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Halo: Master Chief and Spartans' revisions and downgrades

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XSOULOFCINDERX said:
The fact you can briefly see the blast from space lends credence to the aforementioned payload.
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Also, found more Incineration cannon and Proto-Gravemind statements.

"Created to topple the nightmarish spore mountains of the Flood, burn their wretched blight beasts from the surface of dead worlds, and annihilate nascent keyminds before they could spread their malignant influence, the Incineration Cannon was a favored weapon of the Forerunner general known as the Didact, and vast quantities of the weapon were created to arm his Promethean forces in the years before his confinement in Requiem."

(Halo Waypoint, Universe, Weapons, Incineration Cannons)

"A measure of Gravemind's intellect remains, though its new vessel must feed and spread in order for it to manifest fully once again. With every Banished soldier that succumbs to its embrace, the Gravemind's re-emergence grows closer. The mountain of half-dead flesh quivers in anticipation, and the echo of timeless laughter rises from somewhere deep below."

(Halo Wars 2, Phoenix Logs, Proto-Gravemind)

"I pointed to a grayish patch on Uthera’s limb, even now sliding into darkness—but still, as it did so, shaping a visible bump against the thin starfield beyond. “Try focusing on that.” I said.“It is of considerable size,” the residue said. “Yet it does not appear to be a natural feature, nor a Forerunner construct. Ship will take a closer view.” That view—grainy and shimmering, as if through a rising column of hot air—revealed what I had dreaded most and seen only once, ten thousand years before: a spore mountain.The Flood.“The object rises fifty kilometers above the planet’s datum and measures four hundred kilometers across the base, at its greatest diameter. It intersects many Forerunner constructs and appears to have arisen at the center of a major city, which city is, if memory serves—if this is truly Uthera—”(Halo, Silentium, String 5)

Granted this refers to fully formed Spore Mountains, rather than early Spore Mountains like in Halo Wars 2. But who knows? Maybe I could get bold and calc an army of Prometheans annihilating one.

Incineration Cannon variant.

Raging River:

"One of the first Incineration Cannons ever made, the River’s core had been built and refined over decades by an unknown Promethean who served with distinction and honor in dozens of containment operations. The cannon's harmonious energies burned uncounted fetid burrows to ash and toppled grand Spore Towers dedicated to the parasite."

(Halo Waypoint, Canon Fodder - Uncharted Waters)

Shamelessly copy pasting from Reddit.

"According to the latest Encyclopedia, Spore Towers were universally categorized as the largest structures, dwarfing the already enormous Spore Mountains, on a Flood-infested world and were city-sized (possibly a continent-spanning one or something that was visible from orbit, which isn't unheard of even in the contemporary era of the Halo-verse), likely referring to their width, and as for height, it was said to rise to the sky in great peaks."

"And as I've noted, this was just one of the several several specialized variants of the Incineration Cannons, including another type known as the Heartseeker."

"Sources for continent-spanning cities during the ancient time of the Forerunners:"

Charum Hakkor:
The center of human confluence and might was Charum Hakkor, one of the fifteen worlds within the Nov Thasta system, which included Faun Hakkor, Sothra Hakkor, and Ben Nauk. Many of these played host to remarkable repositories of Precursor technologies, even vast, continent-spanning cities sustained by unaged Neural-Physical composites.
(Halo, Encyclopedia 2022, p.27)
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Bornstellar also noted his home planet was covered in vast arrays of architecture visible from space:

Of course our family’s homeworld had changed little. What need for change when every square meter of its surface had been built upon, tuned, and adapted to Forerunner comfort and ambition? Even from a thousand kilometers, the arc of the planet’s limb was visibly ruffled with architecture, though certainly not the equal of the ruins found on any great Precursor planet—no vaulting orbital bridges stretching from world to world, no unbending and eternal cables.…
(Halo, Cryptum, chapter 28)
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VersusJunkie54 said:
Also, found more Incineration cannon and Proto-Gravemind statements.

"Created to topple the nightmarish spore mountains of the Flood, burn their wretched blight beasts from the surface of dead worlds, and annihilate nascent keyminds before they could spread their malignant influence, the Incineration Cannon was a favored weapon of the Forerunner general known as the Didact, and vast quantities of the weapon were created to arm his Promethean forces in the years before his confinement in Requiem."

(Halo Waypoint, Universe, Weapons, Incineration Cannons)

"A measure of Gravemind's intellect remains, though its new vessel must feed and spread in order for it to manifest fully once again. With every Banished soldier that succumbs to its embrace, the Gravemind's re-emergence grows closer. The mountain of half-dead flesh quivers in anticipation, and the echo of timeless laughter rises from somewhere deep below."

