2-A Pokémon: It Is Time

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In that case, I think 2-A is fine.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

There are non-Dimensional Travel Link Cables (such as what the fat guy talks about in every game) and Dimensional Travel Link Cables like what they developed in ORAS (and what the insufferable c*nt Zinnia smashed because of a theory). What we have here is the former.

The Link Cables in Mystery Dungeon literally allow them to connect to other Mystery Dungeon games in a similar fashion. They can allow you to do friend rescues with them, sending Wonder Mail, etc. So yes, it works in a similar way of connecting the two games for communication.

It's a rash assumption that any limitation is gameplay-related. Maybe if the Mystery Dungeons had infinite floors or did what Minecraft did to have a map of infinite size, we'd be inclined to believe you.

It's not a rash assumption at all. You do realize if they we're aiming for infinite universes like you're demanding here, it would literally be impossible. They'd only he able to reach infinity via an infinite amount of variable or a variable range that is infinite. The former is impossible because that would require you to have infinite data/storage which is impossible for literally any device. The latter would cause an infinite recursion loop that eventually crashes the system. You would never be able to truly replicate an infinite amount in your game, so you shouldn't use hardware limitations as your reason for why it's illegitimate. Minecraft has a similar thing where they have a canonically infinite-sized world, but the hardware limitations make the world only go up to a certain extent. That's one of the poorest routes you can go.

No, the Ultimate Weapon is about genocide. Where are you getting this notion that it firing or not created different timelines? Dia just said timelines split, not how or why. You're also insulting my knowledge on something you're only just now explaining is even happening in the same comment.

Okay, what of the genocide factor? That doesn't debunk the literal scan where Zinnia said a world took a different path where Mega Evolution is unknown because the Ultimate Weapon didn't fire. Dia's explanation is literally the same as MWI. It talks about how Dia's world can exist separately from Ash's and he refers to certain events that made that happen (which are different in Ash's timeline). I'm not insulting your knowledge; I'm just saying your explanation is objectively incorrect because you're saying what's literally being explained as MWI isn't MWI.

How it's shown is that there's a universe for every mirror. That alone is overwhelming evidence that all the universes' mirrors should link to each other.

They literally treat it like that in the episode. No one said the mirrors don't link to other universes. The main thing is that not all of the universes are immediately connected at once if not all minimum 17 million mirrors are present.

 

[Agnaa]

All of these examples are false equivalancies to this. Nintendo's promotion using infinite possibilties is directly going off of how Mystery Dungeons are contextually treated. That no Mystery Dungeon will be the same as another, hence infinite.

The problem with literally all of your examples is that they aren't the same context. The statements are pertaining to a lore-based aspect from the games. Your examples are purely about gameplay. Context matters in examples. This would be much more akin to Minecraft's situation, which is something we actually accept as infinitely-sized on the site.

Those weren't examples of comparison in mechanics. Those were demonstrations that "infinite possibilities" is often used to mean "tons of stuff is possible". And given the context the statement was made in, we should take it to be the latter.

Also, it is practically impossible for none of the mystery dungeons to be the same, as they're all finite in size with finite ways they can be arranged with a finite amount of objects. For no two to ever be the same, there would either have to be infinite variations on scenery, or infinite different types of times, or infinite different species of pokemon.

Because the caves they would be leading to would all be leading onto different universes with their own caves that do the same thing and so on and so forth.

Not necessarily.

Not to mention that this relies on a specific bit of assumption that creates a burden of proof, while the chain being infinite is already a safe assumption to have due to the worlds leading to other worlds in general. The chain being closed off doesnt exist in the first place if you throw off being conservative.

If it's expanding to other universes and they're not all connected at once, it would be ridiculous to say the idea of it being a closed chain is supported at that point.

That is not a safe assumption. We do not assume that worlds leading to other worlds result in an infinite chain. That is never our default assumption without more context. We always go to 2-B in those cases.

Okay, real talk, you guys keep just making these blank ass statements that mean nothing without reasoning. You can't just walk up to a thread and say some shit like "That's vague," That's figurative," "That's flowery," etc. and not be able to explain how that is the case.

Oh **** off, I repeatedly explained it. I explained the idiom and how it would apply to this case. You ignored it until I presented some offhand examples of it being used in the same way, and then nitpicked those to death, despite the only reason for me presenting them to show that SOMETIMES SOME PEOPLE use it in that way.

Downgrade every 2-A based game verse then, because this argument relies 100% on game mechanics. Ofc there cant literally be infinite numbers of mystery dungeons inside the game as programming infinite ones in is literally impossible. The argument is that mystery dungeons, contextuallly, are infinite.

Tell me a 2-A game-based verse and why it would be removed from that logic. Having infinitely many other timelines that we just don't end up accessing is worlds different from describing something that should clearly be finite, per how it functions, as infinite.

Reverse burden of proof. Evidence using ORAS, The Ultimate weapon, Rainbow Rocket, and whatnot are proof that different possibilities are timelines in Pokemon.

I'm not familiar with every mystery dungeon game, only the first two sets, but considering that we can access many different versions of a mystery dungeon within the same save file, and that pokemon that you rescue from those dungeons all come from the same timeline, it is seems like each "possible dungeon" isn't another timeline.

No, its the exact opposite. Its headcanon to think there's a closed chain when absolutely nothing suggests this is the case and narratively it treats it as a continous chain.

It is never narratively treated as a continuous chain. Nothing is said either way, making an infinitely higher result a stretch.

Promotiomal ads are a completely different case from ingame statements. Im also going to remind you that other verses here use evidence from ads to maintain their tiers, so rejecting Pokemon from doing the same thing is a double standard.

To maintain their tiers? I'm not familiar with these examples, but if they're being used as supporting evidence that sounds perfectly fine, as I said above. But we should probably have some in-game indication rather than basing a tier on just promo material.

There is literally nothing for it not being Japanese.

That is not how burden of proof works. We don't accept dubious foreign statements because no-one has disproven it by showing the original yet, YOU need to dig up the original statement.

I've never heard of this standard before where we deny authoritative websites without a second thought. Literally, the idea of where we get the Zelda timeline is based on things that aren't even directly stated in the games. Are you going to now say we can't use the timeline too because it's not directly clarified in the game? We can take statements if they don't contradict the game, that's the entire point of allowing statements like Word of God. Your standards aren't the site's practices, sorry.

