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The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 2

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KingPin0422 said:
Let's see...
  • Irrelevant Lifting Strength: Just go through every 1-A and above page and change the Lifting Strength rating from "Irrelevant" to "Immeasurable". We should also remove the rating from the Lifting Strength scale itself, of course.
Click to expand...
Okay. We need volunteers to apply this revision though.
KingPin0422 said:
  • Conceptual Manipulation: Apply the draft written by Yuri to the power's page, then go through the Concept Users category and edit every member that is listed with type 2 or lower accordingly.
Click to expand...
Please elaborate.
KingPin0422 said:
  • Beyond-Dimensional Existence: Hmm. I'm not sure if we have a consensus on this one. Maybe I'll write up a draft and get some opinions from there, if that's needed.
Click to expand...
Okay.
 
Alright, it's here. Let me know what you think about it.
Antvasima said:
Okay. We need volunteers to apply this revision though.
Click to expand...
Indeed. Luckily, if I have it right, there should only be a bit more than 100 pages that would need to be edited, and I'm willing to do the ones for the Cthulhu Mythos, at the very least.
Antvasima said:
Please elaborate.
Click to expand...
Yuri wrote this draft for Conceptual Manipulation that has been accepted for implementation. Once we change the actual page on the site to what is outlined here, we can go through the "Concept Users" category and retype anyone in this category who is currently listed as type 2 through type 4 to match the new classifications. However, there are 1,149 pages in the category, so it will take a lot of effort even with characters already listed with type 1 receiving no changes.
 
KingPin0422 said:
Yuri wrote this draft for Conceptual Manipulation that has been accepted for implementation. Once we change the actual page on the site to what is outlined here, we can go through the "Concept Users" category and retype anyone in this category who is currently listed as type 2 through type 4 to match the new classifications. However, there are 1,149 pages in the category, so it will take a lot of effort even with characters already listed with type 1 receiving no changes.
Click to expand...
Type 1's can also become type 2's based on the context, and vice versa. We can sort that out later.
 
I don't know how the Wiki's bot or the site's coding works but if its able to do something like search for all pages that have the text "Conceptual Manipulation (Types 1 and 2" and then replace them all with the text "Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1" then that would probably be easier.
 
Well if the bot works as I suggested above then you could just as easily search for "Conceptual Manipulation (Types 2 and 4" and replace it with "Conceptual Manipulation (Types 1 and 3" or "Conceptual Manipulation (Types 2, 3, and 4" to "Conceptual Manipulation (Types 1, 2, and 3"
 
Basically, the Conceptual Manipulation types need to be moved down one number i.e. Type 4 becomes Type 3 etc.
 
I think the new idea of redefining concepts so they are less specific and more inclusive is great and I think type 4 should come under the same treatment, since its explanation seems to imply that these concepts are universal to every person and ergo it would require making everybody blind to affect them. Furthermore, it also puts an emphasis on the faculty of perception when the main goal of a type like itself should be to contain all versions of concepts that don't govern reality; so concepts specifically related to internal cognition should be accounted for also.
 
Tago238 said:
I think the new idea of redefining concepts so they are less specific and more inclusive is great and I think type 4 should come under the same treatment, since its explanation seems to imply that these concepts are universal to every person and ergo it would require making everybody blind to affect them. It also puts an emphasis on perception when the main goal of it should be to contain all versions of conceptual manipulation that don't govern reality so concepts specifically related to internal cognition should be accounted for also.
Click to expand...
Don't really understand what you mean here.
 
Make "lesser realist concepts" just concepts that don't govern reality and are only responsible for cognition and perception, since presently there are some unnecessary and slightly odd specifications.
 
Can you elaborate further regarding the differences between what you suggest and the current version please?
 
Responding to Antvasima:

I did elaborate on this in my previous comment but the main differences are 1)The definition of "LRCs" currently makes reference to the faculty of perception whilst excluding models of concepts related to the faculty of internal cognition and 2)"LRCs'" current definition can be clearly inferred to be universal based on the last sentence, which is not only unnecessarily specific but actually kind of queer.
 
