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FIRE FORCE X SOUL EATER CRT (GOD TIER REVISION): ADOLLA X KISHIN

Alexander said:
Do you disagree with 1-A because of vsbw standards or because that idea is not for you.
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Probably a mix of both. A lot of stuff that you can argue sometimes goes against wiki standards. Like how by wiki standards Shinra is only classified as FTL but you can totally argue him to be immeasurable speed outside of that.
 
Maitreya said:
Probably a mix of both. A lot of stuff that you can argue sometimes goes against wiki standards. Like how by wiki standards Shinra is only classified as FTL but you can totally argue him to be immeasurable speed outside of that.
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It's not like you're forced to follow the laws of this wiki anyway, I sometimes mix Csap and Vsbw, mainly because I feel that both have their good points.
I mean, I mean, it's not like vsbw is 100% credible, no powerscaling wiki is credible to be honest, but what is objective is that powerscaling is subjective,it depends on the people's opinion,and that opinion can be established in people to make them believe it is ''objective''when,most of the times,it can basically be not that objective.
 
Alexander said:
I think that since it is already established that adolla is not an other universe and clearly is a higher plane, then that should clearly be enough for tier 1,please is just logical.
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Ignore anyone who picks a side in an unfinished discussion. Only address those who substantiate their opinions. Know this and know peace 🙂. That’s why I haven’t counted anyone who agreed with me too yet.


Maitreya said:
Ok for one, super sorry I came late to this thread.


Ok so I’ve been told you’re the resident expert on tier 1 evaluations and such so this post will hopefully serve as kind of explanation for the proposition (I’m only shooting for a Low 1-C rating, not a High 1-A or whatever lol) and a question for feats for that rating as well.

From what I gathered from reading this text, I believe you said something along the lines of “it can be conceivable for Adolla to be tier 1 if they transcend the 4-D space-time.” (Paraphrasing). And I saw some other posts from other users indicating that for low 1-C additional feats and statements are needed.

I think that can be demonstrated here.

So probably the most obscure feat in the series is when Adolla shifts “reality” into “fiction” through a cataclysm (a merger between the Adolla plane of pure thoughts and the real world). This feat is described to us using drawings as an example. Would you call a stick figure human? It has two arms, legs, and a head so it can be vaguely called one.

This is what happened to the entirety of space-time in the FF verse.

(Note: This happens through the whole space-time continuum as Shinra uncovers this revelation by traveling into the past and seeing what reality was 250 years prior to the start of the series. There’s a clear distinction between which point in time “reality” shifts.)

Now, I’m not an expert on any kind of “5D reality to fiction” shenanigans right, that’s where the “question” part of this post comes into play but frankly I don’t think it’s an ‘unreasonable’ conclusion to come to regarding this feat. Like if you were to ask me what you think a ‘reality to fiction feat would look like’ I would intuitively think that turning what would be considered a “real world” into an “anime/manga world” would classify as such, but I’m no expert on the matter. It would just be important to note that in describing the feat it’s stated that the “rules of the world were rewritten” by the characters. (There’s literally a whole ass chapter in this series of just a real life woman giving exposition and explaining how disgusted she is about humans it’s freaking weird dude.)

Now again, on its own that might not be enough to indicate a low 1-C rating or to reach “5D” levels or whatever, but I think compounded with the information that the Adolla plane is this world of pure human ideations which is portrayed and states as this “transcendent realm” and that it “World beyond human imagination.” About it being the final point to all human imagination and embodies all the concepts which explicitly mentions “higher dimensions” and “mathematics” as some of the concepts it embodies. (Which Adolla has further feats of impacting the concepts of mathematics such as both creating the mathematical concept of Pi and then turning it from an infinite, unsolvable equation to a finite solvable one. Which helps to validate it as encompassing these concepts.)

Adolla has shown to embody “history” itself as well (which is the whole reason Shinra was even able to view the past despite being in the Adolla plane at the time) as the Adolla world carries with it the very history of humanities despair. This gets further proven to be true by how it’s verbatim stated during the second cataclysm that due to the merger of the world of thoughts, Adolla, and the real world, the concepts that Adolla carries of the people of the past are being merged with the present real world.

I think all this evidence of statements and feats compounded together helps point towards the narrative that Adolla truly does operate on this metaphysical, transcendent realm from “reality” and its statement of embodying the very concepts of “higher dimensions” helps to signify that fact.

There’s also some totally obscure feats that also help indicate this as well such as the fact that Adolla straight up sees the world itself as a “story” and labels the characters in the verse as either “explicitly” or “background” characters and can literally have them vanish from reality itself when their “role in the story has been completed.” I think that alongside the previous “reality to fiction” feat Adolla displayed helps shows the kind of “5D” nature I’m talking about when in reference to Adolla.

