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Remake of Jin Mori Dan HDE Removal (Part 1 of ???? HDE Removals)

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PrinceofPein

PrinceofPein

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Mori has HDE on his profile the reasons for that is
Higher-Dimensional Existence (4-D - Exists in a place where space and time overlap, and can oversee all of creation from this realm)
Click to expand...
This is not HDE, so it should be removed. It should be proven that he has an extra dimensional axis which there is none or nothing to imply that based on my knowledge on the series.
The term "Higher-Dimensional Existence" refers to objects and entities that exist in more than the regular 3-dimensional space, with at least one additional dimension. It is important to note that certain criteria must be met for an object or entity to be considered Higher-Dimensional.

Simply viewing 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs as fiction does not qualify them as Higher-Dimensional, as they are still portrayed as regular 3-dimensional beings.
Ontological differences over 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs, with three or more dimensions, are often a measure of power and do not necessarily indicate the presence of an extradimensional axis.
Being infinitely larger than or containing infinite 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs signifies an uncountable infinite difference, which can suggest qualitative superiority. However, without further context, this does not necessarily imply the existence of an extradimensional axis.
Simply stating that something is from a Higher Plane or a Higher Existence does not necessarily imply the existence of an extradimensional axis in relation to 3-dimensional entities or objects. Statements that something is Higher Dimensional also need to be interpreted in context, as authors at times use the term figuratively.
Stating that something is Extra-Dimensional simply means it comes from outside of the regular 3-dimensional space. It does not necessarily mean that it has an extradimensional axis in contrast to 3-dimensional objects, without further context.
Stating that something transcends space or space and time does not necessarily imply that it has an extradimensional axis or that it pertains to the geometry of the object.
Click to expand...
Agree: @LordGriffin1000, @Firestorm808, @Deagonx
Neutral:
Disagree: @LephyrTheRevanchist
 
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I have no knowledge on the series so my thoughts won't hold much weight but the scan seems to imply that place is above the normal universe and allows for one to oversee the what's what throughout the normal universe which would seem like 4-D but given our strict standards this would need something like the realm being stated to transcend time-space or to be a higher dimensional structure for an example. Not sure time and space overlapping is enough but I don't know anything about the verse so I just don't know.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
Seems so, not sure what change honestly. Though our Higher Dimensional stuff changes from time to time but the OP hasn't mentioned anything.
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Literally nothing. Pein copy-pasted the OP and even removed the original reasoning they had written in the earlier thread. If nothing is different with no new arguments or anything, why try and change it?
 
I agree, exist in higher plane doesnt mean you are in same level of existence as the higher plane
 
Fixxed said:
I agree, exist in higher plane doesnt mean you are in same level of existence as the higher plane
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This is true. We'd need conformation that he achieved a similar level of existence and wasn't just brought there.

In the scan it does state he'll become all powerful so I assume it has something to due with staying in that dimension but again, I don't know the series.
 
Well the HDE page was just updated and this have been added to it
The term "Higher-Dimensional Existence" refers to objects and entities that exist in more than the regular 3-dimensional space, with at least one additional dimension. It is important to note that certain criteria must be met for an object or entity to be considered Higher-Dimensional.

  • Simply viewing 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs as fiction does not qualify them as Higher-Dimensional, as they are still portrayed as regular 3-dimensional beings.
  • Ontological differences over 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs, with three or more dimensions, are often a measure of power and do not necessarily indicate the presence of an extradimensional axis.
  • Being infinitely larger than or containing infinite 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs signifies an uncountable infinite difference, which can suggest qualitative superiority. However, without further context, this does not necessarily imply the existence of an extradimensional axis.
  • Simply stating that something is from a Higher Plane or a Higher Existence does not necessarily imply the existence of an extradimensional axis in relation to 3-dimensional entities or objects. Statements that something is Higher Dimensional also need to be interpreted in context, as authors at times use the term figuratively.
  • Stating that something is Extra-Dimensional simply means it comes from outside of the regular 3-dimensional space. It does not necessarily mean that it has an extradimensional axis in contrast to 3-dimensional objects, without further context.
  • Stating that something transcends space or space and time does not necessarily imply that it has an extradimensional axis or that it pertains to the geometry of the object.
Click to expand...

Also the reason in my OP is just that he does not qualify based on our standards, which is just that.
 
I have no idea how they assume that because he exist to where space and time overlap, he equalised his level of existence to that plane of existence without extra statement. This seems like it shouldn't have been HDE in the first place.
 
Georredannea15 said:
I have no idea how they assume that because he exist to where space and time overlap, he equalised his level of existence to that plane of existence without extra statement. This seems like it shouldn't have been HDE in the first place.
Click to expand...
Read the last thread on the matter, it got posted above.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Read the last thread on the matter, it got posted above.
Click to expand...
I know, and what I'm saying is that just because a character ascends to the place where space and time overlap doesn't necessarily mean that that character has raised their plane of existence to that level. He may still be occupying the 3-D axis of 4-D space and time.

In short, you're gonna need some more bullshit.
 
