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Immeasurable speed characters updating

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I already and DT explained further, it's someone who physically perceives at least one temporal dimension as a spatial dimension they can roam around freely in.
 
I’m not understanding this. If your reaching a higher dimensional world with sheer speed, why would things like Distance be required?

Because presumably the realms aren't in the exact same location. If they are then accessing it isn't a speed feat, it'd probably be something about perspective or physiology.

It’s still transcending time and space

??????????????????????

Since when does accessing a higher-D realm require transcending time and space?

Even then, the OP literally said that this thread was created to remove characters whose only justification was "transcending time and space", as that doesn't qualify you for immeasurable.

Just like moving through linear time with speed alone doesn’t, yet some here advocate for it require esoteric speeds on case by case basis’s?

It does tho.

And if anything the default be the other way around, that you need to prove it isn’t isnt required.

Bullshit. There is absolutely no reason for that to be our default assumption.

Yes and this is kind of why me and a few others suggested we have to a thread to discuss what immeasurable speed should actually be in the first place or else we can’t get the requirement for it set clearly.

And multiple other people have already said why they don't want threads like that.

You going around stating blatantly incorrect things that have already been corrected in this thread does not mean we need a new thread.
 
For starters, Infinite speed is a character who's so fast, they move faster than time can flow period. The character perceives every finite speed object as completely frozen and it takes 0 time for them to react to any non infinite speed object or to travel any finite speed distance. But they can also perform and infinite number of actions or travel infinite distance within a finite amount of time. And perception of time basically only flows when the infinite speed character lets it flow.
But Immeasurable speed is far beyond even that. They also perceive all infinite speed things as frozen, and they can also travel forward and backward in time at will. They can basically hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time and any period in between as casually as anyone can roll their eyes left or right. And this also means their reactions speeds are faster than instantaneous. They can dodge an attack that already has been struct, or they can strike someone even before they launched in attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed.
 
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Agnaa said:
Because presumably the realms aren't in the exact same location. If they are then accessing it isn't a speed feat, it'd probably be something about perspective or physiology.
Click to expand...
Being in the same location or not shouldn’t matter since these realms simply exist beyond the lower ones in any given cosmology with higher dimensions.
Agnaa said:
It’s still transcending time and space

??????????????????????

Since when does accessing a higher-D realm require transcending time and space?
Click to expand...
Uh, last I checked, actual higher dimensions usually always transcended time and space? So, always? Unless im missing something here.
Agnaa said:
Even then, the OP literally said that this thread was created to remove characters whose only justification was "transcending time and space", as that doesn't qualify you for immeasurable.
Click to expand...
You mean vague statements of space-time transcendence without actual context for them. Which my particular case of what I’m asking clearly doesn’t fall under that.

Also, I’m only asking about my case since a whole plethora of questions about immeasurable speed in general were asked and talked about here.

>It does tho.

And like others above
have tried explaining, I don’t agree.
Agnaa said:
And if anything the default be the other way around, that you need to prove it isn’t isnt required.

Bullshit. There is absolutely no reason for that to be our default assumption.
Click to expand...
Besides it being a higher d realm which, as far as I’ve always perceived it here for this site, transcends time and space?

And refer to the earlier discussions with linear time movement. As someone above
put it, a verse shouldn’t be disqualified from immeasurable speed if it doesn’t treat finite movement like FTL speeds as good enough to do the feat. So this shouldn’t be any different.


Agnaa said:
And multiple other people have already said why they don't want threads like that.
Click to expand...
With, no offense, weak reasonings. The speed needs to
be clearly defined
before actual requirements can be set for it. And as of now, that isn’t the case when even staff themselves aren’t entirely on the same page.

You going around stating blatantly incorrect things that have already been corrected in this thread does not mean we need a new thread.
Click to expand...

Which is according to you.
 
Well then...that’s interesting to know to say the least.

So then what if you can prove a higher d world does transcend space-time, and you can travel to it with sheer speeds?
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
But Immeasurable speed is far beyond even that. They also perceive all infinite speed things as frozen, and they can also travel forward and backward in time at will. They can basically hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time and any period in between as casually as anyone can roll their eyes left or right. And this also means their reactions speeds are faster than instantaneous. They can dodge an attack that already has been struct, or they can strike someone even before they launched in attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed.
Click to expand...
i get this part my question is what about when someone is stated to not be bound by linear time

for example linear time is past, present and future u are bound meaning u always go on a straight line but if u are unbound and can go from past to present or future as u please would this count as well?
 