Lore books are miles apart from ******* advertisements.

The problem is that all of his examples are literally just referring to gameplay contextually and that's it. The Magnagate statement is one that correlates with gameplay and lore. Context matters because his examples are limited to something that's not fully the same as Pokemon. To just put it simply what I'm saying, you wouldn't apply a stereotype from vanilla to chocolate just because they're ice cream.

"Idioms don't exist unless you find a series that is exactly the same as my one."

I've already been over how they're demonstrably not the same. The intent in one is completely in the sense of just gameplay; the Magnagate statements pertains to lore points that are important to the game. The two aren't remotely one and the same.

That magnagate statement is obviously about gameplay.

You arguing hyperbole has to be one of the most absurd things you can do to these statements. Here's a question, what would be exaggerated in these statements and for what purpose would they at that. You have to provide evidence and at the very least a motive/reasoning for it, otherwise it's like dismissing dialogue from a VN as flowery without further elaboration.

What would be exaggerated would be the number of possibilities. They are hyping up the variety within the dungeons. The motive is that "infinite possibilities!" is a recognized idiom that sounds far better than "2,147,483,647 possibilities!"

I do not understand what you're missing from all the times I've already explained this. I've even shown other examples of people using that same idiom in that same way.

Guys, an "infinity" statement over something like this isn't just hyperbole without stuff backing that up that aren't just semantics, otherwise nearly, if not all 2-A verses would be downgraded as well as the same can be said for those cases.

Like I said before, there's a mountain of difference between a series' own statement of its cosmology when describing it, and promotional material for a procedurally-generated game about how many different ways you can play through it.

But its also very bad to make an assumption of a limitation like that when it is not implied narratively or from what the anime shown. That the mirrors link to universes different from each other, which should suggest they don't link back. Being conservative is one thing, but assuming a limitation or weakness to something out of nowhere without evidence for it is unfounded.

"We should just assume that things have no limits because assuming limits is unfounded."

Lovely debating we've got going on today.

If we accept the infinite possibilities as a thing, they would be their own worlds because possibilities in Pokémon are their own timelines via Dia's statements.

As far as I can tell, a "possibility" is not a recognized cosmological element in Pokemon with a consistent definition. The examples the OP has are:

1. There are two timelines, something happened in one that didn't in another (no mention of possibilities as a cosmological element, like other verses have).
2. There are other timelines where different things happened (still no mention of possibilities).
3. Dia saying that there are parallel timelines that split (again, no explicit mention of possibilities as a cosmological element).

@DDM For the love of god don't accept this off of that reasoning...

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

All of these examples are false equivalancies to this. Nintendo's promotion using infinite possibilties is directly going off of how Mystery Dungeons are contextually treated. That no Mystery Dungeon will be the same as another, hence infinite.

The problem with literally all of your examples is that they aren't the same context. The statements are pertaining to a lore-based aspect from the games. Your examples are purely about gameplay. Context matters in examples. This would be much more akin to Minecraft's situation, which is something we actually accept as infinitely-sized on the site.

Those weren't examples of comparison in mechanics. Those were demonstrations that "infinite possibilities" is often used to mean "tons of stuff is possible". And given the context the statement was made in, we should take it to be the latter.

The context that this was made in is pertaining to lore, meaning no, the comparisons do not hold and the infinite possibilites comment is definitely viable.

Also, "is often used to mean "tons of stuff is possible"" is just blatantly being conservative for no reason than to dismiss the statement. Unless we're ready to downgrade any 2-A verse with an infinite possibilities comment in general. Keep the same energy or we're opening up a door to double standards.

Also, it is practically impossible for none of the mystery dungeons to be the same, as they're all finite in size with finite ways they can be arranged with a finite amount of objects. For no two to ever be the same, there would either have to be infinite variations on scenery, or infinite different types of times, or infinite different species of pokemon.

This very same logic can be applied to universes, which are also finite structures with finite amounts of objects, people, events and whatnot. The size of the structure, whether a universe or dungeon, is irrelevant.

Not to mention this argument still uses game mechanics as you are still hinging on what the given programmed mystery dungeons in-game are made available gameplay wise.

Because the caves they would be leading to would all be leading onto different universes with their own caves that do the same thing and so on and so forth.

Not necessarily.

Yes, neccessarily. This is stated in the anime and shown by the fact that Ash goes to a universe through Reflection Cave, and that universe has its own reflection cave.

Not to mention that this relies on a specific bit of assumption that creates a burden of proof, while the chain being infinite is already a safe assumption to have due to the worlds leading to other worlds in general. The chain being closed off doesnt exist in the first place if you throw off being conservative.

If it's expanding to other universes and they're not all connected at once, it would be ridiculous to say the idea of it being a closed chain is supported at that point.

That is not a safe assumption. We do not assume that worlds leading to other worlds result in an infinite chain. That is never our default assumption without more context. We always go to 2-B in those cases.

And again, that is wrong. You have absolutely no reason not to go with it being an infinite chain without being overly conservative, as thats the only way thsi low end exists. Its baseless.

Okay, real talk, you guys keep just making these blank ass statements that mean nothing without reasoning. You can't just walk up to a thread and say some shit like "That's vague," That's figurative," "That's flowery," etc. and not be able to explain how that is the case.

Oh **** off, I repeatedly explained it. I explained the idiom and how it would apply to this case. You ignored it until I presented some offhand examples of it being used in the same way, and then nitpicked those to death, despite the only reason for me presenting them to show that SOMETIMES SOME PEOPLE use it in that way.

And we explained how that's wrong, so we are back to square one again.

Downgrade every 2-A based game verse then, because this argument relies 100% on game mechanics. Ofc there cant literally be infinite numbers of mystery dungeons inside the game as programming infinite ones in is literally impossible. The argument is that mystery dungeons, contextuallly, are infinite.

Tell me a 2-A game-based verse and why it would be removed from that logic. Having infinitely many other timelines that we just don't end up accessing is worlds different from describing something that should clearly be finite, per how it functions, as infinite.

This wasnt in response to you, it was to Super. But i'll answer anyway.

