DC Crisis Cosmology: Update — Source & Great Darkness

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

You completely missed my point. Only being able to refer to itself through the presence of light doesn't negate or disqualify the attribute of being self referential. After all, it's still referring itself through the presence of another. If your idea is differ, tell me why you have to be independent to refer yourself.

You don't. That's not what self-referential is as along as the reference is back to oneself. He has a weird notion that self-referential must mean that no other source can reference you and you must be the reference itself which is ridiculous.

 

[Averroes1]

You completely missed my point. Only being able to refer to itself through the presence of light doesn't negate or disqualify the attribute of being self referential. After all, it's still referring itself through the presence of another. If your idea is differ, tell me why you have to be independent to refer yourself.

Well no, to me that doesn't seem to work with either that scan or what we know about the creation origin story of the DCU. The Darkness back in COIE was incapable of differentiating itself from any 'other', and as such with the appearance of the light it then became capable of doing so by establishing a sense of self that individuates it from anything at all in general, and the light in particular. This is prudently why the light now existing solely to 'refer to itself', is not created from the darkness–an insight that, I should note, Joshua Williamson agrees with–but is the product of something that was capable of referring to itself by itself and not through another.

 

[Weaver261]

Well no, to me that doesn't seem to work with either that scan or what we know about the creation origin story of the DCU. The Darkness back in COIE was incapable of differentiating itself from any 'other', and as such with the appearance of the light it then became capable of doing so by establishing a sense of self that individuates it from anything at all in general, and the light in particular. This is prudently why the light now existing solely to 'refer to itself', is not created from the darkness–an insight that, I should note, Joshua Williamson agrees with–but is the product of something that was capable of referring to itself by itself and not through another.

That doesn't disquality the relational self-referencing. Multiple philosophies suggest people can only refer themselves throught the existence of another. There's nothing that state the light is self referential at all. That's just your assumption. In crisis on infinite earth, TGD said

"Before light, I was endless, without name or need of name. Then light came. Witnessing its otherness, I suffered my first knowledge of self."

It becomes aware of itself after referring itself through the existence of light. Self referential doesn't need to be indepentent. Show me a proof if you can. Moreover, it's not just self referential, it's self referential void. Void mean nothingness and emptiness.

Much as the Source manifests in life and in death--as creation, imagination--the darkness that it shattered, though undetected by my studies, must manifest through similar means. A theoretical antithesis-uncreation, the absence of idea. Not in opposition to life, but in opposition to existence.

The great darkness is the absence of idea, opposition to existence. In JLI #4, it's said that in the beginning, nothing and everything are the same because everything is nothingness. Then, the light came. That everything becomes no longer nothing. The light is something, be it life, be it imagination, be it creation, it's something that isn't nothing. But the great darkness is opposite to all of that. It's the absence of all of that. Thus it's a void. The light can't be self referential void becuz it's not nothingness but rather something

 

[Elizio33]

Okay so, where's the Presence? You said " the relatinship between Presence and Source " and provided relationship between God and Source? + you said " Presence aka God or Creator " but didn't provided specific evidence of it getting mentioned as?

"God" or "The Creator" has always been synonymous with the Presence in DC, they are just different names. The Presence is based on God in the Bible who created the light in the darkness at the beginning of creation, and DC took some aspects and applied them to their cosmology.

We can see this in Final Crisis: Revelations, where the narrative says that in the beginning the Earth was without form and void and darkness was on the upon the face of the deep, and God said, "Let there be light!" and there was light. The Presence was always associated with God. Here's an interview in which Greg Rucka said: "The sort of unspoken rule in the DCU is that Judeo-Christian God sits above all others." and who is often associated with the Judeo-Christian God in DC Comics ? It is The Presence.

 

[Averroes1]

Multiple philosophies suggest people can only refer themselves throught the existence of another.