Being in the same location or not shouldn’t matter since these realms simply exist beyond the lower ones in any given cosmology with higher dimensions.

If distance doesn't matter, neither does speed, so idk why you're bringing them up for a speed discussion.

Uh, last I checked, actual higher dimensions usually always transcended time and space? So, always? Unless im missing something here.

That's wrong, as Ion covered.

You mean vague statements of space-time transcendence without actual context for them. Which my particular case of what I’m asking clearly doesn’t fall under that.

Cases I talked about and explained the context of were still dismissed because space-time transcendence isn't enough.

Besides it being a higher d realm which, as far as I’ve always perceived it here for this site, transcends time and space?

Again, nope.

And refer to the earlier discussions with linear time movement. As someone above put it, a verse shouldn’t be disqualified from immeasurable speed if it doesn’t treat finite movement like FTL speeds as good enough to do the feat. So this shouldn’t be any different.

I do not understand this analogy.

"Some verses don't treat FTL speeds as Immeasurable. They shouldn't be disqualified from getting Immeasurable because of this. Therefore traveling to a higher-D realm is Immeasurable."

So then what if you can prove a higher d world does transcend space-time, and you can travel to it with sheer speeds?

Like I said before, I think that's unquantifiable for many reasons. Maybe you could use it as a supporting feat tho.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
But Immeasurable speed is far beyond even that. They also perceive all infinite speed things as frozen, and they can also travel forward and backward in time at will. They can basically hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time and any period in between as casually as anyone can roll their eyes left or right. And this also means their reactions speeds are faster than instantaneous. They can dodge an attack that already has been struct, or they can strike someone even before they launched in attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed.
Click to expand...

What character has been specifically shown to be able to do all that? And I'm not talking theoretically, like has on paper example of doing all that?
 
Agnaa said:
Being in the same location or not shouldn’t matter since these realms simply exist beyond the lower ones in any given cosmology with higher dimensions.

If distance doesn't matter, neither does speed, so idk why you're bringing them up for a speed discussion.
Click to expand...
Because Distance not mattering doesn’t mean speed doesn’t. The point here being that in this case, your speed isn’t bound by time and space because your transcending it (provided the realm is proven to do that via Ion clearing things up now). Thus, immeasurable speed.
Agnaa said:
Cases I talked about and explained the context of were still dismissed because space-time transcendence isn't enough.
Click to expand...
Okay and I don’t agree with that. If moving freely through linear time with speed can get immeasurable, traveling to a higher d realm that’s proven to transcend space-time with sheer speed should grant the same thing.
Agnaa said:
And refer to the earlier discussions with linear time movement. As someone above put it, a verse shouldn’t be disqualified from immeasurable speed if it doesn’t treat finite movement like FTL speeds as good enough to do the feat. So this shouldn’t be any different.

I do not understand this analogy.

"Some verses don't treat FTL speeds as Immeasurable. They shouldn't be disqualified from getting Immeasurable because of this. Therefore traveling to a higher-D realm is Immeasurable."
Click to expand...
The point I made here is that if a verse doesn’t treat FTL or any finite movement as good enough to do a feat that’s technically immeasurable and can qualify for immeasurable soeeds

Then a verse that doesn’t treat finite speeds good enough to move into a higher space-time transcending dimension should also be able to qualify for immeasurable by the same logic.


Agnaa said:
Like I said before, I think that's unquantifiable for many reasons. Maybe you could use it as a supporting feat tho.
Click to expand...
Infinite and Immeasurable speeds in general aren’t quantifiable speeds, so I’m not sure why it being unquantifiable stops it for being immeasurable.
 
Because Distance not mattering doesn’t mean speed doesn’t.

Distance is half of the equation. If there's no distance being moved, it does not require any speed. If there's a finite distance being moved, it requires finite speed. If there's an infinite distance being moved, it requires infinite speed, etc.

The point here being that in this case, your speed isn’t bound by time and space because your transcending it (provided the realm is proven to do that via Ion clearing things up now). Thus, immeasurable speed.

Again, immeasurable speed isn't achieved by transcending space and time. Characters from verses like Digimon have statements like that as supporting them physically traveling through the past, present, and future via speed alone. SCP was seemingly rejected despite having time being a useless concept to the gods due to the scope of their existence.

Okay and I don’t agree with that. If moving freely through linear time with speed can get immeasurable, traveling to a higher d realm that’s proven to transcend space-time with sheer speed should grant the same thing.

