Undertale: Ending 2023 with a revision

[StrymULTRA]

Because I notices some characters are lacking some important stuff which I think it's more a oversight than anything else.

Chara's Pre-Death key

I'm not really fond of the existence of this key, as almost all of it comes from just assumptions and scaling from other characters, but I disgress given we have even much worse stuff, idrc.

Basically, Chara lacks some baseline human stuff. While I am not saying that not everything Frisk has should be included, Chara should still have at least:

• Limited Invulnerability, given that Chara is still a human and nothing really says that INV is something that only Frisk has, though I am open for a "Likely" too.
• Type 1 Self-Sustenance, given it's more a biological thing than something DT-related.
• Basically all the resistances Frisk has, as those are related to biology still. The exception here are the ones to Status Effect Inducement and Mind Manipulation, as those are done through Clear Mind, something Chara didn't showcase to be capable of using.

Edit: noticed that Humanity should get these for the exact same reason as Chara, due to them lacking normal human things as well.

Papyrus

The guy should have Limited Toon Force based on the fact he can walk and jump in physics-defying ways. That's it, only that it should be noted that it's not combat applicable as he's never showcased to use it in fights.

Asgore

He has Afterimage Creation based on the fact he can attack using afterimages, but I don't remember when he did that? Best he did is moving that fast to get afterimages, so justification should be changed to this instead.

Asriel's SOULs stuff

Essentially, his tabber about him getting all the Monsters' powers (check the "All Monsters' Magic" in his God of Hyperdeath Key) just sucks. It has 0 explanations on why Asriel has certain things, and is very, very incomplete.

I made this version of the tabber, and the changes are the following:

• Added everything I could find for the Monsters' stuff
• Removed Vibration Manipulation (it comes from Temmie, and I don't really think it can be applied to Asriel, as I think it comes from her shaking a lot??? It doesn't have any justification so I dunno)
• Added the fact he hasn't Napstabook's SOUL and generally expanded his justification on why he has these abilities
• Added the fact that he should be capable of using most of Sans' stuff despite the latter not attacking in his fight
• Removed Clairvoyance, as it comes from something that's more related to Sans' intelligence than a magic-based power

And that's it ig.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Disagree FRA

 

[StrymULTRA]

Disagree FRA

 

[Fezzih_007]

I agree with Ziller.

 

[KingNanaya]

Ziller cooked fr fr

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I cooked.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not sure about Invulnerability, but the rest looks good.

 

[Roachman40]

neutral on self sustenance for chara, everything else looks fine from a glance.

 

[AThe1412]

Papyrus's goofy ah jumps are probably an application of his gravity manipulation which means he can likely resort to them in a fight if he's bloodlusted.

 

[KingNanaya]

 

[StrymULTRA]

Papyrus's goofy ah jumps are probably an application of his gravity manipulation which means he can likely resort to them in a fight if he's bloodlusted.

The Gravity hax is ONLY for increasing, not lowering lol.

 

[AThe1412]

The Gravity hax is ONLY for increasing, not lowering lol.

What if he just did something similar to Sans' usage of gravity? Increasing gravity in more than one direction? We also know that Papyrus was holding back against Frisk and is physically stronger than Sans so he should be able to do it too, right?

 

[StrymULTRA]

What if he just did something similar to Sans' usage of gravity? Increasing gravity in more than one direction? We also know that Papyrus was holding back against Frisk and is physically stronger than Sans so he should be able to do it too, right?

Papyrus has nowhere the mastery of Sans' messing with gravity, he would have used the power against Frisk otherwise given how boastful he is about his capabilities.

This is also a moot point as Sans never used his gravity powers on himself, so assuming Papyrus can use it for this reason is a headcanon.

 

[AThe1412]

Papyrus has nowhere the mastery of Sans' messing with gravity, he would have used the power against Frisk otherwise given how boastful he is about his capabilities.

This is also a moot point as Sans never used his gravity powers on himself, so assuming Papyrus can use it for this reason is a headcanon.

Okay then. I agree with everything.