That's not true though, that's sort-of the exact opposite of what a self-reference is. Only examples of what you're talking about is in the case of an indirect self-reference: such as a proposition A which is the negation of ~A, which in turn, would just be A, which makes it so A indirectly makes a reference to itself by the existence of another, in this case ~A. And this clearly only works on paper any way.

Self referential doesn't need to be indepentent. Show me a proof if you can.

I'm unsure what 'independence' here would be, but yes, it's pretty easy to refer to oneself by oneself. Say the pronoun 'I'.

As to why in this case self-reference cannot apply to the darkness: because the scan itself says that the darkness is incapable of referring to oneself without the presence of another (as proven by COIE).

 

[Averroes1]

If your argument from before is the sudden arbitrariness of mentioning some self-referential void and then mentioning the darkness right after despite a clear contradiction in what that would imply, then that's understandable frankly, since narratively it would seem random to go about discursively recounting the origin story of the DCU that way.

 

[Weaver261]

That's not true though, that's sort-of the exact opposite of what a self-reference is. Only examples of what you're talking about is in the case of an indirect self-reference: such as a proposition A which is the negation of ~A, which in turn, would just be A, which makes it so A indirectly makes a reference to itself by the existence of another, in this case ~A. And this clearly only works on paper any way.

As to why in this case self-reference cannot apply to the darkness: because the scan itself says that the darkness is incapable of referring to oneself without the presence of another (as proven by COIE).

You are missing the main point again. Whether it's indirect self-reference or something, it's still referencing itself. That's what matter here. The great darkness isn't incapable of referring to oneself but doesn't have the need to do so. It existed since long before the light came. When the light came, it gained the awareness and the ability to refer to itself.

self-reference also refers to the ability of a subject to speak of or refer to itself

You are disagreeing with me by saing TGD isn't self referential void but rather the light. I've already showed you why the light can't be a void. Because it's something that isn't nothing. Just because it's stated as "self referential" doesn't mean it can't be indirect self referential because indirect self referential also fall under the category of self referencing.

 

[Averroes1]

The great darkness isn't incapable of referring to oneself but doesn't have the need to do so.

It is indeed incapable of referring to itself before the Light, hence why it didn't have a self, so no, I disagree there as well on the basis of what we know.

I've already showed you why the light can't be a void. Because it's something that isn't nothing.

I didn't address this but yeah, I think the Light is the product of a void referring to itself, inasmuch as that it's clearly a reference to nothing (meaningless) bringing about everything (all meaning) through self-contemplation.

 

[Weaver261]

It is indeed incapable of referring to itself

"Before light, I was endless, without name or need of name. Then light came. Witnessing its otherness, I suffered my first knowledge of self."

Not incapable but rather didn't have the need to do so since everything was The Great Darkness before. If you want to view that incapability, that's fine too. It's just word play.

I didn't address this but yeah, I think the Light is the product of a void referring to itself, inasmuch as that it's clearly a reference to nothing (meaningless) bringing about everything (all meaning) through self-contemplation.

That void is the great darkness as I've explained. Thus, the self referential void is referring to the great darkness in this context.

 

[Averroes1]

Not incapable but rather didn't have the need to do so since everything was The Great Darkness before. If you want to view that incapability, that's fine too. It's just word play.

Sure, but yeah to me that just implies it didn't even have a sense of self beforehand, therefore was completely static nothingness.

That void is the great darkness as I've explained. Thus, the self referential void is referring to the great darkness in this context.

I disagree due to aforementioned reasons.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

It’s answered by the notion “total darkness is defined as the absence of light.” Which is referring to when all was darkness where the only reference of the darkness was itself ie “self-referential void.” That's why the Source is a “product” of that same Void ie the Source emerging from the Dark to which now a presence that's in opposition of Dark can be used as a “reference” to it.

At that point it is neither “total darkness” nor “self-referential.”

There's no hole. You needed extra clarification. I put it in the most simple terms up above.

