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Greetings everyone,
I have seen I missed the big downgrade of guilty Gear (thank god, given the Absolute World shouldn't have scaled from any potential character). However, I fear there are still inaccuracies all over the profiles, that I have bothered to take note of.
The first of all, I do not agree with the AP chosen for the character, as at least the high-top tiers are superior to this according not to one, but two statements:
ATTACK POTENCY (UPGRADE)
1) The first is Dizzy's arcade intro in Guilty Gear XX 1.5, where there is written the following
Alas, I cannot find a screenshot of the quote, but as my source I am using this link from Gear Project, a lore expert of the series, quoting straight from the source.
This should place either place any character that can take on Dizzy at tier 5-B (as well as Dizzy herself), or we assume Dizzy is holding back so only a few select characters can truly beat her (such as Sol, Ky etc.). This holding back can be seriously argued given how normally in XX Dizzy could barely stand up to I-No to completely obliterating her in one of her paths
This would make Jack-O's Instant Kill (and Jack'O was comparable to Dizzy back in GGX, as they both fought against Jam and lost/tied to her in their arcade modes) plausible, both her moon level explosion and her comment that she could also break the Earth.
Mind you that, according to the GGworld entry of "Gamma Ray" from GG-Strive-, Dizzy's power output at least of this attack is vastly below Justice to herself, which would place the original Mother Gear and who scales above her above.
2) The most ... out of here quote of all of Guilty Gear Xrd at least regarding the character's powers
Given the characters never show such a level of power across the entire story save with a some hax (Ariels being able to black the unlimited energy output of the Saint Oratiorio cannon with her barrier, although she immediately gets blindesided and one shot by Sol afterwards), I think however characters that can scale to Justice's full power require a Possibly 3-B key.
SPEED (DOWNGRADE??)
Most characters scale to Jack'O's feat of 32 trillion times the speed of light. This is all fine and dandy, but issue is, it comes from her Instant Kill, which we have all deemed as bunk (and which is why we don't use Jack'O's moon level AP).
This is also very troubling because we can't even scale the characters to relativistic+, as that came from Bridget's Instant Kill. This is troubling because I have no idea any notable speed feat to scale characters outside Instant Kill.
However...
ARE THE POWERS OF THE INSTANT KILL CANON?
I would argue that, yes, they are. And this is shown in one specific route in Axl Low's story mode in XX
Posting the script I found here
In other words, there is no other way for Axl to win against Sol unless he were to use his Instant Kill to DESTROY him. This could scale those specific techniques also way higher, but seem to prove otherwise the power of the instant kill is possible and canon (unless you chalk it up to game mechanics).
There are other cases where, overall, to use Instant Kill in both X and XX changes the outcome of the battle entirely, for example Millia being able to kill Eddie while both her Ending 1 and Zato-1's ending (as well as future game) contradict this, or her accidentally killing Bridget in XX (all outcomes that can be seen in the links I posted)
If so we have both solid AP feats for Jack-O AND speed for all the cast.
SCALING NOTES (GENERAL REVISION)
IMO, feats such as fighting any high/top tiers, especially ones that are renown to hold back, should be avoided unless we are shown to provide a specific challenge. In other words, things such as Axl Low having as a feat 'fighting Slayer' or Millia fighting a casual Ky should not be used.
Valentine's Key of using the cube should be removed because, in her final boss fight (First Phase, Second Phase, Ending), she is stopped from using it, although she should be given an "Higher with transformations", given that in the final cutscenes it's shown that Paradygm believed only Sol stood a chance against her final form. Also, I am curious about the odd teleports in the flow of consciousness during the second phase of the fight. Do you think they should be counted as a property of the Backyard or a power of Valentine?
1) Which reminds me something VERY important. Justice requires two keys, one for her sealed self and her full power.
Quoting chapter 3 of the digest Guilty Gear comic, which you can read here
This is also why Justice looks so different between the pre-Xrd games and the others.
This is important because it also gives us an important scale to the characters: for example, back in Missing Link, nobody but Sol Badguy could stand up to Justice (as seen in Justice's Accent Core story mode), while in XX a few characters Accent Core, set roughly 3 years after, a few characters (for example Ky and Jam) can dispatch copies created by the Post War Bureau with relative ease.
