Yhwach, Destroyer of Worlds (Bleach God Tier Revision)

Cyberblader90 · Apr 27, 2021

garganta i feel is still a possible interpretation.

that said, the fabric scan for it that was crucial for proving it being more viable than the dangai option turned out to be fake. damage also presented a scan from ichibe mentioning the flow can affect all three worlds. That and the staff that have been active seem to find the dangai option more likely, partly due to it being called a boundary directly, which i can understand.

With that in mind, we are discussing that the dangai option still leads to the same result.

Cyberblader90 · Apr 27, 2021

https://vsbattles.com/threads/yhwach-destroyer-of-worlds-bleach-god-tier-revision.116084/post-3756393

Damage's contention with the flow of souls argument:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/yhwach-destroyer-of-worlds-bleach-god-tier-revision.116084/post-3756401

Cyber's response to damage's last post:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/yhwach-destroyer-of-worlds-bleach-god-tier-revision.116084/post-3756409

Cyberblader90 · Apr 27, 2021

tldr for new viewers/staff

We have a reached a consensus for the dangai method (Yhwach destroying it to trigger environmental destruction).

All that needs further discussion on this thread is the durability of the dangai, of which we currently accept as planet. We just need to discuss the flow of souls point I brought up.
My current proposal for it is: 5B, possibly 3A.

There will most likely be a second thread discussing how this scales to other god tiers afterwards

PrinceofPein · Apr 27, 2021

Cyberblader90 said:
that being exponential amps from soul king pieces

This won't be a valid reason tho

OverlordDonnelly said:
See, I don't understand the complaints about the scaling. These are the literal god tiers of the series, who almost nobody scales to, at the literal endgame of the series. There are no anti feats because this is them at their best, during the major events of the story's conclusion.

It's not that absurd that there is a jump in tiers when the series has what is essentially a God of Creation, thrown into the mix. If this was a one time feat in the middle of bleach and nothing else ever came close, I'd be inclined to agree it's an outlier and bad for scaling. But at the end of the series, with only like 4 people scaling to it at max? Not much of an issue.

God splits up and separates the cosmology with power. Guy absorbs several pieces of said God's power. Guy becomes uber powerful and wants to use said power to forcibly undo the new cosmology. That's what the narrative tells us and tries to portray.

Therefore, he has to scale at least somewhat to what the Soul King's feat is considered to be, which in this case, is universal. Or, if there is room for doubt, he can possibly scale to it.

Edit: Oops, sorry. The above messages were added as I was typing this all up. I won't say anything else for the time being. Again, my apologies.

If you dont understand my post just say so, don't send me wall of texts and make me read them

Cyberblader90 · Apr 27, 2021

Pain_to12 said:
This won't be a valid reason tho

If you dont understand my post just say so, don't send me wall of texts and make me read them

Pretty sure they understood your post well enough.

I don't see how an exponential amp would not work. It's beyond linear.

PrinceofPein · Apr 27, 2021

Cyberblader90 said:
Pretty sure they understood your post well enough.

I don't see how an exponential amp would not work. It's beyond linear.

Your claim of the exponential amp won't be low 2C cause that would mean everyone who got a part of SK body is low 2C.
So yes not valid

Cyberblader90 · Apr 27, 2021

Pain_to12 said:
Your claim of the exponential amp won't be low 2C cause that would mean everyone who got a part of SK body is low 2C.
So yes not valid

That's actually being currently discussed. Reio in his weakened state is currently unknown so that already bypasses that issue. The notion a low 2-c can't be weakened to the point it lowers dimensionality is absurd. That literally happens all the time in fiction.

GilverTheProtoAngelo · Apr 27, 2021

Pain_to12 said:
Your claim of the exponential amp won't be low 2C cause that would mean everyone who got a part of SK body is low 2C.
So yes not valid

It was just discussed in this thread and in a Q&A that you can subtract finite out of infinite.

So the lesser components of Reio are just that....finite a.k.a 3D .....but the only main body exclusively that sustains the cosmology is still 4D....soooo.

