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Hi all.
(P.S. Second one is the biggest, leave it for last if needed.)
Besides those: There are a couple that need minor adjustments. This one needs to be renamed to "Set Theory Explanation Page," or something along those lines, since cardinal numbers and the like are not the basis of the higher tiers anymore, so there is no sense in calling it an explanation page for the whole Tiering System at this point. This one, in my opinion, should be deleted. It seems to be an ancient precursor to the page for Reality-Fiction Transcendences, which, evidently, is obsolete now.
In the Higher-Dimensional Existence page, these tidbits should be removed:
And in the Acausality page:
The second paragraph is false and should be removed, since tier 0s do, indeed, have unqualified immutability and acausality now. The first one seems to emanate from the same rough rationale as the second, so it ought to be removed as well, or at the very least adjusted: I suggest simply noting, for now, that a qualified immutability is permissible for non-0 characters, whereas unqualified immutability is reserved for omnipotents. Like so:
This should be all, for now. I kept this restricted to the essential explanation pages for the Tiering System. More revisions to other pages will come, shortly after the core of the revisions is applied.
At first, I considered just making it so Tier 0 pages have no sections for Lifting Strength, Striking Strength, and so on, but I realized that's no good – What if the profile has non-0 keys, after all? So, I decided on the following instead:
Now, "How much can a Tier 0 lift?" or "How hard can a Tier 0 punch?" are genuinely meaningless questions, since they transcend both lifting and punching, but they can nevertheless create things that lift and punch, as well as cause effects that practically amount to these things. Something like "Inapplicable" wouldn't really be the most appropriate label, in my eyes, since it neglects the fact they don't simply lack the ability to do these things, but are infinitely beyond it, too. So, Irrelevant seems best.
As for how their Powers and Abilities are to be structured, they'll be more or less like this:
Omniscience is optional because a Tier 0 doesn't have to be an active conscious mind. Regular powers will still be listed because we, of course, are an indexing wiki, and a character being technically able to do anything is no excuse to not index what they're shown doing.
After a bit of thinking, I decided to divide the potential future layouts into the following options (Taking into account suggestions by some). Bear in mind that the options below aren't meant to be restrictive, so if anyone has suggestions of their own, I'm happy to hear them out.
This is the option that has been provisionally referred to throughout the revisions. That is:
Low 1-C to High 1-B = Remains the same.
High 1-B+ = Spaces with uncountably infinite dimensions. All higher cardinal numbers land here.
Low 1-A = Sum total of all ordinary quantitative structures in mathematics. The Universe of Sets.
Low 1-C = 5-D (Most abundant category. Merits its own specific tier)
1-C = 6-D to 9-D (Rare. Can all be shoved down into levels of a single tier)
High 1-C = 10-D to 11-D
1-B = 12-D to Infinite-D
High 1-B = Spaces with uncountably infinite dimensions.
High 1-B+ = Spaces corresponding to inaccessible cardinals and up.
Low 1-C = 5-D
1-C = 6-D to 11-D
High 1-C = 12-D to Infinite-D
1-B = Uncountably infinite dimensions. Starts at aleph-1 dimensions, up to any aleph with a finite index.
1-B+ = Very uncountably infinite dimensions. Aleph-omega, so, pretty much where the old 1-A+ is.
High 1-B = Inaccessible cardinals and up. Pretty much where the old High 1-A is.
Low 1-C = 5-D (Most abundant category. Merits its own specific tier)
1-C = 6-D to 9-D (Rare. Can all be shoved down into levels of a single tier)
High 1-C and High 1-B: Stay the same.
High 1-B+ = Spaces with uncountably infinite dimensions. All higher cardinal numbers land here.
Low 1-A = Sum total of all ordinary quantitative structures in mathematics. The Universe of Sets.
The latter options, by and large, aim to preserve the old Tiering System's broader inclusion of mathematical categories among the ratings. While I am of the mind that this is a good idea, I am honestly not sure of the best way to practically do so, seeing as we only ever had so many characters corresponding to these specific mathematical concepts, power-wise, because we equated them to metaphysical layers. Now that we separated metaphysics from mathematics, representation of the latter seems quite sparse indeed. I very much request more suggestions on this front.
But, regardless, I leave the choice up to you all. I am of the opinion that Option 3 in particular is the least attractive all-in-all, myself. Wouldn't pick it.
And I believe that will be all for now.
New Pages
So:(P.S. Second one is the biggest, leave it for last if needed.)
