Halo: Master Chief and Spartans' revisions and downgrades

[VersusJunkie54]

Oh that part. Honestly, though, the issue is also not factoring in the transfer of energy to object since you still factor in energy dispersal.

It is definitely fast for the Incineration, but problem probably lies in a theoretical scenario where we see a Incineration Cannon effectively destroys a Proto Grave mind.

Keep in mind, we never actually saw it in action so the results is up on the air regarding that part as I assume you doing the one shot method on a Proto Gravemind in a theoretical yet plausible scenario.

However, the results are instantaneous on small targets on the disintegration effect IIRC, but I not sure on the large targets like a Proto Gravemind or bigger in that case.

Probably take a few seconds at best perhaps on that, but again, theoretically plausible given the evidence provided

In all fairness, Halo doesn't obey thermodynamics or explosion physics at all. All of the 9-A to 8-C plasma weapons would function more like high explosives than just soaking all of their energy into their target if it were at all realistic.

The uncharged plasma bolts for instance are 24 megajoules. That much energy in those little bolts carries far more potential energy density than an RPG-7 round, but of course Halo doesn't behave realistically.

My point is that trying to use emissivity to quantify this leads to a paradox, why would these weapons even be capable of the feats they are calculated at? This is why using the weapon's known blast radius with the inverse square law is the most reasonable middle ground.

But regardless, this discussion is theoretical. The calc has not been evaluated yet, but I am having this discussion because if this narrative persists, I foresee it being a huge issue later on.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

In all fairness, Halo doesn't obey thermodynamics or explosion physics at all. All of the 9-A to 8-C plasma weapons would function more like high explosives than just soaking all of their energy into their target if it were at all realistic.

Tbf, that isn’t entirely true otherwise we have to think about the fact the Rocket Launchers used throughout the Halo Franchise as well as plasma weaponry overheating. Now I think about it, plasma weaponry overheating isn’t impossible and the games has shown that is the case. However, explosion physics isn’t needed for the plasma weapons if memories serve me right. It is more theoretical physics as there is a branch that involved the more theoretical kind if memories serve me right.

That and I am pretty sure we have velocity on some plasma weaponry do we not?

While it is true fiction doesn’t strictly follow the laws of physics (like at all), we unironically still needs some physics and maths otherwise we have nothing to calculate on

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Tbf, that isn’t entirely true otherwise we have to think about the fact the Rocket Launchers used throughout the Halo Franchise as well as plasma weaponry overheating. Now I think about it, plasma weaponry overheating isn’t impossible and the games has shown that is the case. However, explosion physics isn’t needed for the plasma weapons if memories serve me right. It is more theoretical physics as there is a branch that involved the more theoretical kind if memories serve me right.

Sure it does for the conventional explosives we see (if we ignore Archer missiles, and UNSC grenades are baby nukes).

But I am correct regarding plasma weapons as in how they would behave realistically if you could somehow dump so much energy into one bolt as to exceed the potential energy density of TNT, but no we don't need them for the smaller ones. But for the ones that have a blast radius? I think we do to some extent in order to quantify them.

You might like this video.

That and I am pretty sure we have velocity on some plasma weaponry do we not?

We generally do.

While it is true fiction doesn’t strictly follow the laws of physics (like at all), we unironically still needs some physics and maths otherwise we have nothing to calculate on

You are right, but we also have to consider what is correct and consistent in the verse. Calculating the plasma grenades via emissivity for instance nets 87 kilojoules at 2 meters away, so Unarmoured Spartans could survive that. But we know that this is not how plasma weaponry works in Halo at all. Plasma Grenades would be completely worthless if they only dumped like 0.00001% of their energy into their target.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

ignore Archer missiles, and UNSC grenades

Those two ain’t except from this given the fact the explosions still occur from those two weaponry . Also speaking of the Frag Grenades, it has shrapnels last I checked. Something a modern day grenade does have to ensure some lethal results

emissivity

As for this part, I think DarkDragon is confused as the definition for emissivity doesn’t apply for any weapons both irl or fiction for that matter.

“Emissivity is defined as the ratio of the energy radiated from a material's surface to that radiated from a perfect emitter, known as a blackbody, at the same temperature and wavelength and under the same viewing conditions.”

What is emissivity and why is it important?

