- 5,668
- 4,897
Over 900 years, he shall recover his heartbeat. Over 90 years, he shall recover his intellect. Over 9 years, he shall recover his power. And over 9 days, he shall recover the world.
Hello to all. There was a much smaller thread that was going to be posted, but I and arc felt it was a bit too small and didn't cover all possible aspects/counters to the feat that will be discussed here, so i made this version last night. Apologies.
Introduction
I want to note that this thread was made with the help/information of multiple people that are knowledgeable in Bleach, and its aim is to find a solution for the scaling.
Please, read everything before actually commenting.
Starting with this thread, where by using both raws and official translation it was confirmed that Reio's Universal Feat was possible not with The Almighty as an all-seeing ability, but because he had an almighty (great) power that transcended everything.
For cosmology refer to this and the original upgrade thread:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Cyberblader9/Sandbox3
Yhwach’s Merge Feat
In chapter 684, after absorbing a massive quantity of energy (more on that later), Yhwach releases his power and spreads it out, intending to merge The World of the Living, Soul Society, and Hueco Mundo in one.
The manga and Novels give context as to what this pertains to:
Yhwach states his goal was to merge the worlds as one, creating one where life and death are one.
Due to the sheer amount of information we have to go over, each section has been divided as a spoiler box
Context provided by Novels
Quotes
"At first, Ginjo had thought the religious organization was related to the Quincies and was indicating the new king would be Yhwach. However, he had heard Yhwach’s goal was not to rule over the three worlds but to remove the boundary itself between the worlds and return everything to primordial soup."
Meanwhile, Tokinada responded to Nelliel with a serious, unsmiling expression. “How rude of me. However, the truth is that I am simply showing my gratitude toward Ichigo Kurosaki. Had he not defeated Yhwach, the boundaries between the three worlds would have disappeared and we would have returned to a universe in which there would be no cycling of konpaku, wouldn’t we? Such an action would have reduced the Soul Society’s history to naught. I would like to make this a universe where he receives commendation befitting his achievement of preventing that occurrence.”
We learn from the novels that essentially what Yhwach was going to do was reverse the Prime Soul King’s cosmology restructure, which is affirmed by Tokinada. We are told twice this also involves destroying the Boundary.
What is the Boundary?
“Before the world took on its current form… In a chaotic place where there was no border between life and death, there was an original protector who stood between the Hollows and humans for the first time. The Quincies, the Soul Reapers, and also the Fullbringers…it could be said that he is the ancestor of them all.” Snickering, Tokinada continued. “He was a Quincy and also at the same time a Soul Reaper, and also just a normal person bearing countless abilities like a Fullbringer. He was the symbol of hope who ruled over all in the chaotic world.” Then, as a smile filled with noticeable pleasure warped his face, he told Hisagi of the dark side of the Soul Society. “These three realms were created by sacrificing that man who was both a devil and a savior…"The cycle of the world would stop, ending all retrogression and evolution, imprisoning it in chains. In the circumstance where life was forced into stagnation, there was, ironically, a world with no boundary between life and death. It may have resembled the form of the world before the Soul Society had been born.
The Boundary was created when prime Soul King restructured the Cosmology. It keeps life and death separate, and divides the realms.
Contextually, the boundary serves as being the Garganta. This is supported by the statement that Garganta would have gone due to the events of the latter half of the Quincy War (more on that later), and is consistent with the novels revealing the quakes from the world collapses from Reio’s death was destroying the Boundary:
- Without the boundary, the cosmology will collapse as primordial soup. This is consistent with the statement that the Garganta would be gone if the soul king died, since it stabilizes the worlds and its death meant the collapse of everything.
- CFYOW II mentions that the earthquake nearly destroyed the boundaries, which when combined with Ganju’s statement on the Garganta adds further credence to the Garganta being that boundary. As without Reio, there can be no Garganta, and without Reio the boundary began to collapse.
Garganta is the dimension that houses all the dimensions in Bleach. It is the space between all dimensions and exists around them all. The real universe(s) lies inside of it alongside all the other dimensions.
it is stated that Garganta serves as a protection for Kyogoku (Reishi space dimensions within it), meaning Garganta serves to protect dimensions, which is the purpose of the boundary in this scenario
For a deeper look at the cosmology, refer to this sandbox.
We are also told that portals through garganta are described that they tear the Fabric that keeps dimensions apart (Referring to garganta).