2) Also, Ky should get a different key also for his post Xrd self, given beforehand Sol moped the floor so hard it was played for laughs, even when Ky was completely enraged and Sol couldn't care less. Then in Xrd a mix of his Gear cells and him going all out showed what he truly was capable of, allowing him to nick the Universal Will in the main story and in the epilogues stomping Sol in a spar for the first time in the entire series .
3) I-No should get two keys as a goddess form: she actively represses herself at the beginning out of fear of losing her own identity. Had she not chickened out, she'd have become, as Ariels called her, a being that surpassed time. Given one of the ingredients of the merging was the Tome of Origins (where the Backyard is sealed), her own power over the timeline and scaling to objects like the Cube's power that can control reality on an universal scale*. Her power in her suppressed God form should afterwards scale to/above Ky
*Nobody else scales to the Cube's power. Besides being entirely hax based. The entire plot of Guilty Gear 2 is to stop Valentine from getting such a power and Sol destroys her before it happens. Afterwards, Asuka takes it back and never uses it again
4) Minor nitpick, but Millia doesn't scale to Zato. At all. In Zato-1's story mode in X, even while he is literally about to die annd struggling with Eddie (and drops dead a few seconds afterwards), Zato is fully capable in handling Millia.
Millia Story Mode (Path 1)
She seems to beat him in her own story mode - Path 2 with an instant Kill, but that one is not canon because she also destroys Eddie, who we know survived the ordeal.
Afterwards, in XX and Accent Core, it's Eddie to take place and he is shown to be much weaker because of Zato's body fully breaking down (stated several times in GGworld and by Eddie's increasing desperation) . Only then Eddie scales to Baiken and can be killed by Millia.
This is given further credence because in Xrd once he is revived, he performs considerably better, impressing Bedman, (in story mode) Ramlethal (SIGN arcade mode), Slayer (REVELATOR Arcade) and Nagoriyuki (STRIVE Arcade), although he never quite becomes a threat to the latter three.
Zato 1 > Zato 1 while barely alive and fighting Eddie for dominance > Millia > Eddie wearing Zato's corpse (and not by much as she loses to him in a few paths)
Bedman SHOULDN'T scale to Sol's full power, not even for a second. In his SIGN arcade mode, he is shown to be ultimately incapable of beating a base Sol, even despite the Dreamworld makes him considerably strong. While he does fare well against Sol (who is a brute that rarely goes all out) and Slayer (who had retired between XX and Xrd and was called out for being out of shape), his performance considerably drops across the remainder of the game
---
And there they are, some important changes in GG which i believe should be applied.
GENERAL CONCLUSIONS
1) Replace the tier of Dizzy as follows
Varies from At Least 6-A (at least as powerful as Sealed Justice and stronger than Testament, but tends to hold back due to her pacific nature) to Possibly 5-B (is stated to be able to tear a planet apart, but we are not given statements of timeframes) | 5-B, Possibly 3-B [Same reasoning as her current profile]
Who scales above Dizzy before Xrd? Sol, Ky, Sin when enraged, Ramlethal in STRIVE, Justice at full power, Slayer, the original Valentine, Ariels, Happy Chaos, Asuka R. Kreuz and Nagoriyuki. Bedman in his dream world. Each and all should have High 6-A replaced with 5-B
2) Make two keys for Justice: Sealed | Full power
At least 6-A (by scaling vastly above any Megadeth class Gear and being at least 40x weaker than the time she vaporized Japan down to the ocean crust) | 5-B (Comparable to Dizzy) Possily 3-B (Her power density was stated to be equivalent to a galaxy cluster, but such a level was never displayed), Low 1-C with Eve's seed [Same reasoning as her current profile]
3) Ky should have 3 keys. Missing Link | From X to Overture | From Xrd onward
At Least 6-A (fought against Sealed Justice enough to be able to have a conversation with her, but ultimately lost) | 5-B (Easily defeats Imitation Series Justice who are as powerful as her sealed self, could have beaten Dizzy but lost on purpose. Defeated Jam, who is comparable to I-No, while poisoned and heavily weakened. Helped fighting off Devil Sin) | 5-B, Possibly 3-B (helped defeat Ramlethal, once his Gear Cells awoke he was able to nick Ariels' arms and fight her off with Sol and Sin, stomped Sol Badguy once he went all out. Was able to defeat Nagoriyuki, who stalemated Sol, in his own arcade mode in Strive), higher with Dragon Install
4) I would suggest Jack-O to have 3 keys too: Xrd | STRIVE | After Calling back her Alternate Personality
At Least High 6-A (could stalemate Jam Kuradoberi and fight off I-No), Possibly 5-B (causes an explosion this big in her Instant Kill while perfectly casual and calm, musing she might destroy Earth next time) Low 1-C with Eve's seed [Same reasoning as her current profile] | Unknown (After losing Juno's scale,she lost most of her superpowers, but was still superhuman, yet refused to engaged in combat throughout the story mode. If she doesn't unlock her other personality Nagoriyuki describes fighting her 'a waste of time') | 5-B, at Least 3-B (Claims to regain her old power back when calling back her alternate personality, defeats Nagoriyuki to the point he declares to be no match to her in her Arcade Mode)
Jack'O, Axl Low, Jam, Bedman and I-No would all scale to this.