What is emissivity? All objects at temperatures above absolute zero emit thermal radiation.

www.npl.co.uk

Which wouldn’t have any combat applications I think outside of non combat applications

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Those two ain’t except from this given the fact the explosions still occur from those two weaponry . Also speaking of the Frag Grenades, it has shrapnels last I checked. Something a modern day grenade does have to ensure some lethal results

Sorry I phrased that poorly. I mean that those two have some ridiculously potent potential energy, and are consistent. The UNSC must have some magical unobtanium explosive compound.

As for this part, I think DarkDragon is confused as the definition for emissivity doesn’t apply for any weapons both irl or fiction for that matter.

“Emissivity is defined as the ratio of the energy radiated from a material's surface to that radiated from a perfect emitter, known as a blackbody, at the same temperature and wavelength and under the same viewing conditions.”

What is emissivity and why is it important?

What is emissivity? All objects at temperatures above absolute zero emit thermal radiation.

www.npl.co.uk

Which wouldn’t have any combat applications I think outside of non combat applications

DarkDragonMedeus was actually correct to refute my awful calculation from years back about Master Chief facing an explosion in Vacuum. That was pure emissivity without a medium to produce an overpressure wave.

Emissivity would also apply if the Covenant had some sort of plasma flamethrower, which tbh it is a shame that was never a thing in the game. That would've been rad in my opinion.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Emissivity would also apply if the Covenant had some sort of plasma flamethrower, which tbh it is a shame that was never a thing in the game

Oh, right, that would probably applied for a plasma flamethrower, but I am pretty sure don’t the UNSC have some chemical flamethrowers in their arsenal?

Well, either way, this thread has become way bloated beyonds its intended purpose and we gonna need a new thread for a reevaluation of all feats we got on hand

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There are bits and pieces on either side, while 10 Kilotons of thermal energy usually would generate some degree of overpressure sure; especially if it's condensed into a small AoE. But thermal energy still has a drive where it basically actively expands and it's often difficult to compress it into a smaller target. I know a solid example is this video. Some internal parts getting vaporized and cause a thermal nuclear reaction, where some parts becoming gas and a container not having enough open space to contain it causes an explosion. And same sort of thing happens when water going through a pipe freezes. So I get what you're saying regarding those examples.

But thermal energy isn't exactly 1:1 with overpressure. And heat wave collision doesn't behave like overpressure does. In a typical explosion, the reason ISL is used is because explosions work in the way that initial velocity is significantly faster than velocity of it by the time explosions expand. Hence why their are typically no downgrades if the explosive was covered or contained when it detonated, but being considerable distance from the epic center changes things, with further away effecting them. But thermal energy doesn't entirely behave like that and often times, even being being really close to the epic center doesn't change a lot of things. Simply touching thermal energy doesn't really mean their body absorbs it automatically; and often times, most of it simply bounces off. Blackbody objects typically absorb large quantities of it when channeled and directed, but white body objects and shiny colored objects typically repels most of it without requiring much durability to tank it. And again, as I mentioned before, humans literally extract chemicals from their body that contain well over 5 * 10^5 more thermal energy than the overpressure being generated from releasing them. So an object with 10 Kilotons of thermal energy could still only be less than 20 kilograms of overpressure.

And that appears to especially be the case for more Promethean weapons; Binary Rifles fire hard light bullets that don't seem to generate that much more force or have that much better firing ranges than, while also not being that much heavier than regular bullets. But the internal anti-matter particles cause deconstruction and ends up ionizing targets when they pierce the skin/armor and get inside them. Incineration Cannons also have similar properties save them being Rocket Launchers as opposed to bullets. Hence why AoE is better and by extension the AP via vaporization is all the more impressive, but force it generates it still similar in scale to rockets similar to hardlight bullets having similar force to ballistics.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

tically; and often times, most of it simply bounces off. Blackbody objects typically absorb large quantities of it when channeled and directed, but white body objects and shiny colored objects typically repels most of it without requiring much durability to tank it

Oh that is more understandable as I got confused for a moment. Well, other than me going a bit dumbo there, I thinking we gonna need a new thread given how it originally meant to been a downgrade which turns into consistency and upgrades after pages of discussion .

