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Deagonx

Deagonx

VS Battles Thread Moderator
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  • HammerStrikes219
    HammerStrikes219
    HammerStrikes219
    vsbattles.fandom.com

    Keyaru

    Keyaru is a 14-year-old teenager that obtained the Hero Class: Healer. After being summoned to serve the kingdom, he was betrayed and enslaved by the other heroes, suffering from all kinds of abuse and exploitation for 4 years. However, he later forms a scheme to take his revenge after realizing...
    vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

    Why are we using this character as a example?

    Is the series focued on hentai or not?
    SSJGeminiJJ

    Hi. I thought the thread above was already able to be concluded but apparently I might need one more staff agreement as the dealbreaker. I recall you reading about this topic on another thread that brought it up and expressing disagreement with the notion of higher dimensional 8th sense (Saint Seiya). If it's not a bother, would you be able to take a quick look at this thread (which goes more in depth to its invalidity) and give your input? Thanks.
    LuffyRuffy46307
    well, this one crt it's been idle for a while and needs an evaluation, could you help us finish it? Thank you very much for your attention.
    Agnaa
    Responding here since it's not super relevant to the RVR.
    Deagonx said:
    That would be enough to decide any other matter on the site.
    Click to expand...
    God I'd hope that no CRTs or standard revisions get passed wholesale when split 9-6. To me, that's something that needs a compromise.

    Plus, that's only just outside of the window that versus threads would get applied for.
    View previous comments…
    Agnaa
    Agnaa
    If we want to go down to exact ratios, the average of those ban lengths would be 14.6 months.

    I think a 60-40 vote split is too narrow for a difference in implementation so extreme to be implemented entirely.

    But if that's just our subjective views, then meh.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Yeah I think it's just a difference in philosophy. In my view 9 to 6 is relatively decisive.
    ImmortalDread
    ImmortalDread
    9:6 is sufficient, in matter of fact, we don't require super-majority (a higher percentage of votes, such as two-thirds or three-quarters) in RvR
    Huesito88
    Hey Deagonx if you aren't busy tomorrow or still awake later to night can we have have a talk, I'd like to just double check something. I also don't care if you respond immediately or take hours in between messages.

    Here's my discord "Huesito88#9358"
    BestMGQScalerEver
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    What is the question?
    BestMGQScalerEver
    BestMGQScalerEver
    Basically 2 but I'll post here. Not directed towards you specifically just for whoever can answer.

    1. If something is said to be "If you refer to this as "X" then it will never be "X"" or similar would this result in an "infinite regress". This is pretty generic negative theology and without something similar to this core idea you can barely even call it such. Or is negative theology here just classified as being "unexplainable" or "indescribable".
    2. Are there any verses you can mention or have any example which would lead to an infinite regress. (Good question to get what exactly can lead to an infinite regress clarified)
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    1. That'd be x + 1, unless it's specifically spelled out that this applies to levels of reality above one's own, per DGs middle ground position.

    2. Not sure. I only know of a couple verses which use NT
    Hasty12345
    I’m sorry but I can’t help myself and I don’t want to get in trouble on the staff thread… but didn’t you know the difference between 500 and 100,000 Is uncountably infinite 🗿🗿
    Samael_010
    vote pls
    vsbattles.com

    The Maanim revision (The Unwritten)

    https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Samael_010/The_Maanim old maanim https://www.cbr.com/carey-gross-ready-the-end-of-the-unwritten-apocalypse/ The solicitation for "The Unwritten: Apocalypse" #8 teases Tom's hunt for a maanim. Is that the Holy Grail? Carey: The Grail and the maanim are...
    vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
    DaReaperMan
    BTW I would advocate for Clout to be allowed to comment in that TR thread, since he seems both trustworthy and knowledgeable
    KLOL506
    Wait, I needed to ask one last thing.

    Do I keep the same AP justification for Athena but just swap it with "Unknown, at least 2-C"? Since it was agreed that it was a higher power but not infinitely so?
    Agnaa
    Pinging @Theglassman12 due to also being relevant to this
    Deagonx said:
    The distinction here doesn't change the point of my analogy. If it would be rude to use against the person, don't use it against the argument. There are other ways of getting your point across.
    Click to expand...
    I completely disagree with this, think it's a terrible route to go down, and know that it goes completely against our precedent for what we punish for. Which is particularly relevant since LordGinSama's a fairly long-time user.

