2-A Pokémon: It Is Time

[PlozAlcachaz]

• The Link Cable in Mystery Dungeon doesn't have the ability to move things between worlds like the ORAS Link Cable does. Not to mention, "devices" could mean anything, especially with Nintendo game systems being canon to Pokémon ever since the Game Boy Color this doesn't mean it connects to Pokemon's cosmology or whatever.

The Link Cable directly has the ability to let you interact with other player pokemon and connect games. There's a literal manual scan that goes over its uses. Sean, it's a statement talking about the Link Cables. You even acknowledge it would connect them through the system. I'm not sure what the problem is here.

• "Infinite possibilities" is highly questionable at best, because Mystery Dungeons cannot be infinitely big, therefore there CAN'T be truly infinite possibilities, just more than you could count on a few quintillion hands. Also, this only applies to Mystery Dungeons. Anywhere else in all of Ultra Space isn't affected by this "infinite possibilities" statement even if it WERE truly infinite.

We don't base the possibilities based on gameplay limitations. If that was truly how we addressed things. Minecraft wouldn't have an accepted infinite overworld on the site. Only applying to Mystery Dungeons doesn't debunk anything.

• None of that proves there are timelines for every possibility. You haven't given proof that the Ultimate Weapon firing or not has caused 2 different timelines, the fact that timelines exist where different things happened is not proof every possibility is a timeline, and none of the Dia statements are working but if they're the conversation I'm thinking of, he doesn't even mention possibilities.

The Ultimate Weapon is literally about one timeline where it fired and another where it didn't. That is as blatant as you can get for diverging timelines via possibilities. You do realize that what Dia is explaining is Many Worlds Interpretation, right? The entire idea of MWI is based on possibilities for timelines. What you're saying is objectively wrong and shows lack of understanding in the topic.

• The statement is that "there are as many alternate universes as there are mirrors". It is a MAJOR headcanon to assume the other Mirror Caves create some sort of ad infinitum chain, and Occam's Razor says they'd likely all connect to each other since the same scan basically confirms they're not infinite. There's also no proof that the mirrors send you to other copies of X and Y, in fact the whole thing about it being portals to other worlds is an anime-only thing.

How is that a headcanon? That's literally how it's shown in the anime. Why would Occam's Razor suggest that at all? Saying it's an expansive chain but then trying to say it's limited afterward requires more postulates than just it simply going on. They don't send you to those other universes because it's an extreme timing thing. They don't always take you the alt universes; that was specifically noted in the episode.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

The fact you say that when Agnaa literally explained it already says a lot: https://vsbattles.com/threads/2-a-pokemon-it-is-time.111125/post-3509408

The post you linked was literally after Agnaa had been prompted to elaborate because his original post did just that. Thank you for literally proving my point.

 

[Ionliosite]

And we debunked that. Its irrelevant.

You haven't debunked how using a foreign ad giving an statement based around the game mechanics behind the game is invalid. It's like I said, assuming the statement isn't hyperbole doesn't make it usable either.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You haven't debunked how using a foreign ad

A foreign add from the very company that promotes the game in the first place? And repeatedly does so with the same line?

giving an statement based around the game mechanics behind the game

Its not based on game mechanics, the mystery dungeons are contextually treated as being different and never the same as one another

 

[Ionliosite]

A foreign add from the very company that promotes the game in the first place? And repeatedly does so with the same line?

Pokémon Masters 2-A statement says hi. Rejected despite the very reasoning you're using. The statement doesn't even exist in Japanese =/= not usable. Let alone the fact it comes from an ad.

Its not based on game mechanics, the mystery dungeons are contextually treated as being different and never the same as one another

It's obviously not game mechanics, the statement would need to exists in the actual game in the first place to be that. I said the mechanics behind the game exactly to avoid confusion with our definition of game mechanics.

 

[Thelastmlg]

I agree with the promo but i disagree with the reflection cave being 2-A, it expanding forever and not looping back can be done with countless timelines.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Pokémon Masters 2-A statement says hi. Rejected despite the very reasoning you're using. The statement doesn't even exist in Japanese =/= not usable. Let alone the fact it comes from an ad.

In game statements =/= promotional ads say hi. False equivalence.

Promotiomal ads are a completely different case from ingame statements. Im also going to remind you that other verses here use evidence from ads to maintain their tiers, so rejecting Pokemon from doing the same thing is a double standard.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Pokémon Masters 2-A statement says hi. Rejected despite the very reasoning you're using. The statement doesn't even exist in Japanese =/= not usable. Let alone the fact it comes from an ad.

