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He didn't kill ichigo though?
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Yhwach, Destroyer of Worlds (Bleach God Tier Revision)
- Thread starter Cyberblader90
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Im just saying that implies he already had the power. And he left ichigo alive just so he can kill him in the SS which is what he said
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I mean that's the point in time I'm arguing that he reached that level.
So this doesn't really change anything
So this doesn't really change anything
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I find it iffy to assume the Garganta that holds all the realms being interpreted as the boundary between realms. That's a hyperspecific technicality even if you want to interpret it that way. And even then, if you are treating it as a boundary, destroying the boundary that is between realms =/= destroying the entire garganta.
The stuff about Yhwach's supposed destruction and how it's not universal was handled in the previous thread and I find most of the points just repeating what was covered. The context hardly changes anything.
The stuff about Yhwach's supposed destruction and how it's not universal was handled in the previous thread and I find most of the points just repeating what was covered. The context hardly changes anything.
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I’m curious, how was Yhwach handled in the previous thread?
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Think of Garganta as....well..
Take some tomatoes and wrap some flour dough around them....encompass them fully....
Thats the kinda structure Bleach Cosmology has....the dough is Garganta and tomatoes are realms...
So yeah...the Garganta seperates the realms like boundry.
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In the previous crt you considered the destruction of yhwach universal ...
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That’s ...... such a bizarre analogy. The planets and space one in the novels is much better but it will make people think the realms are planets smh
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Where to begin with this...
There is a lot to unpack so I will address each of the major sections I have issue with:
About Tokinda’s comments on Yhwach wanting to remove the boundary (the Garganta) and return everything back to primordial soup, what evidence is there to prove these statements are specifically referring to Yhwach himself directly doing this after absorbing the Soul King? What proves this isn’t just speaking about Yhwach’s original intention of just slaying the Soul King to get to this exact same result?
Yhwach’s original plan wasn’t to absorb the Soul King to do this, it was to kill him after slaying Ichibei and the rest of Squad Zero. The death of the Soul King causes the exact same result as what Tokinada speaks about, returning everything to primordial soup when removing the Garganta. Yhwach never planned to absorb the Soul King until after dealing with Mimihagi unexpectedly and taking the latter’s power for himself. It was a last minute call.
And considering this upgrade is to push a tier 6 being all the way to tier 2, going up by well over a dozen tiers in one go, considerable amounts of evidence are needed to claim Tokinada means the latter, not the former.
First of all, this section starts off by assuming that simply reattaching the gouged out organs of the Soul King would bump him back to his Low 2-C prime power, under the idea that each piece would individually be tiered at Low 2-C on some scale (Low 2-C Gerard, Mimihagi and Pernida?), which would need to be the case in the first place for this to give any kind of exponential boost to the Soul King. So unless Gerard is considered a weaker level Low 2-C for being a part of the Soul King, Yhwach absorbing him or Mimihagi wouldn’t magically bump his peak power to Low 2-C by this line of logic.
Second of all, we need to stop with using “Narrative Implication” as an argument for upgrades, particularly ones as big as this, like they mean a thing. They don’t. Never on this site have we ever given characters a tier just because they’re some new villain that takes the place of the previous one, and by some narrative standpoint, “has” to be stronger than them. Or that because they’re the final big bad of the series, they have to be at a particular level of power. That is not how we judge statistics. Even worse, this hinges on new levels of assumption and speculation regarding character stats too. You can say, from a “narrative standpoint”, that Character A who plans to destroy a given planet “has” to mean they’ll one shot the planet to reach a 5-B upgrade. But that wouldn’t be following our actual standards of needing, you know, real feats and real evidence to warrant that upgrade. And if we accepted that upgrade here despite the lack of those things, we’d be ridiculed even more than we already are. And this time, we’d deserve it. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what should “make sense” or “feel right”. What matters is what’s PROVEN to be the case. And we do that with feats and actual evidence.
Yhwach is no exception to this basic requirement. What needs to be remembered is that Yhwach destroying the worlds, and being confident about doing that, is his plan. A plan is not evidence of a tier, or an upgrade, or anything of the sort. The downgrade thread for the God Tiers expressed this greatly several times. This mentality of “Yhwach needs to be close to the Prime Soul to complete his plan, so he should be Low 2-C” is just a big non-argument. Unless we’re so bent on ignoring common sense possibilities in favor of a desired upgrade that Yhwach was simply being full of himself and was incapable of completing his goal.
