Nasuverse Speed Check Part 1

[EldemadeDityjon]

Found too many problems with Nasuverse Characters Speed rating. I am gonna start with one by one. This is just first thread. I hope everyone behaves Civil.

Saber (Musashi Miyamoto)

Saber is a Saber-class Servant and an ally of Chaldea that drifts across parallel worlds. She appears during the Shimosa Subspecies Parallel World and the Eternally Frozen Empire - Anastasia. Her True Name is Musashi Miyamoto, with her formal name being Shinmen Musashi-no-Kami Fujiwara no...

vsbattles.fandom.com

• "Immeasurable" speed Musashi needs a buff to react to LS attacks
• Musashi thread that got accepted her for Immeasurable speed totally ignored to post these scans, which proves a mere average human and third rate mage, Fujimaru, was he himself in that so-called "Zero Realm", watching them both fight, following their moves and witnessing who the winner among the two was. The description is absolutely hyperbolic, it's metaphorical and flowery language and as Nasu himself stated, refers to the state of mind of the Buddhism Zero concept.

---

These are Additional Scans and Arguments no one countered so far any one who just arrived to this thread should please read it properly before giving your input.

• These are the entire fight between Musashi and Kojiro
  This is likely Proper Human History Musashi about to die. A male, repeating the same sentences (no time, no space, etc.) were said by the narrator in the so-called "World of Void", leading to believe they were merely hyperbolic.
  And these are scans were it said that not only Musashi, Kojiro and Yagyu have surpassed (hyperbolically) the Gods, but also Inshun, who has a H6C tier and was killed by Musashi without the latter using the Zero.
  If Musashi, Kojiro and Yagyu surpassed the Buddha and the Gods with their abilities, how Musashi defeated Inshun, who did exactly the same, without relying on such abilities?
  Simple, they're all hyperbolic statements pretty commons for the Samurai Age, where the most skilled warriors were compared to Gods and Demons alike.
  If there's something about Musashi in the later plot, idk.
• In the Inshun scans I sent, it's stated Inshun is able to "fell (= kill)" a god or even the Buddha himself. Since, as he says, both of them are accepted as immeasurable speed, Inshun who's able to kill them "via his ability with the lance" (clearly an hyperbole), he should be comparable in speed to them.
• Musashi kills a so-called "immeasurable speed" being, Inshun, without using her Zero that grants her the tier in speed. Aka Immeasurable speed Buddha ~ Immeasurable Speed Inshun =< Zero Musashi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Normal Musashi who killed Inshun.

Inconsistent, and thus still pointing to a whole hyperbolic argument about "skill with weapons that surpass the abilities of the gods". Taking it literally is like taking literally a statement such as "Tatsumi is so skilled in karate he could blitz a swooping hawk"

TD;LR

Musashi has no feats or Skills which gives her immeasurable speed hence her immeasurable speed skill should be removed. She barely can dodge even LS attacks with Buffs. The immeasurable attack speed via skill rating should go.

 

[Georredannea15]

We've talked about this before and yes, I agree

In particular, the fact that an ordinary person can watch the battle of characters , and that characters are "immeasurable speed" actually causes a contradiction of statement

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Against my better judgement and despite recent developments

Since I was asked, will be monitoring the thread. At a minimum sign of derailment, will be deleting posts. Y'all better behave.

Also, knowledgeable peeps: @ShadowWhoWalks @CrimsonStarFallen @Theoretical @Tdjwo @TheUnshakableOne (if there are others that should be contacted, let me know)

Experts on Immeasurable speed standards: @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa (and myself, but let's ignore me)

 

[deonment]

Also, knowledgeable peeps: @ShadowWhoWalks @CrimsonStarFallen @Theoretical @Tdjwo @TheUnshakableOne (if there are others that should be contacted, let me know)

@Paul_Frank as well

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Paul_Frank as well

Thank you

@Paul_Frank

 

[Deagonx]

Agreed. The scan is very flowery and figurative, and the other scan more concretely places a limitation on speed. It should be lowered.

 

[Hasty12345]

This looks fairly simple, agree.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Just want to mention real quick: Even if the argument seems indeed to be straightforward, I would still like to wait for a supporters counterarguments for the sake of having a proper debate.

So even if we reach enough staff agreement, if supporters haven't commented then, I want the thread to stay open. Thank you.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Just want to mention real quick: Even if the argument seems indeed to be straightforward, I would still like to wait for a supporters counterarguments for the sake of having a proper debate.

So even if we reach enough staff agreement, if supporters haven't commented then, I want the thread to stay open. Thank you.

Yeah no problem. I am not in any hurry.

 

[SweetDao]

I agree for now although my stance can change depending on the supporters' arguments.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Kinda neutral on this, I think the justification itself is very weak (especially if it lacks demonstrable feats or other instances of what's claimed), but I also don't think the counterarguments are very convincing. I'll wait for more evidence from supporters before making a decision.

A character being stated as slower than light, or having one instance of sub-light speeds, isn't really a debunk when the verse tends to have much higher speed feats even excluding immeasurable. It's a fairly common issue where a verse states one speed for a character that's just straight up wrong. Also, I don't see where it says that an average human keeps track of the battle; It just asks the player who they think should win, and that the one they chose to watch won the fight.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

A character being stated as slower than light, or having one instance of sub-light speeds, isn't really a debunk when the verse tends to have much higher speed feats even excluding immeasurable.

Check the scan in the profile. There are multiple statements are Contradicting. One scan states near light speed one states Lightspeed and other one states a skill allows them to move faster than light but it's not usable now. So it's not even clear that character fought this character using that skill

Additionally last one where it states Musashi intercept with lightspeed the scan is missing and orginal scan in my OP where it was stated she needed buff to Dodge lightspeed attack.

It's a fairly common issue where a verse states one speed for a character that's just straight up wrong. Also, I don't see where it says that an average human keeps track of the battle; It just asks the player who they think should win, and that the one they chose to watch won the fight.

This is the character which was observing the scene and no it's not like you are watching it as movie. It's character watching the fight.
Anyway if you pay attention to the scan the statement are clearly hyperbolic statement not real immeasurable speed. Even Nasu himself stated, refers to the state of mind of the Buddhism Zero concept. Let me see if I can get that statement. It's clearly not talking about actually speed.