You do realize that comes from Nintendo of America, right? NoA is infamous for poor translations across numerous communities. This is a statement from Nintendo of Europe who have been praised for how accurate their translations are. All you've shown here is that you're either generalizing or don't know the basic context of the translation subsidiaries you're talking about. There is literally nothing for it not being Japanese. We've not found a scan for it because a.) Surfing Japanese Nintendo sites without knowing proper Japanese to find a Japanese scan isn't exactly easy (unless you want to surf every Nintendo site then by all means go ahead here) b.) This wasn't something we had thought about being relevant because Nintendo of Europe's translations are generally accepted on this site. So yes, pardon us for not expecting your double standards to come into play. It's on a summary from the people who made it to explain a mechanic of the game. You're purposefully twisting info to make things sound much worse than they are.

It's obviously not game mechanics, the statement would need to exists in the actual game in the first place to be that. I said the mechanics behind the game exactly to avoid confusion with our definition of game mechanics.

I've never heard of this standard before where we deny authoritative websites without a second thought. Literally, the idea of where we get the Zelda timeline is based on things that aren't even directly stated in the games. Are you going to now say we can't use the timeline too because it's not directly clarified in the game? We can take statements if they don't contradict the game, that's the entire point of allowing statements like Word of God. Your standards aren't the site's practices, sorry.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I agree with the promo but i disagree with the reflection cave being 2-A, it expanding forever and not looping back can be done with countless timelines.

It cant be expanding in the sense of countless, because the universes would have to all be existing at once.

 

[Thelastmlg]

And why wouldn't they be existing all at once if they were 2-A?

 

[Ionliosite]

In game statements =/= promotional ads say hi. False equivalence. Promotiomal ads are a completely different case from ingame statements.

True, completely. So more reason to not use it.

Im also going to remind you that other verses here use evidence from ads to maintain their tiers, so rejecting Pokemon from doing the same thing is a double standard.

Examples? Because that's completely ridiculous and it's been rejected in every verse I've seen that being brought up (like Dragon Ball and Naruto).

 

[FanSyst]

I think that Agnaa refers to the fact that the use of "infinite possibilities" when advertising a videogame is usually hyperbole, the case of Pokémon is perfectly related to the use of advertising material.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I think that Agnaa refers to the fact that the use of "infinite possibilities" when advertising a videogame is usually hyperbole, the case of Pokémon is perfectly related to the use of advertising material.

The problem is that all of his examples are literally just referring to gameplay contextually and that's it. The Magnagate statement is one that correlates with gameplay and lore. Context matters because his examples are limited to something that's not fully the same as Pokemon. To just put it simply what I'm saying, you wouldn't apply a stereotype from vanilla to chocolate just because they're ice cream.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I agree with this

 

[FanSyst]

The problem is that all of his examples are literally just referring to gameplay contextually and that's it. The Magnagate statement is one that correlates with gameplay and lore. Context matters because his examples are limited to something that's not fully the same as Pokemon.

The topics one ad article touches may differ from another, but the intent is the same.

Dungeons are part of the game, describing that they are all different and open a whole world of possibilities is not much different from announcing the customization or the map of a video game with striking words. That the dungeons are part of the history and the gameplay of the video game does not have much value if you do not provide evidence from the video game itself.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

True, completely. So more reason to not use it.

More like there is absolutely 0 reason to get a japanese version of promo ads like in-game statements since ads would need to be accepted before they can be used, or else its blatant false advertising.

Especially for one thats consistently repeating.

Examples? Because that's completely ridiculous and it's been rejected in every verse I've seen that being brought up (like Dragon Ball and Naruto).

Dragon Ball actually does use it. We use promotions to help Cell stay 4-B and promotions to help keep Jiren above Zamasu because of an ad saying Jiren is the strongest opponent in DB history in the ToP

Also, im just going to drop this here too. Infinite possibilities are also stated on the back of the freaking box of the game too. This isn't an ad, its directly talking about the game contextually and makes the statement more consistent.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The topics one ad article touches may differ from another, but the intent is the same.

Dungeons are part of the game, describing that they are all different and open a whole world of possibilities is not much different from announcing the customization or the map of a video game with striking words. That the dungeons are part of the history and the gameplay of the video game does not have much value if you do not provide evidence from the video game itself.

Magngates prove this as they are tied into the mystery dungeons and are portals to other worlds as Ploz already mentioned in the beginning.

 

[Hasty12345]

since the statement is also on the box, I'm more inclined to believe it's a 2-A statement.

 

[Ionliosite]

More like there is absolutely 0 reason to get a japanese version of promo ads like in-game statements since ads would need to be accepted before they can be used, or else its blatant false advertising.

... By your logic, the game translation doesn't NEED to be accepted before being used? Are you seriously implying that the translations of the game didn't need to get passed by a measurement before being used? This logic is completely distorted and doesn't understand the least of what quality control is.