Lol, It's kind of head-canon, Self-referential Void is Self-referential void. The Great Darkness can only be defined as total absense of light, cuz Total darkness is The Great Darkness. U are making your own head-canons like " TGD was self-referential void because Light is the only reference that Tgd can make " meanwhile, narratives applied completely different. I agree with @NHTkenshin2

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Sure, but yeah to me that just implies it didn't even have a sense of self beforehand, therefore was completely static nothingness.


I disagree due to aforementioned reasons.

same because, the definition of TGD's just absense of light and opposite of Light/Source, Writer re-confirmed it.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

"God" or "The Creator" has always been synonymous with the Presence in DC, they are just different names. The Presence is based on God in the Bible who created the light in the darkness at the beginning of creation, and DC took some aspects and applied them to their cosmology.

I think u are misunderstanding the whole point, Jack Kirby's comics are also based on bible. And, He directly stated the Source is all encompassing, including us and unknowable mystery. So, what's mystery? Mystery of the Source is Omnipotent in all wise. Which identically links Source as unknowable God, Kirby also uses some kind of Jewish bible's elements, when Izaya went to the desert field of waste land, he discovered mysterical element that can communite with Source, When he figured out, the Source manifested itself as a flamming hand. Which recalled an idea of Moses discovered ten commandments at the top of mountain. Not only that, New Genesis based on the Genesis of bible, New Genesis were lightened by the light that emerged from Darkness.

We can see this in Final Crisis: Revelations, where the narrative says that in the beginning the Earth was without form and void and darkness was on the upon the face of the deep, and God said, "Let there be light!" and there was light. The Presence was always associated with God. Here's an interview in which Greg Rucka said: "The sort of unspoken rule in the DCU is that Judeo-Christian God sits above all others." and who is often associated with the Judeo-Christian God in DC Comics ? It is The Presence.

Right now, I'll attempt to debunk that case, As I said above Source also existed as the Christianity God or Jewish's Holy One. the scans that u provided are tones of misconceptions as far as I see,

Firstly, the word of " Let there be light " appeared after the earth and heaven. So, the sources or existences of living things emerged after Earth and Heavens. Theses sources prob could be life. Now, we are getting into important case, Blackest Nights directly stated " Life appeared on earth first " which indirectly linked to the scan that Elizio provided, later the life entity ( the white light of creation that gave birth to universe/multiverse ) was directly manifested as " Let there be light " by someone. So, the key point I'd like to point about Elizio provided is " Heaven and Earth ", we all know Heaven and Earth existed within Multiverse. So, going back to Life entity, Life entity was directly linked to Lord Order which are the forces that directly came from Source. Secondly, Life entity is Life and Life was emerged by God's wave which is part of The Source and described it as " Power of the presence ". Which identically proved they both are same being.

Thirdly, u might question " Let there be light also manifested Source in the eternal darkness ". Yea it's true but it doesn't related with the scan that Elizio provided, the scan that Elizio provided are talking about how White light of creation was appeared through the multiverse after heaven and earth was formed. So, " Let there be light " to Source still existed but different with this one, in essense, there' two kind of let there be light, one happend in multiverse and one happend in darkness and I'd like to say that " let there be light " could be metaphorically reference, Current canon stated that the almight of God/self-referential void generated Source on the totality of darkness. I personally see Void/God manifested Source on the daarkness but different interpretations on different aspect of writer on their theological viewpoints. However, Source = Presence won't change.

 

[Elizio33]

While it is true that The Source is part of the Christian context, it is nevertheless The Presence that is most often associated with the God of the Abrahamic religion and it is an unspoken rule that in DC, the Judeo-Christian God sits above all others.

 

[Elizio33]

So the hierarchy should be:

The Creator > The Great Darkness >= The Creator's Emanation/The Source

 

[Elizio33]

@DarkDragonMedeus @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Deagonx your help would be appreciated.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

While it is true that The Source is part of the Christian context, it is nevertheless The Presence that is most often associated with the God of the Abrahamic religion and it is an unspoken rule that in DC, the Judeo-Christian God sits above all others.