You disagree with our threads that established these standards. Cool. That doesn't mean you get to impose your own standards when we're trying to enforce what we've agreed upon.

The point I made here is that if a verse doesn’t treat FTL or any finite movement as good enough to do a feat that’s technically immeasurable and can qualify for immeasurable soeeds

Then a verse that doesn’t treat finite speeds good enough to move into a higher space-time transcending dimension should also be able to qualify for immeasurable by the same logic.

If a verse says that finite speeds aren't enough to move into "higher space-time transcending dimensions" then that doesn't mean they have immeasurable speed, it means they have infinite speed. These are not the same standards, the FTL stuff is completely unrelated.

Infinite and Immeasurable speeds in general aren’t quantifiable speeds, so I’m not sure why it being unquantifiable stops it for being immeasurable.

Unquantifiable does not mean infinite/greater than infinite. It means "We don't know what it is, it could be anywhere within the finite range, it could be infinite, it could be immeasurable. Since it could be absolutely anything it's unusable as a feat without further context."
 
Since this thread is already here

The Spirit of Eternity Sword: Characters should just be unknown in speed now since don't think it's valid anymore, timeless void revisions makes existing in the root which has no concept of time, not an immeasurable feat, neither is existing outside of time (i think).

I do remember characters from the first game having some relativistic+ feats and Et Ca Repha is able to attack with the light of the literal stars, so they do have speed feats to scale to, however wanna play back through everything before ironing anything out, especially since i only did like 1 or 2 route of the original since the VN is well over 50+ hours long. And the 2nd game is also well over 50+ hours long.

11 Eyes: Was gonna make a separate thread discussing other things too but since this is already open, might as well. Wasn't too sure if Demigure and Kukuri's speed was still legit Immeasurable.

Gods like them are observers to reality, they observe the world from outside it. This outside means literally outside it, and they also don't even exist within time.

In addition they see all of time, and control it, allowing them to control the past, present and the future. As Kukuri puts it, the world becomes what she envisions, she intentionally directs her observation to the past, so she doesn't make the future of humans predetermined.

Also relooking at the scene, seems to me it was basically implied Kukuri was travelling around fixing time, it's directly stated she "begun to fix the fabric of time" and we see her moving around saying may all be well, which is what she says when she makes the world become what she envisions, so Immeasurable might be still legit with that.
 
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Agnaa said:
Because Distance not mattering doesn’t mean speed doesn’t.

Distance is half of the equation. If there's no distance being moved, it does not require any speed. If there's a finite distance being moved, it requires finite speed. If there's an infinite distance being moved, it requires infinite speed, etc.
Click to expand...
Okay and for Immeasurable?
Agnaa said:
The point here being that in this case, your speed isn’t bound by time and space because your transcending it (provided the realm is proven to do that via Ion clearing things up now). Thus, immeasurable speed.

Again, immeasurable speed isn't achieved by transcending space and time. Characters from verses like Digimon have statements like that as supporting them physically traveling through the past, present, and future via speed alone.
Click to expand...
Yes and that’s exactly why I’m arguing higher dimensional space-time transcendence done freely should definitely qualify for immeasurable speeds

Going beyond time all together freely should be far superior to simply moving through time freely is what I’m trying to say here. Saying otherwise makes no sense.

Agnaa said:
Okay and I don’t agree with that. If moving freely through linear time with speed can get immeasurable, traveling to a higher d realm that’s proven to transcend space-time with sheer speed should grant the same thing.

You disagree with our threads that established these standards. Cool. That doesn't mean you get to impose your own standards when we're trying to enforce what we've agreed upon.
Click to expand...
Nice job of putting words in my mouth. I’m not imposing anything here, I’m calling out something I see is a flaw that makes, as I said above, absolutely no sense and hasn’t been properly explained yet.

You can’t say freely moving through time grants something that moving beyond it freely all together isn’t able to accomplish. Not without good reasoning, and so far,
I haven’t seen this brought here.


Agnaa said:
Then a verse that doesn’t treat finite speeds good enough to move into a higher space-time transcending dimension should also be able to qualify for immeasurable by the same logic.

If a verse says that finite speeds aren't enough to move into "higher space-time transcending dimensions" then that doesn't mean they have immeasurable speed, it means they have infinite speed.
Click to expand...
No because that’s not how infinite speed works. If the verse doesn’t acknowledge finite speeds can do what’s technically an immeasurable speed feat, then the feat is simply immeasurable for lack of another option.