Xenoblade and Dragon Ball Hereos from the very top of my head. They'd be remvoed because if your going to go by the logic of there not being infinite possible worlds accessible in game in MD, which is incredibly silly to argue as its completely impossible for that to happen mechanics wise, then the former 2 and every other 2-A verse gets the boot as well for it being the exact same thing.

Reverse burden of proof. Evidence using ORAS, The Ultimate weapon, Rainbow Rocket, and whatnot are proof that different possibilities are timelines in Pokemon.

I'm not familiar with every mystery dungeon game, only the first two sets, but considering that we can access many different versions of a mystery dungeon within the same save file, and that pokemon that you rescue from those dungeons all come from the same timeline, it is seems like each "possible dungeon" isn't another timeline.

This isn't an argument. You can access Ultra Space from the same save file in Ultra Sun and Moon, despite the fact that the worlds in Ultra Space are blatantly different universes.

Mystery Dungeon is no different because of the Magnagates used to access the dungeons.

No, its the exact opposite. Its headcanon to think there's a closed chain when absolutely nothing suggests this is the case and narratively it treats it as a continous chain.

It is never narratively treated as a continuous chain. Nothing is said either way, making an infinitely higher result a stretch.

The mirrors are all supposed to be leading to different universes from a reflection cave, and only specific mirrors can be used to connect to each universe a mirror leads to. That by itself suggests they are all supposed to be leading to different worlds in general.

At the absolute most, your point here would only make it no lower than Possibly 2-A.

Promotiomal ads are a completely different case from ingame statements. Im also going to remind you that other verses here use evidence from ads to maintain their tiers, so rejecting Pokemon from doing the same thing is a double standard.

To maintain their tiers? I'm not familiar with these examples, but if they're being used as supporting evidence that sounds perfectly fine, as I said above. But we should probably have some in-game indication rather than basing a tier on just promo material.

We do have in-game indication though. The magnagates, as Ploz explained in the very beginning of the thread. Combine that with the ad's statements and thats very explicit evidence of infinitely different worlds.

Not to mention the infinite possibilities statement is repeated on the very back cover of the game box that I posted earlier, which isnt an ad and speaks details about the game's mystery dungeons.

I've never heard of this standard before where we deny authoritative websites without a second thought. Literally, the idea of where we get the Zelda timeline is based on things that aren't even directly stated in the games. Are you going to now say we can't use the timeline too because it's not directly clarified in the game? We can take statements if they don't contradict the game, that's the entire point of allowing statements like Word of God. Your standards aren't the site's practices, sorry.

Lore books are miles apart from ******* advertisements.

Based on? Advertisements are something that are directly overseen and managed by the very company and creators as a whole, I made a long in-depth comment about this earlier.

Advertisements are the closest out-of-universe statements to Word of God, and are consistent.

I've already been over how they're demonstrably not the same. The intent in one is completely in the sense of just gameplay; the Magnagate statements pertains to lore points that are important to the game. The two aren't remotely one and the same.

That magnagate statement is obviously about gameplay.

Uh, what? The maganate is a blatant in-universe concept in Mystery Dungeon, it is part of their lore. Its not gameplay whatsoever.

You arguing hyperbole has to be one of the most absurd things you can do to these statements. Here's a question, what would be exaggerated in these statements and for what purpose would they at that. You have to provide evidence and at the very least a motive/reasoning for it, otherwise it's like dismissing dialogue from a VN as flowery without further elaboration.

What would be exaggerated would be the number of possibilities. They are hyping up the variety within the dungeons. The motive is that "infinite possibilities!" is a recognized idiom that sounds far better than "2,147,483,647 possibilities!"

And yet any verse with an infinite possibilities statement to their name isn't? You might as well argue anything said to contain infinite possibilities is just an idom meant for sounding better than the characters trying to put an unfathomly high finite number to it. And thats just, no offense, completely silly.

Guys, an "infinity" statement over something like this isn't just hyperbole without stuff backing that up that aren't just semantics, otherwise nearly, if not all 2-A verses would be downgraded as well as the same can be said for those cases.

Like I said before, there's a mountain of difference between a series' own statement of its cosmology when describing it, and promotional material for a procedurally-generated game about how many different ways you can play through it.

There blatantly isnt a difference when magnagates, as said before, are actual in-universe concepts that are part of the cosmology and not a game mechanic. So the statement applying to the magnagates ti describe it is the same thing as any other verse with an infinite possibilities remark.

But its also very bad to make an assumption of a limitation like that when it is not implied narratively or from what the anime shown. That the mirrors link to universes different from each other, which should suggest they don't link back. Being conservative is one thing, but assuming a limitation or weakness to something out of nowhere without evidence for it is unfounded.

"We should just assume that things have no limits because assuming limits is unfounded."

Thats not what I said and do not put words in my mouth. Theres a difference between assuming a limit when theres a basis to assume that and assuming a limit because we want to lowball for no reason. This case is the latter.

Overall, I am still in firm agreement with the upgrade being given.

 

[Darksmash]

Nah, but again, they went with my latter explanation.

Ash traveled from one mirror in his universe's reflection cave to another universe through a mirror in their reflection cave. To get back to his universe, Ash had to specifically go back through that specific mirror he went through in the first place. If other mirror's were able to link back to Ash's universe, that would not be required.

Ok,so are you saying that because the cave Ash went into did not share two mirrors for the same universe,that must mean any of the subsequent caves down the web will not share them? Obviously the same cave wouldn't share two mirrors with the same universe because that's just redundant.......

But its also very bad to make an assumption of a limitation like that when it is not implied narratively or from what the anime shown. That the mirrors link to universes different from each other, which should suggest they don't link back.

Being conservative is one thing, but assuming a limitation or weakness to something out of nowhere without evidence for it is unfounded.

The narrative also does not imply that there is no limitation. As far as I know If a size is not given for a universal feat we assume it's the observable universe by default. We don't assume it's infinite. So assuming it has a limitation should be what we should do by default.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It seems that I don't have to explain why I disagree with rating in itself; so I'll explain why I disagree with the PMD being canon.

The only proof is a statement of "trainer don't exist in this world" and "link cables reference".
Both having nothing to do with canonicity.