(Halo Wars 2, Phoenix Logs, Proto-Gravemind)

"I pointed to a grayish patch on Uthera’s limb, even now sliding into darkness—but still, as it did so, shaping a visible bump against the thin starfield beyond. “Try focusing on that.” I said.“It is of considerable size,” the residue said. “Yet it does not appear to be a natural feature, nor a Forerunner construct. Ship will take a closer view.” That view—grainy and shimmering, as if through a rising column of hot air—revealed what I had dreaded most and seen only once, ten thousand years before: a spore mountain.The Flood.“The object rises fifty kilometers above the planet’s datum and measures four hundred kilometers across the base, at its greatest diameter. It intersects many Forerunner constructs and appears to have arisen at the center of a major city, which city is, if memory serves—if this is truly Uthera—”(Halo, Silentium, String 5)

Granted this refers to fully formed Spore Mountains, rather than early Spore Mountains like in Halo Wars 2. But who knows? Maybe I could get bold and calc an army of Prometheans annihilating one.

Incineration Cannon variant.

Raging River:

"One of the first Incineration Cannons ever made, the River’s core had been built and refined over decades by an unknown Promethean who served with distinction and honor in dozens of containment operations. The cannon's harmonious energies burned uncounted fetid burrows to ash and toppled grand Spore Towers dedicated to the parasite."

(Halo Waypoint, Canon Fodder - Uncharted Waters)

Shamelessly copy pasting from Reddit.

"According to the latest Encyclopedia, Spore Towers were universally categorized as the largest structures, dwarfing the already enormous Spore Mountains, on a Flood-infested world and were city-sized (possibly a continent-spanning one or something that was visible from orbit, which isn't unheard of even in the contemporary era of the Halo-verse), likely referring to their width, and as for height, it was said to rise to the sky in great peaks."

"And as I've noted, this was just one of the several several specialized variants of the Incineration Cannons, including another type known as the Heartseeker."

"Sources for continent-spanning cities during the ancient time of the Forerunners:"


Bornstellar also noted his home planet was covered in vast arrays of architecture visible from space:
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Holy ****.
 
Honestly? Go big or go home, I feel crazy enough to attempt to calc quantify this stuff with the incineration cannon. One controversial calc coming up in some hours!

Medeus will want to see me hung for my actions, lol.

I'm hardly adept at calcs, but at least I'm not the guy who got 9-A from denting a garage door or car hood.
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
Honestly? Go big or go home, I feel crazy enough to attempt to calc quantify this stuff with the incineration cannon. One controversial calc coming up in some hours!
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There's also the Prototype Suit's plethora of calculatable feats.
VersusJunkie54 said:
Medeus will want to see me hung for my actions, lol.

I'm hardly adept at calcs, but at least I'm not the guy who got 9-A from denting a garage door or car hood.
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Oh I remember that dude! That damn calc was so blatantly wanked.
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
Worry not, I'll get to them.

I lurked on the RVR out of curiosity and stumbled upon that whole Tokyo Revengers fiasco. It made me feel more confident about making calculations.
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I bet it did after that shit, not to mention the blatant wanking of our old pal ButterSamurai with a similar garage door related feat.
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
I'll send it your way if I can find it again, but yeah, I didn't know wtf I was looking at.

I've made some bad calculations, like my old explosion calcs where I botched the inverse square law so badly, I have no idea why they were ever accepted to begin with.
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Please do.
 
So best case situation what is Master Cheeks looking at?

8-C with up to 8-B weaponry (not including a nuke)? Or are you trying for High 8-C now for the base tier.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
So best case situation what is Master Cheeks looking at?

8-C with up to 8-B weaponry (not including a nuke)? Or are you trying for High 8-C now for the base tier.
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I was thinking we would discuss this in a new thread. Three whole blogs are still awaiting evaluations, but all we've discussed so far plus the calculations has given us much more to talk about. Once the calcs are evaluated, we may do so. I've already begun drafting the OP in a doc.

Basically 9-C to 8-B weaponry. 7-C with the Incineration Cannon if that calc gets accepted.

And no, Spartans will not be High 8-C physically if that's what you're getting at, Gen 2 John was knocked out for a solid minute or two by a shockwave that made an 8-C crater. You could maybe make a case for High 8-C shields in the Gen 3 from what I calculated a monitor vaporizing a Hunter's torso as Master Chief no-sold a Monitor's laser in Infinite while off guard. I suppose it would be consistent with him being able to take multiple strikes from Atriox's Chainbreaker.
 
Not to mention all the crazy shit the Prototype Suit could do which the Suit's durability at the very least should be scaleable to the Cyclops and Mantis since they're further improvements onto the Hrunting/Ygdrassil line-up.
 
Also, I am very iffy on using Emissivity for Halo plasma weapons. Firstly, fiction in general doesn't obey the laws of physics, and according to DDM this means tanking the Incineration Cannon directly would only be like 9-B+ for the Warden Eternal.

Here's why this...just doesn't add up.