DaReaperMan said:
And, pray tell Pein... why the FETH is this not in the damn OP?!
Click to expand...
Again because he just does not qualify
Georredannea15 said:
I have no idea how they assume that because he exist to where space and time overlap, he equalised his level of existence to that plane of existence without extra statement. This seems like it shouldn't have been HDE in the first place.
Click to expand...
A place where space and time overlap means nothing and does not mean 4D to begin with and it is vague
 
PrinceofPein said:
Again because he just does not qualify

A place where space and time overlap means nothing and does not mean 4D to begin with and it is vague
Click to expand...
According to my thoughts, a place where space and time overlap, in short, intersect/merge, must be 4-dimensional because there spatial and temporal dimensions coexist, but this does not necessarily mean that someone who can be there equates the plane of existence to that plane.
 
Georredannea15 said:
I know, and what I'm saying is that just because a character ascends to the place where space and time overlap doesn't necessarily mean that that character has raised their plane of existence to that level. He may still be occupying the 3-D axis of 4-D space and time.

In short, you're gonna need some more bullshit.
Click to expand...
Uhuh.
PrinceofPein said:
Again because he just does not qualify

A place where space and time overlap means nothing and does not mean 4D to begin with and it is vague
Click to expand...
You got atomic leg drop'd in that last thread Pein, new standards might change things, and that's why the thread is made, but I really dont want to see old points brought up here
 
SeijiSetto said:
People are absolutely allowed to bring up old points if they're valid. If said old points have already been debunked, however, then there's no point in doing so and it's just wasting time.
Click to expand...
Well the old point is that he holds som sort of R>F which is not HDE like I said on the thread, but I got it officially added to the page
Simply viewing 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs as fiction does not qualify them as Higher-Dimensional, as they are still portrayed as regular 3-dimensional beings
Click to expand...
 
If the only thing new here is the HDE rules change, why doesn't the OP talk about why, and the rationale why GoH doesn't qualify? There are more contexts and information that are not present in the justification.

We had 2 pages of this on the previous attempt. I think at least the OP should do is explain why the previous crt supporters' arguments are invalid under the new HDE rules.
 
I disagree

I'm pretty sure Mori fulfills the higher-dimensional requirement given that he has already demonstrates qualitative superiority in the mathematical sense too. Interactions between a high dimension being & lower dimensional being, pretty much suggest that a lower dimensional being can only perceive the cross section of a higher-dimensional being. This means that they can only interacts with the portion of that being that intersects the lower plane, like how a cube looks like a square to a 2 dimensional being since they can’t see the whole thing and so on.

larger.jpg



We already have qualitative superiority, and the way Mori interacts with lower-dimensional beings does suggest, and imply higher-dimensional existence since we have further context that supports it. By the end of the series it’s made pretty clear that Mori’s true form simply doesn’t exist in the lower dimension, because for one his essence can exist it various spaces, at different times simultaneously. That's why avatars that can be projected into the lower dimension in any space, at any time are used to interact with lower-dimensional beings. Also it is literally impossible for lower-dimensional beings to exist in the realm beyond Nirvana, since it' was specifically stated only those that can achieve Nirvana end up there meaning this existence, this "place" must be achieved, it's not something that's bestowed upon you for good behavior, or pity.

Mori’s true form should be infinitely larger than the the space-time his avatar occupies, since Mubong realized that he was incapable of destroying Mori's true body. It does not exist in the lower dimension. When Mori is interacting with lower-dimensional beings, he doesn't “make himself smaller" or "reduce the dimensionality of his true body" he projects avatars that can interact with lower dimensional beings at any given point in time, while his true form NEVER manifest in the lower realm, same for Xuanzang who’s another being that achieved nirvana, she projects avatars across various points in time as well. Mori using "pieces" of himself to interact with lower-dimensional beings seems very similar to how lower dimensional beings can only interact with the cross sections or "a piece" of higher dimensional beings. In fact, Satan mistook Mori for a higher-dimensional being, when in fact it was Xuangzang who was secretly protecting Mori.

Mori simultaneously existed in:

1)The present with Ahan and baby Taejin,

2)The past when he projected his avatar and affected it (a paradox)

3) In a different dimension, aka Nirvana with Xuanzang

All three of the scans above happened simultaneously, pieces of Mori are existing at multiple points in time & space while his true body remains in Nirvana. The way EoS Mori interacts with lower dimensional beings seems very similar lower dimensional being can only perceive pieces or "cross sections" of the higher dimensional beings.
 
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Xinsignia1 said:
I disagree

I'm pretty sure Mori fulfills the higher-dimensional requirement given that he has already demonstrative qualitative superiority in the mathematical sense too. Interactions between a high dimension being & lower dimensional being pretty much suggest that a lower dimensional being can only perceive the cross section of a higher-dimensional, as in the portion of that being that intersects the lower plane, like how a cube looks like a square to a 2 dimensional being since they can’t see the whole thing and so on.

larger.jpg



We already have qualitative superiority, and the way Mori interacts with lower-dimensional beings does suggest and imply higher-dimensional existence since we have further context that supports it. By the end of the series it’s made pretty clear that Mori’s true form simply doesn’t exist in the lower dimension, because for one his essence can exist it various spaces in at different times simultaneously, that's why avatars that can be projected into the lower dimension in any space, at any time are used. Also it is literally impossible for lower-dimensional beings to exist in the realm beyond Nirvana, since it' was specifically stated only those that can achieve Nirvana end up there meaning this existence, this "place" must be achieved, it's not something that's bestowed bestow upon you for good behavior, or pity.