These are not the same standards, the FTL stuff is completely unrelated.
Click to expand...

The logic behind it is not. It’s fairly simple as someone suggested above.

FTL speeds traveling through time freely = Verse isnt immeasurable

FTL speeds not acknowledged to travel through time = the verse can try qualifying for immeasurable via freely traveling through time.

My point on this is that if the verse doesn’t acknowledge finite speed being good enough to transcend space-time, then freely transcending space-time with Speed should be arguable for immeasurable.

Agnaa said:
Infinite and Immeasurable speeds in general aren’t quantifiable speeds, so I’m not sure why it being unquantifiable stops it for being immeasurable.

Unquantifiable does not mean infinite/greater than infinite. It means "We don't know what it is, it could be anywhere within the finite range, it could be infinite, it could be immeasurable. Since it could be absolutely anything it's unusable as a feat without further context."
Click to expand...
It also doesn’t mean it can’t be greater than them either.
 
Ok I’m finally done with school stuff for the time being, so correct me if I’m wrong, but the statement alone of transcending time and space isn’t enough for immeasurable right? There has to be legit evidence of time travel through movement for the statement of transcending time and space to be a legit immeasurable speed feat?
 
Theglassman12 said:
Ok I’m finally done with school stuff for the time being, so correct me if I’m wrong, but the statement alone of transcending time and space isn’t enough for immeasurable right? There has to be legit evidence of time travel through movement for the statement of transcending time and space to be a legit immeasurable speed feat?
Click to expand...
Seems like it? Tho I would personaly add the whole unbound stuff
 
Okay and for Immeasurable?

For immeasurable it requires the time part being wack.

... I think I see your point here now, my bad.

Yes and that’s exactly why I’m arguing higher dimensional space-time transcendence done freely should definitely qualify for immeasurable speeds

Going beyond time all together freely should be far superior to simply moving through time freely is what I’m trying to say here. Saying otherwise makes no sense.

People disagreed with that in the past iirc. I don't remember their reasons as I wasn't there, I can only say what the standards are now.

Nice job of putting words in my mouth. I’m not imposing anything here, I’m calling out something I see is a flaw that makes, as I said above, absolutely no sense and hasn’t been properly explained yet. You can’t say freely moving through time grants something that moving beyond it freely all together isn’t able to accomplish. Not without good reasoning, and so far, I haven’t seen this brought here.

Yeah I wasn't in those threads so I can't help you out with the why.

No because that’s not how infinite speed works. If the verse doesn’t acknowledge finite speeds can do what’s technically an immeasurable speed feat, then the feat is simply immeasurable for lack of another option.

The logic behind it is not. It’s fairly simple as someone suggested above.

FTL speeds traveling through time freely = Verse isnt immeasurable

FTL speeds not acknowledged to travel through time = the verse can try qualifying for immeasurable via freely traveling through time.

My point on this is that if the verse doesn’t acknowledge finite speed being good enough to transcend space-time, then freely transcending space-time with Speed should be arguable for immeasurable.

Transcending space-time isn't in our requirements for Immeasurable tho. Saying that it must grant Immeasurable just does not follow.

Freely traveling through time is in our requirements for Immeasurable, so if characters can do that without it explicitly being from FTL speeds, we put it at Immeasurable.

It feels like you're getting the order of logic messed up here.

It also doesn’t mean it can’t be greater than them either.

Okay???????? Look at what you said here in the context of the greater conversation:
  • Me: This feat is unquantifiable.
  • You: Infinite/immeasurable can't be quantified anyway, why would that feat being unquantifiable stop it from being immeasurable?
  • Me: By "Unquantifiable" I mean "It could be any finite amount, or it could be infinite, or it could be immeasurable, so we can't give it a rating."
  • You: It could be greater than that too.
The point is that we don't know so we can't rate it, your reply doesn't engage with that.

Ok I’m finally done with school stuff for the time being, so correct me if I’m wrong, but the statement alone of transcending time and space isn’t enough for immeasurable right? There has to be legit evidence of time travel through movement for the statement of transcending time and space to be a legit immeasurable speed feat?