You did not explain in a manner that is easy to understand if someone has limited time available. Please try again.
 
Antvasima said:
You did not explain in a manner that is easy to understand if someone has limited time available. Please try again.
Click to expand...
1)The current definition is about those concepts being directly dependant on perception, this excludes simple thoughts that aren't just basic sensory experience. It also excludes concepts that are platonic insofar that they exist separately from the mind but don't actually govern reality (or even exist on an ontologically higher plane to it) and etc.

2)The current definition also says "Similarly to Type 3, this type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying all sentient life (or otherwise blocking all perception) and thus ending all concepts of this level would not qualify, while directly destroying all concepts of this level and thus blocking all perception would qualify.", it can be inferred from this that the wiki's model of type 4 concepts less involves ideas/thoughts local to an individual and instead posits that all concepts are part of a collection which all sentient beings use/ are responsible for.
 
I might understand where your going with this, but to make sure that I'm not thinking of something different can you give an example of a Concept that would be this new Type 3 Concept that isn't Type 4 currently.
 
I gave one example before, concepts that are platonic insofar as they exist separately from the mind but don't govern reality or are located in some higher ontological level of reality. There's also a lot of stuff already indexed as type 4 that only falls under my proposed definition debatably (such as Parallax), since "fear" isn't sense data, though it isn't exactly a concept either so it's probably not a great example. The main purpose of these proposals is to iron out odd phrasing on the page more than anything.
 
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Sorry for comment in staff thread, but why we remove Irrelevant rating for Speed and Lifting Strength. As to my understanding, to Beyond-Dimensional Existence being, the "concept" of movement and lifting is "irrelevant" to them. On the other hand Immeasurable is while it can't be measure, there is still existing the form of movement and lifting. Or am i wrong 0.0

About Conceptual Manipulation. While i can understand that we merge type 2 and type 1 because they both govern reality and universally independent. But i thought there is still a drastically difference between True Platonic and False Platonic so merge them will generalize the type 2 and type 1, make it have to differentiate them, or they are equal????
 
Vietthai96 said:
Sorry for comment in staff thread, but why we remove Irrelevant rating for Speed and Lifting Strength. As to my understanding, to Beyond-Dimensional Existence being, the "concept" of movement and lifting is "irrelevant" to them. On the other hand Immeasurable is while it can't be measure, there is still existing the form of movement and lifting. Or am i wrong 0.0

About Conceptual Manipulation. While i can understand that we merge type 2 and type 1 because they both govern reality and universally independent. But i thought there is still a drastically difference between True Platonic and False Platonic so merge them will generalize the type 2 and type 1, make it have to differentiate them, or they are equal????
Click to expand...
The former is outdated, there's no such thing as being beyond dimensions for the purposes of the tiering system anymore, that comes from the time tier 0 was basically kept for "omnipotent" beings, which got removed as it was too assumptive and NLFish, among other issues.

For the latter, the same applies, the only difference between (Current) type 1 and 2 is that the former was kept for 1-As and above, and the latter for every other case.
 
Bobsican said:
The former is outdated, there's no such thing as being beyond dimensions for the purposes of the tiering system anymore, that comes from the time tier 0 was basically kept for "omnipotent" beings, which got removed as it was too assumptive and NLFish, among other issues.

For the latter, the same applies, the only difference between (Current) type 1 and 2 is that the former was kept for 1-As and above, and the latter for every other case.
Click to expand...
So all of them are the remain of the time when Tier 0 is the Absolute Infinity thing?? So we also will nuke beyond dimensional existence??. Well but thank you anyway for explaining ^^
 
Tago, would you be willing to write a draft for what you have in mind in a wiki sandbox page?
 
BTW why we call 1-A beyond dimensional existence? i mean, you can be 1-A without transcending the concept of dimensionality , right. 1-A is just transcending an infinite layers.
 
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