Essentially, Yhwach was going to destroy the entire Bleach cosmos and then reform it to eliminate the cycle of life and death, reversing what the Soul King originally did. This is confirmed twice above regarding the statements that he was going to destroy the boundary, which is the garganta.
The end sketches from chapter 675 to 684 shows us this destruction process.
We see planets breaking apart, and the cosmology destroyed.
This is done via raw energy, as shown in chapter 684. The process only ceased due to Yhwach being power nulled by an arrow that was essentially his kryptonite.
Is this Consistent for Yhwach?
Narrative implications
After the soul king had completed the task of splitting the cosmology and creating the boundary, he was horribly depowered by the 5 families removing his organs and limbs. This means most likely recombining his parts would be an exponential boost, rather than linear.Yhwach goes on to absorb his main body, his arm, and his heart (Gerard). He also absorbs a massive portion of ichigo’s power. Ichigo later on would be declared viable as a soul king candidate (the main plan if Yhwach hadn’t worked out), and was directly compared to the soul king. He was so full of power he declared the Quincies no longer useful, who previously he had worked so hard to create to help fulfill his goal. It was only at this apex of power that Yhwach was convinced he could do the merge, and we are shown this to be true in chapter 684.
More importantly, Yhwach was going to restructure life and death in the system, which was only possible previously by a full power soul king. Narratively, it makes sense for him to be at least close to that degree of power, and he is even stated to have all the power of the soul king. While he had 2 organs of the soul king, and most of Ichigo’s power, he himself was either born from a full power soul king (who wasn't nerfed) or is a piece himself.
In essence Yhwach received an exponential boost from all of these absorptions. It should be noted he absorbed power from some of the stronger soul king fragments as well, as smaller fragments used for Hikone do not remotely compare in power (Were weaker than shikai Kenpachi). And narratively for his plan to even work, he has to be comparable to his father in order to restructure the system. So the notion that his power jumped to such a degree isn't far fetched in the slightest given this context.
It is also noted that even in death, Yhwach had a vast amount of energy left over, which is also the reason the current cosmology has not collapsed.
All of this is consistent with Tokinada stating the soul king can create and destroy the world (contextually means the cosmology as that was his goal with Hikone).
Askin
Here Askin says: 世界を3つも潰してその後に何かを創るうとしてるThis translates to “Crushing 3 sekai and afterwards constructing something else” where the 3 sekai in question are World of the Living, Soul Society, and Hueco Mundo. Askin referring to Yhwach’s plan, we know Askin is a reliable source as he bore witness to Yhwach consuming Reio and is part of the Elite Stern Ritter.
For the context for the usage of sekai here, refer to here:
User blog:Cyberblader9/The Bleach Cosmology#Sekai
Ganju's statement
Ganju says, "if we lose, Garganta will be gone too!!"This could be either in reference to Soul King's death triggering its destruction, or the destruction of it in regards to Yhwach's plans. While the former is probable, the soul king had died at this time, and Yhwach had become the new soul king. Ganju should be at least aware of the prior trembling, which would indicate Reio's death, so the latter is probable as well.
As for his credibility:
- Ganju is a Shiba, a member of one of the Noble Houses within Bleach that despite being exiled from nobility, still works directly with Squad Zero. Throughout CFYOW we discover that in terms of who's qualified to speak on the machinations of the Soul King it goes: Nobility (they have access to a special library and have been historically the closest to the Soul King and Squad Zero), Captains and certain seated officers (were divulged information due to being directly in the war and weren't given any censored information regarding the war), and finally commoners and fodder Shinigami (were informed of a falsified version of the events of the war). Due to Ganju being of nobility and being in direct contact with Squad Zero, he is one of the more credible sources for receiving information involving the Soul King.
- When Ganju makes his claim he is in the presence of Yoruichi, as she was launched with them to Reiokyu. Yoruichi is a member of the Shihoin Noble family and closest friend (debatably romantic partner) of Kisuke. Kisuke is someone who we discover at the end of the Deicide chapters is aware of the Soul King and its purpose. This is important because Yoruichi being a non-exiled royal family member and someone who works directly with Kisuke would be even more qualified (if not one of the most qualified) individuals to comment on the nature of the Soul King, and she does not interrupt or contradict Ganju. Silence is acquiescence and Yoruichi not correcting Ganju is equivalent to silent affirmation of Ganju's statement.
