speedster352
He/Him- 17,550
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Tosen fra
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HST Showdown - (Round 4 - Tainted Dreams)
- Thread starter Deceived3596
- Start date
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I don't see how kuzan can neg kamui, obito also would totally use mind control genjustu as a wincon, he was mind controlling yagura for years. And let's not forget that he was mind controling the 9 tails when he fought minato when he was 13. All it takes is eye contact with kuzan and he's done
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,916
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Voting Tosen for Arc Reasons.
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- Thread starter
- #204
With Elde's vote, we have entered Grace.
speedster352
He/Him- 17,550
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What are arc reasons again? Can I have a quick summary?
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Wtf.
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- #207
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Whole FRA a statement which gets no diffed by kenbun alone. It doesn't take away his ability to aoe flash freeze.
Tosen wins tho. Congrats. Round 5 when
Tosen wins tho. Congrats. Round 5 when
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- #210
Just wait until the Itachi match up, they'll be eating.
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What's the theme? Best fried egg maker?
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Kuzan definitely had better arguments and counterpoints.
Tousen's zanpakuto would be instantly frozen upon touching Aokiji's body - Aokiji could simply reshape himself to evade any physical attacks, as he did against WB. Even though Tousen can hit souls with casual sword attacks, he wouldn't be hitting Kuzan here and any attempt to do so could leave him disarmed.
So about Bankai and Shikai. At first Aokiji's Observation Haki would be enough to alert him of the future intentions of Tousen's movements, and what he would do (this is a basic property of kenbunshoku), so, before Tousen used the shikai, Kuzan could simply assume his elemental form, or destroy his ears so he wouldn't hear the noise and fall asleep, precog would give him all the time in the world to do that. Tousen's bankai, if it hits Kuzan, it can even take away his senses, but it wouldn't nullify haki entirely, Haki is not a sense in itself, but a distinct power inherent in every human being, Tousen could at most nulls the extrasensory perception ability of Haki for example, but Aokiji would still be able to precog, IR and so. However, worst of all is that by the SBA, Tousen would not even have the distance to be able to use these two powers in the confrontation, since Kuzan outranges.
Obito is greatly underrated here because I believe he would be a challenge for both, mainly because of his intangibility. However, he would need to start directly with this in order not to die instantly by Kuzan's opening move. Not to mention that Obito relies on Kamui's absorption function in combat as well, something that cannot be conciled with intangibility (irrc that's why Minato could beat him with Rasengan) and he has no idea that Kuzan would resist this, as he tries to close the distance to teleport Kuzan he would be frozen and dead.
Voting Aokiji.
Tousen's zanpakuto would be instantly frozen upon touching Aokiji's body - Aokiji could simply reshape himself to evade any physical attacks, as he did against WB. Even though Tousen can hit souls with casual sword attacks, he wouldn't be hitting Kuzan here and any attempt to do so could leave him disarmed.
So about Bankai and Shikai. At first Aokiji's Observation Haki would be enough to alert him of the future intentions of Tousen's movements, and what he would do (this is a basic property of kenbunshoku), so, before Tousen used the shikai, Kuzan could simply assume his elemental form, or destroy his ears so he wouldn't hear the noise and fall asleep, precog would give him all the time in the world to do that. Tousen's bankai, if it hits Kuzan, it can even take away his senses, but it wouldn't nullify haki entirely, Haki is not a sense in itself, but a distinct power inherent in every human being, Tousen could at most nulls the extrasensory perception ability of Haki for example, but Aokiji would still be able to precog, IR and so. However, worst of all is that by the SBA, Tousen would not even have the distance to be able to use these two powers in the confrontation, since Kuzan outranges.
Obito is greatly underrated here because I believe he would be a challenge for both, mainly because of his intangibility. However, he would need to start directly with this in order not to die instantly by Kuzan's opening move. Not to mention that Obito relies on Kamui's absorption function in combat as well, something that cannot be conciled with intangibility (irrc that's why Minato could beat him with Rasengan) and he has no idea that Kuzan would resist this, as he tries to close the distance to teleport Kuzan he would be frozen and dead.
Voting Aokiji.
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You say that till you throw them a Bleach character.
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He's going to wreck Shinji and Kuma in the fake villains tournament tbh.
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Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
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Kuzan FRA
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- Thread starter
- #219
Don't agree, and I'll explain why.
Sure, it would freeze it, but it wouldn't disable Tosen's capabilities of damaging Kuzan because of the inherent Soul Manipulation behind his attacks, and the force still being generated by his strike, switching an object from inducing cutting damage to blunt damage wouldn't negate the damage still being done. So unless you argue that the coldness of Kuzan's ice is low enough to actually destroy the blade, it wouldn't grant Kuzan any level of defense against Tosen.
Tosen could also just destroy the ice on his sword through producing loud enough sound with his Shikai as well.
Kuzan could reshape his form, but this wouldn't help Kuzan all that much because of Tosen's Danmaku allowing him to spam hundreds of swords at Kuzan, one of those blades will eventually hit Kuzan because of the sheer amount of objects thrown at him, he can't always freeze all those projectiles over hours upon hours, the probability of such happening would be extremely low and such would require a higher preponderance of evidence to assume true. If one of those swords does hit Kuzan then it's going to be extremely bad for him because of the aforementioned Soul Manipulation of Tosen.
I'll assume, for the sake of argument, that Kuzan will start out with using Kenbu despite the fact that it's never been proven he actively starts with it in this thread.
