Damn you PoC! (Devil May Cry Revisions)

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Ehm, I'm not versed on DMC, but, I want to say something about what is being proposed.

the eightfold path is a reference to buddhist theology, and i guess they're treated as the 8 Dimensions that the soul transcends so this means souls are indeed higher Dimensional,they also originate within a higher dimension, this dimension exists in the demon realm, most probably nirvana, which is the place the eightfold path leads to in buddhism, that realm also exists in Devil May Cry and its the only place the PoC scan could be referring to when saying "beyond the eight fold path" , so its probably sound to say that the higher dimension in that the Statement is speaking of is nirvana or a place beyond it that exists some where in the demon world, but wait there's more evidence to back this up :

My issue is that the Eightfold Path is actually talking about this, and in that way, they aren't really eight higher dimensions, but instead a list of doctrines that one has to follow to achieve enlightenment and by that reach Nirvana. In that sense, is logical that the soul resides in a "higher dimension", as it seems that it's what is near to achieving enlightenment, but not really transcending 8 of them.
Soo... I think that part should be detailed better, because what it's already there is not enough to solidify that the reality itself is a 1-C structure. I'm not going to totally disagree right now, and it seems from the statements that it should be at least Low 1-C. But that point... eh.

 

[NeoTengus]

Last post I'll make on the canon topic since I already said I agree with the upgrade.

Vergil also appeared in the trailer yet he isn't part of the storyline so don't get your concerns up

Vergil is mentioned in the story mode and has his own separate mode. It's very much at least 50/50 whether Mundus appears in the story mode or not,
especially because after Pluto frees that female demon with the snake head (I think her name is Medea), she seems to ask "Does Lord Mundus send you to set me free?" Although the subtitles don't match what the voice actor is saying there.

And matt is just the producer of one dmc game and doesn't know things outside of it and when he was asked if the novels are canon or not he answered that's it's canon but only because itsuno told him so meaning he he had no idea that's it's actually canon so until it get confirmed that he had some hand of the development of the game we aren't gonna take his statements even his answer is shaky proofing more that he didn't really helped in the development

Matt's title is not 'The producer of one DMC game'. His title is Producer of Capcom and Peak of Combat is a game that came out under his tenure and he confirms to have first hand knowledge of the game that he feels unsure about sharing. Regardless, Capcom's only role overall was a supervisory one, not development.

Obviously things that were before his tenure such as Pre- DMC5 games and novels he would need Itsuno's sign off to confirm canonicity so that's not an argument, that's just common sense. However, he was still able to confirm that those were canon through his access to Itsuno.

Considering Matt confirms his first hand knowledge of PoC but tip toes around the canon question, yet actually helped confirmed canonicity for releases that came before his tenure (whether by asking Itsuno or otherwise), it forms a weird situation.

I'm not saying its a smoking gun or anything, and again my position is that the game should be considered canon until confirmed otherwise. My position was just that its canon status is definitely shaky and could possibly go away in the near future.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

There was a word from Itsuno they supervised the game, reddit had a scan of that

 

[NikHelton]

It turned out very impressive and I think it makes sense. The mobile game really brought a lot of new things to the world of DMC and raised the level of forces. Well, the Chinese have always loved to make characters of cosmic proportions, and as I remember, they were the ones who made this game. I agree with the author.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Yeah. Ignore the old poor forgettable god of otherworlds cries

 

[Lormac_CC]

I am neutral on the entire 1-C stuff, but I do disagree with the idea that the Demon world holds the human world. The scan you posted said the universe was eventually split in two. then the mirror stuff doesn't really proves that either, A mirror that reflects my image doesn't hold my mass, yes it will reflect the world but that doesn't mean that the world is a subset of it. Could you add more context on Dante finding a tear window in space and time

 

[KLOL506]

I am neutral on the entire 1-C stuff, but I do disagree with the idea that the Demon world holds the human world. The scan you posted said the universe was eventually split in two, then the mirror stuff doesn't really proves that either, A mirror that reflects my image doesn't hold my mass, yes it will reflect the world but that doesn't mean that the world is a subset of it.

The Demon World does not hold the Human World, where did you hear that?

