- 1,003
- 635
- Thread starter
- #41
What do the Ultra Wormholes have to with the OP at all
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
2-A Pokémon: It Is Time
- Status
- 12,430
- 4,543
I just wanted to make sure that it says countless, but again, give to me the Japanese version, because a statement coming from a thing that's not stated in game nor comes from a Japanese source isn't a proof.
- 8,887
- 7,400
- 3,528
- 2,542
I'll agree for now. All we need is jap scans. If they corroborate then it seems pretty blatant.
Though I guess I'll be neutral until we get those scans
Though I guess I'll be neutral until we get those scans
- 14,845
- 12,289
I'm not ultra familiar with pokemon, but how the **** did so many people accept this? This is laughably flimsy.
The magnagates statement seems like it obviously shouldn't be taken literally. ******* advertising material describing the amount of stuff you can do in the game as "infinite" sounds like just an overexaggerated description of its procedural nature. It's supporting evidence at best.
I do not understand how the Reflection Cave stuff is evidence for 2-A.
The magnagates statement seems like it obviously shouldn't be taken literally. ******* advertising material describing the amount of stuff you can do in the game as "infinite" sounds like just an overexaggerated description of its procedural nature. It's supporting evidence at best.
I do not understand how the Reflection Cave stuff is evidence for 2-A.
- 16,927
- 4,844
The latter has never been a thing here and is very different from stuff being said in-game. These statements are coming directly from Nintendo themselves officially, and is repeatedly done by them, so I fail to see how that is in any way the same as something in-game being mistranslated.
- 16,927
- 4,844
Its not overexaggerated whatsoever and I fail to see how you can even consider it that. It is a direct statement of there being infinite possibilities at hand. Are infinite possibility statements now an exaggeration?
- 47
- 3
How is it not meant to be taken literal and is an exaggeration? It's literally how it works in game.
- 14,845
- 12,289
When they come from advertising material for a procedurally generated video game, yes.
In other situations and contexts (i.e. canonical statements), no.
@Purmeenant It's not how it works in game, there's only a finite number of permutations of each dungeon, despite being procedurally generated. I think it's on the order of millions or billions, but it's not infinite.
- 12,430
- 4,543
Except that we always checked the Japanese version to make ourselves sure of that translation is reliable. Pokémon isn't an exception and you know this.
- 3,457
- 1,705
Based
- 16,927
- 4,844
We check Japanese versions of stuff said in-game. Not officially made promotional information. This isnt about Pokemon being "an exception", its about promotion details and in-game statements not being remotely in the same boat in this particular case.
- 12,430
- 4,543
It being a non-jap promo makes the situation even worse you know?
- 16,927
- 4,844
No, its the creators and people involved in making the game themselves giving that info, which is much more blatant and explicit.
In-universe statements are not better, nor the only way to go about giving information.
- 1,003
- 635
- Thread starter
- #56
Okay, why should it not be taken literally? You can't just say "we can't take it literally" and expect that to be it; there needs to be a reason. Also, in regards to advertising, this is something on an official Nintendo website that is describing a feature of the game. It's not some random commercial stating it. The only thing that would be questionable via this logic would be the trailer statement, but Pokemon's trailer statements are very much consistent with what's intended in the actual game. Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon are specified as alternate universes in the Nintendo Direct they star in and it's consistent within said game too.
It's 2-A via infinite recursion if the chain is constantly expanding.
- 16,927
- 4,844
From the company who literally promotes the game in the first place? Not at all.
- 14,845
- 12,289
Infinite possibilities in this context more likely means "there's a lot" rather than a literal infinity. If you're not aware of that, look up that term and how it's used in discussion about video games.
But if you still disagree, then I won't be able to change your mind. I'm not sure how else to put it other than, if you're taking it literally in this context, you don't have a good grasp on language.
It's 2-A via infinite recursion if the chain is constantly expanding.
There is nothing textual indicating that the chain is expanding, so we can't use that. Just a baseless assumption that there's too many alternate worlds for the cave, and what feels like a baseless assumption that the alternate worlds in that cave have to lead to every other copy of X/Y and nowhere else. Why couldn't there be 10,000 alternate worlds leading off of each copy into a random world? I don't understand why they have to link to the other copies of the games specifically.
But if you still disagree, then I won't be able to change your mind. I'm not sure how else to put it other than, if you're taking it literally in this context, you don't have a good grasp on language.
It's 2-A via infinite recursion if the chain is constantly expanding.