Kuzan can have all the intel, and future intentions of Tosen's actions he wants through Kenbu, it doesn't mean he'll always act on that information during a fight. He can have information on Tosen capabilities, but if he's put into situations where he can't use that prior information, such as having hundreds of swords flung at him by Tosen's Shikai, could possibly dampen his ability to react to future events, like Tosen activating his Shikai's Sleep Manipulation or Bankai. That future information would be useless to him because he can't actively utilize it in that needed instance.
I believe Tosen has the capabilities to put Kuzan in these situations, and when he does, I don't believe Kuzan can survive those encounters.
Also in regards to the range disparity between the two, Tosen has ways to decrease that disparity through flight and Shunpo, he could dodge the ice through both abilities as well. He could also just teleport to his location with Sentan Hakuja if needed.
With all of that said, I believe Tosen has the capabilities, skill and intellect needed to dodge and evade the abilities of both Kuzan and Obito while also possessing wincons which are easily attainable and don't have many counters towards.
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"Kuzan cant freeze them all!"
have you literally seen this man's AoE? He can do so effortlessly and he has more endurance and Stamina then the other two who by a few void whales
have you literally seen this man's AoE? He can do so effortlessly and he has more endurance and Stamina then the other two who by a few void whales
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- #221
I didn't say that Kuzan can't freeze all of them, I'm saying the likelihood of Kuzan continually freezing all of them over the span of hours upon hours is unlikely. Two massively different assertions.
Yes, I know that Kuzan has massive AOE with his freezing, still doesn't negate the argument I proposed because my argument wasn't an argument against his AOE, but rather an argument against his consistency.
Yes, I know that Kuzan has massive AOE with his freezing, still doesn't negate the argument I proposed because my argument wasn't an argument against his AOE, but rather an argument against his consistency.
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Why?
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- #223
Because I don't see Kuzan being capable of constantly freezing the blades while having to deal with Obito and the other actions of Tosen over the span of multiple hours?
I believe it is unlikely, hence why I believe Tosen wins.
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...he can literally either think or do a hand movement and freeze all of them. From 23 Kilometers out. I'd be more worried about if Tosen can keep that shit up for as long as Kuzan can... spoiler alert, Kuzan kept fighting despite taking injuries for 10 days against his near-equal.
Okay so he makes a hand movement and puts Obito into a block of ice. He can also do that to Tosen. Especially of Tosen gets close to him since Kuzan is tall as all **** and as such has the range advantage
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Kuzan can flash freeze everything within over 50+ km. I severely doubt Shunpo would help. Especially considering this is a starting move for Kuzan.
As for Sentan Hakuja, Kenbun would allow Kuzan to know where Tosen would pop up before he even uses the attack, which gives him time to freeze the air to levels where if Tosen stands in it, he’d get frozen instantly.
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Kuzan was able to fight for 10 days without rest against the most aggressive fighter in the verse, who has superior AP, a large elemental advantage, and comparable other stats. He can definitely freeze all of these.
Or just block them with Buso Emission.
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The sleep manipulation is useless, as Kenbun has been shown on several occasions to wake the user up while they’re unconscious. (Zoro with Kaku, Sanji with Luffy, Zoro with Hody, etc.)
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Technically the superior AP is dura neg but regardless
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- Thread starter
- #230
Sure, he could freeze them, and continually keep freezing them for an unknown period of time. It wouldn't debunk the argument I proposed in my post though because I never discredited that capability. I just don't believe he could always keep doing it for over hours upon hours because of all the other shit happening in this fight. It isn't just Tosen vs Kuzan, it also includes Obito who has shit which could heavily affect Kuzan, like Genjutsu, which wouldn't affect Tosen because of his blindness.
Cool stamina feat for Kuzan, good I'm not arguing the fight will take days on end, but just hours. Which is completely in the capabilities of Tosen to fight at.
Obito has passive intangibility through Kamui, he isn't putting Obito in a block of ice that easily. He could try to do that against Tosen, don't believe it would work that well because of the whole Shunpo shit.
How high does he flash freeze, since Tosen will most likely be in the air, not on the ground.
Sure.
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It can reach above extremely tall mountains that peak above other ones in the area.
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- Thread starter
- #232
Can you provide scans of this?
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Alright, do you have evidence that this was a casual use of Kuzan's Ice Manipulation, instead of an action which required great effort and time from Kuzan. I'm asking because nothing in either scan actually proves this was a casual feat from Kuzan.
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Considering how easy it is for Kuzan to just **** the entire battlefield and then some some danmaku and some change won't be very spooky, plus, that relies on Obito actually, ya know, USING his Genjutsu. I'm sorry but if he's only ever used the Mind Control variant of it on person, I'm not buying him ever dropping it here.
Once again, this is borderline effortless for Kuzan, Kenbun deals with sense and sleep shit cause like, ya need proof of dealing with the like, 6 other senses it gives you including precog.
Now if only Kuzan didn't have something he generally uses with most of his attacks that negated Intangibility.
As for Shunpo... like dawg Kuzan can just freeze farther then Shunpo takes Tosen
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This was a result of Aokiji simply being there fighting.
An actual attack is logically much greater than this.
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why do yall keep saying he only used mind control on one person... He used it on the 9 tails when he was 13 + yagura for years
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Okay, and? Was that ever in combat or did he just say "**** it" and just did it randomly? There's a major difference