This would imply that the Incineration Cannon wouldn't even be capable of the feat it scales from in the first place, and that goes for literally every other weapon/ability shown to vaporize in fiction. It would imply that the Incineration cannon couldn't even destroy a Mongoose, or a Jackal Shield brace, and both can be quickly destroyed by far far weaker weapons. Plasma pistols wouldn't consistently boil away and vaporize body parts instantly. How would they? Applying real-world emissivity would mean they'd only be 10-C which is nonsense.

Why would plasma torpedoes or glassing beams even be a concern? They couldn't possibly destroy a planet's surface. Why would plasma weapons be consistently described as so incredibly deadly in the Halo verse? Why would the Wraith Mortar destroy anything at all? By this logic it wouldn't even be capable of charring a single Human body, let alone hundreds of Jackals or Grunts.

I can respect the push to be as accurate as possible, but in applying this to a verse that consistently does not obey the same rules as the real world actually has the inverse effect, and goes against the mechanics of the verse. It really only makes sense for a strictly Hard Sci-Fi setting like The Expanse or Orion's Arm. All this proves is that plasma weapons would never be practical in the Real-World whatsoever, but that is irrelevant as far as fiction is concerned.

I do not support measuring Halo weapons this way, and I won't be budging in that stance.
 
Well, it depends on the size of the respective targets; and that's not so much even durability, but pure heat tolerance. Wouldn't even scale to how much overpressure one could withstand. But in light of more important on topic details.

Actually, the Incineration Cannon most definitely generates some overpressure; roughly within the same ballpark as various other anti-tank explosives such as rockets and grenades. Which in turn is still a solid rating for it's destructive levels, but no where near the 7-C results of vaporizing Graveminds and what not. I merely brought that whether the 7-C calculation is usable for AP, that calculation should preferably be avoided when using that for a basis of durability scaling or we'd have to stick to what would realistically give us not so impressive results. It's not like the human vaporization temperature or temperature required to vaporize titanium are temperature caps to the Incineration Cannon. But at the same time, I would avoid downscaling attacks that are vaporization based to anybody. For much of the same reason it was agreed avoid downscaling TF2 cast from Cow Mangler; 9-A scaling was fine for other reasons, but the ultimate concern was characters getting downscaled from something where the entire premise was that it literally vaporizes people to get the rating. And pretty much most shooter verses typically runs into this type of issue.

I'm pretty sure characters who tank Incineration Cannons are higher than 9-B+ for other reasons; obviously such as upscaling from others. Or because Incineration Cannons should logically be no weaker than rocket launchers or grenades; they do demonstrate tank busting levels of destruction in game. There is definitely higher overpressure than the 9-B+ calculations, which in turn could be used for the durability of those who tank them in place; it's just that I would not think anybody would be downscaled from the 7-C results. And the results that would unfortunately get lowered to 9-B+ levels of heat specific durability would fortunately not be relevant anymore at that point due to the existence of alternate/better reasons for scaling.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Well, it depends on the size of the respective targets; and that's not so much even durability, but pure heat tolerance. Wouldn't even scale to how much overpressure one could withstand. But in light of more important on topic details.

Actually, the Incineration Cannon most definitely generates some overpressure; roughly within the same ballpark as various other anti-tank explosives such as rockets and grenades. Which in turn is still a solid rating for it's destructive levels, but no where near the 7-C results of vaporizing Graveminds and what not. I merely brought that whether the 7-C calculation is usable for AP, that calculation should preferably be avoided when using that for a basis of durability scaling or we'd have to stick to what would realistically give us not so impressive results. It's not like the human vaporization temperature or temperature required to vaporize titanium are temperature caps to the Incineration Cannon. But at the same time, I would avoid downscaling attacks that are vaporization based to anybody. For much of the same reason it was agreed avoid downscaling TF2 cast from Cow Mangler; 9-A scaling was fine for other reasons, but the ultimate concern was characters getting downscaled from something where the entire premise was that it literally vaporizes people to get the rating. And pretty much most shooter verses typically runs into this type of issue.

I'm pretty sure characters who tank Incineration Cannons are higher than 9-B+ for other reasons; obviously such as upscaling from others. Or because Incineration Cannons should logically be no weaker than rocket launchers or grenades; they do demonstrate tank busting levels of destruction in game. There is definitely higher overpressure than the 9-B+ calculations, which in turn could be used for the durability of those who tank them in place; it's just that I would not think anybody would be downscaled from the 7-C results. And the results that would unfortunately get lowered to 9-B+ levels of heat specific durability would fortunately not be relevant anymore at that point due to the existence of alternate/better reasons for scaling.
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My man you missed my point entirely, and I'm not sure what you are even talking about. This is completely nonsensical when it comes to the mechanics of the Halo verse. This implies that plasma weapons wouldn't even be capable of the feats that they are calculated at in the first place.

By your logic, Plasma pistols wouldn't even so much as leave a sunburn, let alone boil away limbs and heads.