As for Yhwach being a piece of the Prime Soul King’s power, this is speculation. Yhwach being a part of the Prime Soul King is never stated as an absolute certainty. It’s not even hinted at as a strong possibility. Tokinda literally admits to not knowing this himself. How this is even supporting evidence in the first place is unclear when the person making the statement, that would bring this implication to begin with, isn’t sure of what he’s saying is true or false. For an upgrade as big as this one, using things that leave room for guesswork isn’t bombshell evidence.
On top of that, this would work against the upgrade more than for it. In order for this to support Low 2-C Yhwach, you have to admit to Reio’s power, even in small quantities, remaining as Low 2-C. And by doing that, this returns us to the inconsistency issues from the last downgrade thread of the Soul King’s power being countered by non-god tiers who have absolutely no business touching this tier of power.
That's an impossibility since he didn't have all of the power of the Soul King. There were pieces of the Soul King he hasn't absorbed. So it would be more fair to say he had all of the power of the Weakened Soul King, which he did. (Weakened Soul King obviously not being a term in the series itself, but something we use to differentiate it).
The former is more probable. At this time, nobody knew that Yhwach had absorbed the Soul King. Ganju could only be talking about it in reference to the natural collapse of everything.
Nowhere is it stated that the full power of the almighty Soul King is required to reverse the feat. Simply removing the preserving power of the Soul King is enough to reverse the feat.
The context would still make sense even with the prior interpretation. Soul Society being gone would mean that all three realms would be gone.
You seem to be ignoring that "Soul Society" means multiple different things. Not only can it mean the planet, or the dimension, but it could also mean the actual society that is Soul Society. The souls and Shinigami that make up the Soul Society. Yama's Bankai being able to kill them is just as plausible, if not more so, as his Bankai being able to destroy "the planet itself."
This is just laughable here, no offense. Never on this site do we take simple volume bonus art sketches as any kind of indicative canon portrayal of a feat, especially for one that never actually happens. Especially since this one is more symbolic in nature via the giant scales being used. This doesn't need much addressing, it’s not going to fly here.
This was already brought up and addressed in the downgrade thread for the god tiers. The Garganta isn’t infinite, and the vague endless statement isn’t changing anything from before.
First, Endless doesn’t get you to infinite. We don’t take endless as anything infinite and we’ve been here long enough to know this. To get infinite, you need “Infinite” straight up stated.
Second, as was also mentioned in the previous thread, this statement given for Garganta being “endless”, which isn’t even accepted on the site at the current moment, is hyperbole. Unless Aura can magically perceive astronomical cosmic sized distances, wandering around inside a large area inside Garganta does not whatsoever mean the location is legitimately endless, infinite or some expansively huge size in relation to her perspective.
This is like saying Gluttony’s stomach dimension from Fullmetal Alchemist is infinite because Edward and Envy wandered around inside of it for a few hours, and arrived at a similar conclusion to Aura’s. Which by the way, also isn’t accepted here for the exact same reasons.
TL;DR- Garganta isn’t infinite. The statement is hyperbole coming from someone who’s only reached that conclusion for wandering around inside of Garganta for some time and perceives it to be some expansive area from her point of view, who's incapable of seeing this from across astronomical distances like this. Even if it can be taken literally, endless still doesn’t mean infinite. The Garganta is finite in size.
Tokinda’s Statement on The Soul King Destroying / Reshaping The World
There is a lot to unpack so I will address each of the major sections I have issue with:
Context provided by Novels
About Tokinda’s comments on Yhwach wanting to remove the boundary (the Garganta) and return everything back to primordial soup, what evidence is there to prove these statements are specifically referring to Yhwach himself directly doing this after absorbing the Soul King? What proves this isn’t just speaking about Yhwach’s original intention of just slaying the Soul King to get to this exact same result?
Yhwach’s original plan wasn’t to absorb the Soul King to do this, it was to kill him after slaying Ichibei and the rest of Squad Zero. The death of the Soul King causes the exact same result as what Tokinada speaks about, returning everything to primordial soup when removing the Garganta. Yhwach never planned to absorb the Soul King until after dealing with Mimihagi unexpectedly and taking the latter’s power for himself. It was a last minute call.
And considering this upgrade is to push a tier 6 being all the way to tier 2, going up by well over a dozen tiers in one go, considerable amounts of evidence are needed to claim Tokinada means the latter, not the former.
Is this Consistent for Yhwach?