- Ichigo being someone well adept at sensory capabilities since the beginning of the series (he learned the spirit ribbon search on his first try) doesn't question the claims either, and comments that the fight will be dangerous as if to support Ganju's notion.
Reio’s Power
As stated above in the narrative section, it is noted Yhwach had ALL of Soul King’s power. This again makes sense, since he had absorbed several pieces of the soul and most of Ichigo’s power. We are not scaling him to a weakened soul king who is currently listed as unknown, but rather to Prime Soul King (or comparable to) as he is reversing his feat.Environmental Destruction and other Counters
Due to Yhwach’s statement here as to how Weakened Soul king works in conjunction with the Soul Society, some interpret it to mean that destroying the Soul Society (Planet/realm) alone is sufficient to cause the rest of the cosmology/other worlds to collapse.
There are issues with this interpretation:
First is the sentence itself and the backing by manga visuals:
"Now that it (the Soul King) is gone, not just Soul Society, but all that is connected to it, the Dangai, Hueco Mundo and the World of the Living it will all collapse."
However the sentence can be read as:
"Now that it (the Soul King) is gone, not just Soul Society, but all that is connected to it (the Soul King), the Dangai, Hueco Mundo and the World of the Living it will all collapse."
This version would make sense visually and contextually. Ichibe tells us if reio dies all three realms would be gone.
Visually the collapse features all three realms collapsing at once, not just soul soul society first, and most Importantly shows Hueco Mundo collapsing. Hueco Mundo is not connected to Soul Society, and can only be accessed via garganta usage. It also existed before Soul Society (which was made during the restructure by Reio), having been made from reishi sand made from hollows by the soul king. The notion that destroying only soul society would destroy Hueco Mundo is unsupported by canon material. Likewise, the statements priorly shown regarding the destruction of the boundary further demonstrates that simply killing off soul society is insufficient to cause a complete collapse.
Another issue is narrative plot holes. If just destroying the soul society (planet) was needed, yhwach could have used yamamoto’s bankai to do so. If it is argued it means the whole realm is needed, that would still be a universal feat, given the Soul society is currently accepted to be a full universe.
This again runs into the issue that soul society does not have a symbiotic connection to hueco mundo, and it collapsing alongside the world of the living is only ever mentioned as the flow of souls doing that. Even within the beginning of the Quincy War Arc, we are told it is the loss of souls that can cause collapse, not Soul Society as a location being destroyed.
As such, the argument that Yhwach was going to cause the cosmology merge via environmental destruction (regarding just busting soul society) cannot narratively work in verse.
There are issues with this interpretation:
First is the sentence itself and the backing by manga visuals:
"Now that it (the Soul King) is gone, not just Soul Society, but all that is connected to it, the Dangai, Hueco Mundo and the World of the Living it will all collapse."
However the sentence can be read as:
"Now that it (the Soul King) is gone, not just Soul Society, but all that is connected to it (the Soul King), the Dangai, Hueco Mundo and the World of the Living it will all collapse."
This version would make sense visually and contextually. Ichibe tells us if reio dies all three realms would be gone.
Visually the collapse features all three realms collapsing at once, not just soul soul society first, and most Importantly shows Hueco Mundo collapsing. Hueco Mundo is not connected to Soul Society, and can only be accessed via garganta usage. It also existed before Soul Society (which was made during the restructure by Reio), having been made from reishi sand made from hollows by the soul king. The notion that destroying only soul society would destroy Hueco Mundo is unsupported by canon material. Likewise, the statements priorly shown regarding the destruction of the boundary further demonstrates that simply killing off soul society is insufficient to cause a complete collapse.
Another issue is narrative plot holes. If just destroying the soul society (planet) was needed, yhwach could have used yamamoto’s bankai to do so. If it is argued it means the whole realm is needed, that would still be a universal feat, given the Soul society is currently accepted to be a full universe.
This again runs into the issue that soul society does not have a symbiotic connection to hueco mundo, and it collapsing alongside the world of the living is only ever mentioned as the flow of souls doing that. Even within the beginning of the Quincy War Arc, we are told it is the loss of souls that can cause collapse, not Soul Society as a location being destroyed.
As such, the argument that Yhwach was going to cause the cosmology merge via environmental destruction (regarding just busting soul society) cannot narratively work in verse.
Flow of Souls
This argument makes less sense than the prior. Yhwach gains dominion over the cycle after absorbing mimihagi, yet doesn't attempt to destroy anything till he absorbs the heart and ichigo's power. Instead, Yhwach acts as the sustaining force that the soul king was.