It's litteraly just a difference with canon being confirmed and a cheap reference you can find in any games spin-off under the MD or Dynatsy Warrior formula.
By the same logic, Hyrule Warriors is way more legit as a canon work than any PMD games.

 

[Agnaa]

Also, "is often used to mean "tons of stuff is possible"" is just blatantly being conservative for no reason than to dismiss the statement. Unless we're ready to downgrade any 2-A verse with an infinite possibilities comment in general. Keep the same energy or we're opening up a door to double standards.

If only you could read the part where I repeatedly say over and over again that the context as advertising material is what's important for the hyperbole interpretation.

This very same logic can be applied to universes, which are also finite structures with finite amounts of objects, people, events and whatnot. The size of the structure, whether a universe or dungeon, is irrelevant.

No, timelines don't have to be explicitly infinite to be tier 2. Your comparison doesn't hold, when universes are finite they're 3-A, when they're infinite they're High 3-A, when they're any form of timeline they're Low 2-C.

Yes, neccessarily. This is stated in the anime and shown by the fact that Ash goes to a universe through Reflection Cave, and that universe has its own reflection cave.

By not necessarily I mean something like: Each cave has 1000 mirrors that each lead to their own universe. When you go through one mirror it takes you to an AU where that mirror is the only one that leads to the original universe, but every other mirror leads to the same AUs that the original universe would have lead to.

Meaning that at any time, only 1 mirror will return you to the original world, but there are still only 1000 worlds accessible.

This is proposed as an alternative to your belief that the original cave would lead to, for example, 1000 worlds, which would each themselves lead to another 1000 unique worlds, and so on infinitely.

And again, that is wrong. You have absolutely no reason not to go with it being an infinite chain without being overly conservative, as thats the only way thsi low end exists. Its baseless.

Both are baseless, so go for the safe end instead of the unsubstantiated high-end.

Xenoblade and Dragon Ball Hereos from the very top of my head. They'd be remvoed because if your going to go by the logic of there not being infinite possible worlds accessible in game in MD, which is incredibly silly to argue as its completely impossible for that to happen mechanics wise, then the former 2 and every other 2-A verse gets the boot as well for it being the exact same thing.

I seriously doubt that. As I said in the thing you replied to, "Having infinitely many other timelines that we just don't end up accessing is worlds different from describing something that should clearly be finite, per how it functions, as infinite."

This isn't an argument. You can access Ultra Space from the same save file in Ultra Sun and Moon, despite the fact that the worlds in Ultra Space are blatantly different universes. Mystery Dungeon is no different because of the Magnagates used to access the dungeons.

Jesus Christ, if I make two points respond to both of them, instead of responding to the first and ignoring the second.

We do have in-game indication though. The magnagates, as Ploz explained in the very beginning of the thread. Combine that with the ad's statements and thats very explicit evidence of infinitely different worlds.

In what world does promo material referencing something canonical mean that any canonical reference of that thing is supporting the promotional material? That's nonsense. An ad saying that Yamcha can destroy outerverses does not make every appearance of Yamcha an in-cnaon indication. It actually has to support the promotional statement to be support.

Not to mention the infinite possibilities statement is repeated on the very back cover of the game box that I posted earlier, which isnt an ad and speaks details about the game's mystery dungeons.

Still promo material.

Based on? Advertisements are something that are directly overseen and managed by the very company and creators as a whole, I made a long in-depth comment about this earlier. Advertisements are the closest out-of-universe statements to Word of God, and are consistent.

If you think that advertisements are on the same level as lore books and WoG, we won't be able to reconcile that difference.

Uh, what? The maganate is a blatant in-universe concept in Mystery Dungeon, it is part of their lore. Its not gameplay whatsoever.

It's a concept that justifies the gameplay. They say it because of its gameplay ramifications.

Thats not what I said and do not put words in my mouth. Theres a difference between assuming a limit when theres a basis to assume that and assuming a limit because we want to lowball for no reason. This case is the latter.

Yeah, you only want limits to be assumed when there's "a basis aside from lowballing the character", and you want there to be no limits otherwise.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

The Link Cables in Mystery Dungeon literally allow them to connect to other Mystery Dungeon games in a similar fashion. They can allow you to do friend rescues with them, sending Wonder Mail, etc. So yes, it works in a similar way of connecting the two games for communication.

It's not a rash assumption at all. You do realize if they we're aiming for infinite universes like you're demanding here, it would literally be impossible. They'd only he able to reach infinity via an infinite amount of variable or a variable range that is infinite. The former is impossible because that would require you to have infinite data/storage which is impossible for literally any device. The latter would cause an infinite recursion loop that eventually crashes the system. You would never be able to truly replicate an infinite amount in your game, so you shouldn't use hardware limitations as your reason for why it's illegitimate. Minecraft has a similar thing where they have a canonically infinite-sized world, but the hardware limitations make the world only go up to a certain extent. That's one of the poorest routes you can go.

Okay, what of the genocide factor? That doesn't debunk the literal scan where Zinnia said a world took a different path where Mega Evolution is unknown because the Ultimate Weapon didn't fire. Dia's explanation is literally the same as MWI. It talks about how Dia's world can exist separately from Ash's and he refers to certain events that made that happen (which are different in Ash's timeline). I'm not insulting your knowledge; I'm just saying your explanation is objectively incorrect because you're saying what's literally being explained as MWI isn't MWI.

They literally treat it like that in the episode. No one said the mirrors don't link to other universes. The main thing is that not all of the universes are immediately connected at once if not all minimum 17 million mirrors are present.

What Link Cables in Mystery Dungeon? Red and Blue Rescue Team got remade, remember?

The reason it's a rash assumption is because you're implying that the Mystery Dungeons would exceed this limit, despite it never being shown. The statement is not actually that the Mystery Dungeons are infinite in size like Minecraft, but instead that they have infinite possibilities. Also again this only takes place IN the Mystery Dungeons.

Please point me to where she mentions the Ultimate Weapon, much less that's the reason why Mega Evolution is unknown. And Dia never mentions a part where every choice apparently creates a parallel universe; some phenomenon just causes them to split. How would I be saying it isn't MWI when I hadn't even been told what it was yet?

