Gigantic Animal Man Revision

[Yobo_Blue]

Okay, so I'll probably make a draft in order to fully sum things up in terms of what this revision entails.

On the subject of the Animal Masters tier, it's heavily implied that after Morrison and The yellow/green aliens finished, it was them who took over rather than another Writer avatar. This is supported by the fact that while they are in power, the yellow aliens become false illusions that never existed despite being real before and after their time, as well as the heavy implication they were not affected by Morrison's retcons.

Take that as you will.

 

[Andytrenom]

Apologies, but I really don't think you should be bringing that up here

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Also, in the interview used as justification for the Writer, Morrison mentions that the idea of Limbo and the Overvoid has been something touched on and present in his Animal Man run and that the concepts he used in Final Crisis and Superman Beyond were present there as well, so take that as you will as well.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Also, after looking stuff over, I do agree he hasn't the capacity to copy humans, but it's clear he's best with animals.

 

[Antvasima]

He didn't establish the full nature of the overvoid until around 20 years later. I think that it is very unreliable to scale from it.

Let's focus on the new abilities and the universe creation feat instead.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

May I ask what true nature you are referring to?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I personally wouldn't rely on what the author had written up until that point, considering the fluid nature of Morrison's continuity system and retcons. It would be a very poor idea, as it could lead into nastily butting heads with our authorial intent Rules in some cases, even if not here.

 

[Antvasima]

I just mean that we cannot scale Animal Man to tier 1-A or 0 entities.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Obviously not Tier 0, but considering the nature of their feats both during and after Morrison, I think a 1-A or at least a Unknown rating should be considered. However, I will make a draft to summarize the changes and the tiering that I think are fair based on the feats.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I think some of his abilities are clearly connected to the void. If the panels of the stories of DC aren't on the overvoid then what void are they on?

Even if you say it isn't the overvoid it's still an affinity with some sort of void.

1-A abilities doesn't mean his Attack Potency is 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

What would be the basis for placing his powers as 1-A? It seems like an enormous inconsistency if it is even reliable and not dependent on lots of interpretation.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I fail to see how it's a enormous inconsistency. There are numerous feats presented above which can reach into that level, even ignoring Morrison's run, and it's not like there isn't precedent for the abstracts of Red and Green having the capacity to be 1-A, considering Swamp Thing nearly reached a level above the Presence, as noted on the profile of the former. Doctor Fate (Classic) and The Phantom Stranger (Post-Crisis) both considered him a potentially powerful individual before unlocking the level of a Animal Master. Most low showings are explicitly explained as the direct work of Writer avatars as well.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

It's one thing to say the feats themselves are not 1-A or of Outerversal potency, but there isn't any other real counter argument to consistency so far other than "he's a background character occasionally", which I'm fairly certain happens to Swamp Thing (Classic) quite a bit.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you list and explain his 1-A feats in an easily understood manner please? Scans/evidence should be included.

If he was really that powerful, I don't see how he would have problems with any adversaries whatsoever in any stories that he has appeared in afterwards though.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean he doesn't exactly show up and fight often.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Can you list and explain his 1-A feats in an easily understood manner please? Scans/evidence should be included.

If he was really that powerful, I don't see how he would have problems with any adversaries whatsoever in any stories that he has appeared in afterwards though.

I'll respond to this in a bit.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I mean he doesn't exactly show up and fight often.

Yeah. Most of his comic focuses on his family life, his philosophy, and his fear of humanity's self destructive tendencies rather than actual power.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

BFR to the void is called 1-A BFR because of someone is sent within the void and cannot comeback without 1-A range. Only people like Lucifer and so can freely fly through the void. I think it's definitely implied to be the overvoid because of Grant Morrisons depiction for it to be paper. I don't see what else "middle-ground" could be except paper.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

It's outright stated to be the Overvoid in Morrison's interview, which is currently being used to supply ratings for the tier 0s.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Also, Ant, I know you wanted scans, but since the Animal Man line was part of Vertigo, some of the scans may be slightly more NSFW than the wiki normally deals with. Is that okay with you?

 

[Antvasima]

Simply walking around in a blank page in a metafiction story is obviously no more of a 1-A feat than when Sue-Hulk, Deadpool, Gwenpool, or any other character does so. Sorry, but that is definitely not going to be accepted, and I am too tired and busy to extensively argue about this.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Simply walking around in a blank page in a metafiction story is obviously no more of a 1-A feat than when Sue-Hulk, Deadpool, Gwenpool, or any other character does so. Sorry, but that is definitely not going to be accepted, and I am too tired and busy to extensively argue about this.