Ritsuka Fujimaru

Ritsuka Fujimaru is the protagonist of Fate/Grand Order and the last remaining Master of Chaldea after Lev Lainur Flauros sabotaged the facilities. An ordinary high-school student looking for employment opportunities, their remarkable affinity for being a Master led them to be recruited by...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yeah I am open to Verse supporters arguments.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Check the scan in the profile. There are multiple statements are Contradicting. One scan states near light speed one states Lightspeed and other one states a skill allows them to move faster than light but it's not usable now. So it's not even clear that character fought this character using that skill

Additionally last one where it states Musashi intercept with lightspeed the scan is missing and orginal scan in my OP where it was stated she needed buff to Dodge lightspeed attack.

Why is it unusable? The statements seem quite clear, and while there is an obvious contradiction, I think 3 statements of light speed should take precedent over 1 statement of sub-light speed.

This is the character which was observing the scene and no it's not like you are watching it as movie. It's character watching the fight.
Anyway if you pay attention to the scan the statement are clearly hyperbolic statement not real immeasurable speed. Even Nasu himself stated, refers to the state of mind of the Buddhism Zero concept. Let me see if I can get that statement. It's clearly not talking about actually speed.

Ritsuka Fujimaru

Ritsuka Fujimaru is the protagonist of Fate/Grand Order and the last remaining Master of Chaldea after Lev Lainur Flauros sabotaged the facilities. An ordinary high-school student looking for employment opportunities, their remarkable affinity for being a Master led them to be recruited by...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yeah I am open to Verse supporters arguments.

...I wouldn't use this for anything. It says they're MHS at peak, but are physically scaled to someone ranging from rela+ to immeasurable depending on the key. This seems to be a case of outdated scaling rather than an outright contradiction.

 

[BreezeHM]

Ritsuka's perception speed is iffy. He assists in taking down Limbo. While my profiles for Heian-Kyo haven't gotten accepted yet I'll explain as easy as I can. Ibuki-douji appears and is stated to be as powerful as a Lostbelt King and comparable to Olympian gods. Limbo absorbs Ibuki-douji's magical energy and is now even stronger than hers.

Musashi's Zero is limited. She has to enter into her state of "zero" so she's not a walking Immeasurable attack speed character. She has shown to go into Zero when she fights against Ivan and is kicked out the world immediately after. Now before you say the causality of this world is what kicked her out, Musashi was resisting the world's restorative innate power throughout the entire Lostbelt. After leaving the state of "zero," Musashi is vulnerable and has no strength as seen in Shimousa, right after her duel with Sasaki she no longer has the strength to even move, despite the fact that she would've fought Sasaki for infinity if Fujimaru didn't choose a winner.

Musashi wasn't in Zero when she goes up against the Dioscuri. In Olympus, It's already been decided that It's Musashi's final destination, if she entered Zero against them she'll die like she did when she entered it against Chaos. Musashi in her duels against Dioscuri even said she could win against one of them if she didn't care about what happens to her after which she would be implying by entering into zero.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Why is it unusable? The statements seem quite clear, and while there is an obvious contradiction, I think 3 statements of light speed should take precedent over 1 statement of sub-light speed.

We go by lowest interpretation in wiki

Also not 3 LS statements where did you get that ?

• Near LS (for a different Character)
• Faster than LS with skill (for a different Character)
• LS (for a different Character)
• Musashi needed a Buff to intercept with practical Lightspeed attack.

I hope you know what is practical means.

...I wouldn't use this for anything. It says they're MHS at peak, but are physically scaled to someone ranging from rela+ to immeasurable depending on the key. This seems to be a case of outdated scaling rather than an outright contradiction.

Check the keys Gotea is not immeasurable speed in every key this argument is clearly wrong

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Ritsuka's perception speed is iffy. He assists in taking down Limbo. While my profiles for Heian-Kyo haven't gotten accepted yet I'll explain as easy as I can. Ibuki-douji appears and is stated to be as powerful as a Lostbelt King and comparable to Olympian gods. Limbo absorbs Ibuki-douji's magical energy and is now even stronger than hers.

Musashi's Zero is limited. She has to enter into her state of "zero" so she's not a walking Immeasurable attack speed character. She has shown to go into Zero when she fights against Ivan and is kicked out the world immediately after. Now before you say the causality of this world is what kicked her out, Musashi was resisting the world's restorative innate power throughout the entire Lostbelt. After leaving the state of "zero," Musashi is vulnerable and has no strength as seen in Shimousa, right after her duel with Sasaki she no longer has the strength to even move, despite the fact that she would've fought Sasaki for infinity if Fujimaru didn't choose a winner.

Musashi wasn't in Zero when she goes up against the Dioscuri. In Olympus, It's already been decided that It's Musashi's final destination, if she entered Zero against them she'll die like she did when she entered it against Chaos. Musashi in her duels against Dioscuri even said she could win against one of them if she didn't care about what happens to her after which she would be implying by entering into zero.

Thanks for scans and explanation. I will read this through tomorrow and Reply then.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ritsuka's perception speed is iffy. He assists in taking down Limbo. While my profiles for Heian-Kyo haven't gotten accepted yet I'll explain as easy as I can. Ibuki-douji appears and is stated to be as powerful as a Lostbelt King and comparable to Olympian gods. Limbo absorbs Ibuki-douji's magical energy and is now even stronger than hers.

Musashi's Zero is limited. She has to enter into her state of "zero" so she's not a walking Immeasurable attack speed character. She has shown to go into Zero when she fights against Ivan and is kicked out the world immediately after. Now before you say the causality of this world is what kicked her out, Musashi was resisting the world's restorative innate power throughout the entire Lostbelt. After leaving the state of "zero," Musashi is vulnerable and has no strength as seen in Shimousa, right after her duel with Sasaki she no longer has the strength to even move, despite the fact that she would've fought Sasaki for infinity if Fujimaru didn't choose a winner.

Musashi wasn't in Zero when she goes up against the Dioscuri. In Olympus, It's already been decided that It's Musashi's final destination, if she entered Zero against them she'll die like she did when she entered it against Chaos. Musashi in her duels against Dioscuri even said she could win against one of them if she didn't care about what happens to her after which she would be implying by entering into zero.

I guess if the immeasurable speed is via an activated ability and isn't 24/7, then I'm more okay with it staying.

We go by lowest interpretation in wiki

no we don't lol, we go by what's consistent.

 

[SweetDao]

I guess if the immeasurable speed is via an activated ability and isn't 24/7, then I'm more okay with it staying.

So then it should be deleted as a key and just put as "Relativistic+ with FTL reactions and combat speed, Immeasurable while in Zero State" I assume?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

no we don't lol, we go by what's consistent.