There is nothing textual indicating that the chain is expanding, so we can't use that. Just a baseless assumption that there's too many alternate worlds for the cave, and what feels like a baseless assumption that the alternate worlds in that cave have to lead to every other copy of X/Y and nowhere else. Why couldn't there be 10,000 alternate worlds leading off of each copy into a random world? I don't understand why they have to link to the other copies of the games specifically.
- 16,927
- 4,844
Theres no reason to be limiting it to just "a lot", there's no basis for that. Its a direct statement of infinite possibilities that you'd find anywhere else that uses it.
The texual indication is that the chain is expanding because the point of Reflection Cave is that it leads to different universes with their own reflection caves, who have mirrors that lead to other universes with their own reflection caves, and so on and so forth. And the anime has shown very clear that universes connected through the mirrors are only connected by their one specific mirror portal.
When Ash went to another mirror universe that did things the opposite of his own world, he had to go back through the exact same mirror he entered in the first place. If any other mirror could lead back to his world, he wouldnt have needed to do that.
- 12,430
- 4,543
And? They can add random stuff that isn't stated in the game.
- 1,003
- 635
- Thread starter
- #61
That literally has no justification for why it would apply like that in this context. You would need to prove in this context that such an idea is the case.
Why did you reply then if you think you can't do that? The second part of your statement is pretty much just a bad insult that establishes nothing for your argument. Not sure why you'd even bring that up.
I already explained how the chain realistically has to have a sort of expansion to it. All of the universes being connected to one cave is something that blatantly doesn't work. If it works in a way where some universes aren't automatically connected, we have precedent to assume it can expand like that. There's more evidence for it being an open chain rather than a closed system. The only reason we went with a closed system because it's a conservative lowball.
- 16,927
- 4,844
The very fact that each dungeon is contextually supposed to appear only once is enough to cement what the promotion says. The only way you can dispute that is by using literal game mechanics.
- 12,430
- 4,543
Because with MWI you can't get similar stuff...
- 16,927
- 4,844
You can of course, but MWI also leaves infinite possibilties on the table. And again, the only way to dispute the statement at that point is to use the literal game mechanics (which is insanely silly or else every single game verse here thats 2-A gets downgraded for infinite universes not being literally programmed into the game) or its being lowballed to be conservative again.
- 1,003
- 635
- Thread starter
- #65
You can get infinite universes out of MWI.
- 14,845
- 12,289
Theres no reason to be limiting it to just "a lot", there's no basis for that. Its a direct statement of infinite possibilities that you'd find anywhere else that uses it.
The basis is the context of how words are used.
The difference between other statements of "infinite possibilities" in series which use it to describe their cosmology is the context. An advertisement about how the dungeons are randomized vs a character describing how the cosmology operates are two extremely different things.
The texual indication is that the chain is expanding because the point of Reflection Cave is that it leads to different universes with their own reflection caves, who have mirrors that lead to other universes with their own reflection caves, and so on and so forth. And the anime has shown very clear that universes connected through the mirrors are only connected by their one specific mirror portal.
When Ash went to another mirror universe that did things the opposite of his own world, he had to go back through the exact same mirror he entered in the first place. If any other mirror could lead back to his world, he wouldnt have needed to do that.
So why can't the caves for each of the 18 million copies of X/Y just lead to their own series of, say, 100,000 caves? Leaving us with 1.8e12 realms? Far lower than infinite, and still fitting with the evidence.
I already explained how the chain realistically has to have a sort of expansion to it. All of the universes being connected to one cave is something that blatantly doesn't work. If it works in a way where some universes aren't automatically connected, we have precedent to assume it can expand like that. There's more evidence for it being an open chain rather than a closed system. The only reason we went with a closed system because it's a conservative lowball.
It doesn't need to continually expand. Even on top of the example that I just provided, some caves may just be 3 or 4 steps apart. There's no need for it to loop back, it could tie up to there only being one path between each of them.
There is literally zero evidence for it being an open chain. You're baselessly assuming the cave doesn't have enough mirrors to connect it to the other universes, and baselessly assuming that if one cave can't connect to all of them, that it has to go on forever.
The basis is the context of how words are used.
- "Even with infinite possibilities, games will often feel the same" - Article about how even though games can do a lot of things, they can feel similar.
- "Halo Infinite's Infinite Possibilities" - An article about how Halo's story could go in many directions from this point.
- "Video Game Player with Infinite Possibilities Creates Character That Looks Like Self" - Joke article about how even though a player has many choices, they'll often create characters that look like themselves.