This also gets supported by how human beings who are not blessed by the Adolla flame can’t do so much as grasp the Adolla plane as they immediately are burned up and killed. In fact you can’t even so much as look into the Adolla world or it’s true form either as your eyes immediately combust as if you stared directly into the sun itself.

There is also the matter that Shinrabanshoman (the very pinnacle of the verse who is cited as being ‘God itself’ and having the acquired “the power of all creation” with the name ‘Shinrabanshoman’ literally meaning ‘all of creation’).

The end point being: There is a lot of evidence from both feats and statements (there’s even more statements like these ones above trust me they say it a lot) indicating that Adolla and the Evangelist act in this “higher dimensional superiority” to the point where it would classify for a Low 1-C rating. Or at the very least I think the evidence compounded together makes it so the conclusion of the Fire Force god tiers being Low 1-C is not an unreasonable conclusion to come to based on that evidence.
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Thanks for your input❤️
 
Quangotjokes said:
Humanity has already merged with Adolla before. It’s not even a physical place. It’s a fictional place that becomes reality with merging with earth as we’ve seen.
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All of reality* Not just humanity. Not just earth. Not just the Universe. All of Reality that includes the space time continuums and any extension thereof.

it is a transcendent world merging with reality. This thread is to determine the nature of Adolla's transcendence that fuses with the dimensions below it.
 
idk if arthur power ups rly make him low 1-C in AP aint it just hax, mmm maybe i can see a "potentially low 1-C" rating or smth
 
So far here are the scaling options based on our Tiering System and the status quo of the forum:

Low 1-C: Adolla is a higher dimension beyond reality. In reality, there are higher dimensions compared to humanity's 3-D nature. Adolla fuses with these higher dimensions and replaces it with its own higher dimensions. The only "higher dimension" shown in Fire Force is 4-D space time continuum, making Adolla's ontological transcendence over the FF cosmology correspond to 5-D in terms of "dimensional" scale as described by our Tiering System.

(Adolla = 1-D*5 = 5-D. Reality = 1-D*4 = 4-D. Adolla + Reality = 1-D*5 = 5-D)

1-C: Adolla is a higher dimension beyond reality. In reality, there are higher dimensions compared to humanity's 3-D nature. Adolla fuses with these higher dimensions and replaces it with its own concept of higher dimensions. There are more higher dimensions that are not shown but stated by Benimaru in Fire Force. These dimensions extend beyond what is shown in the Fire Force 4-D space-time continuum. Since the number of dimensions is not stated, we know there are multiple dimensions that are at least two in number. This makes Adolla's ontological transcendence over the FF cosmology correspond to at least 7-D in terms of "dimensional" scale as described by our Tiering System.

(Adolla = 1-D*6 = 7-D. Reality = 1-D*4 = 6-D. Adolla + Reality = 1-D*6 = 6-D)

1-A: Adolla is an inconceivable higher dimension that transcends the concepts, created by humanity, that it houses. One of the concepts Adolla manifested in Reality via The previous Great Cataclysms include but is not limited to "Numbers", "Mathematics" and "Higher Dimension". During the Great Cataclysm (an event that connects Adolla to the real world), Adolla can manifest, affect, and subtract these concepts from Reality. Transcending the manifestation of these concepts ranges from 1-A to 0 because our tiering system is based on mathematics and dimensionality. However, without any explicit or exact showings of how far numbers, mathematics, and higher dimensions go in Fire Force, anything higher than 1-A may be considered NLF to some members of this site in the highest ranking staff position that do not practice "Death to the Author". Therefore, at the very least, Adolla transcends a set of all real numbers, which includes any possible extension of higher dimensions that is shown to be conceivable by Fire Force's humanity and Fire Force's Mathematics. In other words, Adolla, which is a higher dimension beyond whatever humans in the verse can conceive of, should be at least 1-A.

As described above, Adolla is a higher dimension thats beyond reality and beyond imagination, even though it is a combination of imagination, concepts, and ideation itself. Real numbers are numbers used in mathematics to describe the real world. So logically, in Fire Force, the real numbers are numbers used in their mathematics to describe their reality. Otherwise, mathematics wouldn't exist for physicists, scientists, and engineers. Therefore, Adolla must be a higher dimension made up of coordinates that have all real numbers as merely a subset of a much larger set of numbers. (At least Aleph 2).

Adolla is disconnected from Reality, and will one day merge with reality like this:

(Adolla = Aleph 2, Reality = n-D. where n is all real numbers (Aleph 1). Adolla + Reality = Aleph 2)

Tier 0: No, I know this will never get picked, so I will not bother writing how it can be this tier.



I personally believe Low 1-A is the most accurate interpretation based on everything shown and stated in the series. I implore everyone to choose the most accurate intepretation.

We will discuss who scales via using Adolla's power later.

will add this to the OP.
 
