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Siding with Cyber here still.
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Yhwach, Destroyer of Worlds (Bleach God Tier Revision)
- Thread starter Cyberblader90
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Context is also important, Ichibei could be lying just to not directly say "thanks for the help and since you are ichigo's friends I won't kill you." What do you think would happen if Ichigo finds out that Ichibei killed Nel? Is a copout to avoid direct combat with Ichigo's allies.
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repost of the list link that that has links to the entire discussion, since it was lost in page transition.
also a proposal to damage. Since we both agree on planet, and are just discussing the nature of the rest of boundary feat, i propose stuff like who scales and to what keys be moved to a second thread. That way this one purely remains on reaching a consensus on the rest of the feat.
PrinceofPein
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Quick question although a bit derailing and I apologize in advance.
Is the Almighty a 4D hax?
I mean the reason why it was considered 4D was because it was used to separate the worlds, now that you guys no longer think so, does it still remain 4D and why?
Is the Almighty a 4D hax?
I mean the reason why it was considered 4D was because it was used to separate the worlds, now that you guys no longer think so, does it still remain 4D and why?
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As of right now the ability is treated as 4D, IF this thread passes the ability will be 3D and only the AP would be 4D
PrinceofPein
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No this is not the thread, the thread has already been passed so the ability is now 3D.
The thread about the SK separating with his power not hax has already been passed
PrinceofPein
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The reason why it was 4D was because of the SK seperation, now since it was not done with the almighty, it becomes 3D
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I'll have a relevant update to this discussion to post in a few hours.
It's quite important
It's quite important
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My position still hasn't changed. The fact of the matter is, there isn't a conclusive piece of evidence that points towards Yhwach destroying an infinite space-time, the arguments all rely on the inherent assumption that he does being true. However, at the end of the day, it is simpler not to make those assumptions. We don't need to assume that Yhwach would personally destroy the entire Garganta for his plan of life and death mixing together to come to fruition.
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ill be responding to that actually, since something came up in regards to that. As for your assessment, not really supported by garganta being gone from soul king's death, which yhwach will replicate the effects of the merge, and if we go off the notion the boundary is the garganta, that assessment fully falls flat.
Yhwach's end goal is a complete to the old universe, which did not have boundary period. The Japanese raw posted a few times now supports that claim, since everything is back to the sea of origin, which was all of creation without a boundary. The notion it is specifically only a portion doesnt hold up.
That said i have to retract a scan used for this interpretation
Yhwach's end goal is a complete to the old universe, which did not have boundary period. The Japanese raw posted a few times now supports that claim, since everything is back to the sea of origin, which was all of creation without a boundary. The notion it is specifically only a portion doesnt hold up.
That said i have to retract a scan used for this interpretation
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I don't see how that doesn't hold up, if the ultimate end result is everything returning back to how it was in the beginning of is what I said would be the case.
Which one?
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This scan, which mentions garganta is the fabric of reality. I was sent this scan much earlier in this thread, and yesterday decided to reverse search yesterday night.
https://tumblrgallery.xyz/post/1649394.html
It is a fake scan, made by fans. As such I am asking this be ignored as evidence, as further usage of it would be dishonest.
Instead I will expand upon my last post that goes over the two different interpretations of the collapse. Also from now on i will be citing where scans are from in order to avoid this situation again.
https://vsbattles.com/threads/yhwac...god-tier-revision.116084/page-10#post-3750577
Beyond the issues I lay out here regarding a sudden cosmology collapse from just destroying the dangai, I would also like to compare the destruction methods abd compare it to what needs to happen to return everything to the sea of origin.
Dangai
(Chapter 46, Viz Version)
The way a hypothetical dangai collapse would is one of the two realms essentially spilling in to the other.
(Chapter 615, Viz Version)
The dangai acts as the space between the two and as a "tube". However:
- In Chapter 407, Isshin claims it is cut off from time and space from Soul Society and World of the Living.
- In Chapter 408, Isshin explains that Dangai is surrounded by dense layers of time and disconnected from both.
Reio's death sequence (relevant for the garganta section), doesnt match this option.
In Chapter 616, we are shown an earthquake simultaneously shaking the three realms of existence. In chapter 615, Kisuke supports this by asserting that Soul Society, Hueco Mundo, and World of the Living will cease to exist upon Reio’s death.
The realms dont spill into each other. Yhwach later attempts a similar cosmology destruction which we are told will make the realms lose form, and by askin will destroy all three realms and make everything a new. Dangai destruction doesnt seem to match the layout of what needs to happen. It also doesnt help that it is not an auto support pillar to the cosmology per se (refer to my last post linked before the dangai section).
What if the reio method and yhwach method just play out differently?
Kind of unsupported. The official translation for all 3 cant fear your own world novels paint the picture that both are the same layout, with destroying the boundary in the process:
"At first, Ginjo had thought the religious organization was related to the Quincies and was indicating the new king would be Yhwach. However, he had heard Yhwach’s goal was not to rule over the three worlds but to remove the boundary itself between the worlds and return everything to primordial soup."
