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I mean ig we can calculate the likely hood of a thread mod coming hereWhen you need thread mods and admins but Ant only sends you calc members
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The End All Be All of Fire Force Revision Threads!
- Thread starter Maitreya12
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I'm an unofficial modHe called even you even though you are not a staff member
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Looks like we will be waiting here all week.
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When you need thread mods and admins but Ant only sends you calc members
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Now, I'm not the most well versed with how it comes to scaling These Tier 2 feats and above, so forgive me if I'm asking the obvious here, but...
You've pointed out that most of what has been shown for Adolla's reality warping is "hax" applied over a Universal range, and irrelevant to stats.
But then saying that the world of Adolla merging with the Universe is a Universe+ level feat for Adolla itself. The definition of this being:
With the affecting part being defining as:
Now, I can understand coming to this conclusion as the Universe where Fire Force takes place is definitely altered, i.e. the laws of physics have changed, the appearance of objects has changed, the world is set on fire, etc....
But I don't really see the connection to the Evangelist's stats... It isn't the Evangelist personally who is merging the worlds together. The Cataclysm required Pi to be solved and eight Pillars to be gathered, not to mention the despair of humanity across the planet to ensure that the Cataclysm continued (with hope actively slowing it down).
So there's clearly a lot of necessary prep that is required to accomplish a feat such as the Cataclysm and it is not something the Evangelist could have just done on a whim.
To say that this is equivalent to the Evangelist's ordinary attacks, that her durability is equal to this, etc.... I'm not entirely sure as I said, because I'm not well versed with it, but I feel that there ought to be something more than this, right?
Perhaps if elaborated on this section a bit more to explain why the Evangelist's AP/durability should be scaling to this, and why the merging of the worlds should not just be treated as more hax?
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Ok if that’s the case I’d with Arc’s latest post I’d like to as @Damage3245 what are his current opinions on the matter and if he has any contentions towards the proposed scaling what might they be so hopefully I can try and clear up those contentions where I can.
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I possibly have an argument which could reconcile the contention of if Evangelist would scale to Low 2-C physically or not. I'll explain later.
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Brother he said his contentions, they’re with scaling the reality warping to physicals
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I can’t believe I posted my message right as Damage responded lmao
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I literally started typing my message like 20 minutes before I posted it and then got caught up and only posted right after more messages were made
Anyways I’ll get to Damage’s point of contention soon as I think I’ll be able to clear some things up in regards to scaling to stats.
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Totally missed this
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Ok. So from what I understand it seems as though you have no issue with the hax abilities having a universal range to them and are more so focused on the scaling to physical stats discussion. So I’ll do my best to explain away any discrepancy or issue there may be as I believe I know the areas in which this point of confusion may lie and what best things to say to clear up that such area.
With that being said I’ll begin:
The bolded part is one of the area’s where they may be a misconception on what Adolla and the Evangelist is and what it’s doing because….the Evangelist is “personally” merging the worlds together. Let me explain:
What Adolla is, is simply the world of human ideation. It’s the point where all of the collective thoughts and concepts of humanity reach. What the cataclysm is, and all the reality warping that comes with it, is the byproduct of Adolla (the world of thoughts) merging with the real world. The reason it is a universal+ feat is because it is a physical merger of two completely separate worlds, right. That’s where I get the rating from.
Now you may ask what this has to do with the Evangelist and why it scales to her, and to that I say that the reason it scales is because the Evangelis=Adolla. They are the same being. The collective unconscious of humanity. The figure and form you see the Evangelist take is actually meant to be the representation of what humanity has envisioned “God” to be throughout the millennia.
(Real quick to further hammer in the point of Adolla and the Evangelist being the same being and used interchangeably, Haumea the messenger of the collective unconscious sees and directly stares down at the subconscious of humanity through Adolla’s eye. And when Haumea fused with the Evangelist and then subsequently removed herself from it, all that was left was Adolla and the despair it embodies itself, not even the human like form the Evangelist took on before. The same Adolla itself that Shinra completely negged casually.)