Sevil himself explicitly notes down that the Mirror World is basically a copied version of the human world, and yet its only a small fraction of the demon realm serving only as entrance to it in mallet island.

The Mirror World is a copy of the Human World while also being part of the Demon World. Not the main Human World itself (As in, the Human World is separate from the Demon World, but the Mirror World, despite being the exact same copy of the Human World, cosmology and all, is part of the Demon World and is a lower realm compared to the higher-level Demon World).

What he tried to say is that even with both the Demon World and the Human World being separate, the Human World is still several dimensions lower on the level of existence compared to the Demon World itself, as even the Mirror World having the exact same cosmology as the Human World means nothing to the Demon World's 9-dimensional existence, which would exist 5 dimensions higher than the 4-D human world, with each of those dimensions possessing a higher level of qualitative superiority than the last.

 

[Lormac_CC]

The Demon World does not hold the Human World, where did you hear that?

Maybe I misunderstood thing

 

[Dienomite22]

As I said on discord I still disagree with 1-C Demon World and agree with higher D souls but I can't find anything wrong with the evidence of 1-C so I'll reluctantly remain neutral on it for now.

 

[Theglassman12]

Alright, finally got time to make a response here. So me and several others have told Sevil to NOT post this yet as we need more scans to prove this being legit, but **** it he's made the thread already so might as well finish the discussion here.

Regarding the 9-D soul scan and the eightfold path, first off the fact you said Nirvana is where they go when souls go beyond the eightfold path shows you do not understand what the hell the eightfold path is supposed to be. The Eightfold Path for buddism specifically states it leads you to nirvana. The fact you have the scan say it goes beyond the eightfold path and assume that it goes to the place that it goes beyond in the first place makes no damn sense whatsoever, so Idk why you're making assumptions that this is where the higher dimension is when we haven't been given a clear statement on where exactly they go.

The demons being before the demon world doesn't exactly prove tier 1 stuff, this is a neutral statement to use to argue tier 1 since it just proves demons exist before the demon world was a thing.

Having a Low 2-C structure doesn't really help much for tier 1? That can boost the tier 2 realms for sure but it doesn't really add much beyond "there exists other realms in DMC".

Just saying, dimensions doesn't automatically mean higher realms of infinity, that can just mean parallel universes so unless Chen is more specific that can just mean an alternate universe.

So I do not see type 4 or 8 immortality there, it literally says even when revived from the dead it will always come after its prey. Unless dante has a scene of permanently killing the banshee and it could not come back whatsoever I'm against this scaling as it's based off too much assumptions here.

I still don't really buy the high godly stuff given it's not backed up anywhere in the games and in fact contradicts it. Nightmare in DMC 1 dies when its soul is gone, Griffon Nightmare and Phantom in 5 dies when their soul is gone. Dante in mission 12 of DMC 3 has to carry a neo generator, which is literally sucking his soul away, the mission description literally says "reclaim the bridge before the soul is lost forever". And if you don't succeed in the mission Dante dies while in Devil Trigger form, so he can die by his soul being gone. There's also the Sin Scythe demon stated to kill Dante by reaping its soul, and he has to escape from death in order to not die. So them being able to come back even when their soul is gone is BS when the series has shown the opposite.

As for the 9-D souls in general, can I ask why are we taking this one statement as legit when every time we've seen demon souls in the form of devil arms be just 3-D objects? Considering this is one of the most consistent showings we have of souls being shown and we have just this one random statement of souls being 9-D with no extra information to back it up, I do not see why this should be taken as legit for hax, let alone being AP scaling. Which is yet another reason why I wanted this to wait before we get more scans to solidify tier 1 stuff since as of now we're making massive assumptions without any legit proof to back it up.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I really didn't want to come here for this, I had plans for other series I like but well, here I am.

I don't remember how to make spoilers and all that shit so pardon my big ass post.

Lets start with the nirvana bs, first thing is the nirvana is just a name, it doesn't have any elaboration or lore in DMC3, it has nothing except some descriptions in the official guide with the most important part being "Examine a tombstone to enter a dreamlike version of the boss fights". Nothing about souls or dead demons or anything in general. The only thing that ever remotely hints at souls is the name of the area "Lost Souls Nirvana". The other areas have even less references to the irl thing.