First of all, this section starts off by assuming that simply reattaching the gouged out organs of the Soul King would bump him back to his Low 2-C prime power, under the idea that each piece would individually be tiered at Low 2-C on some scale (Low 2-C Gerard, Mimihagi and Pernida?), which would need to be the case in the first place for this to give any kind of exponential boost to the Soul King. So unless Gerard is considered a weaker level Low 2-C for being a part of the Soul King, Yhwach absorbing him or Mimihagi wouldn’t magically bump his peak power to Low 2-C by this line of logic.
Second of all, we need to stop with using “Narrative Implication” as an argument for upgrades, particularly ones as big as this, like they mean a thing. They don’t. Never on this site have we ever given characters a tier just because they’re some new villain that takes the place of the previous one, and by some narrative standpoint, “has” to be stronger than them. Or that because they’re the final big bad of the series, they have to be at a particular level of power. That is not how we judge statistics. Even worse, this hinges on new levels of assumption and speculation regarding character stats too. You can say, from a “narrative standpoint”, that Character A who plans to destroy a given planet “has” to mean they’ll one shot the planet to reach a 5-B upgrade. But that wouldn’t be following our actual standards of needing, you know, real feats and real evidence to warrant that upgrade. And if we accepted that upgrade here despite the lack of those things, we’d be ridiculed even more than we already are. And this time, we’d deserve it. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what should “make sense” or “feel right”. What matters is what’s PROVEN to be the case. And we do that with feats and actual evidence.
Yhwach is no exception to this basic requirement. What needs to be remembered is that Yhwach destroying the worlds, and being confident about doing that, is his plan. A plan is not evidence of a tier, or an upgrade, or anything of the sort. The downgrade thread for the God Tiers expressed this greatly several times. This mentality of “Yhwach needs to be close to the Prime Soul to complete his plan, so he should be Low 2-C” is just a big non-argument. Unless we’re so bent on ignoring common sense possibilities in favor of a desired upgrade that Yhwach was simply being full of himself and was incapable of completing his goal.
As for Yhwach being a piece of the Prime Soul King’s power, this is speculation. Yhwach being a part of the Prime Soul King is never stated as an absolute certainty. It’s not even hinted at as a strong possibility. Tokinda literally admits to not knowing this himself. How this is even supporting evidence in the first place is unclear when the person making the statement, that would bring this implication to begin with, isn’t sure of what he’s saying is true or false. For an upgrade as big as this one, using things that leave room for guesswork isn’t bombshell evidence.
On top of that, this would work against the upgrade more than for it. In order for this to support Low 2-C Yhwach, you have to admit to Reio’s power, even in small quantities, remaining as Low 2-C. And by doing that, this returns us to the inconsistency issues from the last downgrade thread of the Soul King’s power being countered by non-god tiers who have absolutely no business touching this tier of power.
That's an impossibility since he didn't have all of the power of the Soul King. There were pieces of the Soul King he hasn't absorbed. So it would be more fair to say he had all of the power of the Weakened Soul King, which he did. (Weakened Soul King obviously not being a term in the series itself, but something we use to differentiate it).
The former is more probable. At this time, nobody knew that Yhwach had absorbed the Soul King. Ganju could only be talking about it in reference to the natural collapse of everything.
Nowhere is it stated that the full power of the almighty Soul King is required to reverse the feat. Simply removing the preserving power of the Soul King is enough to reverse the feat.
Environmental Destruction and other Counters
The context would still make sense even with the prior interpretation. Soul Society being gone would mean that all three realms would be gone.
You seem to be ignoring that "Soul Society" means multiple different things. Not only can it mean the planet, or the dimension, but it could also mean the actual society that is Soul Society. The souls and Shinigami that make up the Soul Society. Yama's Bankai being able to kill them is just as plausible, if not more so, as his Bankai being able to destroy "the planet itself."
Flow of Souls
> This argument makes less sense than the prior. Yhwach gains dominion over the cycle after absorbing mimihagi, yet doesn't attempt to destroy anything till he absorbs the heart and ichigo's power. Instead, Yhwach acts as the sustaining force that the soul king was.
Because Yhwach changed his mind. He was just going to let everything collapse via the Flow of Souls without even attempting to absorb the Soul King. Then he absorbed the Soul King and took his place.
All characters are liars. That does not necessarily make the information dubious here.
Incorrect. The novel provides it.
Headcanon. This is not a great argument. It is just an assumption that maintaining the universal flow of souls automatically grants you the ability to wield all of those souls offensively. It is impossible to argue against headcanon.
Because Yhwach changed his mind. He was just going to let everything collapse via the Flow of Souls without even attempting to absorb the Soul King. Then he absorbed the Soul King and took his place.
All characters are liars. That does not necessarily make the information dubious here.
Incorrect. The novel provides it.
