Gigantic Animal Man Revision

[Sandman31]

I thought you were referring to the Red being "on top of everything else" but yeah I might mave misunderstood that

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Top of everything else is still 1-B. Thats the same as the Monitor Sphere, which is top of everything else and was also described as a platonic realm. The likely 1-A ratings of the top 3 Endless came from scaling and that Destiny and Death exist beyond the multiverse.

Okay, I see the confusion now. I'll try and clear everything up tomorrow.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I thought you were referring to the Red being "on top of everything else" but yeah I might mave misunderstood that

Yeah, I'll get back to that in a bit, but that was probably just me being unclear. Honestly, I do have a lot of IRL stuff to, so I'll have to get back to this later.

 

[Antvasima]

Sandman31 makes a good point.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

Yeah I'm a bit confused on where 1-A is coming from as well. Is it the timeless time and placeless place scan? Reading the bit about Antagon destroying all creation seemed 1-B to me but I might be missing something, having never read the full arc myself.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Sandman31 makes a good point.

There seems to have been some miscommunication, however, so this will have to be cleared up. It would be a good idea to wait from more input from other staff considering that fact.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Sandman31 and PrinceOfTheMorning are likely our most knowledgeable DC and Marvel Comics experts, or at least they are usually very good at evaluating issues concerning them.

 

[PsychoWarper]

We should probably wait until Yobo can make his counter argument before any decesions are made.

Also I think when he said "similar to what we have with the Endless" I think he simply meant the "At least 1-B, likely 1-A" part not the actual justification for it, im guessing he has his own but I could be wrong.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Don't worry. I haven't forgotten about this revision for Animal Man. I've just been very busy.

Why does a series called Animal Man need a entire issue dedicated to radical lesbian feminist counter-mafia operations tho

 

[ExodusNexus]

This is really killing me inside.

 

[Antvasima]

You should preferably ask Sandman31 and PrinceOfTheMorning to comment here again. I personally think that Sandman31 makes sense.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

A few new things, and the answers to the above

Resistance to Life Manipulation: Life Manipulation doesn't work on Red users

Resistance to Soul Manipulation and Pain Manipulation: Withstanded the Spider Queen inflicting trauma and burning his spiritual self

Portal Creation: This is a bit tldr, but Dust Mites are gatekeepers who he can use to open portals through dimensions

To answer Sandman the Red dreams are those that contain the world Tree and are explicitly within the Red

As for the 1-A question by Prince, it's a few things, not just Antagon stuff, but a lot of philosophy stuff regarding platonism, which has enough evidence for being true platonic stuff due to its inclusion of, among other things, descriptions of the implicate order and it's nature as the lynchpin of conscious thought, which is consistent with the Red reaching into the higher bounds of reality as described by the Three Secrets. There's a lot of stuff on the archetypal nature and it's unfolding nature

(The Implicate Order is a term which refers to the theory in which "in the enfolded [or implicate] order, space and time are no longer the dominant factors determining the relationships of dependence or independence of different elements. Rather, an entirely different sort of basic connection of elements is possible, from which our ordinary notions of space and time, along with those of separately existent material particles, are abstracted as forms derived from the deeper order. These ordinary notions in fact appear in what is called the "explicate" or "unfolded" order, which is a special and distinguished form contained within the general totality of all the implicate orders". There's a lot of other stuff that's a bit long winded, but that's the very minimal concept in a nutshell)

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Well done Yobo

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

Thanks for the long response.

So does this wiki basically treat 1-A as a tier for beings that are beyond the concepts of space and time altogether? And that's why the "timeless time", "placeless place", and archetypal nature of the Red are evidence for 1-A? And that's why Ultima and Promestein agreed with 1-A?

I want to be clear that I'm not contesting it, as those two know more about the tiering system than I do, I'm just trying to wrap my head around what it means to be 1-A.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Thanks for the long response.

So does this wiki basically treat 1-A as a tier for beings that are beyond the concepts of space and time altogether? And that's why the "timeless time", "placeless place", and archetypal nature of the Red are evidence for 1-A? And that's why Ultima and Promestein agreed with 1-A?

I want to be clear that I'm not contesting it, as those two know more about the tiering system than I do, I'm just trying to wrap my head around what it means to be 1-A.

More or less that. There are a few philosophical variables too, but I'm not as good with that as those two are. Additionally, there was some stuff about the Animal Masters canonically being unaffected by Morrison's retcon and some other shenanigans connecting the Red to limbo and other deeper Morrison cosmology stuff, but that's less prevalent.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

Ok cool, thanks for the clarification. Btw those abilities seem fine to me too.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Any other questions?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we should only assign 1-A to characters that qualitatively transcend all dimensions of time and space themselves, not just ones that exist outside of some degree of them, or have extra dimensions beyond a conventional universe or multiverse.

We have to be careful so we do not assign very exaggerated statistics in this regard. Perhaps we should wait a few weeks until DarkLK is able to help out with an evaluation?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

If you want.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

As I mentioned above, only Animal Man's morphogenetic powers would qualify for a 1-A rating, as Animal Man himself is explicitly 3-D, although spiritual existences in the storyline are much higher in nature.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

Everything other than the 1-A stuff can be applied though, right? It doesn't seem like anyone had a problem with the plethora of new abilities and stuff.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, the other accepted abilities can obviously be applied.

