Yhwach, Destroyer of Worlds (Bleach God Tier Revision)

[Cyberblader90]

again scaling and stuff like that will probably be a second thread

 

[AKUTO123]

You don't need to of course, but you need to have legitimate and consistent Universal feats to scale characters from in the first place.

DB has feats and better statements that support it's ratings. There are blatant statements saying that GoDs can destroy Universes, we almost saw on screen feat of Universal destruction, this is different from Bleach.

It's really not.
You are arguing for a character to be Universal in the first place, so prove he is Universal with Universal feats, prove he has physical strength and his abilities are this powerful by actual feats.
Then scale whoever you want no matter of the DC, idc.

The existing kojmology is clearly created by the soul king, and the novels are also said, so there is already a 2C creation success. yhwach is also the soul king's (father's). He aims to destroy everything he has created and to make everything the way his father created the Universes, so there is feat. There are also many statements that yhwach will destroy the Universes

 

[YukaSama4]

DB has feats and better statements that support it's ratings. There are blatant statements saying that GoDs can destroy Universes, we almost saw on screen feat of Universal destruction, this is different from Bleach.

It doesn't scale to their punches because characters like Goku never destroyed a universe, this is your logic lol,
Edit: also we have many statements btw, and the world almost got destroyed, stated by reliable sources,
And again I asked you to prove that Ichigo isn't on that tier, I'm gonna show you that whatever you say is done in another verse, which means it's an accepted thing here by our standards, which mean your claims don't mean anything here

 

[PrinceofPein]

destroy it via some sort of chain reaction

This is not an assumption tho its a very valid point like I said in my previous post, the SK death started a chain reaction (very small earthquake that was barely detectable) and yes possibly with time it will get more violent and turn everything back to one.
I dont see the Garganta boundary been removed first like everyone thinks to claim,

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Slacjow is not showing anything useful. It is better to just ignore

 

[PrinceofPein]

It doesn't scale to their punches because characters like Goku never destroyed a universe, this is your logic lol,
Edit: also we have many statements btw, and the world almost got destroyed, stated by reliable sources,
And again I asked you to prove that Ichigo isn't on that tier, I'm gonna show you that whatever you say is done in another verse, which means it's an accepted thing here by our standards, which mean your claims don't mean anything here

False equivalency?
Nice
Would have explained how this is totally different from DB but that will be derailing, but I will just say this, DB characters that can destroy universes are infinitely stronger than 6As or even 5B, something you will know if you watched DB

 

[YukaSama4]

Nice

Thanks.

 

[Cyberblader90]

can yall chill.

Scaling will be discussed in full after we solve the collapse issue

 

[PrinceofPein]

can yall chill.

Scaling will be discussed in full after we solve the collapse issue

This is where you are getting it wrong, this is actually when scaling comes to play, if a feat is not consistent with the verse feats or characters that will eventually scale to the feat it doesn't get accepted.

 

[YukaSama4]

can yall chill.

Scaling will be discussed in full after we solve the collapse issue

Already said that since the first page, but people just like to bring up those points, they like to use the disbelief fallacy, like, come on cyber there is no way that Ichigo is that strong

 

[Cyberblader90]

This is where you are getting it wrong, this is actually when scaling comes to play, if a feat is not consistent with the verse feats or characters that will eventually scale to the feat it doesn't get accepted.

Planet has been accepted already. The only thing in contention is "possibly universal"

there was never a counter to my post second mega post refuting the issues brought up for my solution regarding consistency issues.

that being exponential amps from soul king pieces and my re explanation of tokinada's statement regarding reio being about destroy the world.

You have scaling issue? Cool. Save them till the consensus is reached. We dont have a definitive answer as whether possibly will be on his page till the consensus is reached.

So till then chill

 

[Axxtentacle]

This is where you are getting it wrong, this is actually when scaling comes to play, if a feat is not consistent with the verse feats or characters that will eventually scale to the feat it doesn't get accepted.

No. It just gets called an outlier. It doesn't make the feat illegitimate.

 

[StrawHatArslan]

You don't need to of course, but you need to have legitimate and consistent Universal feats to scale characters from in the first place.

DB has feats and better statements that support it's ratings. There are blatant statements saying that GoDs can destroy Universes, we almost saw on screen feat of Universal destruction, this is different from Bleach.

It's really not.
You are arguing for a character to be Universal in the first place, so prove he is Universal with Universal feats, prove he has physical strength and his abilities are this powerful by actual feats.
Then scale whoever you want no matter of the DC, idc.

You stated that we don't see ichigo destroying universe with punches. I never said was, I'm just saying that you're committing an AOE fallacy, even IF I was you would be incorrect here, since he would scale to yhwach regardless.

 

[KingTempest]

Are yall done?

 

[Cyberblader90]

hopefully

i would ask everyone to wait for damage's post

thank you

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

This is where you are getting it wrong, this is actually when scaling comes to play, if a feat is not consistent with the verse feats or characters that will eventually scale to the feat it doesn't get accepted.

See, I don't understand the complaints about the scaling. These are the literal god tiers of the series, who almost nobody scales to, at the literal endgame of the series. There are no anti feats because this is them at their best, during the major events of the story's conclusion.