Also not 3 LS statements where did you get that ?

• Near LS (for a different Character)
• Faster than LS with skill (for a different Character)
• LS (for a different Character)
• Musashi needed a Buff to intercept with practical Lightspeed attack.

I hope you know what is practical means.

Yeah let's go with consistency then Musashi needing a buff to react to LS. Also Musashi herself is not LS or FTL. Other characters feats doesn't matter I am talking about this specific character feats.

I guess if the immeasurable speed is via an activated ability and isn't 24/7, then I'm more okay with it staying.

I am gonna watch the video he sent and reply regarding this. Looks like the skill shifts the character out of the world not like they are moving through time or above time by speed.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

So then it should be deleted as a key and just put as "Relativistic+ with FTL reactions and combat speed, Immeasurable while in Zero State" I assume?

I will watch the video @BreezeHM sent and gonna reply tomorrow. If Her skill really works like immeasurable speed then we can list it otherwise it should go.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So then it should be deleted as a key and just put as "Relativistic+ with FTL reactions and combat speed, Immeasurable while in Zero State" I assume?

That's how I would do it, but I'm not really the person to ask.

Yeah let's go with consistency then Musashi needing a buff to react to LS. Also Musashi herself is not LS or FTL. Other characters feats doesn't matter I am talking about this specific character feats.

...You mean the feats she scales to? The sub-LS thing happens once. There are 3 feats of comparable characters moving at, above, or near light speeds. Do not make me explain to you how 3 is more than 1.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

...You mean the feats she scales to? The sub-LS thing happens once. There are 3 feats of comparable characters moving at, above, or near light speeds. Do not make me explain to you how 3 is more than 1.

I think you should read again what I wrote
She needed buff to intercept LS attack. It doens't matter how many LS statements other characters has. We are specifically talking about Musashi feats.

SHE NEEDED BUFF JUST FOR LS. You get it?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I think you should read again what I wrote
She needed buff to intercept LS attack. It doens't matter how many LS statements other characters has. We are specifically talking about Musashi feats.

SHE NEEDED BUFF JUST FOR LS. You get it?

Yeah, which is inconsistent to the speeds she scales to lol

@BreezeHM, how frequently does Musashi fight people who have LS/FTL feats or statements?

 

[BreezeHM]

Yeah, which is inconsistent to the speeds she scales to lol

@BreezeHM, how frequently does Musashi fight people who have LS/FTL feats or statements?

I already made a thread about the Dioscuri LS stuff and it was shot down. There are way more statements and calcs about servants reacting to FTL speeds. You can just look at the thread for a better overview. But literally every Servant has FTL combat speed, if you count every one of Musashi's opponents you'd have a lot.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Yeah, which is inconsistent to the speeds she scales to lol

It's not inconsistent. Read again it's clearly consistent that she should move at near LS without buff and LS with buff. Dioscuri having different statements makes it solid that Dioscur which varies speed doesn't always has LS. Also FTL speed for Dioscuri comes from a skill which never stated Musashi intercepted it and it even stated it can't be used in normal condition. So Casual Musashi without buff having LS doesn't make sense.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's not inconsistent. Read again it's clearly consistent that she should move at near LS without buff and LS with buff. Dioscuri having different statements makes it solid that Dioscur which varies speed doesn't always has LS. Also FTL speed for Dioscuri comes from a skill which never stated Musashi intercepted it and it even stated it can't be used in normal condition. So Casual Musashi without buff having LS doesn't make sense.

Elde, do you understand what the word "inconsistent" means? Also like. nothing else in this post is true? Dioscuri doesn't have a varies rating for speed, and I don't see any indication that those speeds are via a special skill.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Elde, do you understand what the word "inconsistent" means? Also like. nothing else in this post is true? Dioscuri doesn't have a varies rating for speed, and I don't see any indication that those speeds are via a special skill.

If you actually checked the profile you should already know he is not FTL.

Relativistic+ with FTL reactions and combat speed Repeatedly stated to move like light and at or near-lightspeed, and even outright faster-than-light.

Check the last scan FTL speed is from a skill.

 

[Paul_Frank]

• "Immeasurable" speed Musashi needs a buff to react to LS attacks

If you read the profile (or the game) you'd know she's not immeasurable at that time. Zero is a state she has to tap into, with it kicking her out of the lostbelt each time, and eventually resulting in her erasure during LB5's ending portion, the LS stuff is thusly listed in her first key, which is her non Zero state
https://imgur.com/a/3UJpyRQ

• Musashi thread that got accepted her for Immeasurable speed totally ignored to post these scans, which proves a mere average human and third rate mage, Fujimaru, was he himself in that so-called "Zero Realm", watching them both fight, following their moves and witnessing who the winner among the two was. The description is absolutely hyperbolic, it's metaphorical and flowery language and as Nasu himself stated, refers to the state of mind of the Buddhism Zero concept

This is a really weird point. Firstly, Nasu didn't say it's hyperbolic and flowery, what he said is that Musashi's " " was not the Swirl of the Root but rather the Buddhist idea of Mu. That doesn't mean that the very blatant statements are now "flowery language" (a term which is horribly misused on the site, as something can be flowery and still an actual statement to use, we seem to construe flowery with non literal and hyperbole instantly)

Fujimaru being an average human or third rate Mage is also not really accurate. Fujimaru is very much not normal. Despite not being good at a Mage he has an entourage of servants that give him whatever boosts, has actual feats, etc. To say that Ritsuka being in said timeless space to observe their fight means it's not literal is a bit odd, especially when it's added on that the fight only ever ends because he can observe an outcome there, in other words, because of them being, as it says, beyond time, the fight would go on endlessly with them evenly matched, it's only through him that an outcome actually occurs.

Additionally, trying to say its flowery language and not true is a bit odd when we know a good bit of that exposition dump is objectively, verifiably true, for instance

Faced with untold options, it carefully evaluates, crushes, and discards each of them.
A finite skill that only arrives at a single correct answer.
A blade that shaves existence down to a single possibility, the ultimate extreme, remaining only as a “something.”
That is Musashi's zero; a sword designed to bring about an inescapable end, even against gods or the Buddha.

This is very much literal, it's not only said in Shimosa, it's reiterated in mats, and it's a variation on an ability that has existed since KnK, Calculation, which allows literally this exact thing, shaving down reality to an inescapable end

Additionally we know Sasaki's is also literal

The other, a sword that becomes one with endlessness.
A path that accepts countless possibilities.
Ordinarily, given the limits of time and space,
only a single slash can be made at any given moment.
His sword accepts that, and at the same time
creates many other answers: a sword of infinity.
A strike that pushes its existence to the ultimate transparency, only to still have something to hold on to.
That is Kojirou's Swallow Reversal; a sword designed to create a future that not even gods nor the Buddha could evade.