 

[Greatsage13th]

agreed with all

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Chara's Pre-Death key

I'm not really fond of the existence of this key, as almost all of it comes from just assumptions and scaling from other characters, but I disgress given we have even much worse stuff, idrc.

Basically, Chara lacks some baseline human stuff. While I am not saying that not everything Frisk has should be included, Chara should still have at least:

• Limited Invulnerability, given that Chara is still a human and nothing really says that INV is something that only Frisk has, though I am open for a "Likely" too.

I agree with the ability addition. I think that it's more than just "likely". Game mechanics are canon in Undertale, and a character being able to engage in battle encounters using a human soul means interacting with those game mechanics in the same way that Frisk has demonstrated to, including having invincibility frames after getting hit.

• Type 1 Self-Sustenance, given it's more a biological thing than something DT-related.
• Basically all the resistances Frisk has, as those are related to biology still. The exception here are the ones to Status Effect Inducement and Mind Manipulation, as those are done through Clear Mind, something Chara didn't showcase to be capable of using.

I agree with the actual abilities being included, but not the exact justification that it's simply a biological thing. Just because one human did something, that something was related to a physical attribute and another character is a human, doesn't mean that the latter character can necessarily do absolutely anything the former character has ever physically done. The justification is more so that Frisk doing something like surviving in Hotland isn't portrayed as special to them at all. Monsters are weaker than humans and can melt from being too determined, yet monsters can live in Hotland without melting, so it can be reasonably presumed that Chara could survive in Hotland when we know that Frisk and an unknown human who left a frying pan there were capable of staying there and were similarly less prone to melting.

Papyrus

The guy should have Limited Toon Force based on the fact he can walk and jump in physics-defying ways. That's it, only that it should be noted that it's not combat applicable as he's never showcased to use it in fights.

I agree with the ability addition, and I find it odd that this hasn't been listed on Papyrus' profile for a long time. However, "not combat applicable" isn't the right phrasing. It's hypothetically applicable, since we don't have a reason to believe that Papyrus is incapable of using the ability in a fight when we see him be capable of using it casually and to break a window. What you mean is that it's out of character for Papyrus to use it regularly, and/or he doesn't realize that it could be useful in a battle. Using the aforementioned logic, I also don't see what makes this demonstration of toon force "limited". It being limited implies that it's not the full scope of the ability to circumvent science for comedic effect, even though Papyrus clearly did do that without a problem. The limitation is related to Papyrus' behavior rather than the toon force itself.

Asgore

He has Afterimage Creation based on the fact he can attack using afterimages, but I don't remember when he did that? Best he did is moving that fast to get afterimages, so justification should be changed to this instead.

I agree with your justification. I think that someone originally interpreted Asgore's trident slash attack as being what he does as an "attack fast enough to create afterimages". If you pause the video on the few frames where Asgore's trident overlaps the box that restricts the movement of Frisk's soul from being limitless, the blur from the trident is very wide. Both evidence can be used.

Asriel's SOULs stuff

Essentially, his tabber about him getting all the Monsters' powers (check the "All Monsters' Magic" in his God of Hyperdeath Key) just sucks. It has 0 explanations on why Asriel has certain things, and is very, very incomplete.

I made this version of the tabber, and the changes are the following:

• Added everything I could find for the Monsters' stuff
• Removed Vibration Manipulation (it comes from Temmie, and I don't really think it can be applied to Asriel, as I think it comes from her shaking a lot??? It doesn't have any justification so I dunno)
• Added the fact he hasn't Napstabook's SOUL and generally expanded his justification on why he has these abilities
• Added the fact that he should be capable of using most of Sans' stuff despite the latter not attacking in his fight
• Removed Clairvoyance, as it comes from something that's more related to Sans' intelligence than a magic-based power

I agree with most of the changes. I think that the listing of "Hacking" could be questionable though. Alphys and Mettaton might be capable of hacking just because they're very familiar with machines, rather than because of a superpower that Asriel was able to absorb, unless Asriel also absorbed the skills of all the monsters. If I'm incorrect, it's because I don't recall why the characters have "Hacking" listed and their VS Battles Wiki profiles don't provide a justification. Also, don't forget to fix the second citation, since there is a reference error in your blog post at the time of me sending this message.