PrinceofPein · Apr 27, 2021

Cyberblader90 said:
That's actually being currently discussed. Reio in his weakened state is currently unknown so that already bypasses that issue. The notion a low 2-c can't be weakened to the point it lowers dimensionality is absurd. That literally happens all the time in fiction.

No one said that, but absorbing something that is no longer low 2C won't give you low 2C like you claimed.
If anything the tier should also remain unknown.

PrinceofPein · Apr 27, 2021

GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
It was just discussed in this thread and in a Q&A that you can subtract finite out of infinite.

So the lesser components of Reio are just that....finite a.k.a 3D .....but the only main body exclusively that sustains the cosmology is still 4D....soooo.

Jugram is also low 2C?
Please rest

And no what happens to reio was not subtraction but division to weaken him, lol

Cyberblader90 · Apr 27, 2021

Pain_to12 said:
No one said that, but absorbing something that is no longer low 2C won't give you low 2C like you claimed.
If anything the tier should also remain unknown.

It's not remaining unknown and low 2-c isn't even being argued right now.

The possible end of the feat is only 3A. You are literally not adding anything new that hasn't been discussed. The whole aspect you're bringing up was brought up with the torrents of energy from soul king was discussed in the downgrade thread which was also eventually dropped

AKM sama · Apr 27, 2021

Damage3245 said:
I'm not sure what I can say in a "closing thoughts" really that I haven't covered before. A lot of what you've posted most recently Cyber is what has already been posted on the thread.

You say that "in order to return to the 'sea of origin'" that Yhwach would have to remove the Garganta itself, but you aren't proving that Yhwach himself would need to personally destroy the Garganta. The crux of Yhwach scaling to Universal+ is arguing that he would personally destroy an infinite space-time.

But I think I've shown that there is no reason to assume this would be the case. Even if we granted that the Garganta was this thing that everyone was referring to, without anybody actually pointing that out or clearing it up, the whole issue of the Bleach cosmos' fragility shows that Yhwach doesn't need to destroy the Garganta himself for the Garganta to be destroyed. The Universe will collapse if things become seriously unstable, let alone if the worlds end up merging.

I've seen people question "How would Hueco Mundo be affected?" "Why would the Garganta be affected?" but as far as I'm concerned those questions have already been answered for us by the manga and the novels. They're all interconnected. The Dangai is the boundary between the worlds because it is the only thing referred to as such in the manga, and it is the literal barrier line between life and death, between the Soul Society and the Living World.

Yhwach's goal is for life and death to mix. The same thing as what would happen if the Soul Society and Living World merged, if the thing preventing them from merging (the Dangai) was taken out of the way.

Ultimately I think that the full scale of the feat, whatever Yhwach was planning, is unquantifiable and that we shouldn't be making large assumptions when they lead to a jump this big (from Tier 5 to Tier 3/2). That's why I'd rather stick with just a Tier 5 rating for Yhwach.

I can't really say it any better than Damage already has. My main problem is basically trying to get a tier that's not only far higher than what has been demonstrated in the entire show, but also hasn't been made clear by any direct statement. And how it asks to make questionable assumption on top of another assumption, for it to work.

Assumption 1: Garganta is the boundary.
I call it an assumption because this has literally zero statement backing it up. Nowhere in the show has the Garganta been called a boundary. The assumption is made due to technicalities that exist purely outside the show. There is only one thing that has been called the boundary and that's not the Garganta. And I personally find the logic that says an all encompassing spacetime that contains everything is a boundary, very iffy, when it is based on no indication in the show.

Assuming that the first assumption is true, it's asked to make another assumption on top of it.

Assumption 2: Yhwach would destroy the garganta mentioned in the first assumption by himself.
Another assumption that has not been stated directly anywhere in the show. The Garganta getting destroyed and Yhwach destroying it himself are two very different things. Not going to say much about this because Damage already did.