It's not that absurd that there is a jump in tiers when the series has what is essentially a God of Creation, thrown into the mix. If this was a one time feat in the middle of bleach and nothing else ever came close, I'd be inclined to agree it's an outlier and bad for scaling. But at the end of the series, with only like 4 people scaling to it at max? Not much of an issue.

God splits up and separates the cosmology with power. Guy absorbs several pieces of said God's power. Guy becomes uber powerful and wants to use said power to forcibly undo the new cosmology. That's what the narrative tells us and tries to portray.

Therefore, he has to scale at least somewhat to what the Soul King's feat is considered to be, which in this case, is universal. Or, if there is room for doubt, he can possibly scale to it.

Edit: Oops, sorry. The above messages were added as I was typing this all up. I won't say anything else for the time being. Again, my apologies.

 

[KingTempest]

Edit: Oops, sorry. The above messages were added as I was typing this all up. I won't say anything else for the time being. Again, my apologies.

No problem.

Everybody, enough.

 

[joshpiece]

I think Cyber is making the most sense with Dangai and the Garganta.

I think a possible rating is good.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not sure what I can say in a "closing thoughts" really that I haven't covered before. A lot of what you've posted most recently Cyber is what has already been posted on the thread.

You say that "in order to return to the 'sea of origin'" that Yhwach would have to remove the Garganta itself, but you aren't proving that Yhwach himself would need to personally destroy the Garganta. The crux of Yhwach scaling to Universal+ is arguing that he would personally destroy an infinite space-time.

But I think I've shown that there is no reason to assume this would be the case. Even if we granted that the Garganta was this thing that everyone was referring to, without anybody actually pointing that out or clearing it up, the whole issue of the Bleach cosmos' fragility shows that Yhwach doesn't need to destroy the Garganta himself for the Garganta to be destroyed. The Universe will collapse if things become seriously unstable, let alone if the worlds end up merging.

I've seen people question "How would Hueco Mundo be affected?" "Why would the Garganta be affected?" but as far as I'm concerned those questions have already been answered for us by the manga and the novels. They're all interconnected. The Dangai is the boundary between the worlds because it is the only thing referred to as such in the manga, and it is the literal barrier line between life and death, between the Soul Society and the Living World.

Yhwach's goal is for life and death to mix. The same thing as what would happen if the Soul Society and Living World merged, if the thing preventing them from merging (the Dangai) was taken out of the way.

Ultimately I think that the full scale of the feat, whatever Yhwach was planning, is unquantifiable and that we shouldn't be making large assumptions when they lead to a jump this big (from Tier 5 to Tier 3/2). That's why I'd rather stick with just a Tier 5 rating for Yhwach.

 

[Cyberblader90]

K

Can I post something in regards to the dangai interpretation.

It won't be anything in regards to contesting it at all it's a question that I actually had for you in private messages regarding it's durability

 

[Cyberblader90]

This will be my final post most likely unless closing thoughts are needed after. This post will only focus on the ap of the feat with the dangai model only, using scans from the manga and memories of nobody.

Dangai

Damage has a made a case for it the boundary being the dangai, which admittingly it is called in canon.

We already acknowledge the dangai has shown the durability to tank senna's small planet+ blast (2x below baseline 5-b ). To destroy this yhwach as to out put dare more energy than to destroy it.

However i wanted to discuss that "possibly universal" might still be possible with this model for the following reason:

The flow of souls

The flow of souls passes through the dangai each day, and it never collapses from this process. Could this work for its durability? Potentially.

The flow has enough power to send the SS universe colliding with the Wotl, and that from already being li mited by the dangai, thus the job of the soul reapers to keep it further balanced.

Souls in bleach are stated to have energy and power, as shown in MoN:

this is also stated later:

Blanks are just souls with no memory, that regular shinigami can use energy from to increase physicals stats, and the energy can also be released as shown with senna. They have no fundamental difference form the other souls of the flow beyond loss of memory.

We are repeatedly told the power of the flow in the manga, that it will cause soul society to spill into the Wotl, if not balanced.

Essentially the dangai is durable enough to constantly have the flow travel through and remain perfectly intact. Via raw energy yhwach will destroy that construct. So his output has to match it or exceed it.

Thus i re implement my original proposal. Planet from upscaling from senna, with a possibly uni from potentially having to match the flow in output to bust the dangai

 

[Damage3245]

@Cyberblader90; the issue is that the flow itself is an Unknown figure, even if we assigned it an AP. It's an unknown number of souls transferring at anyone time on a regular basis.

And unlike say the Blanks being exploded by Senna which is understandably an AP feat, the simple act of a soul crossing the Dangai cannot be assumed to have comparable energy to all of that power being released at once in a volatile explosion.

 

[AKUTO123]

Is there any explanation for how yhwach got from SS to dangai? so how far dangai is considered from the SS because yhwach made his last move on the SS

 

[Damage3245]

Is there any explanation for how yhwach got from SS to dangai? so how far dangai is considered from the SS because yhwach made his last move on the SS

Dangai is zero distance away in a manner of speaking. When characters run through the Dangai to reach into the heart of Soul Society, they're not running a Universe-sized distance. When they exit the Dangai and enter Soul Society, or when they exit Soul Society and enter Dangai there is no great distance needed to be travelled.

