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Deagonx

Deagonx

VS Battles Thread Moderator
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  • DaMonkeMan
    How long's the threadban though?
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    It's permanent. We discussed it at length and decided there was little utility in attempting to measure it, as the only difference between being thread banned and not is that you'll have to ask a staff member when you're involved a report, but (realistically) no one is involved in reports so routinely that this would become a significant chore, as very very very few users end up in RVR in any way and even fewer interject out of turn.

    In a perfect world we would just have all comments in RVR go through the mod approval queue before landing in order to prevent the stir of drama from getting out of hand, but I don't know that it's possible in our forum system.
    DaMonkeMan
    DaMonkeMan
    In a perfect world we would just have all comments in RVR go through the mod approval queue before landing in order to prevent the stir of drama from getting out of hand, but I don't know that it's possible in our forum system.
    Click to expand...
    I'm pretty sure some forums do that.
    Like Fanverse, for example.
    So it's certainly possible.
    Anyway thank you for the answer.
    I'll get off your profile now.
    Serlock_Holmes
    These statements in the gow thread sure seem like the ichigo statement by aizen and I'm pretty sure ichigo isn't infinitely beyond him.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Which statement?
    Serlock_Holmes
    Serlock_Holmes
    That aizen couldn't even feel ichigo's power and . And also that his power far surpasses anything else. Those statements are pretty much the same and yet are treated quite differently. Also the jin mo ri situation. Just sending you thato to point these things out as it seems iffy for a similar situation to be treated differently.
    Georredannea15
    Instead of deleting my comments, you can kindly say "please don't bother me".

    And yes, as I said, these are the producer's interviews, not our reviews.
    View previous comments…
    Georredannea15
    Georredannea15
    Well, you have provided no evidence for what you said and you are proceeding with the policy of "I am the staff, I am always right".

    Anyway, I won't tire you any further. It would be disrespectful to you.
    Georredannea15
    Georredannea15
    Yes. A vague notion of a "higher existence" doesn't guarantee QS in our standards.
    Click to expand...
    You still think that's the only statement... Anyway, I won't say any more.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Stop commenting on my wall.
    SweetDao
    View previous comments…
    HammerStrikes219
    HammerStrikes219
    Also using what Executor say isn’t a support for High 1B nor against it since again, Japanese is a context dependent language which is true, but the same applies to other language as this isn’t exactly exclusive to Japanese.

    However, I should note that from my point of view, just because a language is heavily context dependent doesn’t make it a free pass from not being scrutinized, rather it should analyzed carefully
    SweetDao
    SweetDao
    Hello once again Deagonx, may I know if I'm allowed to answer Shadow post? I would like to do so out of courtesy since he took time to answer me, but if you feel it's better to wait for further staff input instead of back and forth, I understand.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    You can
    SweetDao
    Hello once again Deagonx. May I be allowed to make another comment in the Nasu Thread? I would like to add 2 points I forgot to deal with alongside slightly tackling what Tdjwo mentioned if that's fine by you.
    (Similarly, I sent you a message on Discord to talk about something related to all of that)
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Can you show me a draft
    SweetDao
    SweetDao
    I forgot to mention two points in my original post because I was in a hurry to write it, I apologize for that.

    She says that she was demonized by Sabbat and gained higher dimensional senses that made her omnipotent in this dimension.
    Click to expand...
    Dimension and dimensional are used quite loosely in that sentence. The "in this dimension" clearly means a plane of existence, not an "additional spatial axis". Therefore what Kiara effectively did was be able to see a greater place beyond the "human world" that I assume is beyond the regular universe. I'll explain why at one point.

    The thing is, "Higher-dimensional" has either two or three significations here. The first one would be quite literally "Seeing things as 4D/5D". The second one would be "higher dimensional" in the sense that she sees a place beyond her world. The third one would assume that "higher dimensional" is not something literal but in fact poetic or metaphorical. Before anything, no "her being omnipotent in that dimension" doesn't disprove what I'm going to say right now.

    In this scan, we see Kiara saying something very interesting. Her goal during her life was to "gain true sight" therefore finding the right perspective, the truth. The same truth that she states to have beheld. Notice how she doesn't say "a part of the truth" but very factually states that it is "the truth of the world.".