The whole thing works even if we go by what's said without making these assumptions, and it wouldn't even contradict anything. And again, when you're trying to make an upgrade from 5-B to tier 3/2, that's considered an extraordinary jump, which would require extraordinary evidence, not extraordinary assumptions stacked on top of one another. This scenario is not appropriate to grant a "possibly" rating because the probability and reliability of these claims fall short (possibility =/= plausibility), a rating that we already have to use very scarcely.

Cyberblader90 · Apr 27, 2021

We moved on from garganta

PrinceofPein · Apr 27, 2021

Cyberblader90 said:
It's not remaining unknown and low 2-c isn't even being argued right now.

The possible end of the feat is only 3A. You are literally not adding anything new that hasn't been discussed. The whole aspect you're bringing up was brought up with the torrents of energy from soaking disgusting the downgrade thread which was also eventually dropped

I never said I agreed or disagreed with anything and I am pointing out flaws in what you guys said, you said the weakened sk tier is unknown and not low 2C but uses that as one of the point to grant someone low 2C

Can't eat your cake and have it or whatever the saying go as.

The whole point is that no one became low 2C by absorbing anyone in bleach since thats a contradiction there may be other reasons for that but definitely not absorption of any part of WSK

AKUTO123 · Apr 27, 2021

Pain_to12 said:
No one said that, but absorbing something that is no longer low 2C won't give you low 2C like you claimed.
If anything the tier should also remain unknown.

How ridiculous is this leap just because we don't accept it high. reio sucked and said he had the power to destroy 3 worlds yhwach no matter how many D's what he absorbed, it is stated by anyone that he can destroy worlds once he gets a power rise. A 3D character can attack in 4D. Goku is 3D but has low 2C attack power. A character with 3A skips form and cannot be low 2C, according to your logic, this is rotten and does not match the wiki.

Cyberblader90 · Apr 27, 2021

Pain_to12 said:
I never said I agreed or disagreed with anything and I am pointing out flaws in what you guys said, you said the weakened sk tier is unknown and not low 2C but uses that as one of the point to grant someone low 2C

Can't eat your cake and have it or whatever the saying go as.

The whole point is that no one became low 2C by absorbing anyone in bleach since thats a contradiction there may be other reasons for that but definitely not absorption of any part of WSK

Then bring it up with the site because he's unknown officially on the site. So Is mimihagi. That is not me saying it that is the site saying it. Both are officially listed as such.

Low-2c isn't even being argued anymore. I was directly told that the current argument for the higher end durability for dangai it's 3A only

Cyberblader90 · Apr 27, 2021

But anyway yeah we are not done.

Last thing on the table is dangai's durability.

And then a separate CRT for scaling

AKUTO123 · Apr 27, 2021

Pain_to12 said:
I never said I agreed or disagreed with anything and I am pointing out flaws in what you guys said, you said the weakened sk tier is unknown and not low 2C but uses that as one of the point to grant someone low 2C

Can't eat your cake and have it or whatever the saying go as.

The whole point is that no one became low 2C by absorbing anyone in bleach since thats a contradiction there may be other reasons for that but definitely not absorption of any part of WSK

the weakened sk must be at least low 2C 2C. but with the most ridiculous argument I have ever seen in my life, ie "regulates the flow of souls" vs. Battle does not accept.

Damage3245 · Apr 27, 2021

Last thing on the table is dangai's durability.

I would scale Yhwach up to be 5-B from Senna's feat, which the Dangai survived. Beyond that, the Dangai is unquantifiable and I would not approve of a "possibly Universal" for it.

Cyberblader90 · Apr 27, 2021

It's 4:00 a.m. for me so I'll have a ride up for I guess my closing thoughts full and full breakdown of dangai when I wake up in the morning

Cyberblader90 · Apr 27, 2021

Damage3245 said:
I would scale Yhwach up to be 5-B from Senna's feat, which the Dangai survived. Beyond that, the Dangai is unquantifiable and I would not approve of a "possibly Universal" for it.

Hard disagree since the flow of souls is quantifiable unless you actually have something that invalidates that.

Like I said it's 4:00 a.m. where I am so I'll respond fully later.