...Where tf you get 17 million universes from? Because I'm certain that cave doesn't have 17 million mirrors.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also, "is often used to mean "tons of stuff is possible"" is just blatantly being conservative for no reason than to dismiss the statement. Unless we're ready to downgrade any 2-A verse with an infinite possibilities comment in general. Keep the same energy or we're opening up a door to double standards.

If only you could read the part where I repeatedly say over and over again that the context as advertising material is what's important for the hyperbole interpretation.

And you could read the counter arguments that repeatedly go over and over again about how that isn't hyperbole, but we'd end up going nowhere.

This very same logic can be applied to universes, which are also finite structures with finite amounts of objects, people, events and whatnot. The size of the structure, whether a universe or dungeon, is irrelevant.

No, timelines don't have to be explicitly infinite to be tier 2. Your comparison doesn't hold, when universes are finite they're 3-A, when they're infinite they're High 3-A, when they're any form of timeline they're Low 2-C.

The point still holds either way. The size of the structure does not matter, we have literally never nitpicked infinite possibilities on any single level because of that.

Yes, neccessarily. This is stated in the anime and shown by the fact that Ash goes to a universe through Reflection Cave, and that universe has its own reflection cave.

By not necessarily I mean something like: Each cave has 1000 mirrors that each lead to their own universe. When you go through one mirror it takes you to an AU where that mirror is the only one that leads to the original universe, but every other mirror leads to the same AUs that the original universe would have lead to.

The bolded part is absolute headcanon and is again, hinging on the assumption that they are linking back when its unfounded speculation. The point of the mirrors leading to different unvierses is that they are different.

This is proposed as an alternative to your belief that the original cave would lead to, for example, 1000 worlds, which would each themselves lead to another 1000 unique worlds, and so on infinitely.

Yes because the latter is exactly how Reflection Cave has been demonstrably depicted as. You cant assume anything links back to the starting universe without a basis, that is a specific conservative assumption that needs a burden of proof.

And again, that is wrong. You have absolutely no reason not to go with it being an infinite chain without being overly conservative, as thats the only way thsi low end exists. Its baseless.

Both are baseless, so go for the safe end instead of the unsubstantiated high-end.

Thats not how this works. If both have no more chances of being likelier than the other, we take the middleground. And the middleground is no lower than Possibly 2-A.

Xenoblade and Dragon Ball Hereos from the very top of my head. They'd be remvoed because if your going to go by the logic of there not being infinite possible worlds accessible in game in MD, which is incredibly silly to argue as its completely impossible for that to happen mechanics wise, then the former 2 and every other 2-A verse gets the boot as well for it being the exact same thing.

I seriously doubt that. As I said in the thing you replied to, "Having infinitely many other timelines that we just don't end up accessing is worlds different from describing something that should clearly be finite, per how it functions, as infinite."

Nothing about how the Magnagates function would imply its finite.

We do have in-game indication though. The magnagates, as Ploz explained in the very beginning of the thread. Combine that with the ad's statements and thats very explicit evidence of infinitely different worlds.

In what world does promo material referencing something canonical mean that any canonical reference of that thing is supporting the promotional material?

The function of how said canonical reference works....?

That's nonsense. An ad saying that Yamcha can destroy outerverses does not make every appearance of Yamcha an in-cnaon indication. It actually has to support the promotional statement to be support.

Hilariously huge false equivalancy. Yamcha has 0 shit to even indicate he'd be outerversal from an ad. The mangagates and how they function as being different and never the same as each other cements the ad stating infinite possibilities.

Not to mention other ads that outright say theres infinite mystery dungeons.

Not to mention the infinite possibilities statement is repeated on the very back cover of the game box that I posted earlier, which isnt an ad and speaks details about the game's mystery dungeons.

Still promo material.

How? Its not an ad, its explaining explicitly stuff about the game......

Based on? Advertisements are something that are directly overseen and managed by the very company and creators as a whole, I made a long in-depth comment about this earlier. Advertisements are the closest out-of-universe statements to Word of God, and are consistent.

If you think that advertisements are on the same level as lore books and WoG, we won't be able to reconcile that difference.

For once we finally agree on one thing. It isnt on the same level as lore books. It should be higher than them since these aren't in-universe statements or details from a story. Its coming from the very higher ups working on the game itself. Which is essentially WoG level just like author authorization.

Uh, what? The maganate is a blatant in-universe concept in Mystery Dungeon, it is part of their lore. Its not gameplay whatsoever.

It's a concept that justifies the gameplay. They say it because of its gameplay ramifications.

It is still an in-universe concept in mystery dungeon that the characters know and use. Its part of the mystery dungeon world. Its not gameplay period.

Thats not what I said and do not put words in my mouth. Theres a difference between assuming a limit when theres a basis to assume that and assuming a limit because we want to lowball for no reason. This case is the latter.

Yeah, you only want limits to be assumed when there's "a basis aside from lowballing the character", and you want there to be no limits otherwise.

Im saying that I only want limits when you have an actual credible basis thats worth something to suggest theres a limit. Not throw an abitrary limit out of literally nowhere to create reasonable doubt. Thats an asspull.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The only proof is a statement of "trainer don't exist in this world" and "link cables reference".
Both having nothing to do with canonicity.

And we disagree, just as I disagreed the last time. Humans existing in the MD verse, along with Ploz's point on the Link Cables and the very nature of the multiverse having different worlds with different diverging events cements the ordinary pokemon world existing in MD.

Adding do that, another supporting point of Arceus being blatantly confirmed in MD canon as the creator of everything, which would further cememt this as it means MD follows the canon origin lore of Arceus being the creator of the verse as he is everywhere else.

Im going to bed soon and i'll be letting Ploz take charage on this note, but we disagree with dismissing canon based on this.

 

[Agnaa]

Since I don't want to spend 1000 years in this, anything I won't respond to here is stuff we've already gone over or I don't think we'll come to an agreement on, and which I've already presented my case on.

The bolded part is absolute headcanon and is again, hinging on the assumption that they are linking back when its unfounded speculation. The point of the mirrors leading to different unvierses is that they are different.

The reason I brought up headcanon is because you guys were acting like 2-A is the only possibility from the situation described in the OP. I have provided many alternate explanations. Considering that all of them have no basis in canon, there's no reason to give 2-A.