The only reason this problem started is because the OP is using the name of a place and the random statement of the souls in PoC and, with the knowledge of the irl theology, unifying both to make it seem like it was always intended to be like that which is pretty much irl cross scaling and afaik this site doesn't use that.

My second problem is the whole scan, it seems people can't read. The scan clearly says "it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eight-fold Path." If we are cross scaling with irl theology (a very stupid thing to do) as far as I understand the Nirvana isn't exactly a higher dimension beyond the eight fold path, more so the ending of it and the liberation of one self from all the material and worldly needs and everything it conveys. There is also the issue that this whole eightfold path and nirvana thing have different interpretations based on the religion you are using.

In any case nothing of this is explained in the scans from PoC and everything using irl theology to make the Nirvana and this nine dimensional world the same thing is just dishonest.


The regeneration part: There has been a lot of arguing about this because it just changes/contradicts/retcons the known lore of the series. To put it into perspective as we currently accept it the Human world was born out of the energy of the demon world and then it got separated from the demon world or the world of darkness.

As the scan puts it there was a primordial chaos before the existence of the demon world, said chaos spawned demons and the coming demon world formed demons. Quite a change eh?

Taking this into account demons are supposed to predate the existence of the demon world, it makes no sense that the demon world they are meant to predate has any bearing on them or their souls as it came after their existence. This point is further empathized with the names. "The power of a name. From the moment of their birth, names are one of the most sacred things to demons. They represent not only power, but also the concept of their own existence, the basic principles of which predate even the creation of the demon world itself. It manifests itself as part of the soul that forms them, and their dark hearts."

Basically their concept (which later on became the soul or part of it) are the basic principles that predate even the creation of the demon world. This shows how little power the demon world has over them.

TL;DR: Souls are beyond the confines of the demon world with their whole concept predating it. Now some may say "what about the demon world soul fuckery with demons?", the answer its simple: HAX.


Now with the cosmology things:

The darkness presented in the manga is supposed to be the demon world, with the new stuff from PoC we don't know what spawned this darkness or if this darkness is the chaos or the demon world, the OP will probably say this is the chaos before existence but the PoC scan says nothing about the chaos and the darkness being the same, furthermore the darkness is always referred as the demon world (as shown with the 4 scans above). The interpretation is the most heated topic here so I'll wait for more people but the noteworthy part is the creation of the human world and how it is just a universe created by the demon world, yes the Demon world dwarfs it but unless things have changed while I was away, this shouldn't be nearly enough to justify a tier 1 rating or a full transcendence or whatever we use to determine tier 1.

The mirror dimension: The only things we know is that it reflects the evil in humanity and that it serves as the entrance to the demon world in Mallet Island. There is never anything about its nature beyond the reflection, its real size or what does it reflect besides the island. The scan the OP used to "imply" it is a space-time continuum is not only not talking about size but it literally means the Mirror in the castle is a portal, "another window in time and space", literally only serves Dante to travel another dimension that isn't the human world nor the demon world. Nothing about it being a L2C universe.

Chen: For starters, the use of "dimension" in DMC is mostly used to describe another universe, the demon world is often referred as another dimension, the mirror world is named the Mirror Dimension, the human world is called a dimension. Now let me give you context of Chen, he absorbed a Deus Ex called the Beastheads, an artifact that allows the user to watch other universes (like the alternative dimension Dante goes mid novel), he has this power with the BH. Now his main purpose in life is to know everything there is, he is greedy for knowledge and his statement might as well be talking about how he wants to know about the other universes that exist, not necessarily about higher dimensional planes. But for the sake of the argument lets say these are indeed higher dimensional planes, nothing about it indicates these are within the demon world or the human world not only that but we don't know how many these "all dimensions" are, it could very well be 4 or 5 or infinite of them. Basically using this as proof is the most vague and lame excuse to try and show how "dimensions" exist in the DMC universe.

TL;DR: Demon world farting a universe into existence means little and at best you could get Low 1-C since it dwarfs 1 space-time, mirror world is vague and generally useless for the argument, there might be higher dimensions or more universes however these have nothing to do with the demon world.