    On why it's bad, well, I think my response here is a fair enough example. Should I not be allowed to call your suggestion "terrible", since that'd be a rude thing to say against a person? Oftentimes arguments genuinely need to be described in ways that, even at their nicest, would be considered insults if applied to people, such as "illogical" and "unreasonable". While these can upset people, I think that's the price we have to pay to be able to talk about some things.

    You can fairly easily argue that "shit" or "braindead" are worse, but to draw a line you'd have to draw one right in the middle; where some people will be offended by unpunished speech, and some people will casually toss out punishable speech without a second thought, which I think is generally a bad situation to be in.
    • Like
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    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Venting out frustrations? Not needing to ditch a thread the second you get a bit heated at the risk of a ban? Emphasis? Variety in language?
    Click to expand...
    I really don't think any of that justifies insulting other people in a debate, even indirectly.

    I think so.
    Click to expand...
    Well, then I strongly strongly sympathize with the people being bullied and victimized by such users being given free reign to act like that.

    You're moving the notch over somewhat, and I don't think that's a worthwhile tradeoff.
    Click to expand...

    There isn't much more to say here than that I completely disagree. I am far far more concerned with protecting someone's right to be treated with dignity and respect than I am in protecting someone's right to be a bully, to insult or degrade people who disagree with them. To me, the former is far far more crucial than the latter, and I think if the staff as a whole endorsed the fact that you simply have to put up with being insulted in order to argue a CRT, it would greatly degrade the quality of the site. It is not hard to be polite, it is not hard to avoid insults. It's not hard to avoid starting rebuttals with "are you ******* serious" or "what the **** is this argument?" or "This is a brain dead take, ngl." We should absolutely warn and punish users who regularly do that, and protect the people they are bullying from having to endure it on a constant basis just to accommodate these ill-tempered users.

    I get that you see it differently, but I am absolutely unmovable on this. Civility shouldn't be optional.
    Theglassman12
    Theglassman12
    You wanna explain how I’m relevant to this conversation when I told Gin to tone down the behavior?
    Agnaa
    Agnaa
    I get that you see it differently, but I am absolutely unmovable on this. Civility shouldn't be optional.

    Welp, fair enough then.

    You wanna explain how I’m relevant to this conversation when I told Gin to tone down the behavior?

    Since you gave out warnings that I think shouldn't have been given, based on how I think we've tended to treat this sort of behaviour in the past.
    DaMonkeMan
    How long's the threadban though?
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    It's permanent. We discussed it at length and decided there was little utility in attempting to measure it, as the only difference between being thread banned and not is that you'll have to ask a staff member when you're involved a report, but (realistically) no one is involved in reports so routinely that this would become a significant chore, as very very very few users end up in RVR in any way and even fewer interject out of turn.

    In a perfect world we would just have all comments in RVR go through the mod approval queue before landing in order to prevent the stir of drama from getting out of hand, but I don't know that it's possible in our forum system.
    DaMonkeMan
    DaMonkeMan
    In a perfect world we would just have all comments in RVR go through the mod approval queue before landing in order to prevent the stir of drama from getting out of hand, but I don't know that it's possible in our forum system.
    Click to expand...
    I'm pretty sure some forums do that.
    Like Fanverse, for example.
    So it's certainly possible.
    Anyway thank you for the answer.
    I'll get off your profile now.
    Serlock_Holmes
    These statements in the gow thread sure seem like the ichigo statement by aizen and I'm pretty sure ichigo isn't infinitely beyond him.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Which statement?
    Serlock_Holmes
    Serlock_Holmes
    That aizen couldn't even feel ichigo's power and . And also that his power far surpasses anything else. Those statements are pretty much the same and yet are treated quite differently. Also the jin mo ri situation. Just sending you thato to point these things out as it seems iffy for a similar situation to be treated differently.
    Georredannea15
    Instead of deleting my comments, you can kindly say "please don't bother me".

    And yes, as I said, these are the producer's interviews, not our reviews.
    View previous comments…
    Georredannea15
    Georredannea15
    Well, you have provided no evidence for what you said and you are proceeding with the policy of "I am the staff, I am always right".