Meanwhile, Tokinada responded to Nelliel with a serious, unsmiling expression. “How rude of me. However, the truth is that I am simply showing my gratitude toward Ichigo Kurosaki. Had he not defeated Yhwach, the boundaries between the three worlds would have disappeared and we would have returned to a universe in which there would be no cycling of konpaku, wouldn’t we? Such an action would have reduced the Soul Society’s history to naught. I would like to make this a universe where he receives commendation befitting his achievement of preventing that occurrence.”
The boundary line
In Chapter 492, a seated officer explains that Dangai is the boundary that separates the spiritual realm and physical realm.
Damage had previously mentioned at one point to refer to the raw, which I did:
That name refers to the essence of the Shinigami's task.
The number of souls that exist in Soul Society and the Living World are always kept even.
They are divided by a "boundary line" called the Dangai (断界) so as to avoid making contact with each other.
Otherwise, the balance of the 2 worlds will crumble--
Causing both to collapse.
It matches the viz with the difference is that its more so a boundary line for the two realms specifically. "Boundary line" is also the literal translation here
Consider the model from chapter 615 once more:
Heuco mundo is not connected to the realms or Dangai. We know from the first guide book its somewhere between the two, but as shown by above model not anywhere near.
The following is a basic fan diagram to illustrate this better:
The dangai collapse has two problems now, beyond my original from the prior post. It cannot touch hueco mundo and its far different than the model we are given for the event for the collapse we have from the manga.
What about the Ichibei quote?
Probably the best evidence for this method, though it doesnt have to be this method. At the time of the quote Yhwach had just died and was being bound, so he wasnt acting as the sustaining force for the realms.
Garganta
Without the fabric quote, i would to display that the garganta being the general boundary is very much feasible.
Garganta wraps around all the realms and fills all spaces.
(Cant fear your own world)
Also from the same novels is confirmation of garganta protecting the Kyogoku dimensions within it.
In Chapter 627, Ganju claims that if they lose even the Garganta will disappear if they lose, in reference to reio's death.
Reio's death would severely damage the boundary before mimihagi saved everything.
(Cant fear your own world volume 3 raw)
"At first, Ginjo had thought the religious organization was related to the Quincies and was indicating the new king would be Yhwach. However, he had heard Yhwach’s goal was not to rule over the three worlds but to remove the boundary itself between the worlds and return everything to the sea of origin."
Sea of Origin as previously mentioned is all of creation at the beginning, before the implementation of the boundary. To return to that, you have to obviously remove the boundary to do so. I find it quite odd to argue destroying a small portion would do this. SS + Wotl are not all creation, everything in Garganta is. Yhwach ios going back to where it began, before the three families had Reio change things.
Supported by the following, scans from the third volume:
The sea of origin was the chaotic world at the beginning, all of creation.
Reio made a boundary which encompassed that prior creation (sea of origin). We are told yhwach will go back to that world by the raw posted above, which works with the manga says.
last point is while the fabric statement is fake, i think the idea of it might still be present.
From the Databook Masked, and a scan from Unmasked
Arrancars open garganta when they travel, which is also stated to be what opens on the ends of the realms.
Raw if you want it, but the scan above is official english.
On least thing, though speculative.
"Curiously, their different motives led them to the same goal: to separate the current world. There would be a reishi world, a kishi world, and also a sand paradise that would be the destination of the Hollows both worlds produced. Or, alternatively, other forms of worlds might come to being, but what was most important was to have worlds with a clear distinction between life and death. In order to make the separation of the three realms reality, they required the power of the man who had transcended everything. “It is said that the Shiba clan’s ancestor attempted to persuade him, but in that opening, the Tsunayashiro clan’s ancestor sealed the Reio into a crystal. I did not view what had happened then firsthand, but everything that followed is the history of the Soul Society itself.”The man who would later be called the Soul King… Using his almighty power as the linchpin, the five created the foundations of the new world: The Soul Society, the world of the living, and Hueco Mundo. Souls were given a division between life and death, and through that cycle, the world moved on to a new stage. "
We know that the garganta is a reishi void, per Urahara. (Chapter 240).
While it's ambiguous whether or not Reio straight up created reishi we do know that the physical and spiritual worlds were one prior to him splitting them by creating a physical and spiritual realm. An information can be made from the fact we know he made a boundary, and going off the fact garganta is a reishi void, and he split reishi apart from kishi when doing the split, it can a bit more evidence to garganta being the boundary.
Conclusion
Dangai destruction doesnt match what we know and is only a singular boundary line. Garganta contextually can still work as the boundary, given the evidence provided. Destroying a small portion of it does not match the sea of origin description or undue the totality of what reio did.
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@Cyberblader90; thanks for the breakdown and retracting that scan. I'll wait for your final point before I give my closing thoughts.
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Let's make things clear. You could say that Yhwach personally destroying all of Garganta is an assumption. Sure, there is no outright statement saying "I will destroy all of Garganta". However, proposals that he'd only destroy portions of it or destroy it via some sort of chain reaction or other means is an even bigger assumption if you could even describe the former as such, considering all the evidence supporting that it is in fact not. Not only that, but the latter proposals are completely unsupported by the manga and novel.
