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Scp 3812 upgrade
- Thread starter Zeinx1
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- immesurable scp scp 3812 tier 0
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Complete examples are not proof. SCP-239 may have higher Hume value in certain canons –in others don't, though–. But that does not mean that +1 Hume Value difference means +1 layer in RW.
Hell, Humanity itself has Hume Value –very low, yet it does have it–, but they do not have RW at all. Why would it mean that +1 Hume Value is +1 RW layer, if humans themselves do not even have said ability despite having Hume value?
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You literally said it yourself, bruh... anyway, 343 Hume Value is greater than 239
Hume just measures the strength/amount of reality in a certain area. It is not like greater Hume = greater RW, just that if you have a great hume level compared to your surroundings, you can warp reality in your surroundings even if you have no innate RW abilities. If an area has high concentration of Hume Level, then RW have difficulties exerting their abilities there, because the difference is not high enough for them to do it effortlessly. Backed up by this. It is Hume imbalance what allows a reality bender to use their reality warping powers.
Conclusion: No. Higher Hume value ≠ higher RW level. Hume values just allows you to warp reality if the value of Humes of your surroundings are low compared to you.
You can think of it like gravity: Humans commonly move in 1g planet. If they're pushed to a planet with 0.5g, they'd feel super strong, despite their strength have not changed. They'd be capable of moving objects far more easily than they can on Earth because their weight is far less.
If they're moved to a planet with 3g, however, they could not even walk normally, and they'd need to put so much effort to do something they can do on Earth effortlessly. But their normal strength has not changed, nor is "layered", greater than others. The same happens with Humes: Humes is the "gravity" for RW abilities. If the "gravity" is lower than where you do exist, then it allows you to warp reality far easier (such as the Human in a 0.5g planet example. Far easier≠Layered, such as how 200°C temperature fire manipulation is not layered compared to 100°C one despite it makes easier to burn things), if it is near/greater, then you may even lose your RW abilities (such as a human may loose their super strength-like abilities he seemingly had in a 0.5g planet if he went to a 1g-2g-3g planet)
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Zeinx1
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first of all let me summarize my scale and the discussion on this crt. let me explain for the infinite tier tier on tier 0. why do i think my scale is correct? let me explain. pataspheres are the same thing as narratives. narrative is another name for patasphere (https://imgur.com/gallery/HsNz7hT) and narratives, i.e. pataspheres, are infinite (https://imgur.com/gallery/JaOb6l8) and each one sees the other one as fiction. (https://imgur.com/gallery/bKhUzV8) i am not going to dwell on it too much since the wiki already accepts this situation, i.e. that there are infinite of them and that they see each other as fiction. When we click on the scp page on the wiki, it throws us to the profile of the character scp 001 ıh pickman proposal. (https://imgur.com/gallery/5hN7kD5) and ıh pickman proposal = patasphere (https://imgur.com/gallery/YferdYi) As the wiki accepts and as I have thrown in, scp 3812 can exceed the whole mass of narratives. If narratives, that is, pataspheres, start at level 0, there must be a level 0^inf at the top point and scp 3812 exceeds this. (no one has denied this)immeasurable layer reality warping, a hume is a unit of measurement of the change of reality in an area. and there are infinite humes. to explain why humes should give layers, a reality measured by 2 hume values cannot be measured by 1 hume value logically right? In this case, it remains unreachable. for example, I think it is right for someone with 2 hume values to have 2 reality warping layers. I am not sure about this but I think it is true. the last post by just an abnormal person supports me. anyway there are infinite hume values, each one is like a rung on a ladder that cannot be reached by the other and scp 3812 cannot be measured even by the top
hume proofs=
https://imgur.com/gallery/xpvCc62
https://imgur.com/gallery/mllBwyV
https://imgur.com/gallery/p6F9WMg
Zeinx1
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@IdiosyncraticLawyer I think you forgot to look here.
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Non-staff can't ping anybody. You should ask on his message wall.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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There are so many things wrong here.
- There are infinite Pataspheres, yes, but they exist in parallel, one for each timeline in the SCP mega-multiverse. They aren't stacked.
- SCP-3812 is restricted to being within a single timeline, as the way his narratives work contradicts the Placeverse's model; he doesn't even scale above a single patasphere.