What the Evangelist (and Adolla) is itself is that despair you mention. The Evangelist is the very embodiment of despair (with Shinra subsequently being the very embodiment of the concept of Hope.) The despair that the Evangelist and Adolla embody is the driving force that pushes mankind to long for death.
So when Shinra takes down the Evangelist (and he also directly took down Adolla itself) he’s taking on the very thing that was physically merging with the world itself.
To put it simply: Adolla (the world of thoughts and perception)=The Evangelist (the embodiment of the collective unconscious itself given form)=The Cataclysm (the product of the Adolla world and the real world merging with each other.) They are all the same being.
So the reason it scales to stats is because the feat of the merger of two worlds itself would be physical feat and since the Evangelist is the embodiment of that thing that is performing the physical feat and Shinra is taking down the Adolla itself, it should scale to their stats as Shinra is taking down the thing that is “personally merging” the two worlds together as you describe it.
Not necessarily, or at least not really the kind of “prep” you may think it as since it’s pretty unconventional.
As explained Adolla is the final point of all imagination and where humanities’ collective unconscious ends up in. The reason Adolla and the Evangelist can’t just Willy nilly accomplish the feat on its own is because since Adolla is humanities collective unconscious, for it to perform it’s reality warping feats and bring about an end to the world, it needs humanities collective unconscious to desire that death unanimously.
In fact the reason the moon was warped into the shape seen in FF and soul eater was because it matched humanities perception of the moon. What Adolla’s doing is simply what the collective unconscious of humanity is desiring and perceives.
To make my point very simple: If, hypothetically speaking, I had a button that if I just pushed it the collective unconscious of all of humanity would uniformly desire death, then the reality warping feats that Adolla has shown would be done “on a whim” as you say. Just like that. It would just take the desire and despair for humanity for the feat to be performed which is the “prep” work you mentioned. It would just be convincing humanity to desire that death in the first place and death would come as explained in the series. (Hence the statement: “neither I or the Evangelist is God, they are a collective existence of Human consensus.”) That’s all.
The things such as the solving of pi and the pillars are simply used as bridges to connect the world of thoughts Adolla with the real world as they are completely and totally separated from one another. And even then these bridges come about through humanities collective emotions that all culminate into what Adolla is itself (the very concept of despair)
You’re correct, and it’s my job to present the information in a suitable enough manner with enough backing evidence so that the rating can feel comfortable enough to be applied to the profiles. If I didn’t do enough of a job in the beginning explaining why this scales to stats I apologize I was just more focused on the range and hax based abilities section since that was the more heated topic at the time and thought this discussion can be had after the range and hax section was over and settled with. Which it seems to be now.
I hope I explained everything adequately. Sorry for the long post I just wanted to make sure I got everything I wanted to say down and supply enough evidence and explanation for my argument.
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This post is arguing under two axioms.
The logic behind my argument is simple, if Adolla's is accepted as Low 2-C in scope, and Evangelist is the physical embodiment of Adolla. Then Evangelist would innately be Low 2-C since she's the physical embodiment of a Low 2-C structure. It's similar to The Outsider from Dishonored, who's the physical representation of The Void which is a Low 2-C to 2-B sized structure, granting him AP on those levels since he's the representation of that entire structure given physical form. It necessarily follows until further contrary evidence is provided.
- Adolla’s Universal in size, and has a separate space-time continuum.
- Evangelist is the physical embodiment of Adolla.
The logic behind my argument is simple, if Adolla's is accepted as Low 2-C in scope, and Evangelist is the physical embodiment of Adolla. Then Evangelist would innately be Low 2-C since she's the physical embodiment of a Low 2-C structure. It's similar to The Outsider from Dishonored, who's the physical representation of The Void which is a Low 2-C to 2-B sized structure, granting him AP on those levels since he's the representation of that entire structure given physical form. It necessarily follows until further contrary evidence is provided.