It should be noted that the line from CFYOW regarding the relationship between the soul king and the cycle is dubious, given we are informed the characters relaying this information were lying.
As noted above as well, the manga states Reio stabilizes soul society (and the other realms connected to him). It does not have a direct statement saying he maintains the flow.
It should be noted that if the possibly dubious statement regarding Reio and The Flow is used, it doesnt change the issues.
Here is the statement:
“The Soul King is, in practical terms, the linchpin of the world, the cornerstone that controls the universal flow of konpaku. If the Soul King were to disappear, the three worlds—the Soul Society, the world of the living, and Hueco Mundo—would likely crumble immediately.”
We are told Reio (in reference to weakened reio, who Yhwach absolutely scales to, since he absorbed his power and function) controls the flow.
The flow has the power to destroy the universe (Rukia statement in the last section), and is stated to be able to threaten the stars (Kakyo wanted to become a soul reaper to uphold the flow and protect the stars she loved so much).
We know from Memories of Nobody that souls have power, as Blanks (which are souls) can be used for explosions by releasing their energy. This can even be done by shinigami, who can use them to heal their bodies and physically become stronger. As the chief regulator of the entire universal cycle, who not only maintains but controls it, Reio would be easily able to use the cycle offensively, which yhwach would be to do as well. He would still have universal ap regardless, as reio passively maintains the flow if we go with this interpretation.
This however is not what happened. We are told and shown the feat as being solely via his power alone, shown his black energy he uses for attacks.
So the notion it has anything to do with the flow of souls is not supported, and would still give peak Yhwach universal ap anyway.
It should be noted that the line from CFYOW regarding the relationship between the soul king and the cycle is dubious, given we are informed the characters relaying this information were lying.
As noted above as well, the manga states Reio stabilizes soul society (and the other realms connected to him). It does not have a direct statement saying he maintains the flow.
It should be noted that if the possibly dubious statement regarding Reio and The Flow is used, it doesnt change the issues.
Here is the statement:
“The Soul King is, in practical terms, the linchpin of the world, the cornerstone that controls the universal flow of konpaku. If the Soul King were to disappear, the three worlds—the Soul Society, the world of the living, and Hueco Mundo—would likely crumble immediately.”
We are told Reio (in reference to weakened reio, who Yhwach absolutely scales to, since he absorbed his power and function) controls the flow.
The flow has the power to destroy the universe (Rukia statement in the last section), and is stated to be able to threaten the stars (Kakyo wanted to become a soul reaper to uphold the flow and protect the stars she loved so much).
We know from Memories of Nobody that souls have power, as Blanks (which are souls) can be used for explosions by releasing their energy. This can even be done by shinigami, who can use them to heal their bodies and physically become stronger. As the chief regulator of the entire universal cycle, who not only maintains but controls it, Reio would be easily able to use the cycle offensively, which yhwach would be to do as well. He would still have universal ap regardless, as reio passively maintains the flow if we go with this interpretation.
This however is not what happened. We are told and shown the feat as being solely via his power alone, shown his black energy he uses for attacks.
So the notion it has anything to do with the flow of souls is not supported, and would still give peak Yhwach universal ap anyway.
The Almighty and other issues
As discussed here, the almighty does not have the ability to affect the cosmology, nor has it displayed the destructive capacity to do so.
The almighty itself is the ability to jump to different futures, which allows Yhwach to intervene with them. It gives a precognition alongside fate manipulation. It does not, however, give the ability to create or destroy the boundary of the worlds which divides life and death.
So this counter holds no weight.
The end chapter sketches provide a plethora of insight into Kubo’s mindset and are always directly connected to what is currently going on with the current state of the manga (the end chapter sketch of Uryu saving the Arrancar girl was even adapted into the anime, for example).
The end sketches from chapter 675 to 684 shows us this destruction process, showing the end of the cosmology.
Tokinada also stated that the soul king could both make and create the world (contextually means the cosmology as that was his goal with Hikone).
At the lowest end it would Multi Galaxy (assuming only Soul Society is being directly affected, which as explained above isn't supported) considering the very small time frame this could happen in. It would be higher since it is affecting the entire cosmology.