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Just to quickly add something for more information:

It’s confirmed by Haumea that mankind’s collective unconscious (I.E. being their ideas and concepts humanity has thought up throughout its time) are all part of “creation” which Adolla/The Evangelist absorbs.



And then like 2 chapters laters when the true god of the verse, Shinrabanshoman, shows up, he’s explicitly confirmed by Haumea to have the power of all creation (including that of the Evangelist as well) with the Kanji for ‘Shinrabansho’ (Shinra+Sho) literally meaning ‘To rule over all things in creation.’




(Also it’s directly shown to us Adolla absorbing humanities thoughts as well when the time of the cataclysm comes.)

Hopefully that serves to add some depth to the ‘God’/‘Transcendent’ narrative that’s being portrayed here in the series.

(also reminder that when they call Shinrabanshoman ‘God’ they mean it very literally because Shinra Kusukabe himself is the very incarnation of Jesus Christ and the ‘savior’ humanity has thought up across the ages.)
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
Basically the point of contention now is wether or not “mathematics” contains geometry that talks about “higher dimensions”.
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Considering what we know about the Fire Force verse,

The ideas they bring up like “numbers”, “mathematics”, and “higher dimensions” should explicitly be the same as our understanding of them considering the FF verse was directly confirmed to be our own world, with our own real life people walking about.

Hence why literally Jesus Christ is shown as being the ‘savior’ Shinra embodies. Shinra was even born from a virgin mother too no less, our understanding of the FF verse should explicitly coincide with our understanding of our own concepts and ideas of mathematics and higher dimensions due to that fact.
 
Yeah I’m basically trying to show Ultima that. Showing him that all our irl mathematical concepts are the same as those of Fire Force before the last Cataclysm.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Low 1-C looks fine, Tier Low 1-A to 0 has no support in my view. You can't assume Alephs exist without the work stating it and I don't think it has enough for an infinite nested cosmology.
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Thank you! I don't mind Low 1-C!!

Do we really need the work of fiction to state that the word “Aleph” exist?

I can understand Aleph 2 and up.

However, Aleph - 0 is only infinity, and Aleph -1 is only all real numbers. So wouldn't those Alephs count if the work of fiction indirectly stated them with "infinity" [1.0000000..., 1.0000000...1, 1.00000...2...] and "numbers"[0,1,2].
 
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Arnold being a true hero as always.

Anyways, imma compile basically all relevant information for the low 1-C rating into one relatively short post. In case for any future Fire Force downgrades that may occur.

- Adolla is an entity of all of humanities thoughts and ideations. Described as being the final point to imagination and as the place where all of humanities perceptions end up at. This includes the concepts/ideas of ‘higher dimensions, mathematics, world, truth, law, heaven’ all being directly stated as things the Adolla plane embodies. With Adolla having further feats of creating and manipulating the very mathematical concept of Pi.

- ‘Imagination’ is the thing that’s stated to create and erase all possibilities in the Fire Force verse which Adolla is comprised of and Adolla being the thing which absorbs all of mankind’s creations into itself. ‘Creation’ including the aforementioned concepts of mathematics and higher dimensions mentioned earlier.

- Adolla is said to be a higher dimension many times in the series. A world beyond imagination, that which transcends human comprehension. Etcetera, etcetera. Many, many statements like this found all across the series.

- The Adolla plane can’t be grasped by human beings as they immediately are killed in trying to touch the blessed flame. They can’t even so much as look into the Adolla plane either, as it is akin to staring into the sun itself and literally causes your eyes to combust.

- Adolla has feats of turning a real life reality into an anime/manga world and then further changes that universe into an even more cartoony world. This is done through a cataclysm which is a merger of the two separate planes of the Adolla world and the real world.

- Adolla views the real world as a fictional world itself. Referring to it as a ‘story’ with the characters in it being viewed as either ‘background or explicit characters’ and straight up vanishing from reality once their ‘role’ in the ‘story’ Adolla was manipulating was completed.

- Shinrabanshoman being the very ‘God’ of the whole verse itself as well as being the very incarnation of Jesus Christ and the countless ‘saviors’ humanity has envisioned throughout the ages; he is said to hold the power of all creation with the very Kanji for the word ‘Shinrabansho’ meaning to rule all things in creation. With him having feats of altering the fundamental concepts of life and death, and even more notably than that, even going so far as changing the depiction of the world just as Adolla had done prior.

This is basically most of the relevant information all compiled together. All easily accessible and linked here.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
Do we really need the work of fiction to state that the word “Aleph” exist?
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Yes
Arnoldstone18 said:
However, Aleph - 0 is only infinity, and Aleph -1 is only all real numbers. So wouldn't those Alephs count if the work of fiction indirectly stated them with "infinity" [1.0000000..., 1.0000000...1, 1.00000...2...] and "numbers"[0,1,2].
Click to expand...
You would need to prove that those numbers apply to dimensional tiering for those to be valid as a 1-A rating.
 
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