Or in other words, you guys were arguing that 2-A is the only logical implication, so I provided other logical implications with equal basis in canon material to disprove that point.

Yes because the latter is exactly how Reflection Cave has been demonstrably depicted as. You cant assume anything links back to the starting universe without a basis, that is a specific conservative assumption that needs a burden of proof.

I only said that the original mirror linked directly to the starting universe.

Thats not how this works. If both have no more chances of being likelier than the other, we take the middleground. And the middleground is no lower than Possibly 2-A.

I'd like there to be a lot more basis for even possibly 2-A if we're talking about a franchise that has spanned multiple decades, instead of a single statement about how a realm functions being able to be headcanon'd into 2-A.

Maybe this could be enough for a series that spanned a short comic run, a single game, one season of anime, a movie or a few, a couple of books, etc. But with something this long I think we need stricter standards for wide-impacting cosmological stuff. Maybe I'm looking for something akin to consistency? And a single dubious statement giving possibly 2-A feels like an outlier?

Hilariously huge false equivalancy. Yamcha has 0 shit to even indicate he'd be outerversal from an ad. The mangagates and how they function as being different and never the same as each other cements the ad stating infinite possibilities.

Them being different but still limited by game mechanics also lines up with my interpretation, so you can't really put it as evidence for your argument; it's neutral at best.

How? Its not an ad, its explaining explicitly stuff about the game......

You don't realize how game packaging is promotional/advertising? Amazing.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im about to go to bed so I will be responding to that tomorrow.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It sounds like the dungeons are just randomly generated

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I have no opinion on the whole business with the Reflection Cave, so I'll just input on the stuff involving Mystery Dungeon.

So, as far as I see, "infinite possibilities" is pretty much just a hyperbolic statement that is strictly being used to refer to gameplay, and has otherwise no relation to the actual lore of the game, and the fact that the use of this idiom comes from sources that privilege the former over the later (In this case, an ad and the back of a game box) only supports this even further; I've seen both Ploz and Kukui saying that this is a similar situation to Minecraft, which we would have to consider as finitely-big if we took gameplay limitations into account, but Minecraft at the very least is actually stated to have an infinite world by the End Poem, which is in-universe lore, so it's not a comparable scenario whatsoever.

All-in-all, if it's not obvious already: I disagree with this.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Replying only to the stuff that's relevant to what I said.

Those weren't examples of comparison in mechanics. Those were demonstrations that "infinite possibilities" is often used to mean "tons of stuff is possible". And given the context the statement was made in, we should take it to be the latter.

Also, it is practically impossible for none of the mystery dungeons to be the same, as they're all finite in size with finite ways they can be arranged with a finite amount of objects. For no two to ever be the same, there would either have to be infinite variations on scenery, or infinite different types of times, or infinite different species of pokemon.

Literally, all of your examples were related to purely gameplay aspects of something, nothing more. Okay, explain how the context would be the latter. We've already been over how the context of those statements is innately different from this one.

This entire last paragraph is dependent on the hardware limitations of the game to make the argument. I've explained this to Sean and I'll explain it again. You cannot have infinite variables because you'd have to have infinite storage which is physically impossible to ever have. You can't have a single variable with infinite values because that would literally crash any program you're running by eating up the memory. You don't even need to know basic coding to understand how that can't work realistically.

That is not a safe assumption. We do not assume that worlds leading to other worlds result in an infinite chain. That is never our default assumption without more context. We always go to 2-B in those cases.

If it's directly an expansionary chain that can connect to universes that aren't initially connected to others and go on, I don't see why we're placing the random limitation back on. Again, the entire reason is being conservative to be conservative, nothing else. The idea honestly that there's just some random point it decides to loop back makes less sense than it going on.

Oh **** off, I repeatedly explained it. I explained the idiom and how it would apply to this case. You ignored it until I presented some offhand examples of it being used in the same way, and then nitpicked those to death, despite the only reason for me presenting them to show that SOMETIMES SOME PEOPLE use it in that way.

Do you mean after you had to be asked? You explained how it would apply in a certain context that's not fully applicable to MD. I put a lot of emphasis on your examples because it demonstrates the problem with your argument. If you're trying to look at a statement through a context that's not the same, then we have a problem.

That is not how burden of proof works.

I never said it was. You're intentionally leaving out the context here so nice. The problem was Ion said a statement didn't exist in the Japanese versions when there had literally been no searching yet. You cannot just say something doesn't exist because you don't know about it. That's literally the epitome of an appeal to ignorance and ridiculously fallacious.

We don't accept dubious foreign statements because no-one has disproven it by showing the original yet, YOU need to dig up the original statement.

You've not explained once how it's dubious btw. The only example I've seen for why is criticizing Nintendo of America mistranslations when Nintendo of Europe are the ones actively with the statement (and we've already been over how NoE is generally regarded as being very credible with translations in direct opposition). I didn't say I was against trying to find the original as well. However, I'm not sure what you want me to do in that regard when literally nobody on this thread is a fluent Japanese speaker. You're asking people to find something they don't know what to exactly look for so that's problematic.

Lore books are miles apart from ******* advertisements.

We have the entire placement of the Oracles games literally dependent on a website. I never said lore books were the exact same as website statements either; you're putting words into my mouth that never came out.

"Idioms don't exist unless you find a series that is exactly the same as my one."

"Let's ignore all context even though you're supposed to determine if something is figurative or not through its context!"

That magnagate statement is obviously about gameplay.

It pertains to aspects literally stated in the lore too. Magnagates are literally one of the main plot points of the game with such importance that the Japanese game is literally named after them.

As far as I can tell, a "possibility" is not a recognized cosmological element in Pokemon with a consistent definition. The examples the OP has are:

1. There are two timelines, something happened in one that didn't in another (no mention of possibilities as a cosmological element, like other verses have).
2. There are other timelines where different things happened (still no mention of possibilities).
3. Dia saying that there are parallel timelines that split (again, no explicit mention of possibilities as a cosmological element).

@DDM For the love of god don't accept this off of that reasoning...

Are we really going down a route that we can't use basic logic to derive conclusions?