There are 3 accepted universal spaces (the realms). Given the very short implied time frame, and the size of the area he would affect, I propose 3-a. I'll add one more thing here:
Garganta (and the cosmology) was accepted as a low 2-c structure in the original upgrade thread, with Prime reio scaling from it in the 3a to low 2-c range.
See here for more info
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System#2-C:_Low_Multiverse_level
Low 2-C | Universe level+: Characters who are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums of a universal scale
In this case we have yhwach destroying a low 2-c construct, which wouldn’t require a timeframe.
Urahara reaffirms this with the notion that spiritual energy correlates to physicality.
We are shown that your body will pop if it cannot contain your power, such as kenpachi’s bankai. Yhwach never occurs this, as his durability has to be relative to his ap.
The silver arrow has no anti feats, was most likely used via the antithesis given that ability’s build up and the almighty’s failure to see it, and was literally Yhwach’s kryptonite. It is not a valid anti feat for his durability.
As for Ichigo killing him twice, that gets us into scaling.
The almighty itself is the ability to jump to different futures, which allows Yhwach to intervene with them. It gives a precognition alongside fate manipulation. It does not, however, give the ability to create or destroy the boundary of the worlds which divides life and death.
So this counter holds no weight.
Timeframe
The feat is meant to be rather quick, given the warnings we are given in the novels of what would happen if Ichigo had failed. The novels explicitly state if Ichigo had failed in that fight, the cosmology would be back in its old state, making it anew to be what it was like pre reio.The end chapter sketches provide a plethora of insight into Kubo’s mindset and are always directly connected to what is currently going on with the current state of the manga (the end chapter sketch of Uryu saving the Arrancar girl was even adapted into the anime, for example).
The end sketches from chapter 675 to 684 shows us this destruction process, showing the end of the cosmology.
Tokinada also stated that the soul king could both make and create the world (contextually means the cosmology as that was his goal with Hikone).
At the lowest end it would Multi Galaxy (assuming only Soul Society is being directly affected, which as explained above isn't supported) considering the very small time frame this could happen in. It would be higher since it is affecting the entire cosmology.
There are 3 accepted universal spaces (the realms). Given the very short implied time frame, and the size of the area he would affect, I propose 3-a. I'll add one more thing here:
Garganta (and the cosmology) was accepted as a low 2-c structure in the original upgrade thread, with Prime reio scaling from it in the 3a to low 2-c range.
See here for more info
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System#2-C:_Low_Multiverse_level
Low 2-C | Universe level+: Characters who are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums of a universal scale
In this case we have yhwach destroying a low 2-c construct, which wouldn’t require a timeframe.
What if Garganta isn't the boundary
I think enough evidence has been provided to prove it is. Even if it weren't, the feat would still be at least universal, given Tokinada’s statement that the universe would be the old one, and we are told the cosmology would be turned to primordial soup (refer to beginning of the op for both scan)His durability
In Bleach is also clearly explained, that your physical body needs to be strong enough to sustain your own spiritual pressure, even the spiritual pressure you leak is basically your own passive durability, and Yhwach never had a problem with that.Urahara reaffirms this with the notion that spiritual energy correlates to physicality.
We are shown that your body will pop if it cannot contain your power, such as kenpachi’s bankai. Yhwach never occurs this, as his durability has to be relative to his ap.
What about Yhwach’s anti feats
Most of his supposed anti feats are before he gets his final exponential amp, so they don't affect his feat. The “eyeballs” were just a small torrent of weakened reio’s own power, and don't correlate in any way as anti feat to peak Yhwach.The silver arrow has no anti feats, was most likely used via the antithesis given that ability’s build up and the almighty’s failure to see it, and was literally Yhwach’s kryptonite. It is not a valid anti feat for his durability.
As for Ichigo killing him twice, that gets us into scaling.
Scaling
We are scaling only Ichigo and possibly Aizen to Peak Yhwach.
There a few ways to look at this:
Aizen is shown to be able to survive blasts and hits from Yhwach, and kyoko suigetse is not fully broken from the almighty.
While he does get severely injured later on, Yhwach ultimately chooses to absorb him to deal with him. Aizen should at least be somewhat comparable.
As for Ichigo, after having most of his power stolen his bankai is made so that it was never broken and is fixed. It is shown to have comparable Ap to Yhwach’s durability, and ichigo tanked an attack from him. The almighty fails to completely break the restored blade on two occasions.
Note: Part of this sequence may be due to kyoka suigetsu.