    To explain in one sentence, gaining such a new perspective allowed her to peer into another plane of existence that made her realize how minuscule/powerless she was. Nothing more, nothing less. In fact, she further cements what I'm trying to say when she states the following :

    "What then was the purpose of my metamorphosis, if all my efforts served to do was demonstrate to me how pitiful I was?"
    Click to expand...
    She didn't wish to get "higher dimensional" but just obtain what she sought. Remember who took Kiara as an example? Roa himself. The first thing he said is "how endless the perception of humans is", and how no matter transcendent you are, there is still someone above you.

    Kiara is the perfect example to illustrate his words, yes. But not in a High 1-B perspective. The only factual thing that happened is Kiara "being" inside another plane of existence and seeing stronger people around her. She reached a place that is qualitative, not quantitative. Or in other words "Because Kiara got to that place, she realized there were always people stronger than her." and not "Kiara got to that place, but an infinite number of other qualitative places exist above her with stronger people inside."

    Nothing indicates any sort of infinite dimensional hierarchy, especially because Roa used Kiara as an example. This just shows how shallow perception can be sometimes. Be it in the human world or in the "demonic heavens", there is always someone above you, Roa is just making a parallel really.

    The main issue now is obviously the fact that she is stated as omnipotent in the regular world. As I explained earlier, it all depends on what "dimension" truly means here. However, seeing the antecedents with Nasuverse regarding higher dimension, it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that "Higher-dimensional senses" means at the same time a dimensionally superior point of view (as in metaphorical), alongside an actual superiority over her plane of existence (as in physical). I personally can't imagine the usage of such words to mean "4D/5D" stuff, that would make no sense at all in the context.

    As for why I mentioned that for me the demonic heavens shouldn't be in the universe, I'll tackle it now. Roa states that Kiara is still bound to this universe, indeed. However, when he tells the story, he explains why she was still bound inside it. It's because she decided to stay on her own accord, not because the demonic heavens were within the universe itself.

    Now, Roa said this :

    "But even she is still bound by her material form---- still bound to this universe. As for why-----"
    Click to expand...
    The sentence is self-explanatory. If she was still bound to this universe because she willingly decided to stay, it means that if she had wanted to fully embrace the demonic heavens she wouldn't be bound to this universe anymore. Therefore it's not a stretch to say that the demonic heavens aren't within the human universe. (Little additional note: I talked with KingNanaya and he explained to me that maybe the demonic heavens could be on the reverse side of the world, but idk what it entails tbf so I'll not delve deeper into that.)

    Roa himself states that what Kiara was able to sense was the "outside" of the world. Whatever it even means. Although I would interpret it with it meaning something outside of the universe. Moreover, what he is doing is more or less an existential crisis since he understands that seeking strength (like Kiara) or happiness is useless. Thanks to his reincarnations, he understood that what was truly important is to continue to exist "as a self" rather than as a person. I'll take what he means more conceptually as in "an identity that doesn't belong to only one body".

    As for a little counter-argument for Tdjwo post :

    This implies that Raum who is also higher dimensional(6D, likely 8D) wasn't able to affect the inside the Universe because the Universe itself was preventing him from doing so. So while this isn't a blatant showcase of an High 1B universe, it still helps us understand that the Universe is the reason that higher dimensional beings can't transcend it. Add this scan with Roa's statement of "infinite levels of transcendence still being bound to the universe," then you will get a very concrete High 1B statement tying to the Universe.
    Click to expand...
    You said it yourself, it's absolutely not dealing with an infinite dimensional universe. You're trying to plaster something that could make sense but feels like a stretch. If at least there was some sort of mention of "dimensional", "dimensions", space attribute, or whatever, I could see the link but right now it feels like trying to put the "High 1-B statement" into the situation to explain things that I'm sure made sense on their own within the narrative itself. Moreover as explained above, Kiara was going to leave the universe if she truly wanted to do so, but she preferred to remain within it, so it wouldn't even make sense/impact the universe itself if somehow the statement is High 1-B.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Okay, you can post that.
    Tdjwo
    Can I get your permission to discuss on this thread?
    • Like
    Reactions: Huesito88
    View previous comments…
    Tdjwo
    Tdjwo
    Yeah, you're right but mine is somewhat different from his. I will write the draft and send it soon.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    I should clarify, the difference needs to be fairly significant. If I read it and feel like its 80-90% the same, I'd rather you just propose the extra 10-20% in a shorter comment than trying to write a full rebuttal that mostly echoes what Nanaya already said.
    • Like
    Reactions: Tdjwo
    Tdjwo
    Tdjwo
    I already sent a dm to you about the thread. Can I post it?
    SweetDao
    Hello Deagonx and sorry to bother you, I would like to you know if I could get permission to comment on this thread.