I've already provided that, Source sits as Christianity's God or Jewish's God. You must know that Abrahamic God was used to describe supreme being of God sphere, rather than supreme being of all DC. A single writer's interpretation doesn't compared to the material printed evidences. Judo-Christianity God isn't supreme being, If it's so, Judo-Christianity God would be an aspect of true Supreme being.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

So the hierarchy should be:

The Creator > The Great Darkness >= The Creator's Emanation/The Source

True, but Creator's Emanation/Source = Presence

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Lol, It's kind of head-canon, Self-referential Void is Self-referential void. The Great Darkness can only be defined as total absense of light, cuz Total darkness is The Great Darkness. U are making your own head-canons like " TGD was self-referential void because Light is the only reference that Tgd can make " meanwhile, narratives applied completely different. I agree with @NHTkenshin2

Agree with him all you want, he's not going to determine anything.

 

[Elizio33]

I've already provided that, Source sits as Christianity's God or Jewish's God. You must know that Abrahamic God was used to describe supreme being of God sphere, rather than supreme being of all DC. A single writer's interpretation doesn't compared to the material printed evidences. Judo-Christianity God isn't supreme being, If it's so, Judo-Christianity God would be an aspect of true Supreme being.

Many stories agree that the Judeo-Christian God is the God of the DCU and has emanations or aspects through which he acts or speaks to his servants or mortals within the Multiverse, but whatever. Let's leave that aside as we both agree that there is indeed one supreme entity that stands above all others, even the Great Darkness.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Many stories agree that the Judeo-Christian God is the God of the DCU and has emanations, but whatever. Let's leave that aside as we both agree that there is indeed one supreme entity that stands above all others, even the Great Darkness.

That scan which isn't from an actual story so its inapplicable anyways. It literally said “true Creator” as in not the creator of the Multiverse which was Perpetua. They're taking that as if “he's not supreme” not in the sense that he wasn't the actual creator of it. This also denotes clearly, that the “Creator” is a title and Perpetua only did so because she used the Presence’s “energy.” That scan doesn't debunk anything as he claims it does.

 

[Elizio33]

What I agree on is that the Source is the same as The Voice/Word which is a very common emanation of God.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Many stories agree that the Judeo-Christian God is the God of the DCU and has emanations or aspects through which he acts or speaks to his servants or mortals within the Multiverse, but whatever. Let's leave that aside as we both agree that there is indeed one supreme entity that stands above all others, even the Great Darkness.

Many stories didn't suggested Judo-Christianity God as Supreme being of all DC, let there be light or genesis based origins are occurred in Perpetua's multiverse since the voice isn't above multiverse level. Let there be light actually referred to the origin of Life entity/White Light Of Creation. Source/Light could be metaphorical descriptions which are based on Writer's interpretations.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Many stories didn't suggested Judo-Christianity God as Supreme being of all DC, let there be light or genesis based origins are occurred in Perpetua's multiverse since the voice isn't above multiverse level. Let there be light actually referred to the origin of Life entity/White Light Of Creation. Source/Light could be metaphorical descriptions which are based on Writer's interpretations.

Your scans literally doesn't say anything on the lines of “The Voice isn't above Multiverse level.” It just says its a common manifestation of the Presence to interact metaphysically in the lower realms.

Also, don't start making new theories. Life Entitiy being the Light was not said anywhere, but more so makes less sense than all your previous points.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Your scans literally doesn't say anything on the lines of “The Voice isn't above Multiverse level.” It just says its a common manifestation of the Presence to interact metaphysically in the lower realms.

Also, don't start making new theories. Life Entitiy being the Light was not said anywhere, but more so makes less sense than all your previous points.

Okay, I'll address everything specifically at night since I'm at school.

 

[Weaver261]

Many stories didn't suggested Judo-Christianity God as Supreme being of all DC, let there be light or genesis based origins are occurred in Perpetua's multiverse since the voice isn't above multiverse level. Let there be light actually referred to the origin of Life entity/White Light Of Creation. Source/Light could be metaphorical descriptions which are based on Writer's interpretations.