• Personally im fine with the soul hax and the soul stuff, its very clear and as stupid as PoC is with the scans we might get more in the future.
• Im neutral with the regen stuff, there are arguments for everything here.
• Hax and other stuff is good but it should scale to Dante only, he is the only one who fights these demons and at this point in time his power has surpassed that of vergil by a large margin, this gap is only covered in power thanks to Mundus making him something else. Nero is bitch tier but Sparda should scale just fine.

 

[Sevil Natas]

will comment later.

 

[Lugh_Tuathe_Dé]

Hax and other stuff is good but it should scale to Dante only, he is the only one who fights these demons and at this point in time his power has surpassed that of vergil by a large margin, this gap is only covered in power thanks to Mundus making him something else. Nero is bitch tier but Sparda should scale just fine.

So it would only scale to sparda and dante?

 

[CrystalValley]

i'm not an expert on DMC and have only played 1 2 and 3 so far, but we have no statements on how these dimensions work at all even in your own post. i am completely against the cosmology upgrade. my knowledge on the abilities and stuff isn't good though so I am neutral on that.

 

[Darksmash]

The Eightfold path stuff seems like a very minor nitpick. Nirvana can be beyond the process leading to it, considering its supposed to be a transcendent state.

That said, I am on board with there being too little scans to explain the actual properties of these dimensions or whether they are suitable for the tiering system.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I can't really say much about the dimensions part because I don't really have good knowledge in DMc, but I disagree with High-Godly due Glassman reasons

 

[Sevil Natas]

Regarding the 9-D soul scan and the eightfold path, first off the fact you said Nirvana is where they go when souls go beyond the eightfold path shows you do not understand what the hell the eightfold path is supposed to be. The Eightfold Path for buddism specifically states it leads you to nirvana. The fact you have the scan say it goes beyond the eightfold path and assume that it goes to the place that it goes beyond in the first place makes no damn sense whatsoever, so Idk why you're making assumptions that this is where the higher dimension is when we haven't been given a clear statement on where exactly they go.

being beyond the eightfold path or the place it leads is pretty damn similar not to mention. that part was there to give you an idea of what the scan is probably referring to.

The demons being before the demon world doesn't exactly prove tier 1 stuff, this is a neutral statement to use to argue tier 1 since it just proves demons exist before the demon world was a thing.

No, that statement proves where demons originated, the original chaos or darkness that became the demon world later. with demons being literally souls that's it stands to reason that the demon world. is the souls' origin, and it is the statement the PoC scan is talking about.

Having a Low 2-C structure doesn't really help much for tier 1? That can boost the tier 2 realms for sure but it doesn't really add much beyond "there exists other realms in DMC".

except, the only reason that stuff is there, is to make the demon world qualify for tier 1 standards, it's not meant for tier 1 necessarily.

So I do not see type 4 or 8 immortality there, it literally says even when revived from the dead it will always come after its prey. Unless dante has a scene of permanently killing the banshee and it could not come back whatsoever I'm against this scaling as it's based off too much assumptions here.

it connects to its prey, it could revive itself from the dead as long as its prey lives. this is textbook type 4 & 8

I still don't really buy the high godly stuff given it's not backed up anywhere in the games and in fact contradicts it. Nightmare in DMC 1 dies when its soul is gone, Griffon Nightmare and Phantom in 5 dies when their soul is gone.

this means nothing when almost everyone in DMC has shown the capability to nullify regeneration. also sid was literally killed by a gunshot wound to the head do we downgrade their regeneration to low-mid based on that when it clearly was shown to be otherwise? the statement is pretty blatant unless you wanna willingly create contradictions in the lore

Dante in mission 12 of DMC 3 has to carry a neo generator, which is literally sucking his soul away, the mission description literally says "reclaim the bridge before the soul is lost forever". And if you don't succeed in the mission Dante dies while in Devil Trigger form, so he can die by his soul being gone. There's also the Sin Scythe demon stated to kill Dante by reaping its soul, and he has to escape from death in order to not die. So them being able to come back even when their soul is gone is BS when the series has shown the opposite.