- If we were to accept that SCP-3812 scales above Pataspheres, this would actually downgrade SCP as a whole, as the Noosphere's High 1-A rank depends on SCP-3812's narrative hierarchy being below it, without which it would only be 1-A, and the Seminosphere and Patasphere would also be downgraded to 1-A.
Zeinx1
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The situation is that I proved that patasphere = narrative. and infinite narratives, i.e. pataspheres, pile on top of each other, each one seeing the other as fiction
(https://imgur.com/gallery/bKhUzV8)
So I think I'm describing this situation.
where does it say that scp 3812 is limited to a single timeline? because sefiros character says that the transcendence of scp 3812 is limited to narratives. finding the transcendence of scp 3812 and scaling it on the patasphere does not lower the whole scp and the narrative stack covers the noosphere. so i disagree with that. and why would the patasphere drop at tier 1-a when 3812's tier increases. what you are saying is like saying that there is x character and everyone who sees that character dies
hypothesis = this is not true because not everyone who sees character x dies in the verse.
hypothesis = not dying gives resistance to the whole universe.
Of course hypothesis 1 is true and what you say fits with hypothesis 2.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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That's not how narratives in SCP work. Take a look at this.
@Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Sir_Ovens Could you help me here?
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yeah after Idiosyncratic gave his two cents on the matter (he is far more knowledgeable in SCP than I am) its a hard disagree from me.
We ain't downgrading SCP to 1-A, that just ain't happening.
We ain't downgrading SCP to 1-A, that just ain't happening.
Zeinx1
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First of all, I do not agree with the point you made because narrative stacks are far above the noosphere and already contain the noosphere. ()
That's why I disagree. The narratives that scp 3812 surpasses are not different narratives. Only the narratives of another universe, that is, place, are higher layered. Let me explain it to you this way: The uncountable infinity (also known as alef-nought) is the smallest infinity in mathematics. The difference between aleph-nought and normal infinitive (or just infinitive) is that alef-nought is countable while normal infinitive is not.
Countability means that the elements of a set can be ordered by a counting operation. For example, the set of natural numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, ...) is a countable set because it can be ordered in such a way that each element can be mapped to a number. However, the set of real numbers (including irrational numbers) is not a countable set because it is impossible to sort the elements of this set.
Alef-nought, on the other hand, is a countable set, like the set of natural numbers, because each element can be ordered in a way that is mappable to a natural number. For example, the elements of the alef-nought set can be ordered as follows: 1, 2, 3, 4, ...
If it is normal infinitive, it cannot be enumerated in a countable way like alef-nought. Normal infinity is a definition and is used for large numbers, concepts of continuity, etc. It is used to express some concepts in mathematics such as. For example, there are an infinite number of elements in the set of natural numbers, but it is not possible to sort this infinite number of elements by a counting operation. Therefore, the normal infinity is not countable. The fact that the countable infinity is larger than the normal infinity does not refute the value of the actual infinity, it just elevates it. This is something like that. Also, let's say I'm wrong. Doesn't scp 3812's transcendence of narratives increase the level of the noosphere and refute it? You said narratives don't work that way, but you know there are endless narratives and each one transcends the other.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I have no intention of attempting to entertain such poorly formatted arguments. If you can't express yourself coherently, I'm going to have this thread closed.
Zeinx1
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1.= the existence of more layered and formal narratives, such as the place model, does not affect the value of narratives exceeded by the scp 3812 character. think of it as infinite and uncountable infinite
2. If you refuse to take an infinite layer on 0, you have not taken hume's values so I do not think it is right to close it
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First of all, I am Zeinx, I do not have a vsb account, I am writing to this thread from my friend. But my friend is not active right now, so I will answer from another account. I'm in a hurry because I don't want the thread to close. I worked hard
summary =
one. scanning
pataspheres = narratives
patasphere starts at level 0
its characteristic successive transcendence
In this way, the layer we get is infinite layers on 0.
scp 3812 goes beyond this and comes to this layer.
2. scanning
hume is an instrument that measures changes in reality
There are infinite hume values, and for each part of these hume values they remain unmeasurable.
In other words, 1 hume value cannot measure a reality change in 2 hume indicators.
and scp 3812 is unmeasurable even with the infinite hume value at the top so the unmeasurable layer is the reality distorting layer
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I think this CRT fundamentally lacks an understanding of our current tiering of SCP. 3812 is the tier it is in because Katusverse exists below Placeverse. The Narratives it transcends do not operate on the level of Placeholder Narratives and are thus limited to 1-A.