- "Infinite Possibilities: A Game of Artifact Associations" - Article about a board game that's pretty open-ended.
- "This AI text adventure game has pretty much infinite possibilities" - Article about how a text adventure game is pretty open-ended.
- "The infinite possibilities of chess" - Article about how chess is a deep and complex game.
The difference between other statements of "infinite possibilities" in series which use it to describe their cosmology is the context. An advertisement about how the dungeons are randomized vs a character describing how the cosmology operates are two extremely different things.
The texual indication is that the chain is expanding because the point of Reflection Cave is that it leads to different universes with their own reflection caves, who have mirrors that lead to other universes with their own reflection caves, and so on and so forth. And the anime has shown very clear that universes connected through the mirrors are only connected by their one specific mirror portal.
When Ash went to another mirror universe that did things the opposite of his own world, he had to go back through the exact same mirror he entered in the first place. If any other mirror could lead back to his world, he wouldnt have needed to do that.
So why can't the caves for each of the 18 million copies of X/Y just lead to their own series of, say, 100,000 caves? Leaving us with 1.8e12 realms? Far lower than infinite, and still fitting with the evidence.
I already explained how the chain realistically has to have a sort of expansion to it. All of the universes being connected to one cave is something that blatantly doesn't work. If it works in a way where some universes aren't automatically connected, we have precedent to assume it can expand like that. There's more evidence for it being an open chain rather than a closed system. The only reason we went with a closed system because it's a conservative lowball.
It doesn't need to continually expand. Even on top of the example that I just provided, some caves may just be 3 or 4 steps apart. There's no need for it to loop back, it could tie up to there only being one path between each of them.
There is literally zero evidence for it being an open chain. You're baselessly assuming the cave doesn't have enough mirrors to connect it to the other universes, and baselessly assuming that if one cave can't connect to all of them, that it has to go on forever.
Last edited:
- 12,794
- 3,888
Just my two cents, but why take the literal interpretation of there being infinite worlds from that statement? The statement comes from an ad, clearly meant to advertise the randomly generated mechanic. We already don't accept feats from trailers, so i fail to see why this is any different.
No opinion on the reflection cave, but i'm curious as to the other evidence Kukui had.
No opinion on the reflection cave, but i'm curious as to the other evidence Kukui had.
- 4,942
- 1,316
Yeah, big neutral on this.
- 12,430
- 4,543
But you can still get the "only once you can get in the dungeon" due to how massive MWI is
- 16,927
- 4,844
- First point is a false comparison to this, where in this case, mystery dungeons are explicitly supposed to be different from each other all the time
- Second point is pretty clearly just talking about how anything can happen in a story, which again, isnt comparable to this specific notion for the mystery dungeons
- Third point is 100% relying on game mechanics that isnt contextually treated as anything more than game mechanics. Heck, Pokemon does a better job with this than that considering the literal game worlds from each copy is contextually proven to be an alternate universe, so infinite forms of the player character in each universe has better chances of being legit. But we dont use this to argue 2-A.
- Fourth point is, once again, talking about anything can happen strategy wise and isnt contextually treated as anything like the Mystery Dungeons are
- Fifth point, same thing. And even worse here, "pretty much" leaves in room for doubt. Which isnt the case here.
See above. Our case is going off of how mystery dungeons are contextually treated in Gates of Infinity. This isnt just a case of how "anything can happen so theres infinite possibilites" .
Because the caves they would be leading to would all be leading onto different universes with their own caves that do the same thing and so on and so forth.
Not to mention that this relies on a specific bit of assumption that creates a burden of proof, while the chain being infinite is already a safe assumption to have due to the worlds leading to other worlds in general. The chain being closed off doesnt exist in the first place if you throw off being conservative.
- 1,003
- 635
- Thread starter
- #71
Your articles aren't really comparable to the situation.
- The context of what the first article is talking about is gameplay infinity. It's not talking about lore, just the gameplay. In which you cannot have literal infinity in a game (it would something) so it's illegitimate because of that secluded context.
- Halo's example has literally nothing to do with what Pokemon is trying to convey in this context.
- This is the same case as the first example. That's literally just a statement about the gameplay and that's it, nothing else.
- Yet again, board game is probably the most explicit example about only referring to gameplay.
- Notice how it literally says "pretty much" right before infinite possibilities? That's acting as a modifier to show that's not the case. This ironically hurts your argument because they go out of their way to try to make it not infinite possibilities. Poor example.