5) Instead Ramlethal would have the following keys: Xrd | STRIVE
At Least High 6-A, Possibly 5-B (could stalemate I-No and humilated Potemkin in combat), higher after unlocking emotions (stomped I-No, forcing her to run away, and Jack-O) | 5-B, Possibly 3-B (Defeated Nagoriyuki even when in Blood Rage, while holding back)
6) As for Sol, I'd make a similar last Key after being depowered in STRIVE as the following
Unknown (After having the Flame of Corrupted removed by Asuka he lost most of his powers, but was still superhuman), High 3-A with Saint Oratiorio Cannon (stated to release an infinite output of power)
7) Rewrite Millia as simply comparable to Venom (who defeated Bridget), removing the mention of having killed Zato-1
8) Personal rewrite of I-No: Base | Full Power | Repressed
High 6-A, Possibly 5-B (Defeated Axl Low and Jam, although lost to the latter in a rematch. Killed several weaker version of Ramlethal Valentine until the latest one stalemated her and eventually defeated her, defeated Jack-O Valentine)* | At least Low 2-C (by merging with Happy Chaos, evolved into a being that was stated by Ariels to trascend the concept of time), Low 1-C with hax (wielded the Tome of Origins, that allows to control the Backyard, was created to manipulate it) | 5-B, Possibly 3-B (even while suppressing her full power to avoid losing her own identity, held off Ky Kiske, but was completely obliterated against the Outrage Cannon once it struck her weak spot)
*I-No doesn't scale to Sol: while she almost kills him him in a route of XX, it's contradicted by her losing to much weaker characters such as Jam, getting annihilated by Dizzy's full power, admitting to have no chance against Sol in Accent Core and try to kill him by sneak attacking his weakened past self.
9) Jam would be
High 6-A, Possibly 5-B (Defeated an Imitation series Justice. Axl Low and won her rematch against I-No. Defeated Dizzy in her own story mode, although we don't know how serious Dizzy was, but was strong enough the government believed her when she said she blew Dizzy "into a million pieces". Was able to fight a weakened Ky, although she ultimately lost to him. Stalemated Jack'O in her arcade mode in Xrd)
10) Bedman
At least High 6-A, (humiliated Potemkin but would have been beaten if he knew his powers, held off Johnny and Leo, was superior to Robo Ky and Venom untl the latter used a charged up version of his strongest attack. ), Likely 5-B (Trained Ramlethal before being deployed, Could fight an out of shape casual Slayer using only 8% of his power), Higher in the Dreamworld (defeated a determined Elphelt and Ramlethal in separated occasions, could distract Sol for enough time to delay his meeting with Ramlethal, although he couldn't make proper damage to him, to the point of calling him 'unbreakable'), Low 1-C with the Absolute World [Same reasoning as his page]
---
Thanks for the downgrade, as I am aware most would be at my throat for that. Any thought or comment about my ideas?
I have seen I missed the big downgrade of guilty Gear (thank god, given the Absolute World shouldn't have scaled from any potential character). However, I fear there are still inaccuracies all over the profiles, that I have bothered to take note of.
