Undertale downgrades

[Antvasima]

So what is the consensus here?

 

[Read_this_post]

Well. Once the real cal howard descends from the heavens and blesses us with his glorious summary, it should be safe to change the tiers if he approves. Then mid godly and ae can be focused on.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Flowey: Yeah. Complete agreement with you there.

Asriel: Still disagreeing. It's apparent that Azzy was supposed to be the endgame problem, the big bad. The stats are bullcrap of course but it's still supporting the implication that Asriel with 7 souls is superior to Chara, especially given Chara doesn't have 7 souls.

Abstract removal also has my agreement. Not only is it vague, but we give it a good type of abstraction with that vagueness.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation. The accepted parts can probably be applied then.

 

[Read_this_post]

@The real doggo howard Im guessing that you mean flowey mentioning that he has a plan to become stronger than chara with the seven souls?

Im not sure if that would even scale to asriels base since he is still holding back in that form massively. Though I suppose it could be added on angel deaths explanation with something like "Hinted by flowey to be stronger than chara, although it is unknown whether or not they were truly referring to there "absolute""

 

[FloweryAlex]

Chara with zero souls was proving to be superior to Flowey with six, and Asriel being the big bad is... baseless. I agree that Asriel at full power scales because he plain claimed that he would reset everything, sure, but base Asriel definitely not.


Still, if the following were to be opened I could change them:

Flowey

Chara

Frisk (Scales to Flowey in AP)

 

[Read_this_post]

Annoying Dog as well. I can work on asriel and floweys explanations.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you plan to change? Not anything that has not been accepted I hope.

 

[Read_this_post]

@Antvasima I suppose it depends on whether base form asriel should scale. Angel death scaling seems mostly agreed apon

 

[FloweryAlex]

Well, Cal didn't really elaborate on Asriel, so until then I feel the ohers should be the ones updated.

 

[Read_this_post]

Asriels explanations would need to be changed since most of it is scaling from flowey. Id rather see what cal thinks about base form asriel (and my response) before doing anything drastic.

 

[Andytrenom]

I personally don't believe Asriel is inferior to Chara but I do admit that there's no solid evidence confirming this. Asriel being the endgame problem also isn't a well substantiated claim when Genocide could easily be considered as being after pacifist or at least it's not established as coming before pacifist afaik.

And regardless, I don't see why this type of "there are different level of threats with different levels of power" scaling would begin to prove Asriel's superiority when Charm isn't even someone you fights against, who literally performs the most permanent damage to the world any character in UT has and even technically wins. I find it doubtful that Asriel is clearly a bigger threat than Chara

 

[Read_this_post]

There isnt really solid evidence confirming either one is truly superior. But they have the same general feat at full power.

But yeah, infinite stats, endgame problem and seven souls dont mean much, especially when the true reset which chara performed would involve resetting the barrier too. It doesnt make much sense for chara to be massively inferior to angel death asriel.

 

[Unoriginal_Memes]

As I've said before, I don't think Absolute God of Hyperdeath Asriel should scale, but Angel of Death should definitely scale.

 

[Antvasima]

I will unsubscribe to this thread due to time constraints. You can send me a message later if you need my help.

 

[Read_this_post]

@Unoriginal Memes Yeah I know. I think maybe its best to maybe let cal have his say on base asriel and what he thinks about me and andys comments above so we can come to a firmer agreement. Then after that it should be safe to make the tier changes

@Ant Will do. Though we might just get an admin to unlock anything anyway. Thanks for the help

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Chara didn't perform the True Reset. Frisk did, and even if she did, the SAVE and LOAD ability falls under time hax.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Chara didn't perform the True Reset. Frisk did

Wrong. Chara did perform it.

even if she did, the SAVE and LOAD ability falls under time hax.

Wrong again, as it states numerous times that SAVING and LOADING causes a universe to be created, regardless if its time manipulation or not. Every SAVE is a universe, and when a True Reset is made, the multiverse of Undertale is completely destroyed.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

That's not the True Reset. Chara destroyed the game and put it back to how it was, thus creating a makeshift True Reset.

Show me where it says SAVEing and LOADing creates new universes.

 

[Chariot190]

That's not the True Reset. Chara destroyed the game and put it back to how it was, thus creating a makeshift True Reset.
Show me where it says SAVEing and LOADing creates new universes.

Doesnt flowey and sans both say that though?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

No, they don't. The closest thing to it is Sans's mention that Chara's presence was causing timelines to be "moving left and right, stopping and starting".

 

[Psychomaster35]

Bump

 

[ElixirBlue]

Sigh, Bump

 

[Psychomaster35]

Beat you there, you know.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Lol XD

 

[Psychomaster35]

Bump

 

[ElixirBlue]

@Psychomaster35 Well, what's more to talk about?

 

[Read_this_post]

Charas endgame feat literally functions the exact way the players (not frisk) true reset functions and is the only way to completely remove everyones memories.

Anyway. Floweys scaling is pretty much accepted and long since debunked at this point. Base asriel scaling is only disagreed on by a few, but the arguments dont really have any ground to stand on. The 7 souls argument doesnt really have an affect on asriels base since its a supressed version of asriel. Angel death seems mostly accepted. Can we make these changes?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

It functions the same because it was done in a roundabout way, not through sheer power or hax.

What was the base Asriel scaling?

 

[Read_this_post]

She literally destroyed the game to reset it with a knife swing. Asriel was ending the world to perform the true reset. Flowey describes the true reset as erasing everything. The true reset and charas feat being the only way to fully erase memories with normal time manip retaining floweys memories and giving toriel a case of deja vu etc.

Cals argument as it currently stands is stats and chara not having 7 souls.

The former is not really useful since chara has no cannon stats. 7 souls doesnt change anything as chara performed a feat logically comparable to 7 souls which would scale to full power asriel and flowey doesnt scale even with 6 souls.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

She performed the True Reset by destroying the game, which Gaster can almost do just by existing(who is weaker than Base Asriel), and then putting it back how it was before.

 

[Read_this_post]

That is exactly what asriel and the player were doing. They were erasing everything and bringing the game back as it was.

Gaster is completely featless and scales to nobody.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Ghaster..? He can do literally nothing feat wise besides making a heat-to-energy machine.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Oh yeah, I forgot his profile doesn't link his STATs.

His STATs put him above Photoshop Flowey, but below Asriel (scroll to bottom).

 

[Unoriginal_Memes]

I don't think STATs really matter.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

They do, since we rightfully consider them to be canon.

 

[Unoriginal_Memes]

Gaster has absolutely nothing to back those STATs up. Tell me where Gaster has proven he is stronger than God Flowey, instead of just using in-game STATs.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

You act like they aren't a good measure of power, when they've been consistent and sometimes even mentioned throughout the game.

 

[Unoriginal_Memes]

The entire reason his tier is Unkown is because he has no feats whatsoever, and the STATs are questionable considering he's done literally nothing to note.