Pokemon Tier 1 Upgrade? (Distortion World range and Arceus)

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

We do know at least a single instance of the Creation Trio have an influence over a multiverse of infinite/infinitely expanding size, of which Giratina was able to manipulate in Legends Arceus. So at the very least "Space" and the Distortion World are infinite/infinitely expanding multiverse in size.



This is without bringing up the anime episodes which plot was Palkia and Dialga was causing multiple universes to de-age and Ash and the gang from two parallel universe had to work together to stop them.

I don't doubt Palkia having access to multiple universes. But that doesn't change the presence of multiple Creation Trio members in the multiverse, likely one in each timeline. Which makes the idea of there being only one big 6-D Distortion World dubious.

For the OP's proposal to make sense, you have to assume:

-That there is only one Distortion World for every single timeline, even though we know the Distortion World gets heavily affected by small space-time anomalies in the normal world and that have entire timelines constantly pop out would cause a lot more issues than we see happening. Plus the contradictions I already mentioned before.

-That this Distortion World is superior in size to the infinite timelines of the normal world. Remember that "Hypertimelines" and the likes are only considered higher tier if they're quite literally bigger than the timelines they contain. Even if you want to assume that the Distortion World opposes the normal world, saying that it is 'big' enough to be superior to all those timelines is unsupported. It is in fact contradicted by the fact that the Distortion World being the mirror and opposite of the normal world is the primary narrative told by primary sources. It'd be weird if the mirror image of the normal world (the Distortion World) was massively bigger than it.

 

[Everything12]

I don't doubt Palkia having access to multiple universes. But that doesn't change the presence of multiple Creation Trio members in the multiverse, likely one in each timeline. Which makes the idea of there being only one big 6-D Distortion World dubious.

For the OP's proposal to make sense, you have to assume:

-That there is only one Distortion World for every single timeline, even though we know the Distortion World gets heavily affected by small space-time anomalies in the normal world and that have entire timelines constantly pop out would cause a lot more issues than we see happening. Plus the contradictions I already mentioned before.

-That this Distortion World is superior in size to the infinite timelines of the normal world. Remember that "Hypertimelines" and the likes are only considered higher tier if they're quite literally bigger than the timelines they contain. Even if you want to assume that the Distortion World opposes the normal world, saying that it is 'big' enough to be superior to all those timelines is unsupported. It is in fact contradicted by the fact that the Distortion World being the mirror and opposite of the normal world is the primary narrative told by primary sources. It'd be weird if the mirror image of the normal world (the Distortion World) was massively bigger than it.

Also the Distortion World is equal to multiple four dimensional constructs spread across what is a fifth axis separated from the multiverse by a sixth axis. It's not 6D itself.

I never argued either of those two things. The structure of the Distortion World is a mystery beyond the fact that it is equal and opposite to Palkia's space and Dialga's time, and Palkia's space is composed of multiple universes and even Giratina itself is able to manipulate those multiple universes.

I am neither proposing the Distortion World is 6D or 5D, it is not a hyper timeline. It just exists on an axis that is parallel to the multiverses own, with Giratina being able to traverse the axis that separates the two.

 

[Georredannea15]

I'm going to be honest, I've been cooked for several hours now talking slight nonsense and am at the point where I can't even bring myself to read all that and am just stalling something I shouldn't at this point.

@Ultima_Reality @Agnaa
You two like Tier 1 right? Can you have a look at this?

You were not on the wiki for a long time and I said new things.

 

[Everything12]

I'm going to be honest really struggling to gather the attention to read at this point, but basically cosmological function requires significant size and this proves equivalent to uncountable infinity through association (or whatever the wording of this I'm thinking of it).

So while I would like to debate further we are kinda at a stand still here until further opinions are weighed, but I think Acreus is Low 1-C because Ultima agreed to a similar line of thought before, or I'm wrong. Can't remember the exact details from months ago.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This looks good

 

[Imaginym]

I wish you all the best on your recovery.

 

[Everything12]

Basically what I've been trying to say is that two equal truly parallel axis require an extra larger perpendicular axis running through them, and that them being a perpendicular axis in which is embed multiple significantly sized dimensions would require it to be significantly sized as well.