So, please refrain from calling something an assumption if your argument relies on x10 the amount of assumption for whatever you're accusing of being based on assumptions in the first place.
So, please refrain from calling something an assumption if your argument relies on x10 the amount of assumption for whatever you're accusing of being based on assumptions in the first place.
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ill edit it in to the post in a few hours
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Which is still iffy btw. The garganta is not called a boundary ever in the show. It's based on an assumption born out of hyperspecific technicality and weird interpretation that somehow calls the container a boundary. There is only one thing that has been canonically called a boundary.
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It is stated we are talking about a boundary of Hueco Mundo, literally explicitly written multiple times; Dangai is detached and has no relation to Hueco Mundo, neither any other dimensions. Garganta is the only thing that match, The one using weird interpretation of something really blatant is you.
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i have added my final point, and expanded on the one prior.
please read the post, and the one linked at the top of it for my prior post on page 10 about the other dangai issue. Thanks for your time
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It doesn't matter whether or not Hueco Mundo is "physically" connected to it. It is still a part of the same system.
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the post above yours from me adds on that.
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Is Dangai the boundary for HM? Answer me please
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Is there a voting going on?
If so I disagree with Universal Yhwach and other characters. I am okay if you give Yhwach and SK the tier for destroying the Multiverse but I don't think it should scale to their other attacks and abilities, it makes no sense to me.
It's not hard to see that characters like Ichigo don't punch and attack with forces enough to destroy Universes.
If so I disagree with Universal Yhwach and other characters. I am okay if you give Yhwach and SK the tier for destroying the Multiverse but I don't think it should scale to their other attacks and abilities, it makes no sense to me.
It's not hard to see that characters like Ichigo don't punch and attack with forces enough to destroy Universes.
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no voting and given your response im curious if you have read the crt
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Really doesn't seem so.
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My first thought was like this when I heard about the Universel Ichigo for the first time, but really the evidence seems to show otherwise
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I don't know, I didn't see any evidence in the form of Universal feats, I didn't see consistent Universal output for these characters.
For everyone else, by doing comments like these you only show your toxicity. Don't expect everyone to agree with you just because you wrote a wall of text that seems to make sense to you, a fan. Don't try to antagonize everyone who doesn't agree with your opinion.
For me you don't make sense just exactly as I don't make sense for you.
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im just going to wait for damage's response
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I mean to be fair, when your post includes things like;
If Yhwach does become Universal in AP, then guess what, so does Ichigo for harming and fighting him, that's how powerscaling works dude, he doesn't need universal DC feats of his own.
You have to expect a degree of ridicule, this is beyond ridiculous, AP and DC aren't the same thing, you don't need to literally destroy universes with your punches to have universal AP.
If Yhwach does become Universal in AP, then guess what, so does Ichigo for harming and fighting him, that's how powerscaling works dude, he doesn't need universal DC feats of his own.
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Exactly, I don't get how people can easily commit AOE fallacies like this, if this wasn't a fallacy, everyone would be tier 9 lmao.
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Already addressed. I dont want to start another debate. So let's talk about other things.
Let's say I agree with your interpretation, which is a low-end assumption of everything, while our interpretation, is based on taking at face value Yhwach, which would not even cause a contradiction in first place.
If you take that as true, it also has no debunk, because is never once stated it would be a chain reaction, neither Yhwach states he will destroy just Dangai or small part of stuffs, never once; he always talks at the plural of everything.
You know that we are not arguing a full rating? but a possibly? Even taking just the destruction of single realms that would eventually destroy everything would grant at Yhwach that rating, What ya guys are arguing is to just straight up ignore everything higher and accept the lowest when nothing makes your interpretation absolute truth, even by just going with the visual and how the feat was portrayed at the end just by reading the dialogues doesn't support that, Kubo never once implied Yhwach couldn't do that by himself, but quite the opposite.
I understand being skeptical, thus the 2 ratings, but this is another level of skepticism that Bleach is being subjected to.
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he didn't answer ...
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feats are not limitations, by that logic Goku would be planet level and his uni feat would be outlier lol
You know whose attacks didnt destroy universes? Broly and Gogeta, please go and make a thread to downgrage them and look how people will laugh at that.
no offense but, seriously dude, there is something called powerscalling, you dont have to destroy a universe to prove that you are on that level when you have already fought people on that tier and you dont have any anti feats, the Ichigo mentioned in the OP is True bankai Ichigo, go and bring any anti feat for him please
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Nice AOE Fallacy lol.
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guys lets just wait for damage
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Cyber will you open 2-C(Prime Reio again) Bleach Crt after this Crt?
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id rather we come to consensus on this first before even entertaining that idea at all
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You don't need to of course, but you need to have legitimate and consistent Universal feats to scale characters from in the first place.
DB has feats and better statements that support it's ratings. There are blatant statements saying that GoDs can destroy Universes, we almost saw on screen feat of Universal destruction, this is different from Bleach.
It's really not.
You are arguing for a character to be Universal in the first place, so prove he is Universal with Universal feats, prove he has physical strength and his abilities are this powerful by actual feats.
Then scale whoever you want no matter of the DC, idc.
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