Humes are not a very reliable source of scaling because they are inconsistent in their portrayal between authors.
I'm rejecting this CRT.
Humes are not a very reliable source of scaling because they are inconsistent in their portrayal between authors.
I'm rejecting this CRT.
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My mann
Zeinx1
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first of all, the problem is that a higher place model does not disprove the cactus narratives. a higher tier of the cactus narratives also means a higher place model
I used the definition in vsb for humeler. So there is no contradiction, if there is a contradiction for scp 3812, please send it.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Humes are not comparable across all canons.
His lack of humes is attributed to him being a higher narrative being. But this isn't a consistent thing across all depictions of such things. This article, for example, clearly establishes that most reality warpers in the SCP verse, use narrative manipulation to achieve this effect. Which would include any of the classic reality benders which can be calculated with Humes. SCP-3812 lacking Humes in Kaktusverse thus doesn't mean he suddenly scales above all reality warpers across the entire verse. Hell this very article I linked acknowledged that the nature of Humes is different in each universe. You absolutely cannot do this kind of scaling unless it's within the same canon.
I've also said this in the past and I'll say it again: I don't want an EU key for SCP-3812. Too much incongruent shit has happened with this guy across too many different appearances for an EU key to be coherent. People can't agree if 3812 is limited below conceptual space, if he's equal to Swann, if he's equal to 2747 or if he's far above all narratives. And I'd really appreciate if people stopped trying to upgrade 3812 based on evidence like that over and over.
His lack of humes is attributed to him being a higher narrative being. But this isn't a consistent thing across all depictions of such things. This article, for example, clearly establishes that most reality warpers in the SCP verse, use narrative manipulation to achieve this effect. Which would include any of the classic reality benders which can be calculated with Humes. SCP-3812 lacking Humes in Kaktusverse thus doesn't mean he suddenly scales above all reality warpers across the entire verse. Hell this very article I linked acknowledged that the nature of Humes is different in each universe. You absolutely cannot do this kind of scaling unless it's within the same canon.
I've also said this in the past and I'll say it again: I don't want an EU key for SCP-3812. Too much incongruent shit has happened with this guy across too many different appearances for an EU key to be coherent. People can't agree if 3812 is limited below conceptual space, if he's equal to Swann, if he's equal to 2747 or if he's far above all narratives. And I'd really appreciate if people stopped trying to upgrade 3812 based on evidence like that over and over.
MattSatire
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Honestly, I don't want to see another upgrade for this ascending guy because Saikou always uses the same excuse because it contradicts narrativistic and you.
This is quite funny, it seems like the person who made this narrativistic did it on purpose to downgrade one of the characters
i hate to say this but whoever this guy it's feels like he want to knock down some SCP character, violating rules in vs battles (i want to report this honestly)
even without narrativistic and you scp scaling it would be safe because the article was written not long after cosmology SCP made a major revision ig
This is quite funny, it seems like the person who made this narrativistic did it on purpose to downgrade one of the characters
i hate to say this but whoever this guy it's feels like he want to knock down some SCP character, violating rules in vs battles (i want to report this honestly)
even without narrativistic and you scp scaling it would be safe because the article was written not long after cosmology SCP made a major revision ig
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MattSatire
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it's pretty obvious to say that this is kind of violating rules
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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SCP-3812 not applying to proper narratives in the Metafoundation canon is just a commonly agreed-upon fact among those dealing with this cosmology seriously. Place said so too if I'm not wrong, Narrativistics simply puts this concretely in an actual article.
This just follows the general trend that 3812 (or any other SCP like that) just jumping through narrative layers on their own is nonsensical and does not fit with the modern, more fleshed-out model we see today. Even 5500 went in this direction, introducing the idea that the Foundation jumping a narrative layer to kill the authors was just a ploy by the real, actual authors. And that this murder of SCP writers is done in a lower, "proxy" narrative level also created by the authors. This isn't new. And it's not some ploy to downgrade 3812 specifically (though I don't think they enjoy how power-hungry 3812 was written). That's just how this cosmology works. 3812 at its very core doesn't make sense in the actual fleshed-out pataphysical models.
