Undertale downgrades

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Except Chara didn't.

There are points later where they do, specifically when Frisk starts (keeps) walking without your prompting.

Here he most you get is "reeee that's my chocolate."

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Actually there were signs before that, such as the red text similar to New Home's appearing when they were checking for the knives. In fact the entire reason Chara wanted to kill Flowey at the end was because he accidentally reminded Chara of how he had gotten them both killed as Asriel.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Actually there were signs before that, such as the red text similar to New Home's appearing when they were checking for the knives. In fact the entire reason Chara wanted to kill Flowey at the end was because he accidentally reminded Chara of how he had gotten them both killed as Asriel.

?????

Where did you get that interpretation from?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

"WHERE ARE THE KNIVES."


Oh, sorry. It was ONE of the reasons.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to do this?

Anyone? It is unlikely that anything will happen here until then.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Actually there were signs before that, such as the red text similar to New Home's appearing when they were checking for the knives. In fact the entire reason Chara wanted to kill Flowey at the end was because he accidentally reminded Chara of how he had gotten them both killed as Asriel.

That means nothing. There is still a precise point at which Chara can start taking control over your actions (Sans and after), and there is a precise 0oint where they get Frisk's soul.

Neither of those are when Flowey claims, and he himself isn't even certain that it's Chara that "possessed" Frisk.

Flowey is not omniscient, and is blindsided several times. Using his word to try and guess Chara's motivations is really baseless. Chara Flowey being afraid started when he mentioned how he wouldn't hesitate to kill Frisk and Chara to get his way and how Chara would do the same, which is obviously true. Other than that, Chara kill anyone in their path, and their introduction implies more that they wanted Frisk to reach their "absolute peak", instead of caring about anything in the world.

Flowey makes a lot of assumption about your character based on your actions, and none of them are rapresented as absolute truth.

 

[Read_this_post]

Im working on the blog and should hopefully get it out soon. There is one thing i have found. To sum it up short. Chara posesses frisk the same way asriel posses his flower. But instead an extract from a human soul, the player acts as the source of determination.

The player not existing is downright headcannon and pretty much contradicted by everything.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Bump

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

That means nothing. There is still a precise point at which Chara can start taking control over your actions (Sans and after), and there is a precise 0oint where they get Frisk's soul.

Neither of those are when Flowey claims, and he himself isn't even certain that it's Chara that "possessed" Frisk.

Flowey is not omniscient, and is blindsided several times. Using his word to try and guess Chara's motivations is really baseless. Chara Flowey being afraid started when he mentioned how he wouldn't hesitate to kill Frisk and Chara to get his way and how Chara would do the same, which is obviously true. Other than that, Chara kill anyone in their path, and their introduction implies more that they wanted Frisk to reach their "absolute peak", instead of caring about anything in the world.

Flowey makes a lot of assumption about your character based on your actions, and none of them are rapresented as absolute truth.

Except Chara doesn't ever take control of your actions once until she makes you hit Sans again. Heck, there are occasions in Pacifist where Frisk moves without the player's input, such as nearly the exact same Monster Kid bridge scene.

Show me one occasion in Genocide where he's not sure it's Chara possessing Frisk.

There are two occasions where Flowey has EVER thought that Frisk was Chara. One was during the Asriel fight, which Kid Asriel corrected himself for later, admitting that he had gone pretty nuts in that form, and in Genocide, where he deduces it.

Obviously, whenever Flowey says something like, "You're pretty sick, huh?" you're not supposed to believe him, but during a plot-based part of the story where it's a result of his deduction, you clearly are.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Those are cutscenes. I think the difference of your character spontaneously attacking, flashing a green shirt and just suddenly walking on their own for a few seconds for no particular reason is obviously different then you walking up to get hugged or walking with a little kid. The difference is palpable.

I showed it in the OP. He just guesses that out of nowhere, and then goes with said guess.

That doesn't counter the fact that he does a lot of unbiased guesses about you all the time. "Jack always says bullshit but only talked about Kim being possessed twice, and he corrected himself when he was wrong" is not a great argument. He also "deduced" it out of nowhere because you killed some people he thinks you are soulless.