Headcanon. This is not a great argument. It is just an assumption that maintaining the universal flow of souls automatically grants you the ability to wield all of those souls offensively. It is impossible to argue against headcanon.
The Almighty and other issues
This is just laughable here, no offense. Never on this site do we take simple volume bonus art sketches as any kind of indicative canon portrayal of a feat, especially for one that never actually happens. Especially since this one is more symbolic in nature via the giant scales being used. This doesn't need much addressing, it’s not going to fly here.
This was already brought up and addressed in the downgrade thread for the god tiers. The Garganta isn’t infinite, and the vague endless statement isn’t changing anything from before.
First, Endless doesn’t get you to infinite. We don’t take endless as anything infinite and we’ve been here long enough to know this. To get infinite, you need “Infinite” straight up stated.
Second, as was also mentioned in the previous thread, this statement given for Garganta being “endless”, which isn’t even accepted on the site at the current moment, is hyperbole. Unless Aura can magically perceive astronomical cosmic sized distances, wandering around inside a large area inside Garganta does not whatsoever mean the location is legitimately endless, infinite or some expansively huge size in relation to her perspective.
This is like saying Gluttony’s stomach dimension from Fullmetal Alchemist is infinite because Edward and Envy wandered around inside of it for a few hours, and arrived at a similar conclusion to Aura’s. Which by the way, also isn’t accepted here for the exact same reasons.
TL;DR- Garganta isn’t infinite. The statement is hyperbole coming from someone who’s only reached that conclusion for wandering around inside of Garganta for some time and perceives it to be some expansive area from her point of view, who's incapable of seeing this from across astronomical distances like this. Even if it can be taken literally, endless still doesn’t mean infinite. The Garganta is finite in size.
Tokinda’s Statement on The Soul King Destroying / Reshaping The World
This gets its own section because a lot of context from the novels is being neglected.
To start with, this statement is extremely suspicious that this requires Low 2-C power, or grants it, if the likes of Ginjo could become the soul king. Is Ginjo Low 2-C now? Do we get Low 2-C Grimmjow and Candice now for the latters fighting Ginjo in the novels?
Even worse, the missing context from the novels surrounding this statement seem to suggest that this isn’t even a matter of strength or power in the first place. Why? Because of the Hogyoku and its similarities to the Reio Fragments being a factor in this. According to this same passage, the fragments of the Soul King have similar properties to the Hogyoku, which is explicitly reality warping for materializing the desires of those around itself that alters the world. Reio’s fragments when infused into humans bring about similar influences to what the Hogyoku brings, so it’s entirely reasonable to assert that Tokinda’s remark on “become the soul king and you can reshape or destroy the world as you wish” has to do with reality warping. Which makes it all the more reasonable if Ginjo, who is a Fullbringer with Hollow and Soul Reaper powers, can become a candidate to be Soul King.
The novels greatly support this as well with several passages even indicating that the Hogyoku’s reality warping capabilities can even take the place of the Soul King.
Along with everything else given, the Fragments of the Soul King are never implied to give any huge power boost anywhere close to his Prime self’s level. Ikomikidomoe, after absorbing a fragment of the Soul King, was completely and utterly one shotted by Kenpachi with incredible ease.
To start with, this statement is extremely suspicious that this requires Low 2-C power, or grants it, if the likes of Ginjo could become the soul king. Is Ginjo Low 2-C now? Do we get Low 2-C Grimmjow and Candice now for the latters fighting Ginjo in the novels?
Even worse, the missing context from the novels surrounding this statement seem to suggest that this isn’t even a matter of strength or power in the first place. Why? Because of the Hogyoku and its similarities to the Reio Fragments being a factor in this. According to this same passage, the fragments of the Soul King have similar properties to the Hogyoku, which is explicitly reality warping for materializing the desires of those around itself that alters the world. Reio’s fragments when infused into humans bring about similar influences to what the Hogyoku brings, so it’s entirely reasonable to assert that Tokinda’s remark on “become the soul king and you can reshape or destroy the world as you wish” has to do with reality warping. Which makes it all the more reasonable if Ginjo, who is a Fullbringer with Hollow and Soul Reaper powers, can become a candidate to be Soul King.
The novels greatly support this as well with several passages even indicating that the Hogyoku’s reality warping capabilities can even take the place of the Soul King.
- Kisuke created his specialized konpaku to cram a bunch of them together, inside of the Hogyoku, to take the place of the Soul King.