Also I've been wanting to say that, the life entity being called "Let there be light" was more of a reference rather than being biblically accurate since there's literally no connection to chistianity at all. But the light that was in duality with The great darkness is biblically accurate since the light came out of Heaven when TGD invades in Crisis on infinite earths.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Also I've been wanting to say that, the life entity being called "Let there be light" was more of a reference rather than being biblically accurate since there's literally no connection to chistianity at all. But the light that was in duality with The great darkness is biblically accurate since the light came out of Heaven when TGD invades in Crisis on infinite earths.

Apologies for not being able to provide scans. The Life Entity is intricately linked to the Source, God's Wave, and God's Sphere. The timeline of Life parallels the process described in New Genesis, where light illuminated creation. In New Gods Vol. 1 #7, it is explicitly stated that the New Gods were initially formless but later took shape through lightning. This same lightning connects directly to the scriptural phrase, 'God created heaven and earth, and then said, Let there be light.' Notably, Earth and Heaven were created first, with light following afterward. Don't forget that, New Genesis is based on Bible's Genesis origin and Jack Kirby based all of his characters on Bible. I'd like u to provide a scan about Light of creation emerged from Heaven.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Your scans literally doesn't say anything on the lines of “The Voice isn't above Multiverse level.” It just says its a common manifestation of the Presence to interact metaphysically in the lower realms.

Also, don't start making new theories. Life Entitiy being the Light was not said anywhere, but more so makes less sense than all your previous points.

the sentence of ( see Presence, The ) at the end of Voice's information suggests that the voice and Presence are directly linking. When we check the information about Presence, the, we can clearly see that Presence that's only Supreme in multiverse manifested Voice, which implies that the voice only rotate inside the multiverse since, Presence itself doesn't compared to greater omniverse.

it seems like you didn't read the comic clearly, The life entity was meant to be living light of creation that's triggered universe to existed and when let there be light was spoke, Life entity appeared. Not only that lanterns corps summon Life entity by saying " Let there be light " during the series. Not only at all, it directly describes Life entity as Light that embodies every existences and encompasses everything as well. + it directly described as Light that appeared on darkness.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

That scan which isn't from an actual story so its inapplicable anyways. It literally said “true Creator” as in not the creator of the Multiverse which was Perpetua. They're taking that as if “he's not supreme” not in the sense that he wasn't the actual creator of it. This also denotes clearly, that the “Creator” is a title and Perpetua only did so because she used the Presence’s “energy.” That scan doesn't debunk anything as he claims it does.

The Presence was meant to be same level with Source in Death Metal, actual story never applied Presence as Supreme being of DC + Presence is supreme arbiter of multiverse and some believed Presence is creator of multiverse because Origin of Perpetua was unknown in that time and Presence is the manifestation of Source which keep multiverse balanced, created some relams in God's sphere after Perpetua getting imprisoned.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

In conclusion, I totally disagree about Great Darkness being Self referential void due to the definition of Great Darkness or Total Darkness is an absence of light rather than Self-referential void that can only be referred itself through one another.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

the sentence of ( see Presence, The ) at the end of Voice's information suggests that the voice and Presence are directly linking. When we check the information about Presence, the, we can clearly see that Presence that's only Supreme in multiverse manifested Voice, which implies that the voice only rotate inside the multiverse since, Presence itself doesn't compared to greater omniverse.

No, while I don't deny the Voice and the Presence are linked. Their relationship is summed up as manifestation(The Voice) and source of said manifestation(The Presence).

I fully disagree that the Voice is limited to the Multiverse due to the fact the scan never mentions it. It is more likely the on the level of the Cosmic Raptor whom surpasses Perpetua while argument can be made for higher.

it seems like you didn't read the comic clearly, The life entity was meant to be living light of creation that's triggered universe to existed and when let there be light was spoke, Life entity appeared. Not only that lanterns corps summon Life entity by saying " Let there be light " during the series. Not only at all, it directly describes Life entity as Light that embodies every existences and encompasses everything as well. + it directly described as Light that appeared on darkness.