 

[VersusJunkie54]

There are bits and pieces on either side, while 10 Kilotons of thermal energy usually would generate some degree of overpressure sure; especially if it's condensed into a small AoE. But thermal energy still has a drive where it basically actively expands and it's often difficult to compress it into a smaller target. I know a solid example is this video. Some internal parts getting vaporized and cause a thermal nuclear reaction, where some parts becoming gas and a container not having enough open space to contain it causes an explosion. And same sort of thing happens when water going through a pipe freezes. So I get what you're saying regarding those examples.

I hate to break it to you Medeus, but that still is not comparable at all. You are comparing things that are completely irrelevant to explosives unfathomably higher in scale. Molten Salt in Water /=/ a 10 kiloton release in atmosphere.

But thermal energy isn't exactly 1:1 with overpressure.

That is correct, but you are over vulgarizing this.

And heat wave collision doesn't behave like overpressure does. In a typical explosion, the reason ISL is used is because explosions work in the way that initial velocity is significantly faster than velocity of it by the time explosions expand. Hence why their are typically no downgrades if the explosive was covered or contained when it detonated, but being considerable distance from the epic center changes things, with further away effecting them. But thermal energy doesn't entirely behave like that and often times, even being being really close to the epic center doesn't change a lot of things.

Okay I am going to make this simple for you. A nuclear explosion releases its energy purely as thermal, and electromagnetic in a Vacuum. But what happens when all of that heat runs into a dense medium like atmosphere in nanoseconds?

Simply touching thermal energy doesn't really mean their body absorbs it automatically; and often times, most of it simply bounces off. Blackbody objects typically absorb large quantities of it when channeled and directed, but white body objects and shiny colored objects typically repels most of it without requiring much durability to tank it. And again, as I mentioned before, humans literally extract chemicals from their body that contain well over 5 * 10^5 more thermal energy than the overpressure being generated from releasing them. So an object with 10 Kilotons of thermal energy could still only be less than 20 kilograms of overpressure.

You would be correct if this was in a Vacuum but again, this is not how an explosive release of thermal energy works. What do you think happens when a tenth of a gram of antimatter annihilates in atmosphere? And you are still comparing completely irrelevant things. 10 Kilotons of energy releasing in micro/nanoseconds WILL transfer a massive amount of thermal energy into KE of the medium.

I'm going to keep it real with you Medeus. Even ChatGPT grasps this.

And that appears to especially be the case for more Promethean weapons; Binary Rifles fire hard light bullets that don't seem to generate that much more force or have that much better firing ranges than, while also not being that much heavier than regular bullets. But the internal anti-matter particles cause deconstruction and ends up ionizing targets when they pierce the skin/armor and get inside them. Incineration Cannons also have similar properties save them being Rocket Launchers as opposed to bullets. Hence why AoE is better and by extension the AP via vaporization is all the more impressive, but force it generates it still similar in scale to rockets similar to hardlight bullets having similar force to ballistics.

I'm confused what your point is here. Are you again implying a paradox that they aren't even capable of the feats they are calculated at?

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Oh that is more understandable as I got confused for a moment. Well, other than me going a bit dumbo there, I thinking we gonna need a new thread given how it originally meant to been a downgrade which turns into consistency and upgrades after pages of discussion .

Calculation blogs are still awaiting evaluations by the way.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Yeah, that is true, but regardless, best to make a new thread as no one else will take a in depth look here aside from the OP anyway

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Yeah, that is true, but regardless, best to make a new thread as no one else will take a in depth look here aside from the OP anyway

I've already started drafting a new OP, but it's incomplete. I suppose we could add to it as we go?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I suppose so, but we gonna have to organize all these feats into one coherent list because oh boi, it is a lot to go through anyway

 

[VersusJunkie54]

I suppose so, but we gonna have to organize all these feats into one coherent list because oh boi, it is a lot to go through anyway

I will share what I have so far in your DMs. Stand by.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So, any conclusions yet or are we still waiting on the calcs to be approved before doing anything else?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

So, any conclusions yet or are we still waiting on the calcs to be approved before doing anything else?

It seems like some of the calcs has been approved according to the DM Versus sent me, but the Incinerator Cannon and a few others hasn’t been evaluated yet

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So are we gonna start from the ground up in a new thread since this one is now obsolete or...?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

So are we gonna start from the ground up in a new thread since this one is now obsolete or...?

Oh yeah, definitely