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Just a quick note, Adolla doesn’t need to be a separate space-time continuum (as that would be a solid 2-C rating instead of low 2-C) even if it shares the same space-time as the real world it would still be classified as a low 2-C feat.
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adolla does not share the same space-time with the real world,considering that shinra was in adolla for just a few minutes,but in reality,he was traped in adolla(and time travel to the past)and when he was in reality,like 4 months has pass
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This is false, you can accelerate and slow down time in different sectors of a spacetime without being in an entirely different separate spacetime.
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valid.
PrinceofPein
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First there are no two universes merging in anywhere let me start with that
but for universal merging feats generally
Well since I am here, let me clarify this
Unless the merging is happening across all of time, then there is no tier 2
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So far these are the current stances of those who have commented.Thank you to everybody who are helping out here.
What are the conclusions here so far?
Agree: @Maitreya @Arnoldstone18 @CloverDragon03 (agrees with universal range) @Deceived3596 (agrees with universal range) @Alexander @InfiniteDay @PowerToScale (agrees with universal range) @narutosage15 @CurrySenpai @Dalesean027 (agrees with universal range + AP as well) @Shmooply @Halkum145 @chosen @SupremeGilgamesh @Shey (agrees with universal range) @Greatsage13th @Zoldyck59 @AKUTO123 @Helestias @Therefir (agrees with universal range) @eliaspower1234 @Damage3245 (agrees with universal range) @ObberGobb @Jasonsith (agrees with universal range) @RoyGundam (agrees with universal range) @Excel616
Neutral: @CloverDragon03 (neutral, leaning towards agree for physical stats) @Deceived3596 (neutral/leaning towards agree on physical stats)
Disagree: @Arc7Kuroi @Pain_to12 @ImmortalDread
It seems for the most part universal range for hax based abilities seems to be agreed upon and now we’re in the midst of discussing whether or not this scales to physical stats.
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PrinceofPein
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I should reply by tomorrow, almost done
narutosage15
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Excellence616
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I agree too
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It seems like this thread will likely be accepted then.
Can anybody write a summary regarding what is suggested here and why please?
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Very few people if any agree with uni stats. In fact the only thread mod, Damage, has raised objections to it scaling to stats.
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Yeah as seen below Damage wants to know why this should scale to physicals
So basically @Maitreya is needing to prove why this should scale to physicals
narutosage15
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Hasn’t he already shown how it scales to physicals?
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Well yeah they have so I suppose we're waiting for Damage's response
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Yeah, this. Just need to find time to go through it.
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Aight I gotchu.
So for one, Adolla’s failed merger last cataclysm directly caused tears in space to form between the real world and the Adolla world (hence why we see The Evangelist literally coming out of that tear in space.)
Adolla itself (again the world of all thoughts, perception, and ideas of humanity arrive at.) also directly carries time itself within it including the past from before the last cataclysm. In fact in order for Shinra to even see the past from before the cataclysm, he went in through his link to Adolla to observe it from Adolla’s world. Confirmed further by him here as well. It was even to the point that due to Shinra being in Adolla, his doppelgänger from Adolla took over his body in the real world as months had passed while he was in Adolla.
In other words, how do we know Adolla is merging with space and time? It’s because Adolla’s merger is causing tears in space to occur as well as the fact that Adolla being a world of total concepts including time and directly carries the history of humanities despair inside of it pre-cataclysm.
In fact, there’s even a direct distinction made between the concepts of the regular FF world and the concepts of the people from the past which Adolla and the Evangelist itself completely carry within it that despair from the people of the past.
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So far those who have commented on it scaling to stats, most have stated that their positions are mostly “neutral, leaning towards agree” in regards to it. Damage raised some concerns over it but that was mostly asking for more clarification or evidence in regards to the proposition rather than a solid stance as of yet.
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For now put ne down as agree for all the universal or universal+ range and AP
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