I did read the comics and the in the newer comics none of this was ever mentioned again. What I can say is that Nekron is weaker than Pariah who only had a fraction of the power of the Darkness. I, highly doubt, the Life Entity was meant to be Source since during Blackest Nights, the Source was more than likely above the Light—yet with new information, it is the Light.

The Presence was meant to be same level with Source in Death Metal, actual story never applied Presence as Supreme being of DC + Presence is supreme arbiter of multiverse and some believed Presence is creator of multiverse because Origin of Perpetua was unknown in that time and Presence is the manifestation of Source which keep multiverse balanced, created some relams in God's sphere after Perpetua getting imprisoned.

The guidebook came out after Death Metal and has some weird information especially considering in the same guidebook they also called the Presence “Omniverse ruler.” Not to mention the same author later in another guidebook said the Presence is the fountainhead beyond the Source.

What the guidebooks say do not matter to the printed material. In the stories it never mentions “manifestation.” So, the Presence being a manifestation of the Source at best would mean they're equal but the Presence is more “direct.” It does not denote a lesser.

In conclusion, I totally disagree about Great Darkness being Self referential void due to the definition of Great Darkness or Total Darkness is an absence of light rather than Self-referential void that can only be referred itself through one another.

That's not what self-referential means. The prefix “self” is not meant to be treated as needing “self” to define self, it only means to refer to oneself. The statement that the Source is the reference point of the existence of the Darkness, or rather the absence of it is still within that definition.

 

[Xearsay]

What I agree on is that the Source is the same as The Voice/Word which is a very common emanation of God.

That’s just evidently not true.

1. The Voice is an entity within Heaven, meaning you’d be saying The Source exist within the Silver City, which is not true and would contradict the map.

2. The Voice and the Presence are literally the same entity. When God was taking the form of a dog during new 52 era, this dog form would be addressed as both the Voice and the Presence interchangeably throughout all of his appearances. We’d also see even before in Spectre vol 2(before new 52), the Spectre would describe the Voice as the one true eternal God, indicating that it’s not an aspect.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

That’s just evidently not true.

1. The Voice is an entity within Heaven, meaning you’d be saying The Source exist within the Silver City, which is not true and would contradict the map.

2. The Voice and the Presence are literally the same entity. When God was taking the form of a dog during new 52 era, this dog form would be addressed as both the Voice and the Presence interchangeably throughout all of his appearances. We’d also see even before in Spectre vol 2(before new 52), the Spectre would describe the Voice as the one true eternal God, indicating that it’s not an aspect.

Also said in the story is an aspect of God.

 

[Weaver261]

As I've said multiple times before, DC has a lot of inconsistencies. Some things can never be reached to a conclusion due to that. So, as a rule of thumb, it's better to accept the latest as the most canon and move on with the scaling. Whatever happened in the past or how it was stated, currently The source is the overvoid and the light with the presence being the one who brough the light. This thread will never reach conclusion or an agreement since one is fixated on counting on old scans and statements and while the others are only accepting the latest and using old scans that align with current meta.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

No, while I don't deny the Voice and the Presence are linked. Their relationship is summed up as manifestation(The Voice) and source of said manifestation(The Presence).

I fully disagree that the Voice is limited to the Multiverse due to the fact the scan never mentions it. It is more likely the on the level of the Cosmic Raptor whom surpasses Perpetua while argument can be made for higher.

I did read the comics and the in the newer comics none of this was ever mentioned again. What I can say is that Nekron is weaker than Pariah who only had a fraction of the power of the Darkness. I, highly doubt, the Life Entity was meant to be Source since during Blackest Nights, the Source was more than likely above the Light—yet with new information, it is the Light.

