Halo General Revision Thread.

[VersusJunkie54]

Alright. Could I make the changes to suitless John?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I suppose so if Soldier Blue's alright with it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Okay, I looked at the Forerunners profile. And looking at this thread, it really doesn't sound like causality manipulation. It sounds a lot more like closing portals, time deceleration and/or speed reduction, or the ability to disable Space-Time Travel technology. Causality Manipulation is more so manipulating cause and effect to for example make imagination become reality. Forerunners can't really do stuff like that, so I think it Causality Manipulation should be removed from the Forerunners profile.

 

[KarmodF]

No, they were dislocated from Casuality and then used a tool to put themselves again on Casual effects.

 

[KarmodF]

FanofRPGs explained better in another thread, I would ask him if I can.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Didn't he leave for another wiki? And I beleive he hates this wiki now is that right?

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Didn't he leave for another wiki? And I beleive he hates this wiki now is that right?

He's dealing with stress and depression right now in real life. He asked to be banned from this wikia.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Ah I understand.

Also Blue. What are your thoughts on The Didact being 7-B with his Cryptum?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Karmod, that's still not Causality manipulation. Anyone can cause a Time Paradox but travelling back in time but that doesn't mean every single character with time travel automatically has causality manipulation. And even undoing time paradoxes, they're simply are able to travel to other timelines via slipspace; it's not something they can just do with their imagination or something the activate simply by writing it down. They have to actively travel through time and space and then physically do something to cause a time paradox; such as killing an ancestor so their descendant is never born. Causality is basically like wish granting or reality warping; or basically it's an enhancement over Probability manipulation. Forerunners don't have powers like that. Especially since they were incapable of saving themselves from their own fate from the Flood and the Halo Rings.

And yeah, I too miss FanofRPGs; he was a pretty good friend before all the events took place. But I understand him leaving the wiki; though, I was looking at his wiki and he pretty much doesn't like out tiering system anymore. Anyway, I still agree with what Reppuzan was saying on that thread and agree for Causality manipulation to be removed.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Still, John having resistance to Matter Manipulation seems a little iffy considering Spartans still get ionized easily by Promethean weapons, plus he was like on the edge of the blast when he resisted the composer. So if there's any sort of tier Composer could apply to, it's probably an outlier in John's case, but having resistance to Transmutation seems okay for me. Anyway, that should be discussed hereinstead of here.

Master Chief was actually hit by a direct blast from the Composer. In the scene where it happened, the Didact's ship was facing directly at him while the people around him were turned to ash. In any case, the Librarian's "gift" granted him immunity to its effects.

The Composer ionized At least 7 Million people. That would be High 7-C I think. A gargantuan outlier for Chief obviously. But I think we've established that the Composer ignores durability. It may have the same visual effect as Promethean weapons, but it doesn't mean they're similar. Normal Promethean weapons are regular AP. Not any hax.

So you say the Compoer is a mix of Data and Matter Manip right? So how would that be worded into the profile? Unless keeping it as Transmutation is fine.

How hard would it be to create an Ionization value for a Human?

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Just checked the Halo wiki.

Apparentley the population of New Pheonix was 6 million as a lowball. Yet it is right behind Chicago, witch in Universe has a population of 54 million.

The entire city's population was Composed.

The city's size itself is quite large. It is said to be a merger of Pheonix, and Flagstaff in Arizona. Today, those cities are like 233 Kilometers apart.

A city that big having only 6 Million people, especially in the 26'th century is extremely unlikely. I'd say its population compares to Chicago in universe easily.

And even if it didn't have that sort of population. Lets be real, theres no way a city 233 kilometers in size could have only 6-7 million people.

 

[KarmodF]

Anything that puts Spartans above 7-C is an outlier, even 7-C itself is iffy.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Direct hit I suppose, but is it possible that John has some kind of Bubble Shield? Probably not I guess, but "Librarian's gift" sounds more like someone was protecting him rather than him actually surviving it.

It's probably best to just keep it as Transmutation. Transforming someone into a frog is biologically manipulation, turning someone into a ring or inanimate object is some form of elemental manipulation or matter manipulation, and Virtualization is like a combination of Matter and Data Manipulation, but Transmutation still seems like the best for now. (Though it's possible the Transmutation page could use some updates on the different levels or categories on it).

