Arcker123
He/Him- 8,078
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Byakuya Vs Akainu Vs Hashirama
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HST Showdown - (Round 7 - Prodigies)
- Thread starter Deceived3596
- Start date
speedster352
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Any bleach supporters?
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Logia users have elemental intangibility which I don't believe a Bijuudama counters. The elemental intangibility makes him immune to physical attacks.
MinatoSparkle
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I mean in a way ninjutsu is a kind of spiritual attack since it's partially composed of spiritual energy
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Ninjutsu being composed of spiritual energy doesn't mean it attacks the soul directly and in order to damage a Logia user you either need to attack their souls directly or negate their elemental intangibility. Minato's only wincon against Ace would probably be sealing.
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I've never once seen Kaidou attack Prometheus, Zeus or Hera before, so I'm not sure where you got this from. Haki protects the soul from being tampered with in general, whether that be grabbing it, weakening it, or straight up attacking it.
When Zoro used flame rend, he did not coat his blade in Haki, so this is irrelevant.
Brook's abilities to manipulate the soul were stated by Brook to work on Big Mom's Homies due to them having weak spirits. Haki, which is essentially the physical manifestation of one's spirit logically would resist this, which is also supporting by Kaidou stated that Haki trumps fruit abilities and with Haki already being established to resist devil fruit abilities.
MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,190
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I think I'm incon for now
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It’s been literal years since I read WCI, but didn’t Big Mom say something along the lines of Brook being the first person to harm her main homies due to his soul manip?
Haki protects from the specific applications of DF abilities, not as blanket resistances or power null. And Big Mom’s dura neg soul hax is resisted by not being scared of her. I don’t remember any application of Brook attacking the soul directly being resisted by Haki. I would almost be sure Haki would resist it if it weren’t for the fact that the series itself treats Soul Hax as special even compared to Haki interactions
As for Zoro, Enma forces Haki out of Zoro at all times before he mastered it, and not all Haki is Buso hardening.
I know people have been able to interact with homies before but iirc, the only people that legit damaged them were Brook and Law, who both have soul manip
All that aside, there’s no way to quantify Toshiro’s ice other than being able to freeze explosions and Sternritter tier Reishi constructs which emit intense heat that can burn fire resistant environments.
Is OP’s soul hax resistance layers enough to deal with Bleach’s layers of soul hax?
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Wouldn’t that be Ace’s resistance to heat as opposed to the heat he emits? What’s the reason for his fire scaling to the heat of Akainu
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No it doesn't. whenever it forced Haki out of Zoro, we see see it clearly.
How layered is Toshiro's ice?
speedster352
He/Him- 17,545
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It’s the strongest ice type zanpakuto also bleach soul manipulation is extremely layered. Just ask the bleach supporters
Excellence616
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We don't have a specific layering profile or thread like One Piece Haki or Naruto genjutsu.
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Where do the layers come from, reiatsu crush?
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I keep seeing people say that Ace could just melt Toshiro's ice, when it's shown to be able to resist fires that should scale WAY higher than Ace's.
Ace's fire scales to the 28,000°C magma. Toshiro's ice scales above Bazz-B's casual fire manipulation, and could resist Burner Finger One for a short time, as shown in the anime. Bazz was able to offset Yamamoto's shikai flames, which should be 10x colder than his bankai flames, which are 15,000,000°C. Meaning Bazz's fires scale to 1,500,000°C. In fairness, this was likely using Burning Full Fingers, but unless you can prove that BF1 is over 50x weaker than BFF, Toshiro's shikai can handle Ace's fire.
Toshiro easily sweeps this fight. Ace gets caught by Rokui Hyoketsujin and can't break out before he suffocates. Minato gets caught in Toshiro's absolutely massive AoE, with Toshiro in Soul Society having a range of over 7 miles. Toshiro just has no issues handling these 2.
Ace's fire scales to the 28,000°C magma. Toshiro's ice scales above Bazz-B's casual fire manipulation, and could resist Burner Finger One for a short time, as shown in the anime. Bazz was able to offset Yamamoto's shikai flames, which should be 10x colder than his bankai flames, which are 15,000,000°C. Meaning Bazz's fires scale to 1,500,000°C. In fairness, this was likely using Burning Full Fingers, but unless you can prove that BF1 is over 50x weaker than BFF, Toshiro's shikai can handle Ace's fire.
Toshiro easily sweeps this fight. Ace gets caught by Rokui Hyoketsujin and can't break out before he suffocates. Minato gets caught in Toshiro's absolutely massive AoE, with Toshiro in Soul Society having a range of over 7 miles. Toshiro just has no issues handling these 2.
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Lmao.
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Bankai is a 5-10x amp. His bankai is 15,000,000°C, his shikai would be 1/10th of this.
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I'm going to let the Bleach supporters/experts handle this because I don't even watch Bleach like that and I know this is wrong.
speedster352
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He still had access to bankai just not his adult version.
