Gigantic Animal Man Revision

[Yobo_Blue]

@Ant

The Writer drawing is actually a very, very bad example anyway, since while the feat itself happens in Final Crisis, the context that gives the Writer that tier and proves it was the Writer who did so was the WoG statement, not the comic.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

@Yobo

Did that Overman ever come back though? Or was that the final time he was seen? That's what I was trying to get at. Since he's a different one from the Post-52 version seen in Final Crisis.

I don't think literally all meta abilities should ever be disregarded, since DC is an extremely meta verse. But with Animal Man specifically, I'll defer to people that have actually read the stuff to determine if they were meant to be taken seriously or not.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Overman never returned and that was indeed his last appearance

A few people are reading the run as of now. I personally see it as being self-evident in being take in seriously (perhaps even a bit too seriously, as Grant Morrison points out)

 

[Antvasima]

I still do not approve of scaling Animal Man to such an extreme tier as 1-A by using a concept that was introduced 20 years afterwards. Western superhero comicbooks are far too inconsistent for that.

I am also far too busy and tired to argue about it, but simply dumping people in the white space between the frames should not be considered in such a massively powerful manner. We avoided it with Gwenpool, and we should do so here as well. BFR yes. An automatic 1-A scale of power, absolutely not. I agree that it is simply a metafictional plot convenience, not indicative of truly transcendent raw power. It is not going to pass, no matter for how long you bother me about it. My apologies.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I believe that he's necessarily 1-A, hax seems fine if The Writer is the one that's making him do these things or giving him his powers

 

[Yobo_Blue]

The fact of the matter is Ant, it's really not up to you. And we are not asking to make Animal Man 1-A in raw power, as we've established multiple times. I understand you are working with missing information, but that just makes it even less up to you. I hate to be blunt, but you can't just throw around agreements without understanding, and you yourself wanted this revision to move forward, which is the only reason I'm here, as you wanted me to respond as quickly as possible despite my own prior engagements. I don't want this to sound whiny or anything of the sort, but the fact still remains that there has been very little in the form of a concrete argument from you in any capacity other than fallacy after fallacy. As for your actual rebuttal, the definition itself never even changed to begin with. The only difference introduced in the last 20 years was naming the exact same force.

Again, I apologize for my bluntness, but I too am overworked with my own life issues and am tired of this roundabout discussion.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I just don't want us to set a bad precedent by allowing any character (such as She-Hulk, Gwenpool, and maybe Deadpool) that can move between the frames of a comicbook to get a 1-A scale of power because of it. We even have a regulation for that being present in a higher-dimensional or beyond-dimensional realm does not remotely automatically scale to the raw power of a character.

And yes, it actually is up to me and other staff members to evaluate and accept these types of threads, regardless whether you like it or not. However, if I have misunderstood something, due to juggling too many tasks at once, combined with this discussion taking so long that I forget the specifics, then feel free to explain.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Except that these definitions no longer apply in DC, as it's cosmology is literally built around it. It quite literally is stated to be a specific exception within our profiles. And once again Ant, we are not scaling Animal Man to the void.

Yes, it is up to the staff, but Ant, don't pretend you didn't just make it about your own opinion. You specifically stated I, not "the staff" and said it will not pass no matter how you pester me. Please stop moving the goal posts

And Ant, you quite literally said yourself you haven read little of the arguments and are going on old memories. By definition you are lacking info.

 

[Antvasima]

Please stop quoting long posts.

Anyway, if I misunderstood and misremembered, then clarify/remind us what you intend to scale him from. As POTM mentioned, we have all mostly forgotten the specifics of this discussion at this point. A restart thread with a good summary of the arguments so far might be useful to get more staff members interested.

However, as it stands, as one of the highest ranked staff members, I do technically have the authority to block some revisions, if I think that something inappropriate for the wiki may be at risk of happening there. I much prefer to let other staff members handle things though, but since I get insufficient amount of help to not usually feel like falling over from exhaustion, I recurrently have to try my best to help out largely on my own instead.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I will make a new thread, as this one is near its limit, but understand that I too have things to attend to, so it will take time.

I don't know about that, but those I have asked have stated that isn't necessarily the case, so that seems questionable. That may be a whole issue on its own tho

 

[Antvasima]

Look, I very seldom push around my position, as it would be silly, and this wiki is built on collaboration between the staff and regular users, but we still have a bit of a hierarchy here, and a consensus among the participating staff is usually required for a revision to be pulled through in the first place, so yes, as the longest serving bureaucrat I can technically block revisions if I deem it necessary, unless there are several other bureaucrats and administrators that together outvote me.

That is not exactly the case here though. I just need more staff help and better summarised information.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Either way, the fact is that there has to be a new thread regardless.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. This one almost has 500 posts and has been running for a few months.

Edit:

In response to Promestein below. In theory I agree with you, but in practice, if I am severely overworked by juggling several dozen tasks at the same time, receive no help from other staff members during a long discussion, and it just goes on and on with completely unreasonable demands in a war of attrition, I eventually may have to close it for practical reasons, as I do not have limitless time and energy available.

I also agree with Matthew further below btw.

 

[Promestein]

I strongly disagree with that assertion, Ant. Maybe you can pull rank in such a way to veto things with matters of wiki policy, but revisions should come down to debate.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's obviously not 1-A, just because the art leans on the fourth wall by having Animal Man interact with the panel limits doesn't mean it needs to be taken as a literal power and specially not act like he's literally throwing people into the Overvoid, and the lines about people moving between panels isn't Time Manipulation or Immortality, it's just a commentary on the idiosyncracies of the comicbook medium. You people need to stop looking at everything through a Versus Debating lense, it clouds your analysis of the work to the point where you start to interpret everything literally for the sake of powers.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

• This is just a commentary on how superheroes, as fictional entities, will inevitably outlive their creators and exist as long as their stories are read. An idea Morrison has stated over and over.
• Most of the stuff about how characters aren't killed even after Crises and Retcons happen are the same thing. An idea Morrison also explored through his concept of Hypertime. See here and here.
• This is just a tongue and cheek comment about comicbook as a medium, and how comicbook characters never really age even as decades pass in real life
• This isn't really existence erasure
• Also his weakness isn't really an weakness and more a commentary about how fictional characters don't really have free will because stories are predetermined by their writers.
• Also throwing someone out of the panel isn't 1-A BFR for obvious reasons lol

Copypasting cause this hasn't really been addressed.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

If this is getting nowhere, should we just close this for the time being?

 

[PsychoWarper]

A new thread is gonna be made and Yobo plans on being more clear with what he wants and will have info and such to try and support it.