After regaining his power from the nulling (silver arrow), Yhwach breaks the outer shell of Ichigo’s bankai, revealing a “true” zangetsu beneath it. This blade proves strong enough to cleave Yhwach in two without getsuga tensho.
Overall, post bankai restoral ichigo has better feats than the ichigo who fought yhwach previously. Even with his full power and hollow horn, he was trashed and left half dead by yhwach prior. Given the nature of the restoral, and having much better feats alongside a “true” zangetsu, my proposal is anew key for ichigo for post restoral. He will only scale to yhwach in this key alone.
Another option is for Yhwach to scale to this feat in ap in this state:
While there is no confirmation this is a transformation per say, Yhwach enters this state for the first time on panel after rewriting his death. It is with this state he tries the merge feat. Aizen was swiftly absorbed by this state. Ichigo struggles against it, but his blade did somewhat tank an almighty usage and true zangetsu killed Yhwach.
Or
Yhwach gets another key for the state shown above, scales only in that state, and Ichigo scales in the new key only. Aizen would not scale, as he would have no feats against this state of Yhwach.
If need be, Aizen can be a likely/possibly for the first option, considering the damage he did sustain in the fight.
There a few ways to look at this:
Aizen is shown to be able to survive blasts and hits from Yhwach, and kyoko suigetse is not fully broken from the almighty.
While he does get severely injured later on, Yhwach ultimately chooses to absorb him to deal with him. Aizen should at least be somewhat comparable.
As for Ichigo, after having most of his power stolen his bankai is made so that it was never broken and is fixed. It is shown to have comparable Ap to Yhwach’s durability, and ichigo tanked an attack from him. The almighty fails to completely break the restored blade on two occasions.
Note: Part of this sequence may be due to kyoka suigetsu.
After regaining his power from the nulling (silver arrow), Yhwach breaks the outer shell of Ichigo’s bankai, revealing a “true” zangetsu beneath it. This blade proves strong enough to cleave Yhwach in two without getsuga tensho.
Overall, post bankai restoral ichigo has better feats than the ichigo who fought yhwach previously. Even with his full power and hollow horn, he was trashed and left half dead by yhwach prior. Given the nature of the restoral, and having much better feats alongside a “true” zangetsu, my proposal is anew key for ichigo for post restoral. He will only scale to yhwach in this key alone.
Another option is for Yhwach to scale to this feat in ap in this state:
While there is no confirmation this is a transformation per say, Yhwach enters this state for the first time on panel after rewriting his death. It is with this state he tries the merge feat. Aizen was swiftly absorbed by this state. Ichigo struggles against it, but his blade did somewhat tank an almighty usage and true zangetsu killed Yhwach.
Proposals:
Either Yhwach scales to the merge in his last key, and as a result Ichigo gets a new key where he scales and aizen would scale in his last keyOr
Yhwach gets another key for the state shown above, scales only in that state, and Ichigo scales in the new key only. Aizen would not scale, as he would have no feats against this state of Yhwach.
If need be, Aizen can be a likely/possibly for the first option, considering the damage he did sustain in the fight.
Head Canon?
It may come across as off-putting to suggest Ichigo having his Bankai repaired is exponentially stronger than what he was prior. Well it is true that he had just had 2/3s of his power robbed from him (which according to the novels would return a while later) and that he had not been properly healed, upon the restore all of this bankai Ichigo proceeds to his display far better feats than what he had shown against Yhwach prior. Disregarding the argument for the AP of Yhwach being argued in this threat for a moment, the version of Yhwach that Ichigo kills twice in chapter 683 and 684 is still far stronger than the one that ultimately defeated him prior.
The only way to rationalize this and argue for pre-bankai restoral, is to argue that his hollow horn is an exponential multiplier, not linear at ALL, and that Yhwach did Universal amounts of damage with the Almighty. Considering we cannot argue weakened soul king is 3a/low 2-c via stabilization, we run into an issue here.
Alternatively the solution to this would be something akin to:
1. Go with my proposal above of using post restoral Bankai Ichigo. His massive power jump can be attributed to the repair, which may have led to a buff, which is supported by his on panel feats.