this neo generator thing sucks your soul. so it's more so sealing. it doesn't actually destroy the soul. and even if it is, it would only be gameplay mechanics. this seems exactly like the stuff where Dante can be killed by a collapsing castle & fail the mission if the time runs out this sort of thing falls under gameplay mechanics and its completely unusable for scaling. regarding sin scythe demon, give me the scan that says that. even if it isn't just gameplay mechanics that would give us Dante < some random fodder. which is obviously a huge outlier

As for the 9-D souls in general, can I ask why are we taking this one statement as legit when every time we've seen demon souls in the form of devil arms be just 3-D objects? Considering this is one of the most consistent showings we have of souls being shown and we have just this one random statement of souls being 9-D with no extra information to back it up, I do not see why this should be taken as legit for hax, let alone being AP scaling. Which is yet another reason why I wanted this to wait before we get more scans to solidify tier 1 stuff since as of now we're making massive assumptions without any legit proof to back it up.

the statement literally says souls are 9 dimensional and originate from a higher dimension, that's clearly talking about 9D here and that's the only proof we need, at the very least it would get higher D existence. also, a lot of higher-dimensional objects & entities are depicted as 3D objects in fiction. if just being visually represented as 3D was enough to debunk HDE then needless to say a lot of verses would be downgraded

 

[Lightning_XXI]

That's the very problem when a game (or one piece of the series) upgrades the verse too much like POC is doing, eventually you are bound to find contradictions

I'll stay neutral on the Tier 1/9-D debate for now as I feel more posts about it are needed, about the hax:

So I do not see type 4 or 8 immortality there, it literally says even when revived from the dead it will always come after its prey. Unless dante has a scene of permanently killing the banshee and it could not come back whatsoever I'm against this scaling as it's based off too much assumptions here.

Dante kills this demon on story and it never came back, while we don't have an exact timeframe for its resurrection, the quote doesn't imply anything that takes too long to the point of not being relevant, it should count

I still don't really buy the high godly stuff given it's not backed up anywhere in the games and in fact contradicts it. Nightmare in DMC 1 dies when its soul is gone, Griffon Nightmare and Phantom in 5 dies when their soul is gone. Dante in mission 12 of DMC 3 has to carry a neo generator, which is literally sucking his soul away, the mission description literally says "reclaim the bridge before the soul is lost forever". And if you don't succeed in the mission Dante dies while in Devil Trigger form, so he can die by his soul being gone. There's also the Sin Scythe demon stated to kill Dante by reaping its soul, and he has to escape from death in order to not die. So them being able to come back even when their soul is gone is BS when the series has shown the opposite.

Like Sevil said, DMC characters can neg Regeneration and Immortality, most notably Dante, the first examples you gave fall under that. The NeoGenerator, however, I find to be an actual anti feat. There is a difference between Dante dying from a random fodder explosion, that has no lore to back up, from dying to a specific item that is sucking his soul with the quotes to back it up, the first is the famous game mech, the other can't be considered one

Still, I'm not sure if one anti feat should nuke the whole thing

• Hax and other stuff is good but it should scale to Dante only, he is the only one who fights these demons and at this point in time his power has surpassed that of vergil by a large margin, this gap is only covered in power thanks to Mundus making him something else. Nero is bitch tier but Sparda should scale just fine.

I also agree with this, as Nelo Angelo has a different source of power at this point

 

[Saiyan40009]

neutral these 9 dimensions shows infinitely tracendent or something since the scan doesn't show that

 

[Lormac_CC]

So is there a scan showing the nature of those dimensions, like lower are embedded on Higher or R-F, if there is none, then I disagree. The highest it would give would be Unknown.

 

[Deadguy]

Just for the record the nirvana stuff and the eightfold are most likely just their interpretations of those things so they don't necessarily need to stick to what the original says because dmc is well known to take alot of inspirations from religions & myths so I just see it like this

And for chen point while I could see the demon realm dimension point which I admittedly still didn't completely get it I don't believe he actually referring it the alternate universes by that statement since he isn't even the one to send them there nor did he mentioned about where is dante and beryl have gone meaning he doesn't know where were they

 

[Saiyan40009]

these dimensions seem to be more esoteric or something that is truly tracendent aside this game is canon for official games

 

[Deadguy]

So is there a scan showing the nature of those dimensions, like lower are embedded on Higher or R-F, if there is none, then I disagree. The highest it would give would be Unknown.

