nagoriyuki) [requires a new key]
• STRIVE Ramlethal (defeated Nagoriyuki) [requires a new key]
• STRIVE Arcade Jack-O (defeated Nagoriyuki) [requires a new key] Story mode Jack-O and Xrd Jack-O scale much lower
• Kliff Undersen at his prime (stalemated Justice multiple times) [requires a new key] Old Man Kliff doesn't scale, as he was stomped by Sealed Justice
• Transformed Valentine (compared to Justice)
• Xrd Dizzy (held off a revived attack from Justice)
• Raven (when Sol first fought him in Overture, couldn't injure him)
• Asuka R. Kreuz (defeated Sol several times with casual ease, even in his Dragon Install mode)
• Ariels (held off Sin, Sol and Ky Kiske at the same time, although Sol couldn't use his full power)
• Enraged Sin (pushed back Ariels, shocking her)
• Inus/Judgement (took the power of a god that gave Sol a tough fight) [Do we have this guy?]

The following character might get a Likely High 5-A because I am not quite sure myself

• I-No -
• Bedman -
• Happy Chaos -

The rest gets a Possibly High 5-A.

I am ready to do it

Happy Chaos should be at least High 5-A because it's obvious that he is stronger than Asuka in story mode

 

[Xantospoc]

Happy Chaos should be at least High 5-A because it's obvious that he is stronger than Asuka in story mode

Given how in
1) I-No fights Chaos equally in his arcade and is repeatedly stated to be his equal
2) I-No claims Nagoriyuki put on a better fight than Chaos
3) Sol obliterates his arm and slams him down when they fight in story mode, Chaos requiring bullets made of Nago's sword to injure him
4) Asuka keeps molly whopping Sol in a single blow in the story mode, which is consistent with their fights throughout the series in XX and Overture
5) The gameplay shows overall Chaos being a poor fighter

I don't think Chaos is above Asuka power-wise but merely hax wise

 

[Kenny Mccormick 0v0]

Given how in
1) I-No fights Chaos equally in his arcade and is repeatedly stated to be his equal
2) I-No claims Nagoriyuki put on a better fight than Chaos
3) Sol obliterates his arm and slams him down when they fight in story mode, Chaos requiring bullets made of Nago's sword to injure him
4) Asuka keeps molly whopping Sol in a single blow in the story mode, which is consistent with their fights throughout the series in XX and Overture
5) The gameplay shows overall Chaos being a poor fighter

I don't think Chaos is above Asuka power-wise but merely hax wise

1)I mean Asuka is no match for him when he's not hold back


2)In term of speed Happy Chaos can easily blitz Asuka

 

[Antvasima]

That seems fine to me, but let's wait a bit for input from @LordGinSama , @Keeweed , @Ikelaggan , and the others first.

I think that we have probably waited for long enough now. You can start applying the revisions.

Please remember to carefully read through and follow the instructions in our Common Editing Mistakes page, so no badly structured edits are made, and extensive cleanup work will not be necessary.

If you change the statistics for any characters, also remember to update the tier categories at the bottoms of the profile pages.

Also, when you apply this revision, please insert a link to this thread into the small edit summary boxes, so your edits are not mistaken for vandalism.

 

[Xantospoc]

1)I mean Asuka is no match for him when he's not hold back

Chaos is definitively not holding back. If Anything, Asuka is holding back by not using any of his techniques... like the ones he used to one shot Sol. THe only reason he lost is a mix of surprise of having recognized his master and pacific attitude

2)In term of speed Happy Chaos can easily blitz Asuka

He wasn't looking. By the same logic, Ky blitzed Chaos, yet Ky is not > Asuka

 

[Xantospoc]

You can start applying the revisions.

Ok

 

[Xantospoc]

... I tried, profiles are still locked
EDIT: I am sorry, complications on my side will make me unable to answer,edit and debate. Will take a break from the thread