You would still need a big ass cave for what you're trying to say. Agnaa, you already gave a reason for why it could function as an expansive chain above. It's not baseless at all; it's a logical ******* assumption. You're trying to say the mirrors, some of which were bigger than Ash, have 17 million other versions of them in the cave. I'd really love to see how a calculation of the size would turn out because you're making it seem like having such a number is nothing. I'm using Occam's Razor to take a logical assumption. If it's expanding to other universes and they're not all connected at once, it would be ridiculous to say the idea of it being a closed chain is supported at that point.
- 1,003
- 635
- Thread starter
- #72
Btw, I have no qualms with trying to find a Japanese source that says the same thing. However, I do not speak or understand fluent Japanese. I do not know what I'd be exactly looking for word-wise if I try to find it. It's not like some game material where you can just type the Japanese game name in on YouTube and find an LP. You would have to roam sites full of Japanese (some of which can't be translated by even Google Translate because it's part of the literal image). I just want to reiterate though that this is from Nintendo of Europe. NoE has been better known for being very accurate with their translations most of the time unlike NoA. It should be fine to use for now since it's pretty credible @StrymULTRA.
- 15,918
- 2,680
Oh yeah, completely agreed with Agnaa, the evidence on this is so either a) not 2-A (Reflection Cave) or 2) donwright stuff that shouldn't be used (are we seriously using a statement from a foreign ad as evidence? Let alone something that's very clearly hyperbole).
- 16,927
- 4,844
Its not hyperbole whatsoever and we've explained several times over on why it isnt. You can't just keep pulling the hyperbole card when we have a basis for why its literal.
- 15,918
- 2,680
Except it isn't. The context makes is abundatly clear that it is hyperbole, and even if it wasn't, it still wouldn't be valid to use.
- 2,204
- 211
A few big issues here.
- The Link Cable in Mystery Dungeon doesn't have the ability to move things between worlds like the ORAS Link Cable does. Not to mention, "devices" could mean anything, especially with Nintendo game systems being canon to Pokémon ever since the Game Boy Color this doesn't mean it connects to Pokemon's cosmology or whatever.
- "Infinite possibilities" is highly questionable at best, because Mystery Dungeons cannot be infinitely big, therefore there CAN'T be truly infinite possibilities, just more than you could count on a few quintillion hands. Also, this only applies to Mystery Dungeons. Anywhere else in all of Ultra Space isn't affected by this "infinite possibilities" statement even if it WERE truly infinite.
- None of that proves there are timelines for every possibility. You haven't given proof that the Ultimate Weapon firing or not has caused 2 different timelines, the fact that timelines exist where different things happened is not proof every possibility is a timeline, and none of the Dia statements are working but if they're the conversation I'm thinking of, he doesn't even mention possibilities.
- The statement is that "there are as many alternate universes as there are mirrors". It is a MAJOR headcanon to assume the other Mirror Caves create some sort of ad infinitum chain, and Occam's Razor says they'd likely all connect to each other since the same scan basically confirms they're not infinite. There's also no proof that the mirrors send you to other copies of X and Y, in fact the whole thing about it being portals to other worlds is an anime-only thing.
- 1,003
- 635
- Thread starter
- #77
Okay, real talk, you guys keep just making these blank ass statements that mean nothing without reasoning. You can't just walk up to a thread and say some shit like "That's vague," That's figurative," "That's flowery," etc. and not be able to explain how that is the case.
- 15,918
- 2,680
The fact you say that when Agnaa literally explained it already says a lot: https://vsbattles.com/threads/2-a-pokemon-it-is-time.111125/post-3509408
- 16,927
- 4,844
Except it is, again, for the reasons given.
Downgrade every 2-A based game verse then, because this argument relies 100% on game mechanics. Ofc there cant literally be infinite numbers of mystery dungeons inside the game as programming infinite ones in is literally impossible. The argument is that mystery dungeons, contextuallly, are infinite.
Also, where did you get "infinitely big" from? You made that up out of nowhere.
Reverse burden of proof. Evidence using ORAS, The Ultimate weapon, Rainbow Rocket, and whatnot are proof that different possibilities are timelines in Pokemon.
No, its the exact opposite. Its headcanon to think there's a closed chain when absolutely nothing suggests this is the case and narratively it treats it as a continous chain.
Anime exists in the games, so irrelevant. And doesnt change anything about the point of the argument.
- 16,927
- 4,844
And we debunked that. Its irrelevant.
- Status
Similar threads