Like this is how it's been since FSN. Tsubame Gaeshi uses the 2nd magic in order to do multiple slashes using the infinite parallel worlds that exist.

If out of 16 lines, 11 of them are very easily verifiably true, I find it hard to believe the rest is just outright wrong. We see they're pulled into another space which we are told by a narrator, and not Ritsuka (this is important to note, nothing said here is Ritsuka, its an omniscient narrator) is not a parallel world, or a chronicle or pruned phenomenon or anything. The background even changes to show this. The narrator then says that Ritsuka was simply dragged with them there, but it's not like he even got to see the fight

No, instead what he actually does is desire to see Musashi as the winner, and as the only possible judge, Musashi is declared the victor

So who will you watch? Who is the swordsman you
will stand beside as they bask in their victory?
Who will it be...?
Who is it you hold in your gaze?

Musashi!

Then it is decided! As you watch over them, in this instant, the zero sword shall defeat the infinite sword!

It even notes that the only part he watches over is that instant. In other words, the rest of the infinite time they were said to be fighting, he either wasn't even dragged into the world for, or wasn't able to see even till the end.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I disagree, and find that the objections are missing a lot of context.

• "Immeasurable" speed Musashi needs a buff to react to LS attacks

First of all, Musashi needs to reach the state of Zero to get Immeasurable Speed.
Musashi needed a buff to block a surprise LS attack. Afterwards, they fight the same LS people while they are bloodlusted without a buff. In fact, this is what happens just after the scan you posted:

Spoiler: The Discouris declare that they will murder the gang while being bloodlusted

Humans must never defy gods. Humans must never commit sin. Humans. Foolish reeds who would prolong the great sin of Proper Human History. All of you must die.​ Dioscuri - Castor Haha. Hahahahahahahahaha! You're getting my hopes up, Father! Dioscuri - Pollux Hehe. Hehehehehehehehehe! You said it, Big Brother. Aphrodite Make it quick. Demeter Oh my... I was hoping to at least let them have some wine first. Europa Zeus has made his decision. Do not let them suffer. Make their deaths quick and painless, Dioscuri. Dioscuri - Pollux Did you hear that, Big Brother? We have permission now! Dioscuri - Pollux At last, you'll get to indulge in your favorite pastime: killing humans! Dioscuri - Pollux Since you're usually forbidden from doing so, this is your chance to really enjoy yourself! Dioscuri - Castor Oh yes, you bet I'm going to kill them! Watch this, Little Sister! I'm about to show you the full extent of my wrath! Dioscuri Die, humans! Mash ...Master! I managed to activate the Ortinax's emergency mode! Output is at sixty percent! Spirit Origin stabilized! Musashi Dammit! Dammit, dammit, dammit! These are the meanest gods I've ever met! They couldn't even wait until this damn headache wears off before attacking us! But if that's how it's gonna be, then that's fine with us! Right, Fujimaru!? Our opponents mean business, and they're more powerful than anything we've ever faced! What do you do!? Choices ...You need to ask? We fight! ...We fight back as hard as we can! Musashi You got it! One god destroyer, coming right up! When we're done, they won't know what hit them!

As stated, they managed to hold their ground and fend bloodlusted attacks without a buff, and Musashi thinks she can defeat one of the twins on her own.

What further refutes the objection, is that an exhausted Caenis with no buff managed to block a similar surprise attack later on.

Spoiler: Caenis blocking a similar surprise attack with no buff

Holmes We completely exhausted our magical energy in our fight against Aphrodite, so our priority now is to recuperate. From there, we can plan our next objective and— Man's Voice Do you really think there will be a “next” for you? Swordfighter & Warrior ! Caenis It's you! Goddamn twin bastards! Choices The Dioscuri! Mash​ The Dioscuri, the twin gods! Kirschtaria's Servant...!​ Are you okay, Holmes!? Holmes​ Oh yes. If not for Caenis's spear, my head would be tumbling across the floor right now.​ ...I must express my gratitude for that.​ ​ Fou​ Fo fou, fooou!​

• Musashi thread that got accepted her for Immeasurable speed totally ignored to post these scans, which proves a mere average human and third rate mage, Fujimaru, was he himself in that so-called "Zero Realm", watching them both fight, following their moves and witnessing who the winner among the two was. The description is absolutely hyperbolic, it's metaphorical and flowery language and as Nasu himself stated, refers to the state of mind of the Buddhism Zero concept.

The problem with your objection is that we know for a fact that Musashi's state of Zero, and Nameless Saber/Sasaki's Swallow Reversal are not metaphorical.

Musashi's state of Zero bypasses space-time. When she used it against Chaos, this was the description:

Spoiler: Sword of Zero vs Chaos

...It was a single flash of a sword. A blade that should never have been able to hit its target. A zero slash that reached its mark with perfect accuracy. How can I prove the existence of something that reaches beyond void—beyond nonexistence? How can I describe what she did to reach a being whose very essence lies in nonexistence? To strike at the chaotic void that lay past a gap in the universe—beyond time and space itself? I can't. It's impossible to put into words. All I can do...is tell you what happened afterward. ...Her blade did indeed rend the very sky, causing the god of void to disappear beyond space-time without so much as a gasp of surprise. It was, in the truest possible sense... ...a god-destroying strike.

Her profile also affirms her ability having domain over space-time (brackets are sentences added in the material book):

Spoiler: Musashi's ability explained

Heavenly Eye: A Heavenly Eye is said to be the power to achieve one's goals. It's an act of resolve to do something, then putting your entire body and soul into achieving it. One could say that it's an act of putting your entire self and existence into your gaze, and projecting it towards your goal. In Musashi's case, Heavenly Eye is used only to wield her blade on the spot. For example, if she decides to cut her opponent's right arm, she'll do whatever it takes to sever it. Her strike will be optimized, bending time and space toward achieving this goal. The power to narrow down all potential options for achieving a goal into a single eventuality. It could also be described as a very special type of Mystic Eye, which narrows an infinite number of possible futures down to only one. [These eyes are also the reason why Musashi tends to drift away between parallel worlds.] Emptiness: A The highest level a swordsman can attain. The ultimate mental state. Corresponds to Suigetsu of Yagyu Shinkageryu. To become nothingness makes her invincible. Only a swordsman who has reached the infinite mental state can achieve this. [Not even a slash that uses the Multi-Dimensional Refraction Phenomenon can reach someone voidless.]