Dragon Ball actually does use it. We use promotions to help Cell stay 4-B and promotions to help keep Jiren above Zamasu because of an ad saying Jiren is the strongest opponent in DB history in the ToP

We don't use promotions for Cell, he has that statement in the manga, but since it was originally rejected for it being only stated once as a boast, we made a blog containing every other mention of the statement regardless of its canonicity to prove his statement wasn't a one-time boast but something brought up multiple times with him - if you read the blog, you'll notice it directly says some sources used on it aren't canon, such as games. Jiren being his strongest enemy is literally said by Goku in the anime itself, what are you going about?

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

The topics one ad article touches may differ from another, but the intent is the same.

I've already been over how they're demonstrably not the same. The intent in one is completely in the sense of just gameplay; the Magnagate statements pertains to lore points that are important to the game. The two aren't remotely one and the same.

Dungeons are part of the game, describing that they are all different and open a whole world of possibilities is not much different from announcing the customization or the map of a video game with striking words. That the dungeons are part of the history and the gameplay of the video game does not have much value if you do not provide evidence from the video game itself.

The difference in the examples you gave is that they are completely just gameplay-related with absolutely no lore relevance. Specifically for your first example, customization is an aspect that's purely aesthetic and has no bearing over any lore. Magnagates having infinite possibilities is significant to the lore because the actual Magnagates themselves are lore-significant. Umbreon directly goes out of its way to state the exact portal to the dungeon they visit has probably never been used before at all. Literally what's in the promotional material is entirely relevant and consistent to how the game treats them. The only thing that's being clarified here is the extent of those possibilities because everything else is implied narratively. Your entire refute to this point revolves looking at the statement in isolation rather than in context.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I will be explaining this in depth to get the point across. There should be no reason that the promotional material is dismissed and all arguments that are doing so are based off of baselessness. Lets go more in depth with that claim.

By basic premise alone, a promotional ad should be accepted on the notion that official creatures have to oversee these translations and approve this for their works. This isn't some in-game statement or anything, these are things present on material meant to promote the game, as in, they'd need to have translations as good as possible, as they are a huge company and it being a mistranslation would harm their credibility.

I'm bringing this up because the fact creators approve of these are indicative of their applicability to the series itself. It doesn't matter how you look at it or whether it was from a foreign source, the creators still have a hand in these translations and need them to be as good as possible, thus making them canonical. The only argument you can legit give against this, is that it's hype and so far, nothing even proves this in the series. I should clarify that inherently, nothing is wrong with promotional stuff, so long it isn't contradictory to the work itself, which in Pokemon's case, it's supported heavily.

You arguing hyperbole has to be one of the most absurd things you can do to these statements. Here's a question, what would be exaggerated in these statements and for what purpose would they at that. You have to provide evidence and at the very least a motive/reasoning for it, otherwise it's like dismissing dialogue from a VN as flowery without further elaboration.

The bottom line and underlying point here is, creator involvement is still a necessity and thus, it shouldn't be dismissed, as it's basically as good as WoG if we are being honest. Unless you can provide contradictory evidence or anything that detaches this point, hyperbole and more importantly, mistranslations are futile and lacks substance.

 

[FanSyst]

I don't speak Japanese, with the help of DeepL got the following.

入るたびに地形が変化するダンジョン!

A dungeon where the terrain changes each time you enter!

There are no references to an infinite number of dungeons.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

I think I agree with 2-A Pokemon

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I don't speak Japanese, with the help of DeepL got the following.

There are no references to an infinite number of dungeons.

Strym got a translation of the scan that mentioned infinity in the server. I'll ask him to send that.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Wait, why are you using mystery dungeon for feats? Isn't it non canon or something.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Wait, why are you using mystery dungeon for feats? Isn't it non canon or something.

The thread literally goes over why it's canon. We're discussing the impact of the feats because of it.

 

[Darksmash]

I don't exactly understand what the argument for the reflection cave is,because what the OP says literally seems to oppose the idea of infinite alternate universes

 

[Bobsican]

After reading around, I agree with 2-A.
Guys, an "infinity" statement over something like this isn't just hyperbole without stuff backing that up that aren't just semantics, otherwise nearly, if not all 2-A verses would be downgraded as well as the same can be said for those cases.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don't exactly understand what the argument for the reflection cave is,because what the OP says literally seems to oppose the idea of infinite alternate universes

We've explained this over and over again in this thread.

Reflection Cave would be supporting evidence of 2-A because of the fact that it would be continually going into different universes that are all connected with mirrors in their own reflection caves. An infinite chain.

 

[Darksmash]

We've explained this over and over again in this thread.

Reflection Cave would be supporting evidence of 2-A because of the fact that it would be continually going into different universes that are all connected with mirrors in their own reflection caves. An infinite chain.