Mori’s true form should be infinitely larger than the than the space-time his avatar occupies, since Mugon realized that he was incapable of destroying Mori's true body. It does not exist in the lower dimension since. When Mori is interacting with lower-dimensional beings, he doesn't “make himself smaller" or "reduce the dimensionality of his true body" he projects avatars that can interact with lower dimensional beings at any given point in time, while his true form NEVER manifest in the lower realm, same for Xuanzang who’s another being that achieved nirvana, she projects avatars across various points in time as well. Mori using "pieces" of himself lower-dimensional beings seems very similar to how lower dimensional beings can only interact with the cross sections of "a piece" of higher dimensional beings. In fact, Satan mistook Mori for a higher-dimensional being, when in fact it was Xuangzang who was secretly protecting Mori. That definitly fo

Mori simultaneously existed in:

1)The present with Ahan and baby Taejin,

2)The past when he projected his avatar and affected it (a paradox)

3) In a different dimension, aka Nirvana with Xuanzang

All three of the scans above happened simultaneously, pieces of Mori are existing at multiple points in time & space while his true body remains in Nirvana. The way EoS Mori interacts with lower dimensional beings seems very similar lower dimensional being can only perceive pieces or "cross sections" of the higher dimensional beings.
Click to expand...

Disagree with the OP FRA.
 
Disagree with OP FRA.

Epsilon_R said:
Also the creation of that thread feels out of spite idk how to explain it
Click to expand...
Nah I get you. First thread was made, didn't get passed. Pein made a CRT to get the HDE standards changed, and now the same thread is made. It does look that way, from a glance at least.
 
Yeah, after reading Xinsignia's post, I disagree as well.
 
Xinsignia1 said:
I disagree

I'm pretty sure Mori fulfills the higher-dimensional requirement given that he has already demonstrates qualitative superiority in the mathematical sense too. Interactions between a high dimension being & lower dimensional being, pretty much suggest that a lower dimensional being can only perceive the cross section of a higher-dimensional being. This means that they can only interacts with the portion of that being that intersects the lower plane, like how a cube looks like a square to a 2 dimensional being since they can’t see the whole thing and so on.

larger.jpg



We already have qualitative superiority, and the way Mori interacts with lower-dimensional beings does suggest, and imply higher-dimensional existence since we have further context that supports it. By the end of the series it’s made pretty clear that Mori’s true form simply doesn’t exist in the lower dimension, because for one his essence can exist it various spaces, at different times simultaneously. That's why avatars that can be projected into the lower dimension in any space, at any time are used to interact with lower-dimensional beings. Also it is literally impossible for lower-dimensional beings to exist in the realm beyond Nirvana, since it' was specifically stated only those that can achieve Nirvana end up there meaning this existence, this "place" must be achieved, it's not something that's bestowed bestow upon you for good behavior, or pity.

Mori’s true form should be infinitely larger than the the space-time his avatar occupies, since Mubong realized that he was incapable of destroying Mori's true body. It does not exist in the lower dimension since. When Mori is interacting with lower-dimensional beings, he doesn't “make himself smaller" or "reduce the dimensionality of his true body" he projects avatars that can interact with lower dimensional beings at any given point in time, while his true form NEVER manifest in the lower realm, same for Xuanzang who’s another being that achieved nirvana, she projects avatars across various points in time as well. Mori using "pieces" of himself lower-dimensional beings seems very similar to how lower dimensional beings can only interact with the cross sections of "a piece" of higher dimensional beings. In fact, Satan mistook Mori for a higher-dimensional being, when in fact it was Xuangzang who was secretly protecting Mori. That definitly fo

Mori simultaneously existed in:

1)The present with Ahan and baby Taejin,

2)The past when he projected his avatar and affected it (a paradox)

3) In a different dimension, aka Nirvana with Xuanzang

All three of the scans above happened simultaneously, pieces of Mori are existing at multiple points in time & space while his true body remains in Nirvana. The way EoS Mori interacts with lower dimensional beings seems very similar lower dimensional being can only perceive pieces or "cross sections" of the higher dimensional beings.
Click to expand...
Very compelling indeed. I'm inclined to disagree with the OP.
 
I will reply to the arguments later but first, the HDE thread was made even before the first Jin Mori thread, so I really do not know where you guys are seeing this whole spite of a thing.
Also there is no argument in the OP because what is on Jin Mori's page is that he exists in a place where he can view all of creation and that is not HDE simple as that, that is the argument.
I will address @Xinsignia1 post later as that is just not the HDE standards and how it works.
 
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