I believe in dmc1 manual there is a statement about the demon realm and the human realm being referred to as lower and upper realms if that could help sevil have the scan but I will try find it myself if he doesn't have it

 

[Saiyan40009]

that is too vague by itself the wiki does not accept that unless it shows that these kingdoms are or show tracendants apart the human kingdom was not born of separation

 

[Deadguy]

that is too vague by itself the wiki does not accept that unless it shows that these kingdoms are or show tracendants apart the human kingdom was not born of separation

I can't completely understand what you're trying to say here but I know that it's somewhat vague but that's why it will only exist as supporting evidence

 

[Lormac_CC]

I believe in dmc1 manual there is a statement about the demon realm and the human realm being referred to as lower and upper realms if that could help sevil have the scan but I will try find it myself if he doesn't have it

Well, it doesn't really show the nature of those dimensions in the Demon realm

 

[Saiyan40009]

A question this is accepted as canon

 

[Deadguy]

A question this is accepted as canon

Yes it's canon

 

[Sevil Natas]

Lets start with the nirvana bs, first thing is the nirvana is just a name, it doesn't have any elaboration or lore in DMC3, it has nothing except some descriptions in the official guide with the most important part being "Examine a tombstone to enter a dreamlike version of the boss fights". Nothing about souls or dead demons or anything in general. The only thing that ever remotely hints at souls is the name of the area "Lost Souls Nirvana". The other areas have even less references to the irl thing.

The only reason this problem started is because the OP is using the name of a place and the random statement of the souls in PoC and, with the knowledge of the irl theology, unifying both to make it seem like it was always intended to be like that which is pretty much irl cross scaling and afaik this site doesn't use that.

My second problem is the whole scan, it seems people can't read. The scan clearly says "it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eight-fold Path." If we are cross scaling with irl theology (a very stupid thing to do) as far as I understand the Nirvana isn't exactly a higher dimension beyond the eight fold path, more so the ending of it and the liberation of one self from all the material and worldly needs and everything it conveys. There is also the issue that this whole eightfold path and nirvana thing have different interpretations based on the religion you are using.

In any case nothing of this is explained in the scans from PoC and everything using irl theology to make the Nirvana and this nine dimensional world the same thing is just dishonest.

and do you have any better interpretation on what the statement is trying to convey by saying "beyond the eightfold path" ppl seem to forget, nirvana is not there to solidify anything, this has to do with the other part which I'll get to now.

The regeneration part: There has been a lot of arguing about this because it just changes/contradicts/retcons the known lore of the series. To put it into perspective as we currently accept it the Human world was born out of the energy of the demon world and then it got separated from the demon world or the world of darkness.

As the scan puts it there was a primordial chaos before the existence of the demon world, said chaos spawned demons and the coming demon world formed demons. Quite a change eh?

Taking this into account demons are supposed to predate the existence of the demon world, it makes no sense that the demon world they are meant to predate has any bearing on them or their souls as it came after their existence. This point is further empathized with the names. "The power of a name. From the moment of their birth, names are one of the most sacred things to demons. They represent not only power, but also the concept of their own existence, the basic principles of which predate even the creation of the demon world itself. It manifests itself as part of the soul that forms them, and their dark hearts."

Basically their concept (which later on became the soul or part of it) are the basic principles that predate even the creation of the demon world. This shows how little power the demon world has over them.

TL;DR: Souls are beyond the confines of the demon world with their whole concept predating it. Now some may say "what about the demon world soul fuckery with demons?", the answer its simple: HAX.

this doesn't contradict anything really. the original chaos which is the initial universe spawned demons. they already existed prior to the demon world becoming a thing. i don't think you understand what the Primordial chaos even is. as the scans suggest the world was born of darkness, said world was a crucible of chaos and was stated to be a "primordial existence" clearly the regen statement is referring to that. it later on became the demon world when the human world was split off of it. so if that initial universe had a 9-dimensional space it would scale to the demon world. since in the manga itself it says "the darkness (referring to the og universe) became the realm of demons" so it would scale to the demon world as well
regarding the name stuff, even if we ignore there's some distinction between the og chaos & the demon world. i still dont buy it. souls can exist without names(human souls for example and those demons that Sparda took their names from) and vice versa just because names predate everything, it wouldn't necessarily mean the souls would also do that. also, the part everyone ignored, is the fact the demon world continues to form demons which are souls to this day. meaning it hasn't lost this "higher dimension"