• Those timelines were one and the same until something firing or not firing caused a split in the timeline to where they became branching. It's literally a timeline split via an action happening in and not the other.
• Said timelines branch off and are literally based on the possibility of the main villains winning than losing.
• How you can look at what is the most blatant example of MWI without being explicitly called that and say it doesn't have those elements is beyond me. Dia literally explains that his world was born from something happening in his that doesn't happen in Ash. He later goes down the further diverges in timelines from there.

I'm gonna quote Wikipedia here to make a point on the description.

• "This implies that all possible outcomes of quantum measurements are physically realized in some "world" or universe."
• "The many-worlds interpretation implies that there are very many universes, perhaps infinitely many. It is one of many multiverse hypotheses in physics and philosophy. MWI views time as a many-branched tree, wherein every possible quantum outcome is realised."

Pokémon fits literally everything mentioned here: there are timelines where something does or doesn't happen that is fully realized as their own universes, Ultra Wormholes lead directly to a countless amount of universes minimum, Dia's diagram flat-out shows time as a many-branched formation, and these worlds Dia talks about are formed because of the different events that happen in them. Pokémon follows an idea that literally mentions other worlds existing via possibilities. Hell, every example mentioned above is directly related to a possibility where one thing happens and another doesn't. You shouldn't even need a statement like that with such explicit evidence. What you're doing here is literally like having every single aspect of an apple described to you and saying it's not an apple.

@DDM For the love of god don't accept this off of that reasoning...

Are we really putting people on the spot now because they didn't share your viewpoint? Come on now, you can do better than that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Uhm, I found this which should imply Infinite possibilities in the Pokémon universe already since said universe is infinite.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I agree with the 2-A upgrade

 

[DontTalkDT]

I think Agnaa's and Ultima's points make sense.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"It is your mission to battle your way through Mystery Dungeons that have sprung up across this world, and to uncover a fiendish plot that threatens your new home and its Pokémon inhabitants. No dungeon will appear in the same way twice, so an infinite number of possibilities can unfold," ~ Nintendo of Europe

So basically, the only real evidence that uses infinity in any way, shape, or form, is a website article from Nintendo of Europe (So not even the actual makers of the game) about how in Mystery Dungeon the dungeons have variety and won't appear similar.

This is ridiculous, in the context of the line the "infinite number of possibilities" is referring to the number of dungeons in the game in a blatantly hyperbolic fashion. It's not good evidence for timelines because the line isn't even about timelines to begin with.

This is why I say that people shouldn't try to upgrade people based on word association. People want to get 2-A Pokemon so they literally just wordsearch certain terms in hopes to finding a line about it, regardless of its contextual meaning, because if the word can refer to something else in another context then it obviously shall refer to it in any other, right?

I vehemently disagree with the upgrade because there is literally no evidence to support it.

The rest of the OP is utterly irrelevant since it's just other random stuff to prove that universes exist

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also already using this "If this is being downgraded then downgrade something else" fallacy.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I vehemently agree with the upgrade

Wut

On a serious note, I agree with Matt and Ultima.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Uhm, I found this which should imply Infinite possibilities in the Pokémon universe already since said universe is infinite.

No this is just talking about a single universe

 

[QuasiYuri]

And we disagree, just as I disagreed the last time. Humans existing in the MD verse, along with Ploz's point on the Link Cables and the very nature of the multiverse having different worlds with different diverging events cements the ordinary pokemon world existing in MD.

Adding do that, another supporting point of Arceus being blatantly confirmed in MD canon as the creator of everything, which would further cememt this as it means MD follows the canon origin lore of Arceus being the creator of the verse as he is everywhere else.

It's still not a proof of canonicity. Hyrule Warriors follows Zelda lore accurately and Zelda has a confirmed Multiverse, yet we don't consider it as canon.

Following obvious part of the canon never was a proof of canonicity, so Arceus point isn't relevant at all.

Now Link Cables... How tf is this a proof?

In canon Pokemon, Link Cables are scientific object created to counter the meteor in Delta ep by connecting two points in space time.

In PMD it's an object which make Pkmn evolve and is a 4th wall joke.

Also nothing support the alternate timeline headcanon. Hell, humans even exist in their normal form in MD since Sky Explorer protag fought alongside Celebi.

However PMD has countless stuff which aren't anywhere close from canon Pkmn:
Dialga the litteral god of time who created the multiverse? Becomes mad because of Time Tower, all he does is a mere "Planetary paralysis" and paradoxes are beyond his reach despite being nothing in canon.

Xerneas? Well he's actually a tree moving the whole planet, something which isn't remotely even implied in canon.

There's really not much to dismiss when canon PMD is more of a joke than anything tbh.

 

[Greenshifter]

No this is just talking about a single universe

Maybe his argument is that for an infinite-sized universe MWI gives infinite possibilities?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Maybe his argument is that for an infinite-sized universe MWI gives infinite possibilities?

^

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

There's really not much to dismiss when canon PMD is more of a joke than anything tbh.

Looking at Yuri's argumnts I agree that PMD isn't canon.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Agree with Non Canon PMD too

 

[StrymULTRA]

We agreed loooong ago even in the current canon blog (which I was there when it was created in the Old Forum) that Mystery Dungeon isn't canon anymore, aka whenever the 2-A possibilities statement is true doesen't matter anymore, we just didn't applied said changes since it was, well, the forum move.

However, the TCG as I told before, stated that the universe is infinite, as it implied from the description of the Infinite Space deck:

• Prepare to blast through the atmosphere! When you play with an Infinite Space theme deck, the fantastic powers of the cosmos are at your command! Palkia's Transback attack knocks an opponent's forces off the battlefield—making it almost impossible to put together an offensive against you! And, once you've silenced your opposition, Exploud will rip space apart with its Ambient Noise attack that blasts them out into nothingness!

Implied loudy that the "cosmos is infinite", and it was reffering to the universe since it is the very definition of the world, and in Gen 4 it can make clear the difference if it means the whole multiverse or just an universe, due of Diamond and Pearl games reffering to "all the dimension" (the whole multiverse for obvious reasons), while in the Darkrai movie with "the dimension" they were reffering to just the universe they were fighting in.

 

[FanSyst]

I asked the Reddit translation community and there are no infinite statements on the back cover of the game.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Strym Kind of a problem is that you’re using a name fallacy.