    However, I'm not that much knowledgeable in Fate besides the very obvious stuff. Heck, I didn't know who Roa was before that stuff. Therefore if you refuse to grant me permission because of this, I would understand.

    My main contention with the thread is the fact that somehow, we use the words of someone like Roa as an absolute truth to deduce infinite higher dimensions when, frankly, I feel like he was just ranting about the finitude and shackles of existence. I mean his whole gimmick is literally transcending death by reincarnation, so I feel it's not completely out of context to assume.

    While I know it's not a massive argument for what I'm saying, there exists a similar saying in Chinese, There are people beyond (this) person, and skies beyond (this) sky. And the proverb in itself means literally the same thing as what Roa is saying.

    Roa : No matter how transcendent we become, there is always a higher level.

    Proverb : No matter how good you think you are, there is always someone out there that is better.

    The second case clearly doesn't refer to an infinitude of people above you, it's just metaphorical at most. We could also deal with the fact Roa uses Kiara to illustrate his words, but the fact "dimension" here is clearly used as a "plane of existence" rather than spatial ones is enough to disprove such a statement.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Sure, can you post a draft here of what you intend to say exactly?
    SweetDao
    SweetDao
    I have some contention with the quote of Roa. Moreover, I feel like the bigger context of the scene was left out by these screenshots themselves.

    In the first scan, we can see there is a bit of text untranslated at the top. When translated, it gave me the following quote :

    Why reincarnate? It would be easier to continue living as an individual and not bother others.

    Since the literal following of the sentence is him talking about how "endless is the human perception and path to omnipotence" we can safely assume that the context before that sentence is important to truly grasp the meaning of it. He first and foremost talks about himself and reincarnation before talking about higher-dimensional stuff. Maybe I'm wrong, but no matter what, I STRONGLY feel that everyone needs the full scene and not just the interesting tidbits to fully understand the scene.

    As such I strongly advocate for a link or a fully screenshotted album of that scene before making any assumptions regarding what it could give.

    With that out of the way, I would like to tackle Roa's quote directly.

    There is no end to human perception, no end to the path to omnipotence. No matter how transcendent we become, there is always a higher level
    Click to expand...
    I have a massive problem with that latter half. No matter how I read it or I interpret it, I can only see someone talking about the meaningless of the "human" existence and the finitude of life. His whole "There is no end to human perception" feels more like he's saying "There is no true path and people see stuff differently" rather than literally stating "Perception can extend to infinite dimensions". Of course, it's with taking the context BEFORE the quote itself.

    The part with the endless path to omnipotence is interesting but no matter how you interpret it, you can't assume it's dealing with "endless levels of higher dimensions to reach omnipotence".

    One of the main reasons for this is because Kiara gained supposed "omnipotence" through higher-dimension senses in this dimension.
    She says that she was demonized by Sabbat and gained higher dimensional senses that made her omnipotent in this dimension.
    Click to expand...
    Now here is the thing. Either what Kiara gained isn't what we can proclaim as "true omnipotence" or she indeed gained the very same omnipotence Roa was talking about. If it's the second case, I would request an explication on why getting higher dimensional senses somehow would grant her omnipotence but I guess it's explained somewhere or just fate doing fate stuff. There is a more interesting question to ask and it's the fact Roa only used Kiara (who was higher dimensional +1 to the humans) to illustrate his words. If I can remember correctly, there was also a scene (somehow not in the OP too) where Kiara is seen as being a mere ant in front of the demonic heavens or whatever their name was, and she preferred to stay/return to the human world.

    Here is the quote I'm referring to.

    My view on that matter is really simple. What could be regarded as omnipotence for someone might just be a power gap for someone else. Those demonic gods are more powerful than Kiara, but nothing dictates that it must be in a Higher Dimensional kind of way.

    In fact, I'll go even further, just like the beginning of the scene was Roa dealing with existence in a metaphorical way (reincarnation/sense of self), I'm quite sure Kiara, who said something similar, is also referring to the finitude and meaninglessness of her existence in front of higher being.

    I spent my whole life trying to gain the eyes to see, but what those eyes saw was not only the truth of the world, but also a lesser version of me.
    It was as if I had strived to know my own miserable self.
    No matter how small the world may be, this me is worth a little more than that one over there?
    Click to expand...
    Notice that we're dealing with "eyes to see", the ability to perceive mentioned by Roa himself. This whole rant is nothing more than a way for himself to explain to the reader that there is no way to truly achieve freedom. Be it via reincarnation, higher dimensionality, or omnipotence, there is no way to truly gain what he's searching.