2. Scale weakened Soul King to 3a/ Low 2-c via the statement from Tokinada that the soul King could destroy the cosmology (you can argue that in context this is more so for a soul King candidate which would be closer in power to WSK). You can also go with the previously established possible boost from the flow of souls if you buy SK's control of it to be legit, in which case hypothetically WSK could be this tier, alongside any soul king replacement. (Refer the flow of Souls section in counter arguments for more details)
3. Argue that because he also absorbed mimihagi, and is himself either a fragment of the Soul king or was born to a non-nurfed version of him, Yhwach received an exponential boost from WSK + Mimihagi Alone.
Preferably I would like to stick with a post restoral key, but I'm willing to compromise if this gets contested. We will need to discuss in detail what we should do in regards to Ichigo.
The only way to rationalize this and argue for pre-bankai restoral, is to argue that his hollow horn is an exponential multiplier, not linear at ALL, and that Yhwach did Universal amounts of damage with the Almighty. Considering we cannot argue weakened soul king is 3a/low 2-c via stabilization, we run into an issue here.
Alternatively the solution to this would be something akin to:
1. Go with my proposal above of using post restoral Bankai Ichigo. His massive power jump can be attributed to the repair, which may have led to a buff, which is supported by his on panel feats.
2. Scale weakened Soul King to 3a/ Low 2-c via the statement from Tokinada that the soul King could destroy the cosmology (you can argue that in context this is more so for a soul King candidate which would be closer in power to WSK). You can also go with the previously established possible boost from the flow of souls if you buy SK's control of it to be legit, in which case hypothetically WSK could be this tier, alongside any soul king replacement. (Refer the flow of Souls section in counter arguments for more details)
3. Argue that because he also absorbed mimihagi, and is himself either a fragment of the Soul king or was born to a non-nurfed version of him, Yhwach received an exponential boost from WSK + Mimihagi Alone.
Preferably I would like to stick with a post restoral key, but I'm willing to compromise if this gets contested. We will need to discuss in detail what we should do in regards to Ichigo.
Planetary
At the absolute lowest end you can argue for this feat, it sits at Planetary for the destruction of three planets (if you go with that interpretation). This would be consistent with Senna's small planet+ feat, which would frankly scale well below the output of Peak Yhwach (Senna’s feat is done via a small portion of the soul cycle. Yhwach is stated to have Reio’s full power and is narratively on the level of prime soul king, who is above everything else in the verse.)
Conclusion
After reaching his peak in power, Yhwach had the power to physically destroy Garganta and the Bleach Cosmos, and then remake everything as the old universe where life and death were one. This is consistent with Prime Soul King's universe restructure and the narrative support for Yhwach being on or near his level, alongside Tokinada's statement that the soul king can both create and destroy the world/universe (Yhwach was also going to recreate the old system). Ganju also possibly acts as supporting evidence to this.
Merely letting the cosmology collapse ended up not being what Yhwach wanted when the soul king died (most likely due to not setting the cosmology exactly as Yhwach wanted), thus he decided to become the Soul king himself, then absorb enough power to perform the merge himself in chapter 684. As such, Yhwach's attack potency would scale to the Cosmology itself. Ichigo and Aizen need to be discussed in how they scale.
We are not scaling weakened soul king, orihime, or mimihagi to this.
Final proposal for Yhwach’s last key (or the weird eye form mentioned above) is
Post-Power Absorption: At least Planet Level likely/possibly Universe to Universal+ level
This is done as to compromise on any scaling issues, despite the length this crt is to do deal with previous issues from other threads.
An idea for Ichigo and Aizen is:
Ichigo: At least Planet Level likely/possibly Universe to Universal+ level with Restored Bankai
Aizen: At least Planet Level likely/possibly Universe to Universal+ level
Merely letting the cosmology collapse ended up not being what Yhwach wanted when the soul king died (most likely due to not setting the cosmology exactly as Yhwach wanted), thus he decided to become the Soul king himself, then absorb enough power to perform the merge himself in chapter 684. As such, Yhwach's attack potency would scale to the Cosmology itself. Ichigo and Aizen need to be discussed in how they scale.
We are not scaling weakened soul king, orihime, or mimihagi to this.
Final proposal for Yhwach’s last key (or the weird eye form mentioned above) is
Post-Power Absorption: At least Planet Level likely/possibly Universe to Universal+ level
This is done as to compromise on any scaling issues, despite the length this crt is to do deal with previous issues from other threads.