The first of all, I do not agree with the AP chosen for the character, as at least the high-top tiers are superior to this according not to one, but two statements:
ATTACK POTENCY (UPGRADE)
1) The first is Dizzy's arcade intro in Guilty Gear XX 1.5, where there is written the following
Alas, I cannot find a screenshot of the quote, but as my source I am using this link from Gear Project, a lore expert of the series, quoting straight from the source.
This should place either place any character that can take on Dizzy at tier 5-B (as well as Dizzy herself), or we assume Dizzy is holding back so only a few select characters can truly beat her (such as Sol, Ky etc.). This holding back can be seriously argued given how normally in XX Dizzy could barely stand up to I-No to completely obliterating her in one of her paths
This would make Jack-O's Instant Kill (and Jack'O was comparable to Dizzy back in GGX, as they both fought against Jam and lost/tied to her in their arcade modes) plausible, both her moon level explosion and her comment that she could also break the Earth.
Mind you that, according to the GGworld entry of "Gamma Ray" from GG-Strive-, Dizzy's power output at least of this attack is vastly below Justice to herself, which would place the original Mother Gear and who scales above her above.
2) The most ... out of here quote of all of Guilty Gear Xrd at least regarding the character's powers
Given the characters never show such a level of power across the entire story save with a some hax (Ariels being able to black the unlimited energy output of the Saint Oratiorio cannon with her barrier, although she immediately gets blindesided and one shot by Sol afterwards), I think however characters that can scale to Justice's full power require a Possibly 3-B key.
SPEED (DOWNGRADE??)
Most characters scale to Jack'O's feat of 32 trillion times the speed of light. This is all fine and dandy, but issue is, it comes from her Instant Kill, which we have all deemed as bunk (and which is why we don't use Jack'O's moon level AP).
This is also very troubling because we can't even scale the characters to relativistic+, as that came from Bridget's Instant Kill. This is troubling because I have no idea any notable speed feat to scale characters outside Instant Kill.
However...
ARE THE POWERS OF THE INSTANT KILL CANON?
I would argue that, yes, they are. And this is shown in one specific route in Axl Low's story mode in XX
Posting the script I found here
In other words, there is no other way for Axl to win against Sol unless he were to use his Instant Kill to DESTROY him. This could scale those specific techniques also way higher, but seem to prove otherwise the power of the instant kill is possible and canon (unless you chalk it up to game mechanics).
There are other cases where, overall, to use Instant Kill in both X and XX changes the outcome of the battle entirely, for example Millia being able to kill Eddie while both her Ending 1 and Zato-1's ending (as well as future game) contradict this, or her accidentally killing Bridget in XX (all outcomes that can be seen in the links I posted)
If so we have both solid AP feats for Jack-O AND speed for all the cast.
SCALING NOTES (GENERAL REVISION)
IMO, feats such as fighting any high/top tiers, especially ones that are renown to hold back, should be avoided unless we are shown to provide a specific challenge. In other words, things such as Axl Low having as a feat 'fighting Slayer' or Millia fighting a casual Ky should not be used.
Valentine's Key of using the cube should be removed because, in her final boss fight (First Phase, Second Phase, Ending), she is stopped from using it, although she should be given an "Higher with transformations", given that in the final cutscenes it's shown that Paradygm believed only Sol stood a chance against her final form. Also, I am curious about the odd teleports in the flow of consciousness during the second phase of the fight. Do you think they should be counted as a property of the Backyard or a power of Valentine?
1) Which reminds me something VERY important. Justice requires two keys, one for her sealed self and her full power.
Quoting chapter 3 of the digest Guilty Gear comic, which you can read here
This is also why Justice looks so different between the pre-Xrd games and the others.
This is important because it also gives us an important scale to the characters: for example, back in Missing Link, nobody but Sol Badguy could stand up to Justice (as seen in Justice's Accent Core story mode), while in XX a few characters Accent Core, set roughly 3 years after, a few characters (for example Ky and Jam) can dispatch copies created by the Post War Bureau with relative ease.
2) Also, Ky should get a different key also for his post Xrd self, given beforehand Sol moped the floor so hard it was played for laughs, even when Ky was completely enraged and Sol couldn't care less. Then in Xrd a mix of his Gear cells and him going all out showed what he truly was capable of, allowing him to nick the Universal Will in the main story and in the epilogues stomping Sol in a spar for the first time in the entire series .