All this proves is that Plasma weapons wouldn't work in the real world just as FTL methods in fiction wouldn't work in the real world, or how actually being 9-A and above would be impossible because you would need to literally punch at supersonic speeds or higher.

Why would plasma torpedoes, glassing beams, Wraith cannons, Fuel Rods, etc even be a thing at all in Halo if it followed the Real-World 1:1? This gets even weirder with the fact that this isn't applied to VS matches.

Again, I can respect the pursuit of accuracy, but you are actually doing the inverse here.

As Non-Staff I won't pretend that my reasoning carries any weight regardless of how well I make my case, but I am firm in this stance and will not budge from, it period.
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
My man you missed my point entirely, and I'm not sure what you are even talking about. This is completely nonsensical when it comes to the mechanics of the Halo verse. This implies that plasma weapons wouldn't even be capable of the feats that they are calculated at in the first place.

By your logic, Plasma pistols wouldn't even so much as leave a sunburn, let alone boil away limbs and heads.

All this proves is that Plasma weapons wouldn't work in the real world just as FTL methods in fiction wouldn't work in the real world, or how actually being 9-A and above would be impossible because you would need to literally punch at supersonic speeds or higher.

Why would plasma torpedoes, glassing beams, Wraith cannons, Fuel Rods, etc even be a thing at all in Halo if it followed the Real-World 1:1? This gets even weirder with the fact that this isn't applied to VS matches.

Again, I can respect the pursuit of accuracy, but you are actually doing the inverse here.

As Non-Staff I won't pretend that my reasoning carries any weight regardless of how well I make my case, but I am firm in this stance and will not budge from, it period.
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I'm not saying it's perfectly 1 to 1, but there are definitely signs that it as least sort of tries to have some realism. I support some degree of middle ground, some individual feats can be calculated for sure, solid and consistent feats can be usable. But the one thing I want to avoid is circular scaling. It's also not Halo specific, but there's a lot of things I have plans to go over. I am behind on the plans yes, but there's a general plan that Joules of thermal energy =/= overpressure and that weapon/vehicle scaling is especially known for promoting a lot of loopholes compared to what is often simple when it comes to character scaling. We actually well written calc stacking and KE rules when it comes to characters punching and what not given how fiction is infamous for treating super strength and super speed as two separate superpowers (Despite physics outright confirming they're not interchangeable). But there is still a different case by case for other methods.

A simple but obvious example is that I do not believe anyone should be 7-C from tanking Incineration Cannon. I also understand frustration, this is a big community, big website, and a lot of rules. Some of which almost even look like they appear to have opposite policies.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm not saying it's perfectly 1 to 1, but there are definitely signs that it as least sort of tries to have some realism.
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This has never been true. Halo having FTL travel alone disproves this. The UNSC being able to scrounge up enough Titanium to reliably make gigaton massed starships disproves this, a parasite that literally corrupts space, and transmutes bodies into biomass in seconds disproves this. Halo having megastructures that can blip all life above unicellularity at MFTL+ speeds out of existence disproves this. Plasma Weapons that aren't completely useless, and are actually incredibly potent disproves this. Archer Missiles somehow being in the multi-kiloton range despite being non-nuclear disproves this. Halo has never tried to be "somewhat" realistic beyond maybe UNSC firearms.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
I support some degree of middle ground, some individual feats can be calculated for sure, solid and consistent feats can be usable. But the one thing I want to avoid is circular scaling. It's also not Halo specific, but there's a lot of things I have plans to go over. I am behind on the plans yes, but there's a general plan that Joules of thermal energy =/= overpressure and that weapon/vehicle scaling is especially known for promoting a lot of loopholes compared to what is often simple when it comes to character scaling. We actually well written calc stacking and KE rules when it comes to characters punching and what not given how fiction is infamous for treating super strength and super speed as two separate superpowers (Despite physics outright confirming they're not interchangeable). But there is still a different case by case for other methods.
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The inverse square law using the blast radius of the weapon Is the middle ground. Notice how I never actually said anyone should scale to the full Incineration Cannon.

Again, I think you missed my point. I am saying that all you have proven is that thermal energy weapons do not work in the real world, and I compared it to how nobody could ever actually be above 500 kilojoules (assuming speculative RL technology) because you'd literally need to punch at supersonic speeds, and how FTL is impossible in the Real World.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
A simple but obvious example is that I do not believe anyone should be 7-C from tanking Incineration Cannon. I also understand frustration, this is a big community, big website, and a lot of rules. Some of which almost even look like they appear to have opposite policies.
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I'm sorry but regardless of your intent this comes off as incredibly patronizing,

Nobody actually tanks the Incineration Cannon outside of gameplay, and using that is already iffy enough. With the fact that Halo clearly does not obey the same temperature and emissivity laws as the real world, and is almost comically consistent in this means we should compromise by treating this as an inverse square blast. I mean...where does almost ten kilotons of energy go? Does it just vanish? Even in the context of the real world, I am pretty positive that a blob of energy equivalent to 10 kilotons would destroy a 9-B+ character with a direct hit. Hell I don't think even a legit 8-B would survive.
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
is. Archer Missiles somehow being in the multi-kiloton range despite being non-nuclear disproves this. Halo has never tried to be "somewhat" realistic bey
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About that, tbf, IIRC, it ain’t a singular missile, but rather they needed multiple missiles to take down the Covenant’s ship energy shielding.