No you are not. Without hindsight, accidentally killing Toriel after you try to weaken her and running away is a perfectly normal thing to do. Any human would chose to do that over just leaving someone dead. Flowey assumes Frisk's mentality, but there is absolutely no reason for his baseless assumptions to be justified at all.

 

[Antvasima]

You should politely ask all of the staff members who have commented here previously to reply again via their message walls.

^

 

[Psychomaster35]

Ive contacted Starter to comment here.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks, but you should ask the others as well.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Agree with asriel and flowey not scaling to Chara. Don't agree with the rest.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Like... the rest in the OP? As in, Chara not having those powers?

 

[Moritzva]

Agree to all.

 

[Antvasima]

You should politely ask all of the staff members who have commented here previously to reply again via their message walls.

Is somebody willing to do this, or are the evaluations that they have given already sufficient to proceed with this?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Like... the rest in the OP? As in, Chara not having those powers?

Yeah those parts, I'm assuming they've already been discussed and agreed upon, which is why I didn't go into it.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

You just said you don't agree with them tough. You need to justify that.

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate a response to my previous post.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I would appreciate a response to my previous post.

Cal agreed to all of Chara's changes and no-one really argued them, so those are fine.

It's the scaling that isn't agreed on.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[TheArsenal1212]

I agree with the OP

 

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

Bruh momento n├║mero jajaja Undertale va a ser nerfeado ya sabia que Yukari speed y lo haxstompea very easy peasy a fodderasriel y fodderchara nomames we que bajocuento siempre fue fodder xddd

I agree with everything, keks

 

[The_Coolest_Water_Bottle]

I agree with everything.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ricsi

Can you or somebody else elaborate regarding what still needs to be decided here, so we can continue the discussion?

 

[Psychomaster35]

Bump, still needs to be finished, here.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. A summary would be useful, as I said in my last post.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Lemme resummarize then...

The 2-B scaling apparently comes from Flowey being superior to Chara, who destroyed all of Undertale, consistent of many different timelines. The scaling does not make any sense, however. Flowey would be defeated by the Player, and Chara would defeat the Player at the end of the genocide route.

And whether or not this so called "Anamoly" existed, Frisk was still able to stalemate Asriel Dreemurr, who had all 6 human souls plus every monster soul. Eventually, he would also defeat Omega Flowey as well, who only had 6 human souls. But... Frisk would eventually be defeated by Chara at the end of the Genocide Route. So, Chara>Frisk>Flowey.

Its safe to say that Stats were game mechanics, and the level did not matter. Even if it did, Chara probably leveled up to a level similar of higher than Flowey's, to an unknown extent after destroying all of Undertale. Flowey pretty much states that he killed everyone, and that is EXACTLY what Chara did when he destroyed Undertale.

As a lowball, Omega Flowey would be Low 2-C for altering the very timeline he was in, as well as creating Save States, which act like creating universes.

This means Base Asriel gets downgraded as well, to Low 2-C. Nothing ever states that Base Asriel=End of the game Chara. AoH Asriel still scales to Chara for attempting to end the world of Undertale, which is what Chara was doing.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that seems to make sense, but I would prefer more staff input.

 

[Andytrenom]

The player never interrupted the Flowey fight or defeat him, I have no clue where that is coming from

The point of Frisk defeating Flowey is also very out of context. The only reason he lost is because the souls within him rebelled , first causing Frisk to be able to harm him, then escaping Flowey and leaving him powerless after he recovered completely

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

So what, if anything, do we need to do here?

 

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

Low 2C Asriel??

Ohohohoho


New Bruh momento incoming

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

So what, if anything, do we need to do here?

We remove Chara abilities.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

What abilities, exactly?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The ones listed in the OP.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

The ones I addressed in the comments?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

You write entire walls of texts for just about everything. Please quote anything that justifies type 1 abstraction or Mid-Godly.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

You're counter for Mid-Godly was hacking of the source code of the game. This would be like me turning up the FPS up to 60 and saying that Sans can hurt others faster, it's not canon at all. They also deleted the wrong files, as I pointed out.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

It's real BECAUSE it's the files. It's a metafictional game, Chara didn't HAVE to delete the actual files when she deleted the game, and Toby didn't HAVE to make the Annoying Dog a multiversal constant, but he did because he knew it would be found. That's why we started using it in the first place.

What do you mean the wrong files?