Mind you, narratives are only really Tier 0 when taken with modern lore that establishes how they relate to the Noosphere, the Semiosphere, the Patasphere, etc. SCP-3812 isn't entitled to scale to that just because it's dealing with narratives. If most authors dealing with this new model don't agree with 3812 being able to climb infinite layers of the cosmology or anything, then we shouldn't scale 3812 to it. That's just how this works.
And yes, I try to be more lenient with this kind of stuff with other pataphysical anomalies. Trying to scale them to Tier 0 if possible. But it's just not possible with 3812. This guy is just too wide-reaching in scope to be able to exist in this cosmology. This is especially true with our current interpretation placing the Library and Paragons on a scale similar to these narratives. It's not an interaction that can be chalked up to "3812 only affected the Proxyverse layer", it's an entire infinite cosmology with Paragons and such also scaling above it. At the very least, purely Kaktusverse 3812 cannot fit in the modern pataphysical models. And even EU 3812 is too whacky and out of line for it to scale to the actual Tier 0 narratives to any degree.
This just follows the general trend that 3812 (or any other SCP like that) just jumping through narrative layers on their own is nonsensical and does not fit with the modern, more fleshed-out model we see today. Even 5500 went in this direction, introducing the idea that the Foundation jumping a narrative layer to kill the authors was just a ploy by the real, actual authors. And that this murder of SCP writers is done in a lower, "proxy" narrative level also created by the authors. This isn't new. And it's not some ploy to downgrade 3812 specifically (though I don't think they enjoy how power-hungry 3812 was written). That's just how this cosmology works. 3812 at its very core doesn't make sense in the actual fleshed-out pataphysical models.
Mind you, narratives are only really Tier 0 when taken with modern lore that establishes how they relate to the Noosphere, the Semiosphere, the Patasphere, etc. SCP-3812 isn't entitled to scale to that just because it's dealing with narratives. If most authors dealing with this new model don't agree with 3812 being able to climb infinite layers of the cosmology or anything, then we shouldn't scale 3812 to it. That's just how this works.
And yes, I try to be more lenient with this kind of stuff with other pataphysical anomalies. Trying to scale them to Tier 0 if possible. But it's just not possible with 3812. This guy is just too wide-reaching in scope to be able to exist in this cosmology. This is especially true with our current interpretation placing the Library and Paragons on a scale similar to these narratives. It's not an interaction that can be chalked up to "3812 only affected the Proxyverse layer", it's an entire infinite cosmology with Paragons and such also scaling above it. At the very least, purely Kaktusverse 3812 cannot fit in the modern pataphysical models. And even EU 3812 is too whacky and out of line for it to scale to the actual Tier 0 narratives to any degree.
MattSatire
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I think you need to see this
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This is literally just a joke. A joke in hidden text at the end of a very long and in-depth article that's relevant to other writing. This does not mean it was created purely to kneecap 3812 as you people believe (and that thing doesn't even specifically mention 3812 anyway).
And no, this article wasn't made because of our revisions. All this does is elaborate on lore which was already known (either through WoG or actual articles). This is mostly just concretely canonizing info we knew already. Claiming that this entire article created by a well known author was made solely to downgrade your favorite is frankly ludicrous.
And no, this article wasn't made because of our revisions. All this does is elaborate on lore which was already known (either through WoG or actual articles). This is mostly just concretely canonizing info we knew already. Claiming that this entire article created by a well known author was made solely to downgrade your favorite is frankly ludicrous.
MattSatire
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That person isn't stopid to say such a things openly, joking? he did that on purpose to downgrade a character in clear sentence like this
"the Foundation has successfully neutralized the most powerful entity in your current cosmological headcanon. Sorry/you're welcome, I don't make the rules. In fact, all I did was use this gun I found. It was very easy" in fact everyone can do the same thing to make something like this if they want
they even know about the tiering system in vsbattle and do QnA openly even though it's not needed LoL
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Imagine thinking all articles that contradict your character scaling high are created specifically to downplay your character
MattSatire
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I don't care about SCP-3812, but doing sneaky things like that is really unethical especially since they knows about vsbattle tiering system
Instead of talking nonsense like that, it's better to just refute my argument, since everyone on wikidot can create articles and downplay a character as they wish freely.
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Uh...so apparently the people on wikidot uses vs battle wiki terminology. Isn't this supposed to be illegal.
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