It is also explicitly stated that she narrows the infinite number of possible futures down to only one. Which corresponds to what happens in the duel:

One, the zero sword, attempting to surpass Munisai's peerless “one”. The culmination of a life spent pursuing a single answer. Faced with untold options, it carefully evaluates, crushes, and discards each of them. A finite skill that only arrives at a single correct answer. A blade that shaves existence down to a single possibility, the ultimate extreme, remaining only as a “something.” That is Musashi's zero; a sword designed to bring about an inescapable end, even against gods or the Buddha.

Well, Nameless Saber uses Multi-Dimensional Refraction Phenomenon to create new possibilities, and this is not metaphorical; this results in simultaneous slashes being created. This is reflected in the duel as well:

The other, a sword that becomes one with endlessness. A path that accepts countless possibilities. Ordinarily, given the limits of time and space, only a single slash can be made at any given moment. His sword accepts that, and at the same time creates many other answers: a sword of infinity. A strike that pushes its existence to the ultimate transparency, only to still have something to hold on to. That is Kojirou's Swallow Reversal; a sword designed to create a future that not even gods nor the Buddha could evade.

What happens when one side narrows down infinite possibilities, while the other creates infinite possibilities ("in that moment, infinite possibilities play out."), while both surpasses time? That is immeasurable speed.

Rituska being made an observer/judge in a timeless realm that is beyond the normal rules doesn't reflect on his normal capabilities. And without him, the duel would be endless in realm of infinite/nothingness.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Thanks for scans and full explanation. Kinda busy IRL. So I need to time to read and reply back. I will do that in my free time. So don't conclude the thread before I reply back.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I disagree, and find that the objections are missing a lot of context.


First of all, Musashi needs to reach the state of Zero to get Immeasurable Speed.
Musashi needed a buff to block a surprise LS attack. Afterwards, they fight the same LS people while they are bloodlusted without a buff. In fact, this is what happens just after the scan you posted:

Spoiler: The Discouris declare that they will murder the gang while being bloodlusted

Humans must never defy gods. Humans must never commit sin. Humans. Foolish reeds who would prolong the great sin of Proper Human History. All of you must die.​ Dioscuri - Castor Haha. Hahahahahahahahaha! You're getting my hopes up, Father! Dioscuri - Pollux Hehe. Hehehehehehehehehe! You said it, Big Brother. Aphrodite Make it quick. Demeter Oh my... I was hoping to at least let them have some wine first. Europa Zeus has made his decision. Do not let them suffer. Make their deaths quick and painless, Dioscuri. Dioscuri - Pollux Did you hear that, Big Brother? We have permission now! Dioscuri - Pollux At last, you'll get to indulge in your favorite pastime: killing humans! Dioscuri - Pollux Since you're usually forbidden from doing so, this is your chance to really enjoy yourself! Dioscuri - Castor Oh yes, you bet I'm going to kill them! Watch this, Little Sister! I'm about to show you the full extent of my wrath! Dioscuri Die, humans! Mash ...Master! I managed to activate the Ortinax's emergency mode! Output is at sixty percent! Spirit Origin stabilized! Musashi Dammit! Dammit, dammit, dammit! These are the meanest gods I've ever met! They couldn't even wait until this damn headache wears off before attacking us! But if that's how it's gonna be, then that's fine with us! Right, Fujimaru!? Our opponents mean business, and they're more powerful than anything we've ever faced! What do you do!? Choices ...You need to ask? We fight! ...We fight back as hard as we can! Musashi You got it! One god destroyer, coming right up! When we're done, they won't know what hit them!

As stated, they managed to hold their ground and fend bloodlusted attacks without a buff, and Musashi thinks she can defeat one of the twins on her own.

What further refutes the objection, is that an exhausted Caenis with no buff managed to block a similar surprise attack later on.

Spoiler: Caenis blocking a similar surprise attack with no buff

Holmes We completely exhausted our magical energy in our fight against Aphrodite, so our priority now is to recuperate. From there, we can plan our next objective and— Man's Voice Do you really think there will be a “next” for you? Swordfighter & Warrior ! Caenis It's you! Goddamn twin bastards! Choices The Dioscuri! Mash​ The Dioscuri, the twin gods! Kirschtaria's Servant...!​ Are you okay, Holmes!? Holmes​ Oh yes. If not for Caenis's spear, my head would be tumbling across the floor right now.​ ...I must express my gratitude for that.​ ​ Fou​ Fo fou, fooou!​

I will address this later after checking it properly. Don't have time for looking for full context.

The problem with your objection is that we know for a fact that Musashi's state of Zero, and Nameless Saber/Sasaki's Swallow Reversal are not metaphorical.

Musashi's state of Zero bypasses space-time. When she used it against Chaos, this was the description:

Spoiler: Sword of Zero vs Chaos

...It was a single flash of a sword. A blade that should never have been able to hit its target. A zero slash that reached its mark with perfect accuracy. How can I prove the existence of something that reaches beyond void—beyond nonexistence? How can I describe what she did to reach a being whose very essence lies in nonexistence? To strike at the chaotic void that lay past a gap in the universe—beyond time and space itself? I can't. It's impossible to put into words. All I can do...is tell you what happened afterward. ...Her blade did indeed rend the very sky, causing the god of void to disappear beyond space-time without so much as a gasp of surprise. It was, in the truest possible sense... ...a god-destroying strike.

Her profile also affirms her ability having domain over space-time (brackets are sentences added in the material book):

Sorry to tell you this beyond space-time is not immeasurable speed it can also mean interdimensional range. Context here more of seems like interdimensional range.

Spoiler: Musashi's ability explained

Heavenly Eye: A Heavenly Eye is said to be the power to achieve one's goals. It's an act of resolve to do something, then putting your entire body and soul into achieving it. One could say that it's an act of putting your entire self and existence into your gaze, and projecting it towards your goal. In Musashi's case, Heavenly Eye is used only to wield her blade on the spot. For example, if she decides to cut her opponent's right arm, she'll do whatever it takes to sever it. Her strike will be optimized, bending time and space toward achieving this goal. The power to narrow down all potential options for achieving a goal into a single eventuality. It could also be described as a very special type of Mystic Eye, which narrows an infinite number of possible futures down to only one. [These eyes are also the reason why Musashi tends to drift away between parallel worlds.] Emptiness: A The highest level a swordsman can attain. The ultimate mental state. Corresponds to Suigetsu of Yagyu Shinkageryu. To become nothingness makes her invincible. Only a swordsman who has reached the infinite mental state can achieve this. [Not even a slash that uses the Multi-Dimensional Refraction Phenomenon can reach someone voidless.]