That's what I've gathered.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
For starters, Infinite speed is a character who's so fast, they move faster than time can flow period. The character perceives every finite speed object as completely frozen and it takes 0 time for them to react to any non finite speed object or to travel any finite speed distance. But they can also perform and infinite number of actions or travel infinite distance within a finite amount of time. And perception of time basically only flows when the infinite speed character lets it flow.
But Immeasurable speed is far beyond even that. They also perceive all infinite speed things as frozen, and they can also travel forward and backward in time at will. They can basically hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time and any period in between as casually as anyone can roll their eyes left or right. And this also means their reactions speeds are faster than instantaneous. They can dodge an attack that already has been struct, or they can strike someone even before they launched in attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Thank you. This is pretty straightforward for me, so I do not really get why it is so hard to understand.
 
Anyway, given what ShiroyashaGinSan said earlier, should we downgrade the Guilty Gear and BlazBlue characters then? And if so, would somebody be willing to apply the changes please?
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, given what ShiroyashaGinSan said earlier, should we downgrade the Guilty Gear and BlazBlue characters then? And if so, would somebody be willing to apply the changes please?
Click to expand...
Another one that I saw was "world of darkness" they get their immesurable for going thro a void that had no time and space to beging with
 
Isn't World of Darkness very high-tiered though? If a 1-A character has statements of transcending time, that tends to be more reliable than a tier 4 with such claims. However, I am not informed about the context.
 
Antvasima said:
Isn't World of Darkness very high-tiered though? If a 1-A character has statements of transcending time, that tends to be more reliable than a tier 4 with such claims. However, I am not informed about the context.
Click to expand...
Just mention it cus the whole "being in a place where time and space does not exist will not give a rating"

Which is their justification even in their lowest level so I thought I might bring them up just in case
 
Yes, as I mentioned, I do not know the context.

Anyway, I would greatly appreciate help with removing immeasurable speed from the verses that we decided should not have it earlier in this thread.
 
Antvasima said:
Isn't World of Darkness very high-tiered though? If a 1-A character has statements of transcending time, that tends to be more reliable than a tier 4 with such claims. However, I am not informed about the context.
Click to expand...
Won't a 1-A Character get Irrelevant instead of Immeasurable anyway?
 
Everything12:

Traditionally, yes, but I am not sure about if things will remain that way after Ultima has finished with all of the tiering system updates.
 
Agnaa said:
Okay and for Immeasurable?

For immeasurable it requires the time part being wack.

... I think I see your point here now, my bad.

Yes and that’s exactly why I’m arguing higher dimensional space-time transcendence done freely should definitely qualify for immeasurable speeds

Going beyond time all together freely should be far superior to simply moving through time freely is what I’m trying to say here. Saying otherwise makes no sense.

People disagreed with that in the past iirc. I don't remember their reasons as I wasn't there, I can only say what the standards are now.

Nice job of putting words in my mouth. I’m not imposing anything here, I’m calling out something I see is a flaw that makes, as I said above, absolutely no sense and hasn’t been properly explained yet. You can’t say freely moving through time grants something that moving beyond it freely all together isn’t able to accomplish. Not without good reasoning, and so far, I haven’t seen this brought here.

Yeah I wasn't in those threads so I can't help you out with the why.
Click to expand...
Since you seem to now see the main issue I’m trying to point out, I’ll only focus on these bits so the thread doesn’t get anymore derailed by irrelevant stuff.

Simply put, the main confusion with the current standards I have is that we accept freely moving through linear time at will as immeasurable speed, but for lack of explained reasoning, someone who could freely move beyond time all together with movement isn’t qualified for the same exact rating. To make sure you get a clear picture of what I’m trying to say, let’s use this as an example:

opposite-arrays.png

Let’s take this line, with points X, Z and Y.

X represents the past
Z represents the present
Y represents the future

Based on how the current standards work, freely moving from Y (the future) to X (the past) or from Z (the present) to Y (the future) would be immeasurable speed. Freely moving throughout the line segment, which in this case, is linear time.

This is where the problem comes now. Let’s say a character can freely move into a higher dimension that’s proven to transcend space and time. And by freely, I mean it’s a speed feat and not some teleportation or whatever. That means, instead of them simply moving between points X, Z and Y, aka moving between the past, present and future, they are moving beyond all 3 of them entirely.

This is my main issue with the current standards. And if there’s an explanation for why we don’t accept the latter, someone please explain it to me.

Because I’m not understanding how someone who’s freely able to move beyond all of what linear time is (which actually should still count moving through linear time and then some) cannot get the same speed rating as someone who can only move throughout linear time and nothing else.
 
Theglassman12:

Yes, of course.
 
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