And that's it ig.

Happy New Year's Day.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I agree with the actual abilities being included, but not the exact justification that it's simply a biological thing. Just because one human did something, that something was related to a physical attribute and another character is a human, doesn't mean that the latter character can necessarily do absolutely anything the former character has ever physically done. The justification is more so that Frisk doing something like surviving in Hotland isn't portrayed as special to them at all. Monsters are weaker than humans and can melt from being too determined, yet monsters can live in Hotland without melting, so it can be reasonably presumed that Chara could survive in Hotland when we know that Frisk and an unknown human who left a frying pan there were capable of staying there and were similarly less prone to melting.

I meant that, yes.

I agree with the ability addition, and I find it odd that this hasn't been listed on Papyrus' profile for a long time. However, "not combat applicable" isn't the right phrasing. It's hypothetically applicable, since we don't have a reason to believe that Papyrus is incapable of using the ability in a fight when we see him be capable of using it casually and to break a window. What you mean is that it's out of character for Papyrus to use it regularly, and/or he doesn't realize that it could be useful in a battle. Using the aforementioned logic, I also don't see what makes this demonstration of toon force "limited". It being limited implies that it's not the full scope of the ability to circumvent science for comedic effect, even though Papyrus clearly did do that without a problem. The limitation is related to Papyrus' behavior rather than the toon force itself.

I took from Dante here, as he too does here goofy aaah things which aren't proven to be combat applicable, aka something like "though it's not shown to be combat applicable". Plus I meant limited as Papyrus uses it only for movements, not Looney Toons stuff like them deforming at will or making absurd actions like grabbing holes.

I agree with your justification. I think that someone originally interpreted Asgore's trident slash attack as being what he does as an "attack fast enough to create afterimages". If you pause the video on the few frames where Asgore's trident overlaps the box that restricts the movement of Frisk's soul from being limitless, the blur from the trident is very wide. Both evidence can be used.

Fair.

I agree with most of the changes. I think that the listing of "Hacking" could be questionable though. Alphys and Mettaton might be capable of hacking just because they're very familiar with machines, rather than because of a superpower that Asriel was able to absorb, unless Asriel also absorbed the skills of all the monsters. If I'm incorrect, it's because I don't recall why the characters have "Hacking" listed and their VS Battles Wiki profiles don't provide a justification. Also, don't forget to fix the second citation, since there is a reference error in your blog post at the time of me sending this message.

The thing is broken on purpose as I just copypasted the "<ref name="POSTFIGHT" />" that's already on Asriel's profile if you see the source code.

Plus it's a fair thing to say about Hacking, ye.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I took from Dante here, as he too does here goofy aaah things which aren't proven to be combat applicable, aka something like "though it's not shown to be combat applicable". Plus I meant limited as Papyrus uses it only for movements, not Looney Toons stuff like them deforming at will or making absurd actions like grabbing holes.

I won't urge the idea, but I'm still not convinced that this isn't just a behavioral limitation, and I'll elaborate on why. I would rather not list the toon force that Papyrus and Dante have as "limited" for this reason, because this limitation is intuitively part of what toon force can generally be. The limitation for many characters is that toon force might only be usable for funny doings, so if those characters are usually portrayed seriously in battles, then it's expected that they won't be using their unserious ability, even though they could use it in a battle in the right specific circumstances if they were to be aware of it. Despite what I have written here, Papyrus' toon force seems to lack versatility anyway, so, I would list the toon force as "minor" instead of "limited".

The thing is broken on purpose as I just copypasted the "<ref name="POSTFIGHT" />" that's already on Asriel's profile if you see the source code.