 

[AKUTO123]

I don't quite understand how yhwach destroyed the dangai. because dangai is not in the SS, it is between the living world and the SS. So yhwach must at least destroy the SS as a planet or as the Universe to destroy dangai, right? so how else can he destroy dangai from the SS? Is my proposal destroying the SS as the earth or the Universe to achieve yhwach's dangai

 

[Cyberblader90]

@Cyberblader90; the issue is that the flow itself is an Unknown figure, even if we assigned it an AP. It's an unknown number of souls transferring at anyone time on a regular basis.

And unlike say the Blanks being exploded by Senna which is understandably an AP feat, the simple act of a soul crossing the Dangai cannot be assumed to have comparable energy to all of that power being released at once in a volatile explosion.

It doesnt have to explode. Soul in either realm when at of balance dont explode to collapse, there is just too many, per rukia's statement. the flow in general has that power. If we go with the dangai option, this is how the collapse will happen. Dangai deals with this on a daily basis

and the flow is constant

But if you want some kind of number, the blanks are minuscule part of the cycle. them being gone doesn't affect it. So the overall flow massively upscales.

 

[AKUTO123]

Dangai is zero distance away in a manner of speaking. When characters run through the Dangai to reach into the heart of Soul Society, they're not running a Universe-sized distance. When they exit the Dangai and enter Soul Society, or when they exit Soul Society and enter Dangai there is no great distance needed to be travelled.

dangai is not in the SS. located outside of dangai SS

 

[Cyberblader90]

should mention in regards to my post above, i am pushing for a "possibly" only

Attack Potency

Destructive Capacity is the term used to determine the amount of damage a character can produce. It is normally the deciding factor of VS matches along with Speed. It is measured in units of energy. An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive...

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[USklaverei]

But I think in that case, no matter how much evidence you have to use the "possibly", it is evident from reading the debate that he (team) just doesn't want it.

 

[SilentBob34]

I know Yhwach was going to destroy everything, but is it possible that he could’ve easily replicated what the soul king did as well?

 

[Cyberblader90]

I know Yhwach was going to destroy everything, but is it possible that he could’ve easily replicated what the soul king did as well?

I'm not sure what you're referring to but if you're referring to him sustaining the realms and then collapse via that that doesn't make much sense since he was still alive when trying the merge. it only happens when the soul King dies

 

[Gitagon]

I think so. He absorbed the Soul King or at least a huge chunk of him, in addition to being his offspring.

Apart from the legs, Yhwach has a huge chunk of the Soul King's body within him so he should at least have a huge chunk of his power too.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Question since the output of the flow of souls is more so just ramming one of the universe's into the other, would that just be entirely 3A or does it qualify for low 2-c

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Question since the output of the flow of souls is more so just ramming one of the universe's into the other, would that just be entirely 3A or does it qualify for low 2-c

Imo its like universes that are separated spatially but exist in the same timeline.

One spatial realm could experience time differently within the same timeline as well.

Imo probably some tier under low 2-C. So most possibly 3-A if seen as such.

Hopefully that makes sense.


Edit: The absoulte best way to prove Low 2-C is have some sort of statement about Past, present, and future on a scale of universe and prove some levels of infinity, or something similar.

Also, for the record im not taking any sides here.

 

[Cyberblader90]

then my proposal for the dangai bust is

5b, possibly 3-a

 

[StrawHatArslan]

then my proposal for the dangai bust is

5b, possibly 3-a

Yeah I think that's more logical.

 

[SilentBob34]

I'm not sure what you're referring to but if you're referring to him sustaining the realms and then collapse via that that doesn't make much sense since he was still alive when trying the merge. it only happens when the soul King dies

I was more referring to how the soul king created and separated everything to create the bleach cosmos. Since Yhwach absorbed a huge chunk of his power couldn’t he recreate what the soul king originally did if he wanted too?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I just want to know where the Soul King's Tier 2 energy went. Because its agreed that he created a tier 2 structure which makes him 4d but somehow all of the pieces of him seem to only be rated as 3d. Since it was said that you can subtract finite amounts of energy from infinity and still be left with infinity (this time), some piece of him has to still be infinity. So which fragment is it? The provably finite fragments or the single piece rated unknown that Yhwach absorbed?

 

[AKUTO123]

I just want to know where the Soul King's Tier 2 energy went. Because its agreed that he created a tier 2 structure which makes him 4d but somehow all of the pieces of him seem to only be rated as 3d. Since it was said that you can subtract finite amounts of energy from infinity and still be left with infinity (this time), some piece of him has to still be infinity. So which fragment is it? The provably finite fragments or the single piece rated unknown that Yhwach absorbed?

his body doesn't have to be 4D because I think the 3D character could be the 4D ap of reio

 

[M11UTD]

then my proposal for the dangai bust is

5b, possibly 3-a

You're not arguing for Garganta anymore?