    Anyway, I won't tire you any further. It would be disrespectful to you.
    Georredannea15
    Georredannea15
    Yes. A vague notion of a "higher existence" doesn't guarantee QS in our standards.
    Click to expand...
    You still think that's the only statement... Anyway, I won't say any more.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Stop commenting on my wall.
    SweetDao
    View previous comments…
    HammerStrikes219
    HammerStrikes219
    Also using what Executor say isn’t a support for High 1B nor against it since again, Japanese is a context dependent language which is true, but the same applies to other language as this isn’t exactly exclusive to Japanese.

    However, I should note that from my point of view, just because a language is heavily context dependent doesn’t make it a free pass from not being scrutinized, rather it should analyzed carefully
    SweetDao
    SweetDao
    Hello once again Deagonx, may I know if I'm allowed to answer Shadow post? I would like to do so out of courtesy since he took time to answer me, but if you feel it's better to wait for further staff input instead of back and forth, I understand.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    You can
    SweetDao
    Hello once again Deagonx. May I be allowed to make another comment in the Nasu Thread? I would like to add 2 points I forgot to deal with alongside slightly tackling what Tdjwo mentioned if that's fine by you.
    (Similarly, I sent you a message on Discord to talk about something related to all of that)
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Can you show me a draft
    SweetDao
    SweetDao
    I forgot to mention two points in my original post because I was in a hurry to write it, I apologize for that.

    She says that she was demonized by Sabbat and gained higher dimensional senses that made her omnipotent in this dimension.
    Click to expand...
    Dimension and dimensional are used quite loosely in that sentence. The "in this dimension" clearly means a plane of existence, not an "additional spatial axis". Therefore what Kiara effectively did was be able to see a greater place beyond the "human world" that I assume is beyond the regular universe. I'll explain why at one point.

    The thing is, "Higher-dimensional" has either two or three significations here. The first one would be quite literally "Seeing things as 4D/5D". The second one would be "higher dimensional" in the sense that she sees a place beyond her world. The third one would assume that "higher dimensional" is not something literal but in fact poetic or metaphorical. Before anything, no "her being omnipotent in that dimension" doesn't disprove what I'm going to say right now.

    In this scan, we see Kiara saying something very interesting. Her goal during her life was to "gain true sight" therefore finding the right perspective, the truth. The same truth that she states to have beheld. Notice how she doesn't say "a part of the truth" but very factually states that it is "the truth of the world.".

    To explain in one sentence, gaining such a new perspective allowed her to peer into another plane of existence that made her realize how minuscule/powerless she was. Nothing more, nothing less. In fact, she further cements what I'm trying to say when she states the following :

    "What then was the purpose of my metamorphosis, if all my efforts served to do was demonstrate to me how pitiful I was?"
    Click to expand...
    She didn't wish to get "higher dimensional" but just obtain what she sought. Remember who took Kiara as an example? Roa himself. The first thing he said is "how endless the perception of humans is", and how no matter transcendent you are, there is still someone above you.

    Kiara is the perfect example to illustrate his words, yes. But not in a High 1-B perspective. The only factual thing that happened is Kiara "being" inside another plane of existence and seeing stronger people around her. She reached a place that is qualitative, not quantitative. Or in other words "Because Kiara got to that place, she realized there were always people stronger than her." and not "Kiara got to that place, but an infinite number of other qualitative places exist above her with stronger people inside."

    Nothing indicates any sort of infinite dimensional hierarchy, especially because Roa used Kiara as an example. This just shows how shallow perception can be sometimes. Be it in the human world or in the "demonic heavens", there is always someone above you, Roa is just making a parallel really.

    The main issue now is obviously the fact that she is stated as omnipotent in the regular world. As I explained earlier, it all depends on what "dimension" truly means here. However, seeing the antecedents with Nasuverse regarding higher dimension, it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that "Higher-dimensional senses" means at the same time a dimensionally superior point of view (as in metaphorical), alongside an actual superiority over her plane of existence (as in physical). I personally can't imagine the usage of such words to mean "4D/5D" stuff, that would make no sense at all in the context.

    As for why I mentioned that for me the demonic heavens shouldn't be in the universe, I'll tackle it now. Roa states that Kiara is still bound to this universe, indeed. However, when he tells the story, he explains why she was still bound inside it. It's because she decided to stay on her own accord, not because the demonic heavens were within the universe itself.