It is also explicitly stated that she narrows the infinite number of possible futures down to only one. Which corresponds to what happens in the duel:

Analytic Prediction can do the same thing and what's so Difference here ?

Also multi dimensional refraction is technically Interdimensional range if I am not mistaken

One, the zero sword, attempting to surpass Munisai's peerless “one”. The culmination of a life spent pursuing a single answer. Faced with untold options, it carefully evaluates, crushes, and discards each of them. A finite skill that only arrives at a single correct answer. A blade that shaves existence down to a single possibility, the ultimate extreme, remaining only as a “something.” That is Musashi's zero; a sword designed to bring about an inescapable end, even against gods or the Buddha.

Well, Nameless Saber uses Multi-Dimensional Refraction Phenomenon to create new possibilities, and this is not metaphorical; this results in simultaneous slashes being created. This is reflected in the duel as well:

Same as above. Can you explain how Multi dimensional refraction is Immeasurable speed not Multi dimensional attack.

Also how creating new possibilities is immeasurable speed?

The other, a sword that becomes one with endlessness. A path that accepts countless possibilities. Ordinarily, given the limits of time and space, only a single slash can be made at any given moment. His sword accepts that, and at the same time creates many other answers: a sword of infinity. A strike that pushes its existence to the ultimate transparency, only to still have something to hold on to. That is Kojirou's Swallow Reversal; a sword designed to create a future that not even gods nor the Buddha could evade.

What happens when one side narrows down infinite possibilities, while the other creates infinite possibilities ("in that moment, infinite possibilities play out."), while both surpasses time? That is immeasurable speed.

It's not talking about surpassing time instead of possibilities.

Also you see this clearly talking about skills where a new Possibilities is created and Zero sword being able to counter it by skill. I don't understand anything here scaling to immeasurable speed. Mind Explaining how any of this is immeasurable attack or reaction speed.

Rituska being made an observer/judge in a timeless realm that is beyond the normal rules doesn't reflect on his normal capabilities. And without him, the duel would be endless in realm of infinite/nothingness.

Moving beyond linear time is immeasurable speed. Fighting in a Nothingness realm isn't. Even if it's disconnected from the real world.

Character need to physically move or something like attack should reach future or past. What I am getting from your scans is One character has skills to create a new future possibilities and other characters having a skill to counter that. Unless I am missing something feel free to explain.

Also I need to mention this Bleach has similar statement and it has been rejected by Wiki. I am failing to understand how Manipulating/ creating/ affecting future Possibilities= Immeasurable speed. So if you don't mind feel to explain that so that I can understand it. As far as I know we don't consider countering Possibilities as immeasurable speed.

---

If you read the profile (or the game) you'd know she's not immeasurable at that time. Zero is a state she has to tap into, with it kicking her out of the lostbelt each time, and eventually resulting in her erasure during LB5's ending portion, the LS stuff is thusly listed in her first key, which is her non Zero state


This is a really weird point. Firstly, Nasu didn't say it's hyperbolic and flowery, what he said is that Musashi's " " was not the Swirl of the Root but rather the Buddhist idea of Mu. That doesn't mean that the very blatant statements are now "flowery language" (a term which is horribly misused on the site, as something can be flowery and still an actual statement to use, we seem to construe flowery with non literal and hyperbole instantly)

Fujimaru being an average human or third rate Mage is also not really accurate. Fujimaru is very much not normal. Despite not being good at a Mage he has an entourage of servants that give him whatever boosts, has actual feats, etc. To say that Ritsuka being in said timeless space to observe their fight means it's not literal is a bit odd, especially when it's added on that the fight only ever ends because he can observe an outcome there, in other words, because of them being, as it says, beyond time, the fight would go on endlessly with them evenly matched, it's only through him that an outcome actually occurs.

Additionally, trying to say its flowery language and not true is a bit odd when we know a good bit of that exposition dump is objectively, verifiably true, for instance


This is very much literal, it's not only said in Shimosa, it's reiterated in mats, and it's a variation on an ability that has existed since KnK, Calculation, which allows literally this exact thing, shaving down reality to an inescapable end

Additionally we know Sasaki's is also literal


Like this is how it's been since FSN. Tsubame Gaeshi uses the 2nd magic in order to do multiple slashes using the infinite parallel worlds that exist.

If out of 16 lines, 11 of them are very easily verifiably true, I find it hard to believe the rest is just outright wrong. We see they're pulled into another space which we are told by a narrator, and not Ritsuka (this is important to note, nothing said here is Ritsuka, its an omniscient narrator) is not a parallel world, or a chronicle or pruned phenomenon or anything. The background even changes to show this. The narrator then says that Ritsuka was simply dragged with them there, but it's not like he even got to see the fight

No, instead what he actually does is desire to see Musashi as the winner, and as the only possible judge, Musashi is declared the victor



It even notes that the only part he watches over is that instant. In other words, the rest of the infinite time they were said to be fighting, he either wasn't even dragged into the world for, or wasn't able to see even till the end.

These are the entire fight between Musashi and Kojiro

This is likely Proper Human History Musashi about to die. A male, repeating the same sentences (no time, no space, etc.) were said by the narrator in the so-called "World of Void", leading to believe they were merely hyperbolic.

And these are scans were it said that not only Musashi, Kojiro and Yagyu have surpassed (hyperbolically) the Gods, but also Inshun, who has a H6C tier and was killed by Musashi without the latter using the Zero.

If Musashi, Kojiro and Yagyu surpassed the Buddha and the Gods with their abilities, how Musashi defeated Inshun, who did exactly the same, without relying on such abilities?
Simple, they're all hyperbolic statements pretty commons for the Samurai Age, where the most skilled warriors were compared to Gods and Demons alike.

If there's something about Musashi in the later plot, idk.

Ritsuka's perception speed is iffy. He assists in taking down Limbo. While my profiles for Heian-Kyo haven't gotten accepted yet I'll explain as easy as I can. Ibuki-douji appears and is stated to be as powerful as a Lostbelt King and comparable to Olympian gods. Limbo absorbs Ibuki-douji's magical energy and is now even stronger than hers.