As for the Slipstream part, tbf, they can’t just casually spam the FTL travels especially they still need a large energy drive in order to achieve said FTL travels.

That is not counting in the issues of slipspacing in atmosphere as shown in Halo 3 ODST where a city got devastated by a Covenant Cruiser going through the slipstream processes.


Also IIRC, in the Halo 3 ODST intro scene, they mention the radiation.

 
HammerStrikes219 said:
About that, tbf, IIRC, it ain’t a singular missile, but rather they needed multiple missiles to take down the Covenant’s energy shielding.
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You're right. To be fair I eyeballed it based on what it would take to fragment billions of tons of Nanolaminate.

HammerStrikes219 said:
As for the Slipstream part, tbf, they can’t just casually spam the FTL travels especially they still need a large energy drive in order to achieve said FTL travels.

That is not counting in the issues of slipspacing in atmosphere as shown in Halo 3 ODST where a city got devastated by a Covenant Cruiser going through the slipstream processes.


Also IIRC, in the Halo 3 ODST intro scene, they mention the radiation.

Click to expand...

There is also a matter of Slipspace "Debt" that was touched on in the Greg Bear novels. As far as FTL methods go, Slipspace is my favorite in fiction.
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
This has never been true. Halo having FTL travel alone disproves this. The UNSC being able to scrounge up enough Titanium to reliably make gigaton massed starships disproves this, a parasite that literally corrupts space, and transmutes bodies into biomass in seconds disproves this. Halo having megastructures that can blip all life above unicellularity at MFTL+ speeds out of existence disproves this.
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Actually, I was about to make an argument against the FTL ship ratings. Just to clarify, technically it is common to make interstellar distances in the Halo universe, but it is impossible to do so traditionally. All FTL space travel feats are really just dimensional travel feats and not actually speed feats. They use pure slipstream space to travel those locations. They enter a portal to slipspace and exit out another portal in slipspace that brings them to a farther away location. The ships pretty much range from Massively Hypersonic to Sub-Relativistic if it weren't for Slipspace. Or even in the Halo Silentium Novel (One of the Forerunner Trilogy books), the Star Roads of the Precursors are simply stated to be one third the speed of light. And that was pretty much the fastest movement velocity ever demonstrated. Of course, they travel entire light years which makes is basically as good as having Massively FTL+ space travel stuff. But again, they only do that with slipspace portals and Hyperspace technology and not pure flight or KE.
VersusJunkie54 said:
Nobody actually tanks the Incineration Cannon outside of gameplay, and using that is already iffy enough. With the fact that Halo clearly does not obey the same temperature and emissivity laws as the real world, and is almost comically consistent in this means we should compromise by treating this as an inverse square blast. I mean...where does almost ten kilotons of energy go? Does it just vanish? Even in the context of the real world, I am pretty positive that a blob of energy equivalent to 10 kilotons would destroy a 9-B+ character with a direct hit. Hell I don't think even a legit 8-B would survive.
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That's a reasonably fair approach then. I do not mind if we simply avoid downscaling from Incineration Cannon altogether. But I should note, I am not saying "Energy just vanishes" there are literally hundreds thousands of different forms of energy. And some forms of energy aren't designed to be harmful. There's potential energy and kinetic energy, and each of those have many many sub categories. Plus, this is something I say regularly as a fun fact; albeit a nasty one. Even the energy output of human excretion is like well over 600 Kilojoules in terms of how much thermal energy output there is, even though it's only 10-C levels of overpressure generated.

I am not asking for too much overthinking, and apologize if the interpretations also came off as too much overthinking. But my hands are full at the moment and there are just some things that are at least worth considering.
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
Not so fast, as eager as I am to turn a downgrade thread around, there's nothing suggesting Spartans physically are in this range. Master Chief was knocked out by a blast that created an 8-C crater, cannot survive a hit from the Warden Eternal's sword, nor can he withstand the Splaser.
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LALALA IM NOT LISTENING
but yeah that’s fair, 9-A - 8-C is doubtlessly more consistent
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Actually, I was about to make an argument against the FTL ship ratings. Just to clarify, technically it is common to make interstellar distances in the Halo universe, but it is impossible to do so traditionally. All FTL space travel feats are really just dimensional travel feats and not actually speed feats. They use pure slipstream space to travel those locations. They enter a portal to slipspace and exit out another portal in slipspace that brings them to a farther away location. The ships pretty much range from Massively Hypersonic to Sub-Relativistic if it weren't for Slipspace. Or even in the Halo Silentium Novel (One of the Forerunner Trilogy books), the Star Roads of the Precursors are simply stated to be one third the speed of light. And that was pretty much the fastest movement velocity ever demonstrated. Of course, they travel entire light years which makes is basically as good as having Massively FTL+ space travel stuff. But again, they only do that with slipspace portals and Hyperspace technology and not pure flight or KE.
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I mean technically you are correct, but this is more semantics than anything. It is not FTL through real space yes, but this is effectively FTL in terms of distance traveled relative to the real world, and as I recall a ship's "speed" through Slipspace is determined by how fast it can move under its own conventional propulsion plus how it actually transitions into slipspace. A lot of Sci-Fi FTL methods are technically dimensional travel.