The guidebook came out after Death Metal and has some weird information especially considering in the same guidebook they also called the Presence “Omniverse ruler.” Not to mention the same author later in another guidebook said the Presence is the fountainhead beyond the Source.

What the guidebooks say do not matter to the printed material. In the stories it never mentions “manifestation.” So, the Presence being a manifestation of the Source at best would mean they're equal but the Presence is more “direct.” It does not denote a lesser.

That's not what self-referential means. The prefix “self” is not meant to be treated as needing “self” to define self, it only means to refer to oneself. The statement that the Source is the reference point of the existence of the Darkness, or rather the absence of it is still within that definition.

No, I agree voice is manifestation of Presence but, it only existed within in multiverse because, the one that's linking with voice is Presence which is supreme arbiter of multiverse but not possibly in Greater Omniverse. Which mean the voice isn't above multiverse level since the one that's linking with The Voice's just multiversal arbiter known as Presence, which isn't Source/Presence.

It directy linking with Presence, the which the description directly stated and the description of Presence, the stated as " Supreme Multiversal arbiter but not possibly in greater omniverse. " which basically mean, The Voice was directly manifested by Presence, The aka Multiversal Arbiter + voice resides in God's sphere.

The current comic era focuses on the mystery of the Source, starting from the events of Death Metal. While I won't deny that Nekron poses a lesser threat compared to Pariah and the Dark Crisis, it's important to note that all the dark armies were weakened during that time. The Life Entity was never intended to represent the Source during Blackest Night, as it was already established that the Source was the Light. This implies the Source has always been the Light of Creation since Blackest Night. My main point is that the phrase "Let there be light" has actually appeared twice (depending on the writer's interpretation).

The external guidebook shares same functionality with Comic's lore of Source's functions. The Source in the gudebook prob referring of death of the new god's Source, since lore suggests that Source ordered Perpetua to create multiverse and Presence and Source sitting at top of greater omniverse also support my argument.

Morrison applied him as " manifestation of someone " but who would that be?? Yea Presence and Source are same level because they are same entity but different name.

It didn't stated like that, later sentence applied as " Total darkness can only be defined as absense of light ". The Darkness coud refer itself as total absense of light.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

No, I agree voice is manifestation of Presence but, it only existed within in multiverse because, the one that's linking with voice is Presence which is supreme arbiter of multiverse but not possibly in Greater Omniverse. Which mean the voice isn't above multiverse level since the one that's linking with The Voice's just multiversal arbiter known as Presence, which isn't Source/Presence.

You can say the Voice is within the Multiverse, however, your claims of it “isn't Multiversal and is bounded to the Multiverse” is not supported at all by anything except headcanon particularly the former.

It directy linking with Presence, the which the description directly stated and the description of Presence, the stated as " Supreme Multiversal arbiter but not possibly in greater omniverse. " which basically mean, The Voice was directly manifested by Presence, The aka Multiversal Arbiter + voice resides in God's sphere.

Same guidebook said “Omniverse supreme ruler.” Why pick one yet ignore the other?

The current comic era focuses on the mystery of the Source, starting from the events of Death Metal. While I won't deny that Nekron poses a lesser threat compared to Pariah and the Dark Crisis, it's important to note that all the dark armies were weakened during that time. The Life Entity was never intended to represent the Source during Blackest Night, as it was already established that the Source was the Light. This implies the Source has always been the Light of Creation since Blackest Night. My main point is that the phrase "Let there be light" has actually appeared twice (depending on the writer's interpretation).

If you claim it was never intended to represent the Source, but you say the Source was always meant to be the Light of Creation then those are counterintuitive. Meaning, the Life Entity isn't the Light of Creation, or the Source was never always meant to be the Light of Creation. Given recent information, it is safe to assume the Life Entitiy isn't the “let there be light” notion of the Light of Creation because that ultimately is represented by the Source.

The external guidebook shares same functionality with Comic's lore of Source's functions. The Source in the gudebook prob referring of death of the new god's Source, since lore suggests that Source ordered Perpetua to create multiverse and Presence and Source sitting at top of greater omniverse also support my argument.