 

[Genericstickman]

Bump

 

[Yobo_Blue]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Yobo_Blue/sandbox3

Got the beginnings of a draft, but I'm a bit busy irl, so feel free to pitch in if you have time.

 

[Antvasima]

It is a bit messy and incomplete so far in terms of coherent structure for the statistics.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Yes , that is why I said it was the beginning of one.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Should I message DarkLK to see when he can look at this?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. You can ask Azathoth as well.

The accepted other abilities can probably already be applied though.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. You can ask Azathoth as well.

The accepted other abilities can probably already be applied though.

^

 

[Sandman31]

As for the 1-A question by Prince, it's a few things, not just Antagon stuff, but a lot of philosophy stuff regarding platonism, which has enough evidence for being true platonic stuff due to its inclusion of, among other things, descriptions of the implicate order and it's nature as the lynchpin of conscious thought, which is consistent with the Red reaching into the higher bounds of reality as described by the Three Secrets. There's a lot of stuff on the archetypal nature and it's unfolding nature

(The Implicate Order is a term which refers to the theory in which "in the enfolded [or implicate] order, space and time are no longer the dominant factors determining the relationships of dependence or independence of different elements. Rather, an entirely different sort of basic connection of elements is possible, from which our ordinary notions of space and time, along with those of separately existent material particles, are abstracted as forms derived from the deeper order. These ordinary notions in fact appear in what is called the "explicate" or "unfolded" order, which is a special and distinguished form contained within the general totality of all the implicate orders". There's a lot of other stuff that's a bit long winded, but that's the very minimal concept in a nutshell)

Just saying that its really hard for those stuff alone to net a character a tier 1-A rating. Example is that the New Gods are explicitly described to be Platonic Concepts, Archetypes etc and so are the Monitors. Theres also a profile for the Watchers from the Time Ship novel who were stated to be capable of manipulating Plato's Realm of Ideas which is beyond time, physics etc this verse also has infinite D

So what I'm saying is that were really strict on Platonic stuff and that the stuff mentioned in Animal Man/Shamanic World/ World Soul doesnt seem concrete enough for 1-A.

I also feel that if we accepted this for 1-A then it doesnt seem fair for other verse/characters whos upgrades to 1-A got shot down even though its more concrete than the ones in animal man.

The Implicate Order stuff doesnt really sound like 1-A

Anyway, I'm going to quote Azathoths comment on this 1-A upgrade thread for the Monad, which has similar stuff to this (and is also more clear cut) because I echo the same sentiment as him regarding this. You can invite him here but this is my personal opinion regarding this

"I personally don't think this sounds concrete enough to be 1-A.

I am getting a little confused for what often becomes the assumed standard for something being upgraded to 1-A, though. Falling back on a tried but true example of 40k's incarnation of the Chaos Gods, much of the same quotes have been repeatedly applied to them over the course of their existence (completely beyond by causality, transcendent of the concept of time and distance, existing only as abstractions and metaphor as opposed to physical things, higher level of existence/"unreality", etc.), and many, myself included, believe this alone is not sufficient proof for a 1-A ranking. Though not merely flowery language, as it does indeed have substance, said substance is not something concrete enough for what is required of 1-A.

On the other hand, there are things like the Cthulhu Mythos, where despite a massive chunk of the writing being almost nothing but purposefully dreamlike prose or guesses at the incomprehensible nature of reality, there is repeated, direct proof of Outerverse level tiers in multiple stories.

It definitely varies, but usually such a high tier is where we require things to be more clear cut. It's possible even some things actually rated 1-A have been done so too leniently when compared to others, but we generally try to keep such high, controversial levels as accurate as we possibly can, and thus often must be able to justify them beyond a shadow of a doubt. That is part of why I put together my Mythos blog, in the first"

 

[Antvasima]

Sandman31 is correct in that we should maintain strict requirements for 1-A, both in this case and others.

Sera EX appears to be back, so you should probably ask her to comment here as well.

 

[Andytrenom]

Sandman, can you write down a summation of what the 1-A requirements are in the first place? Verses can be rated correctly or incorrectly so I don't know if some verses not being 1-A despite more clear cut evidence is indicative of this case not being either.

Referring to what 1-A means on a basic level might be a more useful approach here

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

At the very worst, would a Possibly 1-A rating for the stuff be allowed?

 

[Sandman31]

Clear superiority to the concept of dimensions. Or being transcendent over infinite dimensions. These philosophical stuff can help but they're not enough especially when these philosophical stuff are vague as well. Statements about timelessness etc can be found even in tier 2s so theyre not enough as well. If no hierarchy is present then the philosophy that you use to upgrade someone to 1-A should at least be very clear.

I mentioned other verses because they're really similar to this one. What I"m only against is the upgrade to 1-A because of the philosophical mumbo jumbo, they can be used to support a 1-A rating but I dont think they can be used to upgrade to 1-A when theyre not that clear cut, well explained etc

 

[Andytrenom]

Isn't it noted somewhere that transcendence over infinite dimensions isn't proof of 1-A?

 

[Sandman31]

Yes. It could just be a higher level of High 1-B but 1-A is much easier to prove when infinite D or a hierarchy is involve

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Part of the argument was scaling, with the philosophical stuff as supporting evidence. But I will check with others.