    Alongside that, I would like to now tackle his semantics.
    There is no end to human perception, no end to the path to omnipotence. No matter how transcendent we become, there is always a higher level.
    Click to expand...
    With everything I explained above, we can safely assume that the latter half is nothing more than him saying, poetically or metaphorically, that there is always someone above you, in the sense that there is someone better than you.

    While not a strong argument, there is a similar proverb in Chinese.
    No matter how good you think you are, there is always someone out there that is better.
    Click to expand...
    I don't think someone reading this would understand "there is an infinite hierarchy of people better than me", no. It just means there is always a sky above you in a conceptual manner, not in a literal way. In my opinion, this is exactly what Roa is doing there. Therefore, I disagree with the usage of that statement to grant a High 1-B Tier.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Okay, that looks good to me.
    Agnaa
    Deagonx said:
    However, for a user to comment indefinitely, they need Bureaucrat approval, they can't just keep renewing approval from a thread mod and circumvent that restriction.
    Click to expand...
    Can you explain where this is said?

    I was under the impression that thread mods and admins could keep renewing their approval on a post-by-post basis, as that would be equivalent to them making the posts themselves.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    I don't believe it was spelled out explicitly, but it seems like the natural conclusion from the limitation. Otherwise the differentiation would be somewhat meaningless?

    Although in this case even if that was the rule, I am not okay with him receiving a no from me and seeking out another mod in response
    Agnaa
    Agnaa
    The differentiation would be that we want staff members looking over every post, to make sure that they don't go in unnecessary circles. I've done that myself, given permission for 2 or 3 and then stopped once they stopped bringing up new points.

    Fair enough.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Fair enough. Perhaps we need more clarity on it.
    Thelastmlg
    View previous comments…
    Thelastmlg
    Thelastmlg
    "i think adding "physical" to the movement wouldn't make a difference since pretty much all speed feats, or even a lot time travel, uses physical movement, more importantly, changing "beyond" to "through" might not help much because a lot of feats that people think are immesurable are just time travel activated with speed or just movement/gestures, and this might confuse others"

    "the main thing about immensurable speed is that your movement is not bound to the flow of time, as in, you aren't obligatted to have your actions take place in the present and affect the future like the usual timeline, you can interact with, reach and react to any of the 3 periods of time due to not being stuck in any of them at once"

    "so technically speaking, movement "beyond" linear time is perfect, the issue is that a lot of time, "beyond" and "transcending" are related to simply breaking out of the grasp of time and/or space by moving around them with more freedom, regardless of the methods utilized, such as powers or devices, if they were to use those words to refer to actual movement that surpass the limits of time itself, instead of the mere act of going from Hour A to Hour B, it would be accurate"

    "so instead, we could perhaps change it to "movement that is not limited to linear time" or something that emphasis on your freedom"
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Sure, but begin your post by saying I gave you permission so that theres no confusion.
    Thelastmlg
    Thelastmlg
    alrighty
    Georredannea15
    The plane of existence, which is claimed as the called "higher plane of existence", actually stems from its being on an inaccessible and incomprehensible plane of existence that transcends infinite 4-D universes, 4-D beings, 4-D powers and all other mythologies.

    Higher existence resides on an inaccessible plane of existence that completely transcends all lower planes and beings. In parallel with this, it has a higher power that they cannot reach. This is why it is called the "higher plane of existence".

    As a result, no power, mind, spirit or existence on the lower plane of existence can reach this higher plane of existence. The reason is UES bullshit.
    Phsccarvalho
    I have a question about HDE.

    Let's say such energy is accepted to be 4D. And a being is made of that 4D energy. Could this qualify as being HDE?
    Samael_010
    What your opinion on Lucifer being TGD?
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    It contradicts some of his earlier depictions, but makes sense with the Watters run and the current TGD arc.
    EndlessWords
    Hi Deagonx.
    I wanted to ask your permission to comment on this thread.
    I want to make a clarification on the statements that are used for this revisiob because for me, the statements that give tier 1-A to the verse are simply unusable because they literally mean nothing.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    You should ask Ultima or another admin. That thread is already pretty messy and I don't want to add to that.
    EndlessWords
    EndlessWords
    Very well, thank you for your reply.
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