And Ionization of a human value would take ages, I'd have to look up every single elemental/atom's ionization value and look up how much of each one is inside the average human. There'd be trillions of stuff at bare minimum to look up to find the answer. So Human vaporization seems better for now. No durability upgrades for now at least, but resistance to Transmutation seems fine and can stay.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

This wouldn't scale to Spartans for obvious reasons. It's an outlier of insane levels.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Direct hit I suppose, but is it possible that John has some kind of Bubble Shield? Probably not I guess, but "Librarian's gift" sounds more like someone was protecting him rather than him actually surviving it.

Nobody was protecting Master Chief. The Librarian altered his genes to give him immunity, or at least resistance to it. And when he was hit with it, Cortana was not even in his armor.

https://youtu.be/pXCKqt4bWDE?t=268

Chief is hit by Composer.

https://youtu.be/o-4r_5AE6D4?t=256

Chief gains immunity

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, the Composer doesn't really look like a blast, but rather a magnetic field. All it did was pretty much stun John and knocked him unconscious. Everyone individually still looks like they got hit by a 9-A attack which is already John's durability with shielding, and it's implied he would have been ionized like everyone else had he not had the Genesong implanted in him by the Librarian. So Resistance to Transmutation with Genesong seems reasonable.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Yes 300 megajoules is 9-A. But doesn't the Composer ignore durability? If not, I think I could try and estimate its AP based on how populated New Pheonix should be.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes it does, vaporizing a human, regardless of hax Vs AP is still a 9-A feat, and yes durability negation can work on characters with much higher durability if they don't have resistance. Anyway, vaporizing 54,000,000 people would be 1.62 * 10^16 joules or 3.87 Megatons which is Small City level+. Doesn't scale to anyone's durability, but it could legitimately be the Composer's AP. Or maybe it could scale to Didact's Durability and other Forerunner leaders.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

If that's the case, I'm going to make a blog and attempt to calculate its AP. Rather than going off of the Halo wiki, witch has questionable reliability. I'm going to estimate its population based on its size. (Being a merger of Modern Day Flagstaff, and Pheonix in Arizona)

 

[VersusJunkie54]

I'm in the process of compiling the blog itself together, though it may take awhile.

But couldn't we also just use the rate at witch Phoenix today is growing and apply that to the time between say...... 2016 and 2557?

Here's what this gets.

As of 2016, Pheonix Arizona has a yearly growth of 2.03%. Meaning it increases by 1.023 times every year.

I'm going to use the Metropolitan population of 4.5 million, since the Composer's effect spread out over the entire city.

541 years passed between 2016 and 2557.

I forgot the formula to use for this, so I decided to use an interest Calculator. It's the same principle, so I think it should work.

This resulted in 53,920,350 people living in New Phoenix. Considering this is the Metropolitan area of a city 233 Kilometers in size, I think this is reasonable.

Surprisingly, right on target for the values provided on the wiki page. DDM already provided a very simple calc on the AP needed to accomplish this.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Except those are the canon muzzle velocities stated in the guidebooks. Besides, plasma projectiles in fiction really aren't calcable outside of statements or cinematic timeframes; it's all far too inconsistent. We really can't just assume they're High Hypersonic, Sub-Relativistic, Speed of Light, ect unless theirs actual legitimacy; I don't want a repeat of the DOOM incident. The Flamethrower is the closest thing IRL to a plasma rifle, and even then, that's Subsonic at best.
Still, it's more consistent for most Covenant and Forerunner weapons to be in the Subsonic to Supersonic range considering all of these characters, (Not just Spartans, but Elites, Jiralhanae, and Prometheans) do legit in canon struggle to dodge normal bullets. The Brute Chieftain that snuck up on Cal was unable to dodge a couple of Assault Rifles from marines. Even the cutscenes portray Covenant plasma and some Forerunner projectiles as being slower than bullets. Covenant Plasma has around the same projectile speed as stun guns, which are Subsonic. The only weapons that are legit confirmed to be Lightspeed are the Spartan lasers, and the Sentinel Beams; both of which no one dodges. Spartan lasers are of course undodgeable once fired, it's only the 5 second charge is what people use to their advantage. And 343 Guilty Spark for example typically fires it to the side, and just turns around using the beam more like a long sword rather than a projectile. Onyx sentinels have a similar weakness to the Spartan laser in which they require a few seconds to charge.