    Now, Roa said this :

    "But even she is still bound by her material form---- still bound to this universe. As for why-----"
    Click to expand...
    The sentence is self-explanatory. If she was still bound to this universe because she willingly decided to stay, it means that if she had wanted to fully embrace the demonic heavens she wouldn't be bound to this universe anymore. Therefore it's not a stretch to say that the demonic heavens aren't within the human universe. (Little additional note: I talked with KingNanaya and he explained to me that maybe the demonic heavens could be on the reverse side of the world, but idk what it entails tbf so I'll not delve deeper into that.)

    Roa himself states that what Kiara was able to sense was the "outside" of the world. Whatever it even means. Although I would interpret it with it meaning something outside of the universe. Moreover, what he is doing is more or less an existential crisis since he understands that seeking strength (like Kiara) or happiness is useless. Thanks to his reincarnations, he understood that what was truly important is to continue to exist "as a self" rather than as a person. I'll take what he means more conceptually as in "an identity that doesn't belong to only one body".

    As for a little counter-argument for Tdjwo post :

    This implies that Raum who is also higher dimensional(6D, likely 8D) wasn't able to affect the inside the Universe because the Universe itself was preventing him from doing so. So while this isn't a blatant showcase of an High 1B universe, it still helps us understand that the Universe is the reason that higher dimensional beings can't transcend it. Add this scan with Roa's statement of "infinite levels of transcendence still being bound to the universe," then you will get a very concrete High 1B statement tying to the Universe.
    Click to expand...
    You said it yourself, it's absolutely not dealing with an infinite dimensional universe. You're trying to plaster something that could make sense but feels like a stretch. If at least there was some sort of mention of "dimensional", "dimensions", space attribute, or whatever, I could see the link but right now it feels like trying to put the "High 1-B statement" into the situation to explain things that I'm sure made sense on their own within the narrative itself. Moreover as explained above, Kiara was going to leave the universe if she truly wanted to do so, but she preferred to remain within it, so it wouldn't even make sense/impact the universe itself if somehow the statement is High 1-B.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Okay, you can post that.
    Tdjwo
    Can I get your permission to discuss on this thread?
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    Tdjwo
    Tdjwo
    Yeah, you're right but mine is somewhat different from his. I will write the draft and send it soon.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    I should clarify, the difference needs to be fairly significant. If I read it and feel like its 80-90% the same, I'd rather you just propose the extra 10-20% in a shorter comment than trying to write a full rebuttal that mostly echoes what Nanaya already said.
    • Like
    Reactions: Tdjwo
    Tdjwo
    Tdjwo
    I already sent a dm to you about the thread. Can I post it?
    SweetDao
    Hello Deagonx and sorry to bother you, I would like to you know if I could get permission to comment on this thread.

    However, I'm not that much knowledgeable in Fate besides the very obvious stuff. Heck, I didn't know who Roa was before that stuff. Therefore if you refuse to grant me permission because of this, I would understand.

    My main contention with the thread is the fact that somehow, we use the words of someone like Roa as an absolute truth to deduce infinite higher dimensions when, frankly, I feel like he was just ranting about the finitude and shackles of existence. I mean his whole gimmick is literally transcending death by reincarnation, so I feel it's not completely out of context to assume.

    While I know it's not a massive argument for what I'm saying, there exists a similar saying in Chinese, There are people beyond (this) person, and skies beyond (this) sky. And the proverb in itself means literally the same thing as what Roa is saying.

    Roa : No matter how transcendent we become, there is always a higher level.

    Proverb : No matter how good you think you are, there is always someone out there that is better.

    The second case clearly doesn't refer to an infinitude of people above you, it's just metaphorical at most. We could also deal with the fact Roa uses Kiara to illustrate his words, but the fact "dimension" here is clearly used as a "plane of existence" rather than spatial ones is enough to disprove such a statement.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Sure, can you post a draft here of what you intend to say exactly?
    SweetDao
    SweetDao
    I have some contention with the quote of Roa. Moreover, I feel like the bigger context of the scene was left out by these screenshots themselves.

    In the first scan, we can see there is a bit of text untranslated at the top. When translated, it gave me the following quote :

    Why reincarnate? It would be easier to continue living as an individual and not bother others.

    Since the literal following of the sentence is him talking about how "endless is the human perception and path to omnipotence" we can safely assume that the context before that sentence is important to truly grasp the meaning of it. He first and foremost talks about himself and reincarnation before talking about higher-dimensional stuff. Maybe I'm wrong, but no matter what, I STRONGLY feel that everyone needs the full scene and not just the interesting tidbits to fully understand the scene.