It's kind of like how Star Trek ships technically aren't "moving", but the space around them is. Their "speed"is still effectively FTL.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
That's a reasonably fair approach then. I do not mind if we simply avoid downscaling from Incineration Cannon altogether. But I should note, I am not saying "Energy just vanishes" there are literally hundreds thousands of different forms of energy.
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I never said that you were saying that, my point is you were implying it. Also, no there are not "hundreds of thousands" of different forms of energy, that's not how Physics works. We do have various forms of KE, PE, Radiant energy, Mechanical Energy, Electromagnetic, and Nuclear plus some subtypes to name a few.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
And some forms of energy aren't designed to be harmful. There's potential energy and kinetic energy, and each of those have many many sub categories. Plus, this is something I say regularly as a fun fact; albeit a nasty one. Even the energy output of human excretion is like well over 600 Kilojoules in terms of how much thermal energy output there is, even though it's only 10-C levels of overpressure generated.
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No form of energy is "designed" to be anything. There are harmful, and unharmful forms of energy release and transfer. Sure that is a fun fact but it's also not relevant at all, and not at all comparable to a massive amount of thermal energy rapidly expanding.

I already stand by that we should refrain from scaling the Incineration Cannon to anyone based on Gameplay mechanics, but I need to make this point anyway. Last night's discussion made me feel like I was taking crazy pills.

I gaslighted myself into actually believing uncritically that Joules of Overpressure /=/ Joules of Thermal energy entirely. Sure this is absolutely true in a Vacuum. As such you were right to criticize my old explosion calcs that occured in space where there was no medium for the rapid thermal release of a blast to expand into and create a shockwave. In that case only Emissivity could be applied as it was the only thing that made sense to quantify it.

But how you managed to arrive at the conclusion that a character only absorbs ten or so megajoules of energy from the point blank expansion of nearly ten kilotons of energy in atmosphere no less is...just wrong. My instincts were correct to doubt it.

Explosives, nuclear or otherwise convert their Chemical or Nuclear PE into thermal energy that expands rapidly. In a Vacuum this would be very quick, a bright flash and a brief cloud of plasma in the case of Nukes and then nothing. This is also why nuclear weapons wouldn't be very good for pure destruction in a Vacuum unless they were to impact point blank where their emissivity could do as much damage as possible. This is another reason that Halo is not realistic. UNSC nukes in space would be basically completely worthless in warfare, at least in the way they use them.

But in atmosphere, that much thermal energy, be it in the tons from conventional explosives to kilotons and megatons with Nukes expands rapidly into the atmosphere, and this creates a massive shockwave, overpressure. That is my point on why we cannot just assume that energy just vanishes and it's purely thermal. Sure, not all of it transfers to the kinetic energy of a shockwave, but that shockwave has to get its energy from somewhere.

In the case of the Incineration Cannon, it is probably the detonation of maybe a quarter of a gram of antimatter in the case of the recent calc. That much energy released rapidly into the atmosphere would create a massive shockwave. So your claim that the Incineration Cannon creates "some" overpressure on the level of rockets or grenades is just flat out incorrect and I think it is little more than a headcanon assumption attempting to reconcile the Incineration Cannon's power with other Heavy Weapons in gameplay mechanics. Realistically, the Incineration Cannon would kill its user, target, and everyone within a certain 15 PSI radius. Which for ten Kilotons would be somewhere around 1.6 Kilometers in radius.

This is why using the Inverse Square Law with the blast's surface area would've been the most fair compromise. We cannot assume the real-world behavior of rapid thermal release in Halo. Emissivity in this case Halo does not obey at all in the first place, and as for Overpressure, all of the 9-A and 8-C weapons would hit more like high explosives rather than soaking all of their energy into the target. Wraiths wouldn't even be able to fire as their own projectiles would explode point blank, destroying them.

But again, I am very iffy if the Incineration Cannon should scale to anyone at all. But my overall point is if we decided it should, we should use the Inverse Square with the known blast radius. You honestly arrived at the correct solution to this initially in your heavy weapons blog, I am disappointed that you decided to needlessly complicate it.