The darkness presented in the manga is supposed to be the demon world, with the new stuff from PoC we don't know what spawned this darkness or if this darkness is the chaos or the demon world, the OP will probably say this is the chaos before existence but the PoC scan says nothing about the chaos and the darkness being the same, furthermore the darkness is always referred as the demon world (as shown with the 4 scans above). The interpretation is the most heated topic here so I'll wait for more people but the noteworthy part is the creation of the human world and how it is just a universe created by the demon world, yes the Demon world dwarfs it but unless things have changed while I was away, this shouldn't be nearly enough to justify a tier 1 rating or a full transcendence or whatever we use to determine tier 1.

No they have been equated, in the first scans even. "the world was born of darkness, unending darkness, a crucible of chaos, but even to that primordial existence there came in a ray of light" you could infer that if you read the damn thing in chronological order. and yes that does prove that demon world dimensions are transcendent. as stated by the tiering system FAQ right here

Tiering System

The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system which this wiki utilizes in order to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats, and the varying scopes which they can affect or create/destroy. However, it...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc."
the human word at the point of its creation was only a ray of light to the infinite darkness of the OG universe / DW
if the DW is 9D then this proves tier 1

 

[Vietthai96]

1. Well take inspiration from real life myth doesn't mean we should scale to real life myth. And PoC was developed by a Chinese devs and Buddhist is a huge myth in this country, it is normal for them to take some inspiration from the religion
2. In DMC myth Demon Realm was refered as Heaven at some point in human history according to the game backstory, but just that nothing more. Higher and Lower can be just geometrically rather than actual transcended unless proven otherwise, or we can upgrade many verse this this statement alone
3. The part: nine dimensional seem very vague because we doesn't even know the nature of these dimension. Also the part higher dimension is also really vague, geometrically higher or actual higher plane of existence

 

[Sevil Natas]

from dying to a specific item that is sucking his soul with the quotes to back it up, the first is the famous game mech, the other can't be considered one

he doenst die from it. its more so sealing than anything, it's just like the demonic book where it seals the targets soul

 

[Lormac_CC]

No they have been equated, in the first scans even. "the world was born of darkness, unending darkness, a crucible of chaos, but even to that primordial existence there came in a ray of light" and yes it does prove that demon world dimensions are transcendent

This doesn't really prove transdence, the universe was eventually separated.

 

[Sevil Natas]

3. The part: nine dimensional seem very vague because we doesn't even know the nature of these dimension. Also the part higher dimension is also really vague, geometrically higher or actual higher plane of existence

from the statement alone we could infer that these geometric dimensions meaning at best we get HDE & maybe higher hax. the transcending part is covered in second part of the blog read it

 

[Sevil Natas]

This doesn't really prove transdence, the universe was eventually separated.

No, the human world was literally in the Primordial universe, a literal ray of light to endless darkness. later they get separated into the human world & the demon world. the human world being the ray of light and the demon world being everything else. it fits the standards otherwise no staff that is knowledgeable on tier 1 stuff like ultima would've approved it.

 

[Saiyan40009]

Actually the scan you sent does not show that it is an infinitely smaller construction the fact that that ray of light divided and created the human kingdom does not speak very well that I am infinitesimally smaller apart this could simply be a poetic way of telling creation of the world human

 

[Vietthai96]

from the statement alone we could infer that these geometric dimensions meaning at best we get HDE & maybe higher hax. the transcending part is covered in second part of the blog read it

Still require actual transcence, not some vague line like nine dimension, you know that there is something called pocket dimension???

 

[Saiyan40009]

The lightning bolt was a catalyst for the separation and subsequent creation of the human world plus no world, even in the same tradition, nothing shows that the human world is infinitely smaller than the demonic world.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So I do not see type 4 or 8 immortality there, it literally says even when revived from the dead it will always come after its prey. Unless dante has a scene of permanently killing the banshee and it could not come back whatsoever I'm against this scaling as it's based off too much assumptions here.