 

[Georredannea15]

Basically what I've been trying to say is that two equal truly parallel axis require an extra larger perpendicular axis running through them, and that them being a perpendicular axis in which is embed multiple significantly sized dimensions would require it to be significantly sized as well.

This is... not true, because the axis with the significantly sized is just the 4th dimensional axis, not the 5th axis.

The fact that the 4th dimensional axes has significant size does not mean that the 5th dimensional axis has significant size because infinite 4th dimensional axes will still have 0 volume on an insignificant 5th dimensional axis and this 5th dimensional axis can still hold them. So still without contexts or expressions, this axis will be assumed to be of insignificant size.

Well, I explained why this actually happened and even quoted from the previous standart revisions

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

So I had cancer, that was fun and kept me busy.

Wait, what?! Holy crap, are you doing ok? Has it gone into remission?

I hope you recover well.

 

[Everything12]

@Qawsedf234
Your knowledgeable on Tier 1. Can you weigh in here?

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Qawsedf234
Your knowledgeable on Tier 1. Can you weigh in here?

It'll be a couple hours but sure

 

[Qawsedf234]

For four dimensional constructs, especially an infinite/infinitely expanding number of them, to be parallel like this would generally require an additional fifth dimensional axis of significant size, not something to out their to proposes nor would it mean much as theirs no evidence that Palkia or Dialga's control extends beyond the numerous four dimensional objects across the fifth dimensional axis (well beyond connecting Palkia's direction and parallel universe properties together).

This is a common misconception, but actually they wouldn't. A dimension in this context would just be how many vertexs it takes to plot them on some super grid. A planet or human only needs three (X, Y, Z). The universe for that space can have infinite figures of those categories (∞, ∞, ∞) but that's only three axis. Two infinite universes can be separated in a 4th dimensional plane by just having a different fourth number: For example (∞,∞, ∞, 1) would never in any circumstances cross (∞, ∞, ∞, 2). By the same notion you can have an infinite number of 4th dimensional spaces that can separated by just irrational numbers (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.01) vs (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.02) and on. Its why a 4th to 5th dimensional difference is an uncountable one, because it requires a Aleph-1 number of 4th dimensional spaces to force that 5th vertex to also be infinite to contain them all.

Where the upgrade comes in is with the Distortion World. The Distortion World it not just outside space and the multiverse, it is parallel it the back to it's front; like an reflection. Equal and opposite to the regular multiverse, it can be described as cosmological object equal in size to the multiverse while existing on an axis outside that of the multiverse. Basically a four dimensional construct on a parallel fifth dimensional axis, which would require a sixth dimensional axis. Now Giratina's power, physical and metaphysical (hax) would not scale to this, it has no evidence of influencing anything beyond the four dimensional multiverse or it's own realm of equal size, but Giratina does have the ability to travel between the two realms at will, even able to influence the multiverse while remaining in the Distortion World. So this would just upgrade Giratina's range to being able to extend across (something akin to) a sixth dimensional axis.

I don't see this indicating a sixth dimensional axis. At most you might be able to get an uncountable infinite number if you have a recursive amount of infinite universes due to the parallel nature of the two spaces (along with the larger connecting backdrop I guess). But to me that would only be 5th Dimensional rather than 6th Dimensional.

Also Giratina should probably get Beyond-Dimensional Existence Type 1 for being the Distortion World, which lacks the concepts of time and direction.

I vaguely get this but isn't this contradicted by Giratina just existing in normal space and getting captured?

Giratina gets 6D Range

Hoopa gets 6D Range for it's summoning

At most I see 5D range for either one, but not 6D.

• Arceus' avatar key gains an additional At least 2-B, 2-A in addition to it's Low 1-C Tier (Should this also be a varies Tier as well?). It also gets it's stuff upgraded from 5D to 6D? 7D? (Arceus' true form should also be upgraded but it's in limbo because of the new tier system)

I think the current 5D -> 6D ratings would still be the most accurate version.

 

[Everything12]

When I came up with this idea I also came to the conclusion that you could have greater infinities to have an infinite number of four dimensional constructs without needing a fifth axis, but I thought of that as the less accurate thought process because it didn't seem a truly parallel relationship to me.