The Warden being 59 tons in durability would be consistent with his resilience to Splasers, Wraith Mortars, and Binary Rifles, but Spartans can punch out his joins and finish him off with a strike in an assasination animation so applying that rating would just mess up the scaling royally. So we shouldn't use it.
 
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You could just make his joints lower in durability since you can only do those assassination animations after severely damaging the Warden to begin with.
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
I gaslighted myself into actually believing uncritically that Joules of Overpressure /=/ Joules of Thermal energy entirely. Sure this is absolutely true in a Vacuum. As such you were right to criticize my old explosion calcs that occured in space where there was no medium for the rapid thermal release of a blast to expand into and create a shockwave. In that case only Emissivity could be applied as it was the only thing that made sense to quantify it.
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Just a heads up, it was mostly in one direction where anything generating X joules of overpressure equates to at least x joules of thermal energy. But not everything generating x joules of thermal energy equates to x joules of over pressure. Internal Thermal energy is defined as the combined kinetic energy of an objects atoms and molecules in motion. And logically speaking, throwing a water balloon at mach speeds would cause all of the water molecules to raise in speed at least proportional to the velocity of the balloon. Hence my concerns for Incineration Cannon, anything 7-C and above levels of overpressure easily possesses 7-C and above amounts of thermal energy, but 7-C amounts of thermal energy doesn't always equate to the same level of overpressure. But I am mainly trying to save that for the general staff thread when I get to that.

VersusJunkie54 said:
I already stand by that we should refrain from scaling the Incineration Cannon to anyone based on Gameplay mechanics, but I need to make this point anyway. Last night's discussion made me feel like I was taking crazy pills.
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I know game mechanics or statistics based damage ratings should be avoided, but there are at least some physics generated by the Incineration Cannon that while not foolproof at least hints something behind IC.
VersusJunkie54 said:
I never said that you were saying that, my point is you were implying it. Also, no there are not "hundreds of thousands" of different forms of energy, that's not how Physics works. We do have various forms of KE, PE, Radiant energy, Mechanical Energy, Electromagnetic, and Nuclear plus some subtypes to name a few.
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I meant to say "Hundreds to thousands" which can mean anywhere between 3 digit numbers to 4 digit numbers, didn't mean to imply the 6 digit numbers of different forms. But there is 9 listed here for example. But to add more examples of potential energy, there are also many many different forms of fusion energy; atomic fusion energy, molecular fusion energy, sub-atomic fusion energy, mass-energy, ect. Which most of which wouldn't translated to AP or durability via simply having that much in the body. Also, there are different variations of atomic fusion energy which functions different purposes for different processes (some of it determines melting point, some of it determines energy density or specific heat capacity. Like whatever type of fusion energy water has a lot of is the opposite of the type found in most metals). Likewise, when it comes to chemical energy, there are also sub variations such as the difference between combustible chemical energy and noncombustible chemical energy.
VersusJunkie54 said:
I mean technically you are correct, but this is more semantics than anything. It is not FTL through real space yes, but this is effectively FTL in terms of distance traveled relative to the real world, and as I recall a ship's "speed" through Slipspace is determined by how fast it can move under its own conventional propulsion plus how it actually transitions into slipspace. A lot of Sci-Fi FTL methods are technically dimensional travel.
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I don't think our rules have ever been properly specified. And I better probably bring it up to a questions and answers board. I recall staff agreeing that we usually treat dimensional travel or teleportation methods as range rather than speed. But I should probably ask before making any final judgements sure.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Just a heads up, it was mostly in one direction where anything generating X joules of overpressure equates to at least x joules of thermal energy. But not everything generating x joules of thermal energy equates to x joules of over pressure. Internal Thermal energy is defined as the combined kinetic energy of an objects atoms and molecules in motion. And logically speaking, throwing a water balloon at mach speeds would cause all of the water molecules to raise in speed at least proportional to the velocity of the balloon. Hence my concerns for Incineration Cannon, anything 7-C and above levels of overpressure easily possesses 7-C and above amounts of thermal energy, but 7-C amounts of thermal energy doesn't always equate to the same level of overpressure. But I am mainly trying to save that for the general staff thread when I get to that.
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Okay what are you even talking about? Again, you missed my point entirely. The rapid release of a huge amount of thermal energy, ten kilotons worth would produce a massive shockwave, overpressure. Why are you even bringing up a water balloon? I don't get why this is relevant at all whatsoever.

A slow and gradual release of thermal energy does not really produce any overpressure, that is correct. But that does not describe the Incineration cannon whatsoever. Thermal energy and overpressure are related, but not equivalent. But still, where do you think the kinetic energy from a shockwave after an explosion comes from? The rapid heated medium from the thermal release expands and creates the shockwave. Not all thermal energy translates to Overpressure, but a significant portion does. You cannot just decide arbitrarily that 0.0001% of the total thermal energy equates to a blast. That is not how a rapid thermal release works.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I know game mechanics or statistics based damage ratings should be avoided, but there are at least some physics generated by the Incineration Cannon that while not foolproof at least hints something behind IC.