This is a fodder grunt in the game, they are always killed off permanently during battles. That has always been the principle behind every encounter with demons sans boases and still is.

The ressurection is tied their target. As long as target exist....they will revive. Thats valid Type 4,8.

I still don't really buy the high godly stuff given it's not backed up anywhere in the games and in fact contradicts it. Nightmare in DMC 1 dies when its soul is gone, Griffon Nightmare and Phantom in 5 dies when their soul is gone.

These enemies have always been killed off with aid of regen neg. This is has been an accepted fact since long time. I don't see why anything must have changed.

Dante in mission 12 of DMC 3 has to carry a neo generator, which is literally sucking his soul away, the mission description literally says "reclaim the bridge before the soul is lost forever". And if you don't succeed in the mission Dante dies while in Devil Trigger form, so he can die by his soul being gone

I actually agree with this not being a game mechanic, especially with this cutscene outright saying it out loud that "..even the devil boy is no match for it..." as said by Jester.
There is lore and cutscene backing up the said device's power. But is it an outlier??
Well lets see....
1)Its supposed to a generator for some important Tower Mechanism.
2) Its defended by Beowulf himself, who ragdolled Dante, and Dante couldn't do shit but blind him.
3) The damn power source is outright able to SUSTAIN Dante's Devil Trigger....that requires some nasty quality and amount of energy.
4) But more importantly its able to soul hax Dante....albiet slowly.

This macguffin is NOT NORMAL....absolutely not. At this I dare say its above Dante is power and hax potency at this stage in M12. With a good lore backing up this stature.
So its not unfounded to say IT can also neg the regen Dante has while its being wielded.
We have PoC lore to back up that demon material is able to kill demons. Which is a direct reference to regeneration negation.
HayWire Neo Generator definitely qualifies as one.

So yes...it can kill Dante via soul hax and regen neg.

So its not a contradiction to High Godly.

There's also the Sin Scythe demon stated to kill Dante by reaping its soul, and he has to escape from death in order to not die. So them being able to come back even when their soul is gone is BS when the series has shown the opposite.

The Sin first needs to have speed and skill to tag Dante. Which it doesn't possess. It also needs soul hax potency and regeneration negation to be greater than Dante's resistance at this point in story......something which only Mundus can bypass. So unless we wanna give some random fodder same speed and hax as God Tiers....I don't need to tell you how wrong it is lore wise.

So that begs the question on why such a warning is given by game?? Well there is some concept in gaming that I would call "Communication with player"... i.e...the game officially gives out warning or help about some obstacles encountered by player in an effort to hype said obstacles and provide hints...EVEN if said threats be complete fodder to the Characters lore strength. This can be seen in another example in DMC4 where Dante has to escape a collapsing tower in 10 minutes or he is killed. How seriously should such a warning be taken lore wise when Dante has speed that the collapse can never match, doesn't have AP that can scratch Dante, and doesn't have any hax that can permanently kill him.
Yet Dante dies in gameplay.....which is just that gameplay....a challenge for player...not for Dante.

As for the 9-D souls in general, can I ask why are we taking this one statement as legit when every time we've seen demon souls in the form of devil arms be just 3-D objects? Considering this is one of the most consistent showings we have of souls being shown and we have just this one random statement of souls being 9-D with no extra information to back it up, I do not see why this should be taken as legit for hax, let alone being AP scaling. Which is yet another reason why I wanted this to wait before we get more scans to solidify tier 1 stuff since as of now we're making massive assumptions without any legit proof to back it up.

Tier 1 shenanigans aside...on which I am neutral.

HDE is nothing to doubt for...especially when you realise....no fiction can and has never portrayed HDE as HDE....because we humans lack that ability. All depictions in fiction are 3D visually, any extra Dimensions are always textually stated. So this is an unfair demand to make of PoC.

Absolutely disagree with this arguement.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Still require actual transcence, not some vague line like nine dimension, you know that there is something called pocket dimension???

A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path.

this is clearly referring to higher dimensions not pocket dimensions

 

[Saiyan40009]

Ultimima is human so she can be equated