But when you brought up the real numbers to display the coordinates it clicked, actually this would be a form of parallel relationship. It wouldn't truly be parallel but it would be close enough for how little clarification their is for the parallel relationship of the universes.

I don't see this indicating a sixth dimensional axis. At most you might be able to get an uncountable infinite number if you have a recursive amount of infinite universes due to the parallel nature of the two spaces (along with the larger connecting backdrop I guess). But to me that would only be 5th Dimensional rather than 6th Dimensional.

Can you explain this part in more detail?

I vaguely get this but isn't this contradicted by Giratina just existing in normal space and getting captured?

That would be it's avatar which wouldn't get it. I'm speaking of the true form which is the Distortion World itself.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Can you explain this part in more detail?

I guess before I do, we have to look at sets. To use the simple way lets look at the number 3

• 3 contains the following: 0, 1, 2
• So you can put 3 in the following sets:
  • {0}
  • {1}
  • {2}
  • {0, 1}
  • {0, 2}
  • {1, 2}
  • {0, 1, 2}

You can make a set of infinite numbers (Aleph-0) like in the one staff thread:

• the set of natural numbers, irrespective of including or excluding zero,
• the set of all integers,
• any infinite subset of the integers, such as the set of all square numbers or the set of all prime numbers,
• the set of all rational numbers,
• the set of all constructible numbers (in the geometric sense),
• the set of all algebraic numbers,
• the set of all computable numbers,
• the set of all computable functions,
• the set of all binary strings of finite length, and
• the set of all finite subsets of any given countably infinite set.

So Aleph-1 would be like the set of 3, but with all the above infinities replacing the numbers in the brackets.

So going to the recursive infinity thing you get something like a fractal structure where every portion of the object will expand by an infinite amount, including the parts that have previous expanded. So if you have two parallel 2-A spaces that both expanded forever in amount, mirror each other and form successive different multiverses you'd likely get an uncountable infinite number since you'll have a recursive infinite set of universe variations. Like timeline #1 requires the Distortion World and normal world to be in condition 1-1, but timeline #2 requires them to be in condition 1-2. If they both go up by an infinite amount then you'd likely fill all possible combinations of universal sets.

That would be it's avatar which wouldn't get it. I'm speaking of the true form which is the Distortion World itself.

I can see that I guess.

 

[Everything12]

See that technically might be a thing. In Pokemon the interactions between different players is canonical, the different save files and their events actually exist, with each save file having an entirely different multiverse and their own Distortion World which will have different events effect them both.

Problem is that though this is canonically they also like to keep it sectioned off from the single player content so they never explain how it relates to the greater cosmological structure, in particularity Arceus. So we just simplify it down to every save file is just another universe in the multiverse that just makes the number of universes in it bigger, and don't think too hard on what it means when things from Ultra Space or the Distortion World that are outside any singular universe happens in every save file beyond just going that multiverse is the size of multiple multiverses with how many universes it has. Plus though their is a lot of copies of Pokemon sold which each allow for multiple saves it isn't just naturally infinitely expanding based on every possible outcome.

Still I do think that for the Distortion World to be mirror-like reflection in how it's opposite and parallel the multiverse it requires an additional axis. Even using negative numbers for it's coordinates just doesn't seems to an accurate way to portray such a relationship. Though that could be because I'm imagining in the form of a number line instead of a fourth dimensional axis, problems with working with more then three dimensions.

Edit: Now that I'm visualising it in the form of a three dimensional graph it seems to fit.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Pokemon sold which each allow for multiple saves it isn't just naturally infinitely expanding based on every possible outcome.

The recursive stuff only really works was two already infinite spaces. Being two 2-B things that's either just higher into 2-B or 2-A.

 

[Everything12]

It seems that like most of the Wiki I was blinded by uncountable infinity and so missed the real numbers that make it up, thus leading me to ignore a possible interpretation and propose another to be the most likely. Now that I look at the Distortion World as utilising negative four dimensional coordinates as a possible method of explain it's position the fifth/sixth dimensional axis theory is no longer as solid.

Probably going to close the thread then, as the other minor changes being proposed can just be added to another CRT I have planned for the future.