Why would the chain be neverending? The universes could just start looping back at some point?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

To be quite honest, while I do agree on 2-A, the Reflection Cave seems... iffy to me. The whole aspect of an “infinite chain” to me feels like it will be climbing endlessly towards infinity, but hasn’t definitively reached it. Imo, it would be better if it was outright said there are infinite mirrors, or infinite worlds (both would give the same thing), but the prospect of a chain sorta feels off to me, because it feels like they haven’t reached infinity.

The chain, as this video would explain at 3:20, could similarly be argued that it is infinite, but it would take a finite amount of time to count how many worlds with mirrors ad-infinity, even if that finite time is longer than this entire wiki, and every person, will live.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I don't exactly understand what the argument for the reflection cave is,because what the OP says literally seems to oppose the idea of infinite alternate universes

The idea in the OP was to explain that there is likely an expansive chain present for the verse. If the universes can connect to ones that aren't connected to others, it could go on to reach 2-A at the absolute max via the fact that already existing universes are added to the equation but weren't part of the connection beforehand. It's essentially turtles all the way down if that makes any sense. The Magnagate argument is the one I prefer here imo.

 

[FanSyst]

Strym got a translation of the scan that mentioned infinity in the server. I'll ask him to send that.

Ok, I can wait.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Why would the chain be neverending? The universes could just start looping back at some point?

The issue is that not only is that assuming a low end for the sake of being conservative, but it doesnt line up with the statement narratively. The anime made it clear that a mirror that connects one universe's reflection cave to another universes reflection cave can only be connected by that specific mirror.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Oooooh, this is interesting. Following, to see where it all goes.

 

[Darksmash]

The issue is that not only is that assuming a low end for the sake of being conservative, but it doesnt line up with the statement narratively. The anime made it clear that a mirror that connects one universe's reflection cave to another universes reflection cave can only be connected by that specific mirror.

Did the anime even go beyond a single set of caves?
Assuming that the number of possibilities are literally infinite is much worse than assuming they loop back at some point.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

The Link Cable directly has the ability to let you interact with other player pokemon and connect games. There's a literal manual scan that goes over its uses. Sean, it's a statement talking about the Link Cables. You even acknowledge it would connect them through the system. I'm not sure what the problem is here.

We don't base the possibilities based on gameplay limitations. If that was truly how we addressed things. Minecraft wouldn't have an accepted infinite overworld on the site. Only applying to Mystery Dungeons doesn't debunk anything.

The Ultimate Weapon is literally about one timeline where it fired and another where it didn't. That is as blatant as you can get for diverging timelines via possibilities. You do realize that what Dia is explaining is Many Worlds Interpretation, right? The entire idea of MWI is based on possibilities for timelines. What you're saying is objectively wrong and shows lack of understanding in the topic.

How is that a headcanon? That's literally how it's shown in the anime. Why would Occam's Razor suggest that at all? Saying it's an expansive chain but then trying to say it's limited afterward requires more postulates than just it simply going on. They don't send you to those other universes because it's an extreme timing thing. They don't always take you the alt universes; that was specifically noted in the episode.

There are non-Dimensional Travel Link Cables (such as what the fat guy talks about in every game) and Dimensional Travel Link Cables like what they developed in ORAS (and what the insufferable c*nt Zinnia smashed because of a theory). What we have here is the former.

It's a rash assumption that any limitation is gameplay-related. Maybe if the Mystery Dungeons had infinite floors or did what Minecraft did to have a map of infinite size, we'd be inclined to believe you.

No, the Ultimate Weapon is about genocide. Where are you getting this notion that it firing or not created different timelines? Dia just said timelines split, not how or why. You're also insulting my knowledge on something you're only just now explaining is even happening in the same comment.

How it's shown is that there's a universe for every mirror. That alone is overwhelming evidence that all the universes' mirrors should link to each other.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Did the anime even go beyond a single set of caves?

Nah, but again, they went with my latter explanation.

Ash traveled from one mirror in his universe's reflection cave to another universe through a mirror in their reflection cave. To get back to his universe, Ash had to specifically go back through that specific mirror he went through in the first place. If other mirror's were able to link back to Ash's universe, that would not be required.

Assuming that the number of possibilities are literally infinite is much worse than assuming they loop back at some point.

But its also very bad to make an assumption of a limitation like that when it is not implied narratively or from what the anime shown. That the mirrors link to universes different from each other, which should suggest they don't link back.

Being conservative is one thing, but assuming a limitation or weakness to something out of nowhere without evidence for it is unfounded.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm neutral on this, but I will say that "Infinite possibilities" can mean 2-A if used in a combination of someone saying "There are as many worlds as there are possibilities". But such claims also require evidence.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I'm neutral on this, but I will say that "Infinite possibilities" can mean 2-A if used in a combination of someone saying "There are as many worlds as there are possibilities". But such claims also require evidence.

If we accept the infinite possibilities as a thing, they would be their own worlds because possibilities in Pokémon are their own timelines via Dia's statements.