3) I-No should get two keys as a goddess form: she actively represses herself at the beginning out of fear of losing her own identity. Had she not chickened out, she'd have become, as Ariels called her, a being that surpassed time. Given one of the ingredients of the merging was the Tome of Origins (where the Backyard is sealed), her own power over the timeline and scaling to objects like the Cube's power that can control reality on an universal scale*. Her power in her suppressed God form should afterwards scale to/above Ky
*Nobody else scales to the Cube's power. Besides being entirely hax based. The entire plot of Guilty Gear 2 is to stop Valentine from getting such a power and Sol destroys her before it happens. Afterwards, Asuka takes it back and never uses it again
4) Minor nitpick, but Millia doesn't scale to Zato. At all. In Zato-1's story mode in X, even while he is literally about to die annd struggling with Eddie (and drops dead a few seconds afterwards), Zato is fully capable in handling Millia.
Millia Story Mode (Path 1)
She seems to beat him in her own story mode - Path 2 with an instant Kill, but that one is not canon because she also destroys Eddie, who we know survived the ordeal.
Afterwards, in XX and Accent Core, it's Eddie to take place and he is shown to be much weaker because of Zato's body fully breaking down (stated several times in GGworld and by Eddie's increasing desperation) . Only then Eddie scales to Baiken and can be killed by Millia.
This is given further credence because in Xrd once he is revived, he performs considerably better, impressing Bedman, (in story mode) Ramlethal (SIGN arcade mode), Slayer (REVELATOR Arcade) and Nagoriyuki (STRIVE Arcade), although he never quite becomes a threat to the latter three.
Zato 1 > Zato 1 while barely alive and fighting Eddie for dominance > Millia > Eddie wearing Zato's corpse (and not by much as she loses to him in a few paths)
Bedman SHOULDN'T scale to Sol's full power, not even for a second. In his SIGN arcade mode, he is shown to be ultimately incapable of beating a base Sol, even despite the Dreamworld makes him considerably strong. While he does fare well against Sol (who is a brute that rarely goes all out) and Slayer (who had retired between XX and Xrd and was called out for being out of shape), his performance considerably drops across the remainder of the game
- Gets pushed back by Zato-ONE, and leaves when he figures out his tricks
- Gets one shot by Gabriel, who is actually comparable to Sol and Slayer
- While he defeats a mentally strained Elphelt and pushes back Jack-O, he panics as soon as Jack-O figures out how to beat him and leaves
- He is driven off by Leo and Johnny working together (reminder Leo is below a casual Elphelt, who Bedman defeated in the dreamworld)
- He is beaten by the joint effort of Robo Ky and Venom, neither of whom are even close to being top tiers, although they do push themselves beyond their limits
- Furthermore, Potemkin is stated to be able to defeat Bedman had he known the secret behind his powers
- Is dominated by Ariels until he uses the Absolute World
---
And there they are, some important changes in GG which i believe should be applied.
GENERAL CONCLUSIONS
1) Replace the tier of Dizzy as follows
Varies from At Least 6-A (at least as powerful as Sealed Justice and stronger than Testament, but tends to hold back due to her pacific nature) to Possibly 5-B (is stated to be able to tear a planet apart, but we are not given statements of timeframes) | 5-B, Possibly 3-B [Same reasoning as her current profile]
Who scales above Dizzy before Xrd? Sol, Ky, Sin when enraged, Ramlethal in STRIVE, Justice at full power, Slayer, the original Valentine, Ariels, Happy Chaos, Asuka R. Kreuz and Nagoriyuki. Bedman in his dream world. Each and all should have High 6-A replaced with 5-B
2) Make two keys for Justice: Sealed | Full power
At least 6-A (by scaling vastly above any Megadeth class Gear and being at least 40x weaker than the time she vaporized Japan down to the ocean crust) | 5-B (Comparable to Dizzy) Possily 3-B (Her power density was stated to be equivalent to a galaxy cluster, but such a level was never displayed), Low 1-C with Eve's seed [Same reasoning as her current profile]
3) Ky should have 3 keys. Missing Link | From X to Overture | From Xrd onward