 

[Antvasima]

Ploz asked me to temporarily close this thread to give him and others time to prepare.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Just woke up, so i'll be responding to a lot of this:

The bolded part is absolute headcanon and is again, hinging on the assumption that they are linking back when its unfounded speculation. The point of the mirrors leading to different unvierses is that they are different.

The reason I brought up headcanon is because you guys were acting like 2-A is the only possibility from the situation described in the OP. I have provided many alternate explanations. Considering that all of them have no basis in canon, there's no reason to give 2-A.\

Who cares? No offense, but why should we care about these "many alternate explanations" that are 100% built on baselessness and headcanon about what could be going on and not what is? We dont pull stuff out of our ass and use that as reasonable doubt Agnaa, we go with an alternate explanation when there's a basis to go with it. And in your case there absolutely isn't.

We aren't saying that Reflection Cave is 100% 2-A as it was always just a supporting point. But we are insinuating that it not being 2-A at all based off headcanon is a wrong way to be going about this.

Or in other words, you guys were arguing that 2-A is the only logical implication, so I provided other logical implications with equal basis in canon material to disprove that point.

Key word: Equal. Not more.

Thats not how this works. If both have no more chances of being likelier than the other, we take the middleground. And the middleground is no lower than Possibly 2-A.

I'd like there to be a lot more basis for even possibly 2-A if we're talking about a franchise that has spanned multiple decades, instead of a single statement about how a realm functions being able to be headcanon'd into 2-A.

Maybe this could be enough for a series that spanned a short comic run, a single game, one season of anime, a movie or a few, a couple of books, etc. But with something this long I think we need stricter standards for wide-impacting cosmological stuff. Maybe I'm looking for something akin to consistency? And a single dubious statement giving possibly 2-A feels like an outlier?

How in the world does a cosmology have an outlier? That makes 0 sense and now it just sounds like your trying to dismiss evidence with points your making up on the fly. Nothing is being "headcanon'd into 2-A" because you seem to have this idea that there's no basis for it to eb 2-A in the first place, just as we have called out you having no basis for it to not be 2-A. We have a middleground here with neither being taken, thus we can go with "Possibly 2-A" to acknowledge both. Like we do with everything else here with a "Possibly" rating.

And im very certain that most of whats said here is just a popularity fallacy. Pokemon being a big franchise does not disqualify it from a something that has validity in working.

Them being different but still limited by game mechanics also lines up with my interpretation, so you can't really put it as evidence for your argument; it's neutral at best.

No it doesnt, because you cant use game mechanincs as an argumnet. At all. Or else bye bye 2-A game verses for the exact same thing.

You don't realize how game packaging is promotional/advertising? Amazing.

Well it at the very least most certainlty isnt something from a website, which you and others here have been so adamantly against getting accepted. So now this approach was brought in as a solution, and it still maintains consistency with an infinite possibilities statement.

So, as far as I see, "infinite possibilities" is pretty much just a hyperbolic statement that is strictly being used to refer to gameplay, and has otherwise no relation to the actual lore of the game, and the fact that the use of this idiom comes from sources that privilege the former over the later (In this case, an ad and the back of a game box) only supports this even further; I've seen both Ploz and Kukui saying that this is a similar situation to Minecraft, which we would have to consider as finitely-big if we took gameplay limitations into account, but Minecraft at the very least is actually stated to have an infinite world by the End Poem, which is in-universe lore, so it's not a comparable scenario whatsoever.

We've explained this already before Ultima. The statement isnt hyperbole, nor is it a game mechanic, because the statement is directly referring to the magnagates in mystery dungeon, which are the actual lore and in-universe concepts of the game. Magnagates being portals to other worlds to lead to these dungeons.

If Magnagates weren't an in-universe thing already, you would likely have a point about it being referred to gameplay. But that isn't the case with this. It's speaking to detail about what the Magnagates, and the mystery dungeons tied to them, are.

Also already using this "If this is being downgraded then downgrade something else" fallacy.

We use it because the arguments using to go against this upgrade with game mechanics as the basis can be directly applied to any other game with a 2-A verse. Not using it would in turn be a double standard.

It's still not a proof of canonicity. Hyrule Warriors follows Zelda lore accurately and Zelda has a confirmed Multiverse, yet we don't consider it as canon.

Honestly at this point, I don't care about Zelda Yuri. No offense. 2 wrongs do not make a right in this scenerio and if anything, I can easily just as much say that the Zelda canon is what needs to get changed.

We have absolutely 0 reason to dismiss something as canon with blatant evidence that its linked to the multiverse.

Following obvious part of the canon never was a proof of canonicity, so Arceus point isn't relevant at all.

Do not downplay this point with "following obvious part of canon" because its not just that. Arceus directly creates the MD continuity, which in and of itself proves its part of the regular multiverse as Arceus directly created the latter like he did the former. And with a multiverse with events that diverge in various different ways as much as Pokemon does, that gives it more support. This isn't some linear singular canon.

And as a small bit of support, the fact that not all spin off games dont follow up with this, or even acknowledge the existence of the god tiers, makes MD a different case compared to them.

In PMD it's an object which make Pkmn evolve and is a 4th wall joke.

Ploz already explained how the link cables between the 2 are the same. Dont dismiss it as a "4th wall joke"

Also nothing support the alternate timeline headcanon. Hell, humans even exist in their normal form in MD since Sky Explorer protag fought alongside Celebi.

Where did this happen?

However PMD has countless stuff which aren't anywhere close from canon Pkmn:
Dialga the litteral god of time who created the multiverse? Becomes mad because of Time Tower, all he does is a mere "Planetary paralysis" and paradoxes are beyond his reach despite being nothing in canon.

This is for Primal Dialga, not normal Dialga. And this happened in the first place because of Darkrai's meddling.

Xerneas? Well he's actually a tree moving the whole planet, something which isn't remotely even implied in canon.

Again, different universes, different events can happen. We aren't goingto say ORAS isnt canon because of Primal Reversion being a thing in their universe and not the universes of the OG Ruby and Sapphire are we? So what makes this case with Xerneas different?

 

[AKM sama]

I think Agnaa, Yuri, Ultima and Matt make some solid points.

 

[Antvasima]

AKM:

Should this thread remain closed or not?