- According to Hisagi, when recalling what Tokinada said to him earlier, Urahara developed the Hogyoku to either create a Konpaku that's as powerful as Reio’s, or created it so that he could make any Soul Reaper have the same power as Reio and use their powers to support the world’s foundation, all so the Soul King would not need to be sacrificed to support it.
- Another passage from the novels, with Hisagi recalling a conversion between Urahara and Aura, mentioned that Ichigo being given a Hogyoku would affect the world and that Hikone would be turned into the Soul King using the Hogyoku as well.
Along with everything else given, the Fragments of the Soul King are never implied to give any huge power boost anywhere close to his Prime self’s level. Ikomikidomoe, after absorbing a fragment of the Soul King, was completely and utterly one shotted by Kenpachi with incredible ease.
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It is supported more so to be garganta because of Hueco Mundo. That realm does not have a connection to soul society or the world of the living. The boundary encompassed all the worlds, and the statement by tokinada gives the Implication what yhwach was doing would cover the whole scope of the original universe
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damage, i shall read your post and in respond within the following hours if that is fine
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There's no rush.
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I guess you forget the example from Senna, how Senna used the spirits
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We'd need some evidence that controlling the universal flow is the same as being able to consciosuly detonate every single soul to produce some kind of Universal explosion.
This also isn't something that would scale to normal statistics anyway, since it is using the energy of other individuals. Someone who can trigger a Universal bomb wouldn't get Universal Striking Strength or Universal Durability by default, for example.
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Souls or blanks whatever have some set energy, manipulating it and having a instance in the past of offensively using it as explosives deserves some recognition as AP....you can't just hand wave it away...
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False equivalence....
There is no metaphysical connection between a human and a bomb or some similarity to inverse energy system thats based on souls to warrant that kind of equivalence.
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I do have one quick response.
Under the premise pieces of a low 2-c being would still be low 2-c, wouldnt this be contradicted by the site treating wsk as "unknown". Part of the reason why i was saying its not a linear increase, its exponential
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and while i am a way at work, thoughts on the other parts of the op?
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I guess Iron Man doesn’t get a tier for his suit because it uses energy that comes from something else. We should also take away Naruto’s tiers with Kurama while we are at it.
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Way to ignore context.
I'm saying even if we granted the Soul King a hypothetical Universal rating for replicating the Senna feat, it wouldn't scale to his ordinary statistics. Just like we don't scale Iron Man's armor to Tony Stark himself.
Hence why we shouldn't assume that pieces of the Soul King are Low 2-C or magically grant Low 2-C boosts upon being absorbed. The fragments of the Soul King we see via Gerard, Mimihagi and Pernida showcase that well enough.
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If he can manipulate those souls, he needs to be physically durable enough to do so. Unlike Senna who commits suicide by doing so, WSK has been doing this for a million years. How, pray tell, would he not scale?
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Well I can see that this is going to go wonderfully lol
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Perhaps people should stop posting meaningless comments like these that drown out the other stuff. This is one of the reasons why controversial threads turn into staff only threads. So please refrain from such comments.
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I think Senna's feat is non-combat.
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- #189
give me at least 3 hours since im at work
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senna's feat is an energy feat
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I don't know why we're scaling souls at her, she just pushed the souls to do it, I mean, when you give a robot an order to explode and the robot explodes, would you scale to the energy that comes out of the robot's explosion?
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I never think we call all the pieces of soul king low 2C
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After the death of the soul king yes it seemed to happen spontaneously but then yhwach sucked the soul king and the earthquake shaking at all, the unification of the universes did not happen because yhwach decided to do it himself, which becomes proof that yhwach can unite the universes. Instead of being with the death of the soul king, he aimed to do it on his own by absorbing him
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Soul Reapers have shown ability to absorb them to regenerate and boost physicals...
Senna using them externally would still scale..those things act like sentient bags of aura or energy.....a in-verse energy system at that.
Denying it is like saying that since DB characters using aura externally shouldn't scale...thats ridiculous.
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im not scaling the souls to her. im scaling charatcers above the feat
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How can it be measured whether garganta is infinite or not? So what if he does and says "infinite" can be infinite for you? Garganta is shown as a structure surrounding universes, there is no contradiction in the fact that a structure that includes universes and more is infinite. I wonder if there are Universes in the belly of the character in fmab
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Then it's a small question, would you scale the person who only keeps the beings in regularity, to the person who can trigger the beings?
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Wait so the Garganta that’s accepted as Low 2-C already which makes it an infinite structure is not infinite?
How does that work again?
How does that work again?
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Uh, no? A Low 2-C structure is not automatically infinite in size here.
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It is being brought into question.
- Status
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