But the flow is treated as having a constant output upon the structure and that same flow has the power to send all the physical Realm of the Soul society crashing into the world of the living without exploding.

In fact in the movie we are just told that the souls flow into the overall flow as energy. So the flow traveling through a structure would just be exposing that structure to its energy.

PrinceofPein · Apr 27, 2021

AKUTO123 said:
How ridiculous is this leap just because we don't accept it high. reio sucked and said he had the power to destroy 3 worlds yhwach no matter how many D's what he absorbed, it is stated by anyone that he can destroy worlds once he gets a power rise. A 3D character can attack in 4D. Goku is 3D but has low 2C attack power. A character with 3A skips form and cannot be low 2C, according to your logic, this is rotten and does not match the wiki.

If u don't understand please stfu or ask
SK was divided into part if anyone is getting tier for getting a part of the sk the rest will also get the same rating.

Cyberblader90 said:
Then bring it up with the site because he's unknown officially on the site. So Is mimihagi. That is not me saying it that is the site saying it. Both are officially listed as such.

Low-2c isn't even being argued anymore. I was directly told that the current argument for the higher end durability for dangai it's 3A only

Anyone that scales to someone unknown also becomes unknown tho, thats the site rule not granting tier for absorbing something unknown. It always goes like this
Unknown (absorbed the WSK hands or whatever)

AnonymousBlank · Apr 27, 2021

Pain_to12 said:
I never said I agreed or disagreed with anything and I am pointing out flaws in what you guys said, you said the weakened sk tier is unknown and not low 2C but uses that as one of the point to grant someone low 2C

Can't eat your cake and have it or whatever the saying go as.

The whole point is that no one became low 2C by absorbing anyone in bleach since thats a contradiction there may be other reasons for that but definitely not absorption of any part of WSK

My argument isn’t Cyber’s, don’t conflate the two stances.

Cyber is arguing based on the Dangai surviving the constant flow of souls which is able to destroy universes.

I am arguing that Prime Reio was Tier 2 and that all the fragments we see are 3D with the sole exception of his corpse which is rated as Unknown because it’s only feat is a stabilisation feat, despite the fact that any division of infinity is still infinite so no matter how much lower the energy requirement for stabilising something is, it would have to be proven to be an infinite amount less.

Cyberblader90 · Apr 27, 2021

Pain_to12 said:
If u don't understand please stfu or ask
SK was divided into part if anyone is getting tier for getting a part of the sk the rest will also get the same rating.

Anyone that scales to someone unknown also becomes unknown tho, thats the site rule not granting tier for absorbing something unknown. It always goes like this
Unknown (absorbed the WSK hands or whatever)

Evidently not how this is being handled considering that planet has been accepted. He has a feat that can be quantified after receiving his amps.

PrinceofPein · Apr 27, 2021

AnonymousBlank said:
My argument isn’t Cyber’s, don’t conflate the two stances.

Cyber is arguing based on the Dangai surviving the constant flow of souls which is able to destroy universes.

I am arguing that Prime Reio was Tier 2 and that all the fragments we see are 3D with the sole exception of his corpse which is rated as Unknown because it’s only feat is a stabilisation feat, despite the fact that any division of infinity is still infinite so no matter how much lower the energy requirement for stabilising something is, it would have to be proven to be an infinite amount less.

Oh my bad then

OneBleachHurricane · Apr 27, 2021

Pain_to12 said:
If u don't understand please stfu

Is it so hard to behave in a civilized manner? I don't recall anyone telling you to do that.

YukaSama4 · Apr 27, 2021

Pain_to12 said:
If u don't understand please stfu or ask

now this is very rude, you have been saying many things before that many people including me think that its dumb, like scaling Ichibe to Ichigo, no one was speaking to u in a negative way, speaking like this wont solve anything but will make other problems so either u relax and speak in a civilized way or just quit the thread please, we dont need more negativity here.

Damage3245 · Apr 27, 2021

@Pain_to12; take this as a warning to be more respectful on these CRTs.

Greenshifter · Apr 27, 2021

@AnonymousBlank makes sense to me, there’s a reason why we treated guys like Atomic-X at low 2-C for years for containing 50% of the DNA of a low 2-C.