I meant to say "Hundreds to thousands" which can mean anywhere between 3 digit numbers to 4 digit numbers, didn't mean to imply the 6 digit numbers of different forms. But there is 9 listed here for example. But to add more examples of potential energy, there are also many many different forms of fusion energy; atomic fusion energy, molecular fusion energy, sub-atomic fusion energy, mass-energy, ect. Which most of which wouldn't translated to AP or durability via simply having that much in the body. Also, there are different variations of atomic fusion energy which functions different purposes for different processes (some of it determines melting point, some of it determines energy density or specific heat capacity. Like whatever type of fusion energy water has a lot of is the opposite of the type found in most metals). Likewise, when it comes to chemical energy, there are also sub variations such as the difference between combustible chemical energy and noncombustible chemical energy.
Click to expand...
Again what is your point? Do you not understand the difference between a rapid, explosive release of thermal energy and a sslow, gradual release? The Incineration Cannon is an explosive thermal release via its antimatter munition. It is not a water balloon or feces dropping into a bowl of cold water....
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
Okay what are you even talking about? Again, you missed my point entirely. The rapid release of a huge amount of thermal energy, ten kilotons worth would produce a massive shockwave, overpressure. Why are you even bringing up a water balloon? I don't get why this is relevant at all whatsoever.

A slow and gradual release of thermal energy does not really produce any overpressure, that is correct. But that does not describe the Incineration cannon whatsoever. Thermal energy and overpressure are related, but not equivalent. But still, where do you think the kinetic energy from a shockwave after an explosion comes from? The rapid heated medium from the thermal release expands and creates the shockwave. Not all thermal energy translates to Overpressure, but a significant portion does. You cannot just decide arbitrarily that 0.0001% of the total thermal energy equates to a blast. That is not how a rapid thermal release works.

Again what is your point? Do you not understand the difference between a rapid, explosive release of thermal energy and a sslow, gradual release? The Incineration Cannon is an explosive thermal release via its antimatter munition. It is not a water balloon or feces dropping into a bowl of cold water....
Click to expand...
The point DarkDragon is trying to make, I think, is that in order to make these unofficial calculations, we have to use physics and math in order to achieve these results. Without them, we pretty much still doing guess estimates out of nothing.

Again, why else these calcs even exist?


There is a reason why the calculations exist in the first place. We need both physics and maths to make a estimate on the results of a feat otherwise it will fall apart without any foundation to rely on.
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
The point DarkDragon is trying to make, I think, is that in order to make these unofficial calculations, we have to use physics and math in order to achieve these results. Without them, we pretty much still doing guess estimates out of nothing.

Again, why else these calcs even exist?


There is a reason why the calculations exist in the first place. We need both physics and maths to make a estimate on the results of a feat otherwise it will fall apart without any foundation to rely on.
Click to expand...
I don't think you read my replies at all. Medeus is fundamentally misunderstanding how a rapid thermal release actually works. An explosive that releases ten kilotons of thermal energy rapidly WILL create a shockwave in a medium like atmosphere. That is not up for debate. The Warden Eternal for one only absorbing a Hundred Thousands of the energy from that point blank blast is not based in reality at all. It only makes sense in a Vacuum.

Medeus was literally comparing feces dropping in a toilet to an antimatter munition. Fundamentally misunderstanding the difference between a rapid, explosive release of energy and a slow, gradual release. I think I laid out my case reasonably well, so respectfully, please thoroughly read and understand before intervening.
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
I don't think you read my replies at all. Medeus is fundamentally misunderstand how a rapid thermal release actually works. An explosive that release ten kilotons of thermal energy rapidly WILL create a shockwave in a medium like atmosphere. That is not up for debate. The Warden Eternal for one only absorbing a Hundred Thousands of the energy from that point blank blast is not based in reality at all. It only makes sense in a Vacuum.

Medeus was literally comparing feces dropping in a toilet to an antimatter munition. Fundamentally misunderstanding the difference between a rapid, explosive release of energy and a slow, gradual release. I think I laid out my case reasonably well, so respectfully, please thoroughly read and understand before intervening.
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Oh that part. Honestly, though, the issue is also not factoring in the transfer of energy to object since you still factor in energy dispersal.

It is definitely fast for the Incineration, but problem probably lies in a theoretical scenario where we see a Incineration Cannon effectively destroys a Proto Grave mind.

Keep in mind, we never actually saw it in action so the results is up on the air regarding that part as I assume you doing the one shot method on a Proto Gravemind in a theoretical yet plausible scenario.

However, the results are instantaneous on small targets on the disintegration effect IIRC, but I not sure on the large targets like a Proto Gravemind or bigger in that case.

Probably take a few seconds at best perhaps on that, but again, theoretically plausible given the evidence provided
 
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