I don't think that was the reason for 1-A power Ant......

 

[Antvasima]

Just focus on adding the new abilities and scaling from the universe creation feat, so we can finally close this thread, rather than waste everybody's time.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think that was the reason for 1-A power Ant......

So what is it then? Sorry if I am grouchy, but I am tired and in a bad mood.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

It was the Grant Morrison void depiction being paper.

 

[Antvasima]

That doesn't matter. Animal Man must be clearly defined to be of a beyond-dimensional nature and scale of power.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

That actually wasn't it. As I said, I will summarize in a bit.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Also, Ant, I know you wanted scans, but since the Animal Man line was part of Vertigo, some of the scans may be slightly more NSFW than the wiki normally deals with. Is that okay with you?

This is more of a precaution, but I should probably know this if you want any productivity to occur here Ant.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you can upload them outside of the wiki, and link to them here. Otherwise Fandom might block you. Nothing pornographic or torture-oriented though.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I think most scans can be have.... unnecessary bits.... cropped out, but I will keep that in mind.

 

[Antvasima]

Use your common sense and only link to genuinely good evidence though. Don't drag this out even more than it needs to be. I would personally prefer to close this thread at this point.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Perhaps that might not be the best course of action, considering what happened with the Swamp Thing threads

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Agreed. I just want us to stay focused on getting things done. Sorry if I am being grouchy. I am tired and depressed.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Obviously, we are not looking to rate Animal Man as 1-A himself. This would be a similar case to Molecule Ma, who himself is 10-B but whose powers and feats are both presented to be cosmic levels outside of what he himself is actually in a physical sense.

First of all, it is important to note there will be two keys, denoting Morrison and Post-Morrison runs, as the Morrison avatar himself directly made changes to the continuity of reality at the end of his run. While both are explicitly noted to include cosmic concepts on such a level, only his Post-Morrison portrayal would have anything that could qualify as 1-A in AP.

On the subject of it being Metafiction, not only is it not the best argument in any case really, but it's especially poor in terms of the cosmology of Animal Man and by extension DC Comics. Animal Man's story is only metafiction in any sense during the Morrison Run, and outside of that it is merely the usual cosmic occurrences seen in the Vertigo line. In addition, while some verses like the one's you mentioned aren't necessarily applicable, we already break the Metafiction rules when it comes to DC Cosmology due to how intertwined it is with cosmology, and there are very few places where that is as true as in Morrison's Animal Man run.


On the subject of inconsistency, even if we were to take into account author intent, Animal Man has always been written to have cosmic levels of power. If you are looking for specific feats that this revision and those in it have placed on this level for the second key, there would be:

• The fact that the Red exists as a collection of Platonic forms, and has a true nature above even that which reaches into the three secrets of creation

• The Red encompasses the implicate order which contains all possibilities and which all possible worlds imagined by humanity are a mere attempts to describe

• The Animal Master's enemy that was defeated had a material expression that encompassed all reality and unreality in its nature. It exists as the ultimate antithesis to all of creation and couldn't be defeated by anything sans the M-Field. All Creation would have been consumed by him, and existed before unreality and reality.

• The Red extends further beyond and can reach into the existence that existed before the aforementioned Antigo which was truly timeless and placeless.

• The Animal Masters are heavily implied to have taken over in the place of Morriso. In addition, they are unaffected by the retcon and know of Morrison despite him having made his entire appearance and all events that occurred within it into a dream.

• While they are in power, the Yellow Aliens become false fiction

• The Phantom Stranger (Post-Crisis) and Doctor Fate (Classic) felt his power was necessary in a Unholy battle between the pantheons

• The Red encompasses the world tree, whose top level is an existence transcendent of all human understanding and equivalent to Heave

• The Red encompasses the world soul which encompasses many higher dimensions and is described as the body and soul of God.

• The Spider Queen, who spins her web into the world soul, the higher dimensional Imaginal Axioms which encompass all things ever conceived of by humanity, and all of time and space, is merely a small part of The Red

• Using the Red, Animal Man achieved the spiritual state of body of God and gained the true understanding of divinity and humanity

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Goddamn it Animal Ma

 

[PsychoWarper]

Goddamn it Animal Man </div>

• Grant Morrison

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Tom Veitch.

 

[PsychoWarper]

This is why SUPER SUPER meta stories are bad.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

It wasn't even that meta after Morrison, just overly cosmic.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Well we are dicussing and giving Animal Man a Morrison key.