    As such I strongly advocate for a link or a fully screenshotted album of that scene before making any assumptions regarding what it could give.

    With that out of the way, I would like to tackle Roa's quote directly.

    There is no end to human perception, no end to the path to omnipotence. No matter how transcendent we become, there is always a higher level
    Click to expand...
    I have a massive problem with that latter half. No matter how I read it or I interpret it, I can only see someone talking about the meaningless of the "human" existence and the finitude of life. His whole "There is no end to human perception" feels more like he's saying "There is no true path and people see stuff differently" rather than literally stating "Perception can extend to infinite dimensions". Of course, it's with taking the context BEFORE the quote itself.

    The part with the endless path to omnipotence is interesting but no matter how you interpret it, you can't assume it's dealing with "endless levels of higher dimensions to reach omnipotence".

    One of the main reasons for this is because Kiara gained supposed "omnipotence" through higher-dimension senses in this dimension.
    She says that she was demonized by Sabbat and gained higher dimensional senses that made her omnipotent in this dimension.
    Click to expand...
    Now here is the thing. Either what Kiara gained isn't what we can proclaim as "true omnipotence" or she indeed gained the very same omnipotence Roa was talking about. If it's the second case, I would request an explication on why getting higher dimensional senses somehow would grant her omnipotence but I guess it's explained somewhere or just fate doing fate stuff. There is a more interesting question to ask and it's the fact Roa only used Kiara (who was higher dimensional +1 to the humans) to illustrate his words. If I can remember correctly, there was also a scene (somehow not in the OP too) where Kiara is seen as being a mere ant in front of the demonic heavens or whatever their name was, and she preferred to stay/return to the human world.

    Here is the quote I'm referring to.

    My view on that matter is really simple. What could be regarded as omnipotence for someone might just be a power gap for someone else. Those demonic gods are more powerful than Kiara, but nothing dictates that it must be in a Higher Dimensional kind of way.

    In fact, I'll go even further, just like the beginning of the scene was Roa dealing with existence in a metaphorical way (reincarnation/sense of self), I'm quite sure Kiara, who said something similar, is also referring to the finitude and meaninglessness of her existence in front of higher being.

    I spent my whole life trying to gain the eyes to see, but what those eyes saw was not only the truth of the world, but also a lesser version of me.
    It was as if I had strived to know my own miserable self.
    No matter how small the world may be, this me is worth a little more than that one over there?
    Click to expand...
    Notice that we're dealing with "eyes to see", the ability to perceive mentioned by Roa himself. This whole rant is nothing more than a way for himself to explain to the reader that there is no way to truly achieve freedom. Be it via reincarnation, higher dimensionality, or omnipotence, there is no way to truly gain what he's searching.

    Alongside that, I would like to now tackle his semantics.
    There is no end to human perception, no end to the path to omnipotence. No matter how transcendent we become, there is always a higher level.
    Click to expand...
    With everything I explained above, we can safely assume that the latter half is nothing more than him saying, poetically or metaphorically, that there is always someone above you, in the sense that there is someone better than you.

    While not a strong argument, there is a similar proverb in Chinese.
    No matter how good you think you are, there is always someone out there that is better.
    Click to expand...
    I don't think someone reading this would understand "there is an infinite hierarchy of people better than me", no. It just means there is always a sky above you in a conceptual manner, not in a literal way. In my opinion, this is exactly what Roa is doing there. Therefore, I disagree with the usage of that statement to grant a High 1-B Tier.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Okay, that looks good to me.
    Agnaa
    Deagonx said:
    However, for a user to comment indefinitely, they need Bureaucrat approval, they can't just keep renewing approval from a thread mod and circumvent that restriction.
    Click to expand...
    Can you explain where this is said?

    I was under the impression that thread mods and admins could keep renewing their approval on a post-by-post basis, as that would be equivalent to them making the posts themselves.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    I don't believe it was spelled out explicitly, but it seems like the natural conclusion from the limitation. Otherwise the differentiation would be somewhat meaningless?

    Although in this case even if that was the rule, I am not okay with him receiving a no from me and seeking out another mod in response
    Agnaa
    Agnaa
    The differentiation would be that we want staff members looking over every post, to make sure that they don't go in unnecessary circles. I've done that myself, given permission for 2 or 3 and then stopped once they stopped bringing up new points.

    Fair enough.
    Deagonx
    Deagonx
    Fair enough. Perhaps we need more clarity on it.
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