And Hardlight projectiles are clearly not lightspeed. One of the main reasons light is so fast is because it has zero mass, and is not effected by gravity, hard light turns light into solid matter giving it some mass and enables it to have kinetic energy, but that in turn causes it to be much slower than light as it's not effected by gravity. Additionally, as mentioned above, the speed is not that much different from regular bullets. Still John still barely dodged that handgun, and it's likely he's faster now, but not overwhelmingly faster. The Subsonic+ Anti-Scorpion Tank rocket, while a low end feat speed wise, was still another thing he struggled with reacting to, his combat speed really can't be much greater than Supersonic.

And actually, little is known about the Precursors, but actually, they were the ones who built various Forerunner technologies. They were the ones who built the Mantle's Approach according to some of their backstory. Also, them being "Transcendent" is more so just the religious beliefs of the Forerunners and Covenant; Precursors aren't real "gods" and are more like an ancient alien race that preceded others that come after them. Still, their best speed feats outside of Slipspace, which is still literally warp technology, is only Relativistic. And even then, their profile says it's travel speed. Also, Precursors were the original Flood technically speaking. The Floods were creating but the Precursors using their ashes iirc. And they're more like The Zerg Swarm.

Anyway, this thread. Let's keep this thread focused on the match.

What Guidebooks specifically? I'm not disputing that Human weapons top out at that level. But where are you getting the idea that Forerunner Weapons are as slow as Human Weapons? Despite Forerunners consistently shown and stated to be far above Human and Covenant tech? That is just utterly ridiculous. Feats>Guidebooks and Game-Engine induced limitatrions.

Some massive Non-Sequitors here. I never once implied that Forerunner weapons where lightspeed by any stretch of the imagination. Nor did I ever imply that Spartans or others where at all capable of dodging the SP laser. I'd like it if you wouldn't jump to conclusions.

The Scorpion Missile should just be scaled to MC's speed tbh, it makes more sense. Feats > Guidebook statements.Same with other weapons, we should just ignore their stated speed in all honesty. Since they're regularly able to bother Supersonic Characters.

You can't use cutscenes or guidebooks to downplay something's speed. That's like saying Meliodas is only Subsonic because we more often than not see him moving at Subsnoic-ish velocities in the series, despite him having a legit Massively Hypersonic feat


But you're right about the Slipspace bit. Slipspace is really just a dimension that allows someone to ignore the Speed of Light.


Yeah, Master Chief won't be jumping to High Hypersonic or anything crazy like that. But Supersonic+ or even Hypersonic is hardly a stretch.


Also, we should really just ignore limitations and low-ends created by gameplay limitations.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Incineration Cannon is 40 m/s to 67 m/s also, and I didn't say all Forerunner weapons were slower, just some of them. Most Forerunner weapons don't really have official muzzle velocities aside from Incineration Cannon though. But by guidebooks, I mean the Halo encyclopedia iirc. Binary Rifle for example might be faster, but that's the only usable Forerunner weapon that's really all that fast since Muzzle Velocity just says "Very Fast" in Halo 4 and 5 guidebooks; that one might scale to the Beam Rifle. Other Forerunner weapons are stated to have around Medium, or slow in the Incineration Cannon's case, but another book does give more detailed and is shown on Halopedia. Also, Forerunner and Covenant weapons are stronger for sure, but stronger doesn't always mean faster.

I wasn't talking about you regarding Hardlight. But on another thread, @KarmodF tried to argue that Hard Light weapons were lightspeed just because it's "Hard Light." I meant to address that bit to him and basically repeat the details to him.

That's not how projectiles work. We don't assume that regular everyday military projectiles scale to characters better speed feats, we go by the official scientific velocity and/or compare it to the real word counter part and just treat struggling to react to is as a low end feat. We don't assume that DC Comics has Massively FTL+ bullets due to Wonder Woman or Superman struggling to dodge bullets, we just consider it a low end feat/PIS and leave it at that. John has his own better Mach 1.25 speed feat from Magnum, so we can scale to that, but let's not use faster projectiles to backwards scale to slower projectiles. We don't scale stronger weapons such as Rocket launchers to handguns either, so it makes no sense for us to scale rockets to faster bullets either by that logic.

And that's a completely different topic. If Meliodas has a legit Massively Hypersonic speed feat, then we can go by that and consider the low end or Cinematic timeframes low ned feats and leave it at that. Spartans on the other hand don't have any speed feats higher than Supersonic. Also, I'm not saying all frames per second among other things are 100% accurate, I'm simply pointing out that in the same cutscenes, and in Halo Legends bullets typically travel point A to Point B almost instantly, where as you can sort of see Covenant weapons move in the very same scenes.