Musashi's Zero is limited. She has to enter into her state of "zero" so she's not a walking Immeasurable attack speed character. She has shown to go into Zero when she fights against Ivan and is kicked out the world immediately after. Now before you say the causality of this world is what kicked her out, Musashi was resisting the world's restorative innate power throughout the entire Lostbelt. After leaving the state of "zero," Musashi is vulnerable and has no strength as seen in Shimousa, right after her duel with Sasaki she no longer has the strength to even move, despite the fact that she would've fought Sasaki for infinity if Fujimaru didn't choose a winner.

Isn't this Contradicting? If she doesn't have strength even move how she is gonna Fight for infinity?

Musashi wasn't in Zero when she goes up against the Dioscuri. In Olympus, It's already been decided that It's Musashi's final destination, if she entered Zero against them she'll die like she did when she entered it against Chaos. Musashi in her duels against Dioscuri even said she could win against one of them if she didn't care about what happens to her after which she would be implying by entering into zero.

Yeah I get it she needs to enter Skill Zero now. So I will drop that lightspeed arguments

But as I already explained above how creating future Possibilities = Immeasurable speed?

 

[Excaliburhuman]

And these are scans were it said that not only Musashi, Kojiro and Yagyu have surpassed (hyperbolically) the Gods, but also Inshun, who has a H6C tier and was killed by Musashi without the latter using the Zero.

IDK about the hyperbole stuff so I'll let someone else argue, but it literally said Ishun was at the level of gods and the Buddah, but its not enough since Yagyu ascended that realm and surpassed gods and the Buddah. Ishun didn't surpass that level.

 

[BreezeHM]

I'll let others talk about their own arguments and focus on mine.

Isn't this Contradicting? If she doesn't have strength even move how she is gonna Fight for infinity?

In Zero she can fight for infinity, when she exits Zero she loses her stamina as she uses up all her strength.

Yeah I get it she needs to enter Skill Zero now. So I will drop that lightspeed arguments

But as I already explained above how creating future Possibilities = Immeasurable speed?

Musashi's rating for Immeasurable speed doesn't even come her future possibilities, it comes from her skill transcending time and space and that the gods and buddha would not be able to escape from it. The gods and Buddha are already accepted as immeasurable.

I did see some stuff above about how Yagu and Inshun so called surpassed the Buddha and gods but they don't mean it literally. In Inshun's case, they're saying his skill has reached the highest level possible, portraying the gods and Buddha as the highest level obtainable in a figurative way. Like skills that you believe only a god would have. Best example I can think of is Gaara's statement about Madara's meteors. For Inshun, This statement actually comes from his legend when he was alive. About Yagu, it's just because he serves "Satan" that he's saying that. Yagu doesn't reach a state comparable to the gods and Buddha until he's a servant and masters Suigetsu.

Now, Musashi has actual feats of attacking Immeasurable speed characters, so the statements are not hyperbolic.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'll let others talk about their own arguments and focus on mine.

In Zero she can fight for infinity, when she exits Zero she loses her stamina as she uses up all her strength.

Here is the there is no single scan states she or her skill attacks the opponent in the future or past.

Musashi's rating for Immeasurable speed doesn't even come her future possibilities, it comes from her skill transcending time and space and that the gods and buddha would not be able to escape from it.

Skill Transcending space-time can mean many things. I don't see a single scan it taking about speed. If there is something like that Please show it.

Also the problem here is if we read it properly it's talking about Skills of how she can clearly her mind into nothingness and counter the Possibilities with skill alone.

The gods and Buddha are already accepted as immeasurable.

Buddha Speed is comes from Kiara

Immeasurable (Is a higher dimensional lifeform that transcends space and time, viewing the lower dimensional worlds as books and scrolls where every point of every "time" is the exact same)

And this is not immeasurable speed. I was about to tackle in different thread. If you guys Claim Musashi Sword is Comparable to Buddha hence immeasurable speed. I can create a new thread for that and settle that there. Really Being higher dimensional existence doesn't give you immeasurable speed.

I did see some stuff above about how Yagu and Inshun so called surpassed the Buddha and gods but they don't mean it literally. In Inshun's case, they're saying his skill has reached the highest level possible, portraying the gods and Buddha as the highest level obtainable in a figurative way. Like skills that you believe only a god would have. Best example I can think of is Gaara's statement about Madara's meteors. For Inshun, This statement actually comes from his legend when he was alive. About Yagu, it's just because he serves "Satan" that he's saying that. Yagu doesn't reach a state comparable to the gods and Buddha until he's a servant and masters Suigetsu.

The thing is there are statements which doesn't make Sense about characters Transcending.

Now, Musashi has actual feats of attacking Immeasurable speed characters, so the statements are not hyperbolic.

Her speed feat about Transcending is taken out of context.

It's talking about skill where he can counter the future possibilities with it. From what I understand it works like a some law manipulation instead of speed. If it was Atleast there should have been a single scans stating that.

Additionally I checked the Video you linked in your first Reply. It states she is moved out of the world. It didn't talked about any speed.

 

[BreezeHM]

Here is the there is no single scan states she or her skill attacks the opponent in the future or past.

You don't need to actually be throwing attacks at people in the future or past for immeasurable you know

Skill Transcending space-time can mean many things. I don't see a single scan it taking about speed. If there is something like that Please show it.

Also the problem here is if we read it properly it's talking about Skills of how she can clearly her mind into nothingness and counter the Possibilities with skill alone.

I don't know what else it could mean, do you think in a sword fight, Nasu is going to throw in that their skills transcend time and space is referring to they can cut time and space? Just look at the context.

Buddha Speed is comes from Kiara

And this is not immeasurable speed. I was about to tackle in different thread. If you guys Claim Musashi Sword is Comparable to Buddha hence immeasurable speed. I can create a new thread for that and settle that there. Really Being higher dimensional existence doesn't give you immeasurable speed.

No one is saying that being a higher dimensional being gives you immeasurable speed. Kiara's rating comes from transcending time and space, viewing the lower dimensional worlds as books where every point of every "time" is the exact same. Time across the entire axis literally is all the same to her, but she's transcended it. There's even more to Immeasurable speed when you have deities who's divinity is so strong, they exist outside the axis of time. And have gods that can shoot sunlight from a whole other Universe, where the distance is infinite and having characters perform a series of actions before it even lands.

The thing is there are statements which doesn't make Sense about characters Transcending.

Her speed feat about Transcending is taken out of context.

