Yhwach, Destroyer of Worlds (Bleach God Tier Revision)

[SilentBob34]

We’ve seemed to calm down for this thread so to avoid further cluttering it, I propose we wait and allow Damage and Cyber to continue their discussion since they’ve almost reached a middle ground it seems like

 

[AKM sama]

I don't see why it's being labeled as a cop-out per se.

Because it's based on a single highest interpretation of what's provided and that too has weak evidence to back it up. While other interpretations provided work with less assumptions and make more sense. I think it's only being pushed because it gives a higher rating, not realizing that to make a jump of that magnitude you need to have extraordinary evidence.

It’s not a copout and so far you’ve yet to debunk anything Cyber has stated.

Just because you choose to ignore and not agree with, or it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean problems have not been pointed out.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Great so according to AKM we’re pushing it cause we’re wankers. I love posts like this.

You literally can’t even explain your argument clearly and you’re talking about copouts?

No one agrees with your “part of Garganta” argument like at all.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Atleast at this point....almost all party agree with this atleast...even AKM.

"At Least 5-B" so they're above Baseline but aren't 3X Baseline because:

Since its only SS planet the blast epicentre starts...I doubts it would be allowed to go beyond that.

If that's the case then why would they have an "At Least" next to the Tier?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Great so according to AKM we’re pushing it cause we’re wankers. I love posts like this.

You literally can’t even explain your argument clearly and you’re talking about copouts?

No one agrees with your “part of Garganta” argument like at all.

thats the best type of argument

 

[USklaverei]

It must be great to be mod, not have to prove your point and still force your interpretation even if the whole context says otherwise.

 

[SilentBob34]

Because it's based on a single highest interpretation of what's provided and that too has weak evidence to back it up. While other interpretations provided work with less assumptions and make more sense. I think it's only being pushed because it gives a higher rating, not realizing that to make a jump of that magnitude you need to have extraordinary evidence.


Just because you choose to ignore and not agree with, or it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean problems have not been pointed out.

Can we please wait until Damage and Cyber can talk to each other? I’ll admit I was heated before but I’m calm now and I generally think those 2 are some of the most level headed people to discuss this thread

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

"At Least 5-B" so they're above Baseline but aren't 3X Baseline because:

If that's the case then why would they have an "At Least" next to the Tier?

Since the other planets are in other dimensions...
His blast would need to travel there with 2C range for all 3 planets to be affected..
And technically its 3A/low2C destruction....but lets not derail now....lets allow Damage and Cyber to conclude...we can discuss this if that fails.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

I wish Imade would comment one more time

 

[Damage3245]

I'd like to add something. One of the main reasons people were opposing the Dangai part earlier was because Hueco Mundo is seemingly unconnected and shouldn't be involved in the balance between Soul Society and the Living World.

In the first novel, Ichibe states this:

“The opposite, the opposite! You’re much, much more powerful than any old Hollow. If we carelessly purify or eradicate you the way things currently stand, the balance between the three worlds would collapse.”

So doesn't that prove that the fate of Hueco Mundo is tied into the balance between the Soul Society and the Living World? And therefore destroying that balance (or the boundary between them, which is stated to be the Dangai) would affect Hueco Mundo?

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Since the other planets are in other dimensions...
His blast would need to travel there with 2C range for all 3 planets to be affected

Then they're just Baseline 5-B, via Yhwach destroying SS (The Planet), if that's the case, and don't get an "At Least" attached to the Tier right?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Omg no...? Did you seriously grab a statement saying “ 3 worlds” to debunk everything we've posted?

Seriously how is this strong evidence?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Then they're just Baseline 5-B, via Yhwach destroying SS (The Planet), if that's the case, and don't get an "At Least" attached to the Tier right?

Thats what Damage and Cyber will discuss among other avenues.

 

[Damage3245]

Omg no...? Did you seriously gran a statement saying “ 3 worlds” to debunk everything we've posted?

Please don't get defensive. I'm trying to continue a conversation with Cyber here.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

This isn't defensive its a response to your post.

 

[AKM sama]

Way to go and strawman what I said. When did I use the word wankers, please tell me. I'll help you, here's the statement:

I think it's only being pushed because it gives a higher rating, not realizing that to make a jump of that magnitude you need to have extraordinary evidence.

All I said that higher ratings are being pushed when "extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims" is a thing.

@Tyri456

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

That doesn't mean every little possibility needs to be made clear in the profile. The term should be used sparingly. It says that there. And the probability and reliability of the event should also be notable. Just because it is less than likely doesn't mean we slap it in every profile based on any kind of possibility.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Because it's based on a single highest interpretation of what's provided and that too has weak evidence to back it up. While other interpretations provided work with less assumptions and make more sense. I think it's only being pushed because it gives a higher rating, not realizing that to make a jump of that magnitude you need to have extraordinary evidence.