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Yamamoto's bankai is fire at 15,000,000°C. Bazz's fire managed to offset Yamamoto's shikai fire. Bankai is a 5-10x amp. Bazz's fire scales to 1,500,000°C. Toshiro's shikai could stand up to Burner Finger One for a couple seconds. Unless you wanna argue that BF1 is 50x weaker than Burning Full Fingers, Ace's fire can't get through Toshiro's shikai, much less his bankai.
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That was about Yamamoto, because Toshiro's ice scales off of Bazz-B's fire, which could offset Yamamoto's shikai.
speedster352
He/Him- 17,545
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Yeah Toshiro ice can counter a characters who fire while nerfed is way above 28000c in just shikai and bankai is a different story. Any my vote goes to Toshiba fra
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Can you drop the proof
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- Thread starter
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We don't currently accept that Yama's Shikai flames are 5-10x colder compared to his Bankai flames. That would require an accepted and applied CRT before we can assert such things as true and applicable to this match up.
speedster352
He/Him- 17,545
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Like you said this is just fun and games and still a tiny fraction of 15 million is way above 28000c which toshiro inadvertently scales to
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- Thread starter
- #148
We don't downscale Yama's Shikai heat from his Bankai heat. That's not an accepted scale currently used on his profile, so it isn't usable in this fight. We're still abiding by what's accepted on these profiles, regardless of the fact this thread is just for fun.
Da3ggman
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Voting Ace. The only arguments for either of the two besting him I see as being possibly valid are freezing Ace's soul, but the Bleach supporters still haven't provided any evidence that Soul Manip in Bleach is above the layered resistance of Haki. Also, quit trying to use things that aren't on Toshiro's profile; make a CRT or something first.
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They would still have to be far hotter than Ace's possibly 28000°C flames, unless you wanna prove that Yamamoto's shikai is, by some miracle of plot, 535x colder than his bankai.
Yama's shikai also has the feat of instantly turning Driscoll into a skeleton and then burning his bones to ash in a matter of seconds. Crematoriums burn the flesh off bones and mostly burn the bones using a temperature of ~1000°C for 2 hours. Doing a quick conduction heat transfer calc, to transfer the same energy into a human body in 60 seconds would require fire that is 110,000°C, while doing it in 1 second would take a temperature of 7,000,000°C.
According to my quick research, the average thermal conductivity of the materials in a human body is ~0.4 W/mK, the average surface area of a human body is ~1.7 m², the average thickness of a human body is ~0.3 m, and the average body temperature is ~37°C. Plugging all this into the formula for conduction heat transfer gives us numbers that Ace could only dream of reaching, so no matter how you slice it, Ace's fire can't melt Toshiro's ice.
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?
This Forum and the versus threads on it are all the Wiki's, and because of that, we use the information that is on the profiles on the Wiki.
If you want to debate something that is not reflected on the profiles, you would have to make a CRT.
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Proof Bazz's fire scales to shikai Yama:
Proof Toshiro's shikai ice could resist Burner Finger 1:
Image isn't working, it's the Burner Finger 1 gif we have on Bazz's profile.
So Toshiro's shikai can resist fires that scale to Yamamoto's shikai, and his bankai should be much harder to melt.
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In order for 28,000°C to be enough to deal with Toshiro's ice, you'd have to prove that Yamamoto's shikai is over 500x colder than his bankai, otherwise Toshiro has scaling that puts his ice above Ace's fire.
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What standard am I not following?
Yamamoto's bankai: 15,000,000°C, on his profile.
Ace's fire: 28,000°C, on his profile.
Bazz-B: scales to Yama's shikai, on his profile.
Toshiro: blocks Bazz's fires multiple times in their fight, and holds BF1 off for a small time(shown in the gif of BF1 on Bazz's profile)
For Ace's fires to melt Toshiro's ice, Yamamoto's bankai must necessarily be 535x hotter than his shikai.
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Yama's Bankai ≠ Yama's Shikai.
Using what is accepted and reflected on the profiles.
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So you are saying that Yamamoto's bankai is 535x hotter than his shikai? Because that's a big claim.
The things I have said that aren't on the profiles are as follows: Yama's shikai would be 1.5 mil°C due to the multipliers in the series. I then stopped using that once it was brought up to not be on the profiles. Then a small calc as supporting evidence for Yama's fire being way hotter than Ace's, using a feat that is accepted on Yamamoto's profile.
My core argument is all on the profiles. Core argument: Toshiro could resist Bazz-B's heat. Bazz-B could block Yamamoto's shikai fires with his own fires. Unless Yamamoto's shikai is 535x colder than his bankai, Ace's fires can't melt Toahiro's ice.
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You can't keep doing this, if it isn't accepted, it isn't accepted. You could even make a CRT right now to try to push it
EldemadeDityjon
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Ask some calculation members to check this. I mean arc can verify this if it's correct and you are good to go.