At Least 6-A (fought against Sealed Justice enough to be able to have a conversation with her, but ultimately lost) | 5-B (Easily defeats Imitation Series Justice who are as powerful as her sealed self, could have beaten Dizzy but lost on purpose. Defeated Jam, who is comparable to I-No, while poisoned and heavily weakened. Helped fighting off Devil Sin) | 5-B, Possibly 3-B (helped defeat Ramlethal, once his Gear Cells awoke he was able to nick Ariels' arms and fight her off with Sol and Sin, stomped Sol Badguy once he went all out. Was able to defeat Nagoriyuki, who stalemated Sol, in his own arcade mode in Strive), higher with Dragon Install
4) I would suggest Jack-O to have 3 keys too: Xrd | STRIVE | After Calling back her Alternate Personality
At Least High 6-A (could stalemate Jam Kuradoberi and fight off I-No), Possibly 5-B (causes an explosion this big in her Instant Kill while perfectly casual and calm, musing she might destroy Earth next time) Low 1-C with Eve's seed [Same reasoning as her current profile] | Unknown (After losing Juno's scale,she lost most of her superpowers, but was still superhuman, yet refused to engaged in combat throughout the story mode. If she doesn't unlock her other personality Nagoriyuki describes fighting her 'a waste of time') | 5-B, at Least 3-B (Claims to regain her old power back when calling back her alternate personality, defeats Nagoriyuki to the point he declares to be no match to her in her Arcade Mode)
Jack'O, Axl Low, Jam, Bedman and I-No would all scale to this.
5) Instead Ramlethal would have the following keys: Xrd | STRIVE
At Least High 6-A, Possibly 5-B (could stalemate I-No and humilated Potemkin in combat), higher after unlocking emotions (stomped I-No, forcing her to run away, and Jack-O) | 5-B, Possibly 3-B (Defeated Nagoriyuki even when in Blood Rage, while holding back)
6) As for Sol, I'd make a similar last Key after being depowered in STRIVE as the following
Unknown (After having the Flame of Corrupted removed by Asuka he lost most of his powers, but was still superhuman), High 3-A with Saint Oratiorio Cannon (stated to release an infinite output of power)
7) Rewrite Millia as simply comparable to Venom (who defeated Bridget), removing the mention of having killed Zato-1
8) Personal rewrite of I-No: Base | Full Power | Repressed
High 6-A, Possibly 5-B (Defeated Axl Low and Jam, although lost to the latter in a rematch. Killed several weaker version of Ramlethal Valentine until the latest one stalemated her and eventually defeated her, defeated Jack-O Valentine)* | At least Low 2-C (by merging with Happy Chaos, evolved into a being that was stated by Ariels to trascend the concept of time), Low 1-C with hax (wielded the Tome of Origins, that allows to control the Backyard, was created to manipulate it) | 5-B, Possibly 3-B (even while suppressing her full power to avoid losing her own identity, held off Ky Kiske, but was completely obliterated against the Outrage Cannon once it struck her weak spot)
*I-No doesn't scale to Sol: while she almost kills him him in a route of XX, it's contradicted by her losing to much weaker characters such as Jam, getting annihilated by Dizzy's full power, admitting to have no chance against Sol in Accent Core and try to kill him by sneak attacking his weakened past self.
9) Jam would be
High 6-A, Possibly 5-B (Defeated an Imitation series Justice. Axl Low and won her rematch against I-No. Defeated Dizzy in her own story mode, although we don't know how serious Dizzy was, but was strong enough the government believed her when she said she blew Dizzy "into a million pieces". Was able to fight a weakened Ky, although she ultimately lost to him. Stalemated Jack'O in her arcade mode in Xrd)
10) Bedman
At least High 6-A, (humiliated Potemkin but would have been beaten if he knew his powers, held off Johnny and Leo, was superior to Robo Ky and Venom untl the latter used a charged up version of his strongest attack. ), Likely 5-B (Trained Ramlethal before being deployed, Could fight an out of shape casual Slayer using only 8% of his power), Higher in the Dreamworld (defeated a determined Elphelt and Ramlethal in separated occasions, could distract Sol for enough time to delay his meeting with Ramlethal, although he couldn't make proper damage to him, to the point of calling him 'unbreakable'), Low 1-C with the Absolute World [Same reasoning as his page]
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Thanks for the downgrade, as I am aware most would be at my throat for that. Any thought or comment about my ideas?
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