YukaSama4 · Apr 27, 2021

his argument makes sense to me as well, another thing is that we treat SK here as 3A to low 2C
whatever you substract from a low 2C you will get low 2C, the thing that you divided can be finite but the SK should still low 2C too, since you cant divide an infinite to below infinite, so his sealed body should still have that power, right?

GilverTheProtoAngelo · Apr 27, 2021

YukaSama4 said:
his argument makes sense to me as well, another thing is that we treat SK here as 3A to low 2C
whatever you substract from a low 2C you will get low 2C, the thing that you divided can be finite but the SK should still low 2C too, since you cant divide an infinite to below infinite, so his sealed body should still have that power, right?

Yeah logically.....but sadly no....

AKM sama · Apr 27, 2021

I am pinging a few more staff members to take a look at this and give their thoughts.
@Soldier_Blue @DarkDragonMedeus @Jvando

Cyberblader90 · Apr 27, 2021

I will write up a summary plus closing thoughts shortly I guess.

Cyberblader90 · Apr 27, 2021

Oh considering just how much he also knows wouldn't it be good to call in duedate?

He seemed quite knowledgeable on concepts like the flow of souls in the downgrade thread

AppleLord · Apr 27, 2021

Damage3245 said:
I'm not sure what I can say in a "closing thoughts" really that I haven't covered before. A lot of what you've posted most recently Cyber is what has already been posted on the thread.

You say that "in order to return to the 'sea of origin'" that Yhwach would have to remove the Garganta itself, but you aren't proving that Yhwach himself would need to personally destroy the Garganta. The crux of Yhwach scaling to Universal+ is arguing that he would personally destroy an infinite space-time.

But I think I've shown that there is no reason to assume this would be the case. Even if we granted that the Garganta was this thing that everyone was referring to, without anybody actually pointing that out or clearing it up, the whole issue of the Bleach cosmos' fragility shows that Yhwach doesn't need to destroy the Garganta himself for the Garganta to be destroyed. The Universe will collapse if things become seriously unstable, let alone if the worlds end up merging.

I've seen people question "How would Hueco Mundo be affected?" "Why would the Garganta be affected?" but as far as I'm concerned those questions have already been answered for us by the manga and the novels. They're all interconnected. The Dangai is the boundary between the worlds because it is the only thing referred to as such in the manga, and it is the literal barrier line between life and death, between the Soul Society and the Living World.

Yhwach's goal is for life and death to mix. The same thing as what would happen if the Soul Society and Living World merged, if the thing preventing them from merging (the Dangai) was taken out of the way.

Ultimately I think that the full scale of the feat, whatever Yhwach was planning, is unquantifiable and that we shouldn't be making large assumptions when they lead to a jump this big (from Tier 5 to Tier 3/2). That's why I'd rather stick with just a Tier 5 rating for Yhwach.

Soul Society and World of the Living were going to collapse in Memories of Nobody and the Dangai wasn’t affected or mentioned to be destroyed at all. That argument is fully.

Damage3245 · Apr 27, 2021

@AppleLord; different feat. Different context.

I think I've said all I need to on the subject. Waiting to see if any other staff members respond.

Cyberblader90 · Apr 27, 2021

Summary of what is agreed upon thus far
Both I and Damage now going off the dangai method for the following feat. The most crucial piece of evidence of it being the garganta turned out to be fake so i asked for its removal as evidence.

The feat:
"At first, Ginjo had thought the religious organization was related to the Quincies and was indicating the new king would be Yhwach. However, he had heard Yhwach’s goal was not to rule over the three worlds but to remove the boundary itself between the worlds and return everything to primordial soup."

Meanwhile, Tokinada responded to Nelliel with a serious, unsmiling expression. “How rude of me. However, the truth is that I am simply showing my gratitude toward Ichigo Kurosaki. Had he not defeated Yhwach, the boundaries between the three worlds would have disappeared and we would have returned to a universe in which there would be no cycling of konpaku, wouldn’t we? Such an action would have reduced the Soul Society’s history to naught. I would like to make this a universe where he receives commendation befitting his achievement of preventing that occurrence.”