An idea for Ichigo and Aizen is:
Ichigo: At least Planet Level likely/possibly Universe to Universal+ level with Restored Bankai
Aizen: At least Planet Level likely/possibly Universe to Universal+ level
Extra:
While I'm not sure I believe this, one interpretation of the Senna feat is the following:
Senna actually supports this even more, when Soul Society and the Living world were in point of collapse, what we see are 2 Dark Red spheres that doesn't really look to be just planets but the realms themselves, planet earth look like this from space, given also how the cosmology is structured, it is highly probable Senna feat is actually Universal from stopping the collapse of 2 universes.
Would also like to add this given by a friend, in regards to the power jump for the three proposed characters in this crt:
“How such a jump in power was possible? Well, there is really nothing that contradicts it in terms of evidence and explanation given in this post; their strength is proportional to what Kubo wanted Yhwach to be, a godlike being that can change the cosmos, the final fight was done by just by 3 individuals which are also fully transcendental being, Kubo wanted to explain how transcendental being are so superior to normal shinigami to be treated as Higher Dimensional, not in a literal way, but the idea of them being completely on another level to normal shinigami is actually pretty clear.
I believe that the Lore of Bleach, explaining how the Reio came into being from a primordial chaos with so great power to create a new cosmos even bringing into reality life and death, actually supports it.”
Lastly, Mugetsu has a statement that may allow it to upscale from Senna’s feat:
Mugetsu is referred to as “the ultimate move” in regards to anything seen thus far (Up to Aizen’s defeat). This would by virtue include Senna’s explosion feat, since it happened well before Mugetsu was shown:
となる 究極の技。meaning “This is the ultimate technique”
Reddit translates this as:
"The ultimate move given by his father! A victory at the cost of the lost of his powers": Ichigo Isshin are in the in-between world in order to learn the supreme move wich is the Ultimate Getsuga Tenshô. in this space denser than thee external world , they have a lot of time ahead.”
Mugetsu being small planet may not be far fetched, as both dangai ichigo and hogyoku Aizen were considered transcendental beings who surpassed the limitations of both shinigami and hollow (so should be well above bankai yamamoto) and mugetsu was still considered a whole other tier than Hogyoku Aizen.
Translation for aizen scan above:
全てを超越したその姿は、死神でも虚でもない、異形の姿だ った。
The figure transcending everything isn’t like a Shinigami or Hollow, the figure is fantastic/grotesque.
If accepted, we then discuss who scales.
Senna actually supports this even more, when Soul Society and the Living world were in point of collapse, what we see are 2 Dark Red spheres that doesn't really look to be just planets but the realms themselves, planet earth look like this from space, given also how the cosmology is structured, it is highly probable Senna feat is actually Universal from stopping the collapse of 2 universes.
Would also like to add this given by a friend, in regards to the power jump for the three proposed characters in this crt:
“How such a jump in power was possible? Well, there is really nothing that contradicts it in terms of evidence and explanation given in this post; their strength is proportional to what Kubo wanted Yhwach to be, a godlike being that can change the cosmos, the final fight was done by just by 3 individuals which are also fully transcendental being, Kubo wanted to explain how transcendental being are so superior to normal shinigami to be treated as Higher Dimensional, not in a literal way, but the idea of them being completely on another level to normal shinigami is actually pretty clear.
I believe that the Lore of Bleach, explaining how the Reio came into being from a primordial chaos with so great power to create a new cosmos even bringing into reality life and death, actually supports it.”
Lastly, Mugetsu has a statement that may allow it to upscale from Senna’s feat:
Mugetsu is referred to as “the ultimate move” in regards to anything seen thus far (Up to Aizen’s defeat). This would by virtue include Senna’s explosion feat, since it happened well before Mugetsu was shown:
となる 究極の技。meaning “This is the ultimate technique”
Reddit translates this as:
"The ultimate move given by his father! A victory at the cost of the lost of his powers": Ichigo Isshin are in the in-between world in order to learn the supreme move wich is the Ultimate Getsuga Tenshô. in this space denser than thee external world , they have a lot of time ahead.”
Mugetsu being small planet may not be far fetched, as both dangai ichigo and hogyoku Aizen were considered transcendental beings who surpassed the limitations of both shinigami and hollow (so should be well above bankai yamamoto) and mugetsu was still considered a whole other tier than Hogyoku Aizen.
Translation for aizen scan above:
全てを超越したその姿は、死神でも虚でもない、異形の姿だ った。
The figure transcending everything isn’t like a Shinigami or Hollow, the figure is fantastic/grotesque.
If accepted, we then discuss who scales.
Thanks for reading
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