Just because you choose to ignore and not agree with, or it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean problems have not been pointed out.

i am not pushing on "highest interpretation", its being argued because the novels and manga go hand in hand. We are given context on a previously vague feat.

The only other interruption is the busting of the dangai, which as explained prior involves a few plot holes.

plot hole number 1:
Hueco mundo is divorced from the SS/Wotl/dangai structure. It is not connected to the dangai. Relooking at reio for comparison, we have an explicit garganta will be gone, no mention of the dangai being the cause. We acknowledge yhwach's endgame is to repeat what he first tried via killing reio, which will affect the Garganta.
Garganta keeps all the worlds apart (hueco mundo included). You have to affect it to bust hueco mundi, not the dangai. Dangai is strictly for the flow of souls, but not hueco mundo or other realms besides SS/Wotl.

Plot hole number 2:
Yhwach is going to reduce everything back to the the sea of origin, which is stated in novel 3 to be all of creation. Affecting the dangai wont do that, neither will pieces of garganta. Given context from novel 2 and 3, the boundary encompasses all of creation. You have to bust the entire thing to go back to the sea of origin.

I have no singular bias to wank the verse or anything like that. i dont even like yhwach that much narratively. My intent is to look at what was provided to us by kubo and narita and then make sense of it. What it poitns to is the above, the boundary being garganta, and yhwach returning everything back to the sea of origin.

In no way is that a cop out.

 

[Cyberblader90]

damage i will respond shotly

 

[Gitagon]

Indeed this. I'm seeing people try to conflate Dangai with Garganta when that has never been the case. Dangai doesn't even have anything to do with this conversation yet I saw it brought up multiple times.

As for Garganta, it is a boundary but also way more than that. It's like a soup and the different realms are suspended in it like ingredients. It pervedes everywhere. Some people think that just because it's a boundary, it's like a think wall but it's much much bigger.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I'd like to add something. One of the main reasons people were opposing the Dangai part earlier was because Hueco Mundo is seemingly unconnected and shouldn't be involved in the balance between Soul Society and the Living World.

In the first novel, Ichibe states this:



So doesn't that prove that the fate of Hueco Mundo is tied into the balance between the Soul Society and the Living World? And therefore destroying that balance (or the boundary between them, which is stated to be the Dangai) would affect Hueco Mundo?

what novel and page is this btw

 

[The_Pink_God]

i dont even like yhwach that much narratively

Now that's the rarest breed I ever saw
Bleach fan but doesn't like Yhwach
Lmao that's rare

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

This statement Damage posted from the novel is in relation too Grimmjow due to his massive soul count present within his body.

If he were to killed he would likely upset the balance of souls which would lead to catastrophic results unless they can replace 100s of millions of souls.

Hollows are part of the soul cycle so I don't see what this debunks.

 

[Damage3245]

what novel and page is this btw

Novel 1, Page 17.

This statement Damage posted from the novel is in relation too Grimmjow due to his massive soul count present within his body.

If he were to killed he would likely upset the balance of souls which would lead to catastrophic results unless they can replace 100s of millions of souls.

Correct.

 

[Cyberblader90]

first response is pretty simple. Isnt this statement inherently contradicted by multiple espada deaths in the manga?

This actually creates further plot holes, since yhwach could kill grimmjow at any time, or harribel

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

This statement Damage posted from the novel is in relation too Grimmjow due to his massive soul count present within his body.

If he were to killed he would likely upset the balance of souls which would lead to catastrophic results unless they can replace 100s of millions of souls.

Hollows are part of the soul cycle so I don't see what this debunks.

irrelevant but why didn't we get the Grimmjow's soul power 100 million then? If I remember correctly, there was such a strange system for serie in this wiki (were we looking at soul power or something)

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

first response is pretty simple. Isnt this statement inherently contradicted by multiple espada deaths in the manga?

This actually creates further plot holes, since yhwach could kill grimmjow at any time, or harribel

Yes. Even Barragan the 2nd oldest hollow has no effect. Kubo doesn't even once acknowledge an espada’s death upsetting the balance or any hollow besides Iko.

 

[Cyberblader90]

i doubt grimmjow had more than the higher espada, he didnt even become a vasto lorde

actually didnt rukia kill a hollow with thousands of souls?

 

[Tyri456]

Yhwach even had Yamamoto Bankai + tons of broken sternitters.

What he clearly obtained and aimed after becoming Soul King by absorbing part of it, was something beyond the mere scope of destroying a planet and create chain reactions.

 

[Damage3245]

first response is pretty simple. Isnt this statement inherently contradicted by multiple espada deaths in the manga?

This actually creates further plot holes, since yhwach could kill grimmjow at any time, or harribel

Context of when Ichibei is making the statement is important. He says "If we carelessly purify or eradicate you the way things currently stand..."

They had just come very near to everything collapsing after all.

The point is more that Hueco Mundo would be affected by it too.