Evidence from the novels recontextualizes this feat as environmental destruction by destroying the boundary, which will then make everything primordial soup, which Damage has repeatedly shown either via the novels or manga is due to the flow of souls.

The boundary has been proven the be the dangai:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translations-requests-thread-new-forum.107531/post-3750815

That name refers to the essence of the Shinigami's task.

The number of souls that exist in Soul Society and the Living World are always kept even.

They are divided by a "boundary line" called the Dangai (断界) so as to avoid making contact with each other.

Otherwise, the balance of the 2 worlds will crumble--

Causing both to collapse.

三界の垣根が無くなり、魂魄の循環しない世界に戻っていた事だろう。

垣根 means border. border and boundary are synonyms. The manga has referred to the Dangai as both.

So essentially Yhwach going to bust this structure.

We already acknowledge the dangai has shown the durability to tank senna's small planet+ blast (2x below baseline 5-b ). To destroy this yhwach as to out put dare more energy than to destroy it.

Myself, AKM, and Damage have accepted this part already as 5B. I requested scaling (who scales and what keys) be a second thread.

The only topic left for discussion here is a higher end durability for the dangai via the flow of souls traveling though it and it remaining intact.

Damage's issue with is as follows:

the issue is that the flow itself is an Unknown figure, even if we assigned it an AP. It's an unknown number of souls transferring at anyone time on a regular basis.

And unlike say the Blanks being exploded by Senna which is understandably an AP feat, the simple act of a soul crossing the Dangai cannot be assumed to have comparable energy to all of that power being released at once in a volatile explosion.

I will address that here and close.

The number of souls travelling trough dangai is a constant value. They do have a quantifiable ap value given by the manga.

The sheer power of it can push the SS universe into the Wotl universe, ending everything. I was told repeatedly such a feat is 3-a, as it doesnt qualify for low 2-c, as its just essentially ramming a universe into an other.

The dangai acts a s a structure that limits the souls going though, acting a boundary line. So it not only has the flow travel through, it limits it.

The main complaint is the flow does bring out energy like's senna explosion. This is false.

We are shown in MoN that souls enter the flow essentially as energy.

The film consistently displays souls as having raw energy, which can even be used by shinigami or others to physically enhance themselves.

The blanks are no different from other souls, the only difference being a loss of memories.

The flow does not explode to forcibly collide SS with Wotl:

Its just the souls pouring that does moves the realm. The dangai has all these constantly pass through and even limits them, and never collapses.

Its structural integrity/durability is shown at least to be relative to the destructive output of the flow.

As such i am proposing the following:

Planet, Possibly Universal under the premise we have two ends for its durability and sufficient evidence for a possibly rating.

Attack Potency

Destructive Capacity is the term used to determine the amount of damage a character can produce. It is normally the deciding factor of VS matches along with Speed. It is measured in units of energy. An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive...

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AppleLord · Apr 27, 2021

Damage3245 said:
@AppleLord; different feat. Different context.

I think I've said all I need to on the subject. Waiting to see if any other staff members respond.

Both feats are about collapsing the worlds as your interpretation of the Dangai theory. I'm not talking about the Senna feat in context, so care to elaborate how is the feat any different? You sound like your avoiding an important hole in your theory to run with it.

AKM sama · Apr 27, 2021

Cyberblader90 said:
Oh considering just how much he also knows wouldn't it be good to call in duedate?

I thought somebody already pinged him at the start of this thread. @Duedate8898's input is also appreciated.

Also, the environment destruction is a no because it's hyperspecific to the given verse only. Not actual environment destruction that applies in general. Anybody with that power can cause environmental destruction here. It's more about the workings of the verse than an actual power of a character.

Cyberblader90 · Apr 27, 2021

agreed on leaving the ED out. Im fine with that. Ill remove it from my post above

Yhwach, Destroyer of Worlds (Bleach God Tier Revision)

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