I can understand your point, but still. The bottomline is that Covenant Weapons haven't demonstrated moving faster than Subsonic outside of Carbine and Beam Rifle. That Beam Rifle feat just from that image seemed rather vague and could be aim dodging. A Spartan tackled another Spartan a bit faster than the shooter could react is what it looked more like. Most hard light weapons don't really have official speed ratings or calcs, so a bit dubious. Also, Speed rating jumps via multipliers is still something we're generally against.

If Spartans have better reaction speed feats in which they dodge faster guns at point blank, then that may be more legitimate. But for now, I don't see any.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

There are probably a ton of feats lurking in the many Halo novels. I guess its just a matter of finding them.

Anyways, The Didact may be able to scale from the War Sphinx's flight speed if that can be figured out The Sphnyx is implied to increase power, and not nessecarily reaction speed. I mean, MCU Iron Man scales from his own flight speed iirc.

 

[Schnee_One]

I mean, MCU Iron Man scales from his own flight speed iirc.

While this is true, iron man scales by virtue of reacting and fighting while flying at that speed and fighting those who can keep up with flight speed.

Does Sphinx have anything like that?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, Iron Man can actively perform U-turns while maintaining flight speed, so he's combat speed scales to reactions. Though, Canon Iron Man isn't Massively FTL+ because his Trillion C flight space is autopilot.

Any yeah, I was pretty sure that blog where Kep calc'd the War Sphinx has an attack speed feat digged that could scale to Didact. Also, I gotta leave for work in a bit, so I'll be able to respond in 9 hours from now or so.

 

[Schnee_One]

How could Didact scale too attack speed?

 

[KarmodF]

Hypersonic+ isnt a strecth, just a matter of consistency, more feats on that level and is pretty much a deal.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Unless Spartan level characters have been shown to dodge the Beam Rifle at point blank range, we cannot assume they have Hypersonic+ combat or reactions speeds. It was typically only ever used from long range distances of up to 1.5 kilometers. The gap being not that much greater than Supersonic isn't the main point, the point was it being a legit outpacing the projectile versus Aim Dodging. Or even if the projectile was fired from 300 meters a way or so and character jumped 30 meters to the right or so, said feat would be 10% the projectile, or Mach 1.075 in this case.

If there's feats from dodging bullets faster than Magnum at point blank range, then seems alright. There's a pretty good list of notable weapons on my blog. Didact on the other hand might have some better speed feats, but assumptions are iffy unless he actually demonstrates dodging Mach 10.75 rounds at point blank.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

For attack speed and range for the Didact. I vaugely recall a scene where a Forerunner with similar armor to him tears apart a starship with his Constraint Fields, said starship was in orbit.

Hypersonic+ Chief is unlikely unless the newer armors demonstrate some serious consistentcy on that part. But Hypersonic is on the table if it can be deemed consistent.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Should Energy Swords be considered durability negation? Due to the blade using magnetically sealed, partially ionized, free moving electron based gas rather than traditional matter theyre able to cut through energy shields, armor, flesh, and metals as tough as UNSC Destroyers with no resistance.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Maybe? An Energy Sword is very similar to a Star Wars Lightsaber. Do we consider those to negate dura?

 

[Schnee_One]

Maybe? An Energy Sword is very similar to a Star Wars Lightsaber. Do we consider those to negate dura?

<Star Wars

I am here!

But yes, too a certain extent we do consider a general heat blade to somewhat ignore Durability due to how Heat property and friction work with blades

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Yes, they do ignore durability to an extent via heat. But there are limits. As I don't recall an energy sword ever slicing through a Promethean like butter

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I dont believe there's ever a scenario in which that actually can happen...

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ionized particles, is just a metaphor to say it's Plasma; 4th state of matter. Also, DonTalk as made it clear that he doesn't consider Heat based attacks durability negation, and that's pretty much the best thing energy Swords are considered.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

I'm against citing a single user or staff (Current or former) as an authority on something. So can you link to where he said that, and more importantly provided solid reasons as to why it shouldn't be?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Dark I mean it can cut through forcefields, thats more than just a heat based attack

 

[VersusJunkie54]

The Energy Shield seems to completely negate most shields in-universe yeah. But that may have to do with shields not being suited to blocking low velocity attacks.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

He mentioned it here. And it was a long time ago yes. But still, unless a character is specially described as having heat/plasma being their kryptonite, we don't consider it durability negation. Cutting though energy Force Fields isn't really durability negation, but rather the fields have limited durability.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

We should just note the Energy Sword as being really good heat manip then right?