I figured out how it will work after you told me. It looks fine then.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I won't urge the idea, but I'm still not convinced that this isn't just a behavioral limitation, and I'll elaborate on why. I would rather not list the toon force that Papyrus and Dante have as "limited" for this reason, because this limitation is intuitively part of what toon force can generally be. The limitation for many characters is that toon force might only be usable for funny doings, so if those characters are usually portrayed seriously in battles, then it's expected that they won't be using their unserious ability, even though they could use it in a battle in the right specific circumstances if they were to be aware of it. Despite what I have written here, Papyrus' toon force seems to lack versatility anyway, so, I would list the toon force as "minor" instead of "limited".

To be honest I'd still list it as "limited" as it's a combination of both lack of versatility and the lack of proof of being usable in combat.

Also added Danmaku to the list, and Humanity should also get the additions Chara gets, as the page lacks the "normal human" things as well.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the OP.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[TheShape03]

I agree.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Bump

I disagree with this bump.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You just contributed with the bumping through yours tho.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

You just contributed with the bumping through yours tho.

Oh yeah?

 

[Psychomaster35]

These should be fine

 

[StrymULTRA]

These should be fine

Can you ping more staff? I need one more after all.

 

[Imaginym]

When checking the blog, the 2nd citation showed the following text:

Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; no text was provided for refs named POSTFIGHT

Is that there because of blog limitations or such?

Papyrus

The guy should have Limited Toon Force based on the fact he can walk and jump in physics-defying ways. That's it, only that it should be noted that it's not combat applicable as he's never showcased to use it in fights.

Wouldn't this be "not in-character" rather than "not combat applicable", since he doesn't move at all in fights typically, but in theory, could, & thus, might do so in manners that use his Toon Force?
Especially if he was Bloodlusted, it could be plausible he might utilize such maneuverability abilities, right?

 

[QrowBarr]

Yeah OP looks fine

 

[StrymULTRA]

Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; no text was provided for refs named POSTFIGHT

Is that there because of blog limitations or such?

The thing is broken on purpose as I just copypasted the "<ref name="POSTFIGHT" />" that's already on Asriel's profile if you see the source code.

Wouldn't this be "not in-character" rather than "not combat applicable", since he doesn't move at all in fights typically, but in theory, could, & thus, might do so in manners that use his Toon Force?
Especially if he was Bloodlusted, it could be plausible he might utilize such maneuverability abilities, right?

We don't know how he would do that in fights, it's a situation similar to Dante in fights.

Yeah OP looks fine

Can you ping staff as I already asked?

 

[Imaginym]

We don't know how he would do that in fights, it's a situation similar to Dante in fights.

I don't know Dante's situation.
& why wouldn't how he does it in fights be like how he does it outside of them?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't know Dante's situation.

Limited Toon Force (Showed to have this ability a few times in his life, like when he played Nevan,[21] or when he performed[22] a shakespearean play and when he danced[23] in the same style of Michael Jackson. However, this is not applicable in combat)

& why wouldn't how he does it in fights be like how he does it outside of them?

Because it's simply not shown to be applicable in fights. Similar to how Bill Cipher's plot hax isn't showcased to be usable offensively.

 

[AThe1412]

Limited Toon Force (Showed to have this ability a few times in his life, like when he played Nevan,[21] or when he performed[22] a shakespearean play and when he danced[23] in the same style of Michael Jackson. However, this is not applicable in combat)

Because it's simply not shown to be applicable in fights. Similar to how Bill Cipher's plot hax isn't showcased to be usable offensively.

I mean, Dante and Co. can actually dance off in the middle of a fight if they want, just without all the spotlights and confettis and stuff. Nero can somehow produce music by playing an air guitar in one of his taunts. V can do the same but with a violin.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, Dante and Co. can actually dance off in the middle of a fight if they want, just without all the spotlights and confettis and stuff. Nero can somehow produce music by playing an air guitar in one of his taunts. V can do the same but with a violin.

What I mean is being used offensively. I maybe shouldn't have used Dante, but Bill also fits here.

 

[AThe1412]

What I mean is being used offensively. I maybe shouldn't have used Dante, but Bill also fits here.

Oh, I see what you mean now.

 

[QrowBarr]

@Elizhaa @Starter_Pack @Andytrenom @CrimsonStarFallen @DarkDragonMedeus