 

[Gitagon]

I still don't get this dangai argument. Dangai has nothing to do with Hueco Mundo let alone the numerous valley of screams. If the Dangai got affected, it would only affect the world of the living and Soul society.

The only thing that can affect all realms in Bleach is the Garganta.

 

[Cyberblader90]

furthermore, on the other side without dismissing the statement, i dont think this inherently proves Hueco Mundo is part of the dangai or connected. Its most lilkely in reafference to the flow of soul, which came into its current form after all three realms split. Doesnt harm the garganta option

 

[Cyberblader90]

Context of when Ichibei is making the statement is important. He says "If we carelessly purify or eradicate you the way things currently stand..."

They had just come very near to everything collapsing after all.

The point is more that Hueco Mundo would be affected by it too.

question, how long was this after yhwach's death?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Yhwach is still being cut up during that scene. Since the Espada are in the palace. The other Squad Zero members aren't even ressurected yet.

 

[Damage3245]

question, how long was this after yhwach's death?

"Immediately after the conflict" apparently.

 

[Tyri456]

About Garganat is even bigger than every dimension, we can see it visually and also we know that there are actually other dimensions that are not present in the diagram because detached from Soul Society and Living World, that speaks a lot abut his size, not to mention the statements that place it at almost infinite

It isn't stated that a chain reaction would destroy Garganta.

It is like claiming that destroying a nation will destroy the entire continent.

Garganta isn't related to the dimensions. It fills all the space between them.

How the destruction of something smaller inside it, will destroy completely the Garganta?

The more I look at it, the more I am convinced it is fair to give a rating for both scenarios.

 

[Cyberblader90]

well we know immediately after they binded yhwach's corpse.

Still the cosmology was already in shambles from reio death and then mimihagi's defeat.

i think a plot hole is still viable, because yhwach had the almighty and should have enough knowledge to know what ichibei said is true. thus it creates this weird scenario where he just needed to kill grimmjow or someone like him, and not go with what what he got.

Still i think the better argument is the one above. Contextually this doesnt mean the dangai is the all encmpassing boundary they mention in the novel. It proves what we already knew from the creation/split event. Hueco mundo has a place within the new system

 

[Damage3245]

i think a plot hole is still viable, because yhwach had the almighty and should have enough knowledge to know what ichibei said is true. thus it creates this weird scenario where he just needed to kill grimmjow or someone like him, and not go with what what he got.

If we're talking about plot holes, then all Yhwach had to do was not absorb the Soul King and he'd get what he wanted anyway. And why waste time building himself a fancy castle and taking a nap when he could have just gone ahead with his plan?

It isn't stated that a chain reaction would destroy Garganta.

It is implied by Ganju's statement, and the explanation of the "collapse of the Universe".

How the destruction of something smaller inside it, will destroy completely the Garganta?

The three worlds are the foundations of the Bleach cosmos, as Cyber just posted up above.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Yhwach wanted a world without death. If he just let the Soul King die there wouldn't be a world left. Since there would be no one to remake it.

Nowhere does it state destroying the contents of Garganta would destroy the Garganta itself. Nothing is linked to it. It would simply remain intact as the void it already is.

 

[Damage3245]

Yhwach wanted a world without death. If he just let the Soul King die there wouldn't be a world left. Since there would be no one to remake it.

Yhwach wanted a world where life and death were mixed together.

Which is exactly what would happen according to Rukia if everything collapses.

And everything collapsing is what would happen if the Soul King just died.

Nowhere does it state destroying the contents of Garganta would destroy the Garganta itself. Nothing is linked to it. It would simply remain intact as the void it already is.

Ganju states that if they failed, then even the Garganta would be gone. The three worlds, as pointed out Cyber up above, are the foundations of the cosmos. If they collapse, or if the lynchpin, the Soul King, is removed, then everything (the Universe) would collapse into its original pre-split form. That includes the Garganta.

 

[Cyberblader90]

they are foundations in the sense that the flow of souls sprang from this division. the old sea of origin existed without them.

The old cosmology's ultimate difference, besides the split, is the existence of the boundary.

This kind of leaves me to my ultimate issue with the dangai interpretation.

per what the manga say, the main function of the dangai is soul division, but it is not a auto support pillar:

it is actually split from the two realms, divorced from their space and time.

It is just a space between them.

Every single collapse statement from the manga ascertains the same thing, flow of souls can make ss spill in to wotl regardless of dangai. Not the reverse.

That is to say, dangai destruction wont auto trigger the collapse. The flow of souls would have in these instances. It is not a auto support pillar to the cosmology.

Early in the war arc, the quincies tried a mass purge, was then counter balanced. Dangai collapse is not needed for yhwachs goal.

So why garganta then?

because it is the supporting fabric:

which the novels prove by having it stated it protects dimensions such as Koygokus:

Consider the following:

Garganta wraps around everything in creation. yhwach's goal: Turn everything in creation back to the sea of origin, shown on panel to be via energy.