It's talking about skill where he can counter the future possibilities with it. From what I understand it works like a some law manipulation instead of speed. If it was Atleast there should have been a single scans stating that.

It's not taken out of context if there's literal feats to back it up. The requirement of "sheer speed" is not always necessary for immeasurable. You'll have to start by downgrading Immeasurable Speed for the verse, but here's the immeasurable thread right here for Musashi and Kojiro if you want to see.

Additionally I checked the Video you linked in your first Reply. It states she is moved out of the world. It didn't talked about any speed.

I linked the video to show her entering zero not moving out the world.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You don't need to actually be throwing attacks at people in the future or past for immeasurable you know

They need to move Beyond Linear time and If they have feats for Traveling back and forth it will just back up the statement even further. Musashi feats can be performed by infinite speed characters too you don't need immeasurable speed characters but that's if we conclude statement is literal not Hyperbole.

The difference between infinite and immeasurable is that the former can go everywhere in zero time, whereas the latter can go everywhere and everywhen faster than in zero time.

For more information, Infinite speed characters are so fast, they move faster than time can flow at any period. They perceive every finite speed character as completely frozen and it takes 0 time to react to any finite speed object or travel finite speed distance. They can also perform and infinite number of actions or travel infinite distance within a finite amount of time. An infinite speed character's perception of time only flows when they allow it to flow.

Just so you know I am not saying it's necessary but here she has very less context so it's better to have feats like that to back it up.

Just having more statements would be better.

I don't know what else it could mean, do you think in a sword fight, Nasu is going to throw in that their skills transcend time and space is referring to they can cut time and space? Just look at the context.

It's more like lack of statement and feats

• No statement for Character moving above linear time by speed and skill lacks more explanation instead it gives flowery and hyperbolic vibe
• Arguments presented talks more about countering Possibilities which is not really helpful Arguments
• Also other hyperbolic statement and Character getting stomped even without Zero skill.
• Additionally the main interpretation you will be getting is Musashi mind reached the point of Nothingness where her skill can predict and counter the Possibilities which was created by infinite sword. Zero sword just drawn to that infinite sword by pure skill.

No one is saying that being a higher dimensional being gives you immeasurable speed. Kiara's rating comes from transcending time and space, viewing the lower dimensional worlds as books where every point of every "time" is the exact same. Time across the entire axis literally is all the same to her, but she's transcended it. There's even more to Immeasurable speed when you have deities who's divinity is so strong, they exist outside the axis of time. And have gods that can shoot sunlight from a whole other Universe, where the distance is infinite and having characters perform a series of actions before it even lands.

There is a thing called omnipresence for seeing all point of time as same it's not immeasurable speed. No scans of statement in Buddha or Kiara profile talks about speed instead they are Transcendent and views the Lower dimensions as all of time as same it's not immeasurable speed.

Additionally if you checked the speed page of course you need feats for speed not seeing things.

It's not taken out of context if there's literal feats to back it up. The requirement of "sheer speed" is not always necessary for immeasurable. You'll have to start by downgrading Immeasurable Speed for the verse, but here's the immeasurable thread right here for Musashi and Kojiro if you want to see.

Mind Checking @LordGinSama reply. It's pretty much previously staffs ignored him.
This

Fate Hax is already treated as instantaneous, for example if you can attack the future then the present will be altered automatically as a consequence. That's like me giving Yhwach infinite attack speed via the Almighty.

Also typically speaking a single statement of infinite moves being made instantly aren't usually accepted as infinite or immeasurable speeds as this could be a result of hax, hence why Vash the Stampede is 5-B with 4-D hax as opposed to being outright 2-A.

Especially since Musashi directly utilizes Fate manipulation in combat. It's a result of her Fate hax as opposed to her raw speed imo.

---

In Short

• Creating Future Possibilities ≠ Immeasurable speed and countering those Possibilities with skill ≠ immeasurable speed. It's More like fate manipulation.
• There is big problem that Buddha Speed which Come from Kiara Profile has that HDE and seeing all of the time as same which is more like an Omnipresence not speed itself. So that argument also doesn't work.
• Musashi statement works more like her skills takes her to a void of Nothingness states where her mind can counter any type of infinite Possibilities attacks from Kojiro. Of course it looks like fate hax more than Speed.
• Also the fact Musashi defeating Characters without Zero sword even though if they were compared to Buddha Proves most of the statement are hyperbolic.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Musashi's rating for Immeasurable speed doesn't even come her future possibilities, it comes from her skill transcending time and space and that the gods and buddha would not be able to escape from it. The gods and Buddha are already accepted as immeasurable.

I did see some stuff above about how Yagu and Inshun so called surpassed the Buddha and gods but they don't mean it literally. In Inshun's case, they're saying his skill has reached the highest level possible, portraying the gods and Buddha as the highest level obtainable in a figurative way. Like skills that you believe only a god would have. Best example I can think of is Gaara's statement about Madara's meteors. For Inshun, This statement actually comes from his legend when he was alive. About Yagu, it's just because he serves "Satan" that he's saying that. Yagu doesn't reach a state comparable to the gods and Buddha until he's a servant and masters Suigetsu.

Now, Musashi has actual feats of attacking Immeasurable speed characters, so the statements are not hyperbolic.

IDK about the hyperbole stuff so I'll let someone else argue, but it literally said Ishun was at the level of gods and the Buddah, but its not enough since Yagyu ascended that realm and surpassed gods and the Buddah. Ishun didn't surpass that level.

In the Inshun scans I sent you, it's stated Inshun is able to "fell (= kill)" a god or even the Buddha himself. Since, as he says, both of them are accepted as immeasurable speed, Inshun who's able to kill them "via his ability with the lance" (clearly an hyperbole), he should be comparable in speed to them.
Musashi kills a so-called "immeasurable speed" being, Inshun, without using her Zero that grants her the tier in speed. Aka Immeasurable speed Buddha ~ Immeasurable Speed Inshun =< Zero Musashi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Normal Musashi who killed Inshun.

Inconsistent, and thus still pointing to a whole hyperbolic argument about "skill with weapons that surpass the abilities of the gods". Taking it literally is like taking literally a statement such as "Tatsumi is so skilled in karate he could blitz a swooping hawk"

 

[Harith0cell]

Op makes sense, agree with ctr.

 

[John985]

Immeasurable is base on BB not Kiara.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Immeasurable is base on BB not Kiara.

Honestly reasons given in there are not sufficient for immeasurable speed. Anyway that is not the main concern for this thread.

We are talking about Musashi statements being hyperbolic.