At the time of Death Metal, the Source and Presence were “supreme” with nothing outside them. However, it does not touch dual nature as what Death of the New Gods did. The Source was always “unseen” and work through agents like the Hands rather than directly getting involved.

Morrison applied him as " manifestation of someone " but who would that be?? Yea Presence and Source are same level because they are same entity but different name.

It said “self” manifest so he literally manifested himself.

It didn't stated like that, later sentence applied as " Total darkness can only be defined as absense of light ". The Darkness coud refer itself as total absense of light.

Darkness is absence of light, the Source is the light of reference for the Darkness which is where the Source came from. All these points connect that it is the self-referential Void.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

You can say the Voice is within the Multiverse, however, your claims of it “isn't Multiversal and is bounded to the Multiverse” is not supported at all by anything except headcanon particularly the former.

Same guidebook said “Omniverse supreme ruler.” Why pick one yet ignore the other?

If you claim it was never intended to represent the Source, but you say the Source was always meant to be the Light of Creation then those are counterintuitive. Meaning, the Life Entity isn't the Light of Creation, or the Source was never always meant to be the Light of Creation. Given recent information, it is safe to assume the Life Entitiy isn't the “let there be light” notion of the Light of Creation because that ultimately is represented by the Source.

At the time of Death Metal, the Source and Presence were “supreme” with nothing outside them. However, it does not touch dual nature as what Death of the New Gods did. The Source was always “unseen” and work through agents like the Hands rather than directly getting involved.

It said “self” manifest so he literally manifested himself.

Darkness is absence of light, the Source is the light of reference for the Darkness which is where the Source came from. All these points connect that it is the self-referential Void.

SO, do you really think manifestation could surpassed true form I terms of existence?

You doesn't seems to understand about it, it's talking about Source/Presence.

Life entity was still supposed to be Light of creation, You are making ur own lore again. " Let there be light " on Source could be metaphorical reference of how Source appeared on TGD. Latest canon applies that Source was generated by Self referential void upon Darkness, it prob depends on author's interpretations.

Don't you understand that, The Source from Death of the new God's just an aspect of true Source that came from higher plane? Morrison already affirmed that Source cannot be divided or split since it's an ultimate concept.

uhh where?

Yea so, isn't that simple that TGD'S just an absence of light? Total Darkness is TGD, the reference of TGD itself is total absence of light.

 

[Averroes1]

"DC is inconsistent so we ought to choose our own more inconsistent interpretations"

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

SO, do you really think manifestation could surpassed true form I terms of existence?

If you're talking about the Source, it was the entitiy itself.

You doesn't seems to understand about it, it's talking about Source/Presence.

I assume this part is responding to my part about the Presence. If that were the case it specifically only mentions the Presence in the guidebook as Omniverse supreme being.

Life entity was still supposed to be Light of creation, You are making ur own lore again. " Let there be light " on Source could be metaphorical reference of how Source appeared on TGD. Latest canon applies that Source was generated by Self referential void upon Darkness, it prob depends on author's interpretations.

You said the Source isn't the Life Entity and claimed that the Source is always meant to be the Light. Now, you're backtracking saying the Life Entity is the Light of Creation? Make up your mind, we literally agreed due to recent information that the Life Entity isn't the Source nor the Light.

Don't you understand that, The Source from Death of the new God's just an aspect of true Source that came from higher plane? Morrison already affirmed that Source cannot be divided or split since it's an ultimate concept.

It did split so there's that.

uhh where?

In the scan. Self-manifest has one meaning.

Yea so, isn't that simple that TGD'S just an absence of light? Total Darkness is TGD, the reference of TGD itself is total absence of light.

You said the same thing.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

"DC is inconsistent so we ought to choose our own more inconsistent interpretations"

Says you. I wouldn’t see you complaining if it were the Overvoid at the top again. You alongside just a few others are complaining, but for the majority I don't see any complaining.