Ultima Reality/thing
vsbattles.fandom.com
Ultima Reality/thingy
vsbattles.fandom.com
Ultima Reality/i h
vsbattles.fandom.com
Ultima Reality/e kh
vsbattles.fandom.com
Ultima Reality/m
vsbattles.fandom.com
Besides those: There are a couple that need minor adjustments. This one needs to be renamed to "Set Theory Explanation Page," or something along those lines, since cardinal numbers and the like are not the basis of the higher tiers anymore, so there is no sense in calling it an explanation page for the whole Tiering System at this point. This one, in my opinion, should be deleted. It seems to be an ancient precursor to the page for Reality-Fiction Transcendences, which, evidently, is obsolete now.
In the Higher-Dimensional Existence page, these tidbits should be removed:
- Simply viewing 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs as fiction does not qualify them as Higher-Dimensional, as they are still portrayed as regular 3-dimensional beings.
- Ontological differences over 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs, with three or more dimensions, are often a measure of power and do not necessarily indicate the presence of an extradimensional axis.
And in the Acausality page:
Though the character is completely independent of causality to the point of being unaffected by any outside change, this only extends to as far as evidence shows and not to things beyond its feats.
While true acausality such that one is completely unbounded by and independent from cause and effect in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction.
The second paragraph is false and should be removed, since tier 0s do, indeed, have unqualified immutability and acausality now. The first one seems to emanate from the same rough rationale as the second, so it ought to be removed as well, or at the very least adjusted: I suggest simply noting, for now, that a qualified immutability is permissible for non-0 characters, whereas unqualified immutability is reserved for omnipotents. Like so:
Note that being utterly and totally immutable is something that, strictly speaking, is only guaranteed for characters with a Tier 0 rating, while lesser characters can only have likewise lesser forms of the ability by their own nature. They may, however, have a particularly potent form of immutability bestowed upon them by a Tier 0.
This should be all, for now. I kept this restricted to the essential explanation pages for the Tiering System. More revisions to other pages will come, shortly after the core of the revisions is applied.
About Tier 11
So, just for the sake of confirmation here: There will be no Tier 12. While it would be significantly neater, Tier 11 is empty enough as is, and given that much of the characters in it are ones that have a qualitative inferiority to conventional reality, "Upside-down 1-A" will remain a subset of 11-C, for practicality's sake.Tier 0 Page Formatting
As it turns out, Tier 0s are kinda weird. Given they don't function at all like characters of any other tier, their labelling will have to be a little different.At first, I considered just making it so Tier 0 pages have no sections for Lifting Strength, Striking Strength, and so on, but I realized that's no good – What if the profile has non-0 keys, after all? So, I decided on the following instead:
- Speed, by default, is set at Omnipresent.
- Striking Strength, Lifting Strength and Stamina are set at Irrelevant
- Range is set at Boundless
Now, "How much can a Tier 0 lift?" or "How hard can a Tier 0 punch?" are genuinely meaningless questions, since they transcend both lifting and punching, but they can nevertheless create things that lift and punch, as well as cause effects that practically amount to these things. Something like "Inapplicable" wouldn't really be the most appropriate label, in my eyes, since it neglects the fact they don't simply lack the ability to do these things, but are infinitely beyond it, too. So, Irrelevant seems best.
As for how their Powers and Abilities are to be structured, they'll be more or less like this:
Powers and Abilities: Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Omniscience (Optional). Specific applications that have been demonstrated are: [Regular list of powers here].
Omniscience is optional because a Tier 0 doesn't have to be an active conscious mind. Regular powers will still be listed because we, of course, are an indexing wiki, and a character being technically able to do anything is no excuse to not index what they're shown doing.
Reorganization of the Tiers
This is arguably the trickiest part of this thread, but bear with me. Over the course of the Tiering System revisions, I ended up deciding that a reorganization of the tiers will be required. As far as I am concerned, rearranging 1-A to 0 will not be needed, but the lower tiers are another story entirely.After a bit of thinking, I decided to divide the potential future layouts into the following options (Taking into account suggestions by some). Bear in mind that the options below aren't meant to be restrictive, so if anyone has suggestions of their own, I'm happy to hear them out.
Option 1
This is the option that has been provisionally referred to throughout the revisions. That is:
Low 1-C to High 1-B = Remains the same.
High 1-B+ = Spaces with uncountably infinite dimensions. All higher cardinal numbers land here.
Low 1-A = Sum total of all ordinary quantitative structures in mathematics. The Universe of Sets.
Option 2
Low 1-C = 5-D (Most abundant category. Merits its own specific tier)
1-C = 6-D to 9-D (Rare. Can all be shoved down into levels of a single tier)
High 1-C = 10-D to 11-D
1-B = 12-D to Infinite-D
High 1-B = Spaces with uncountably infinite dimensions.
High 1-B+ = Spaces corresponding to inaccessible cardinals and up.
Option 3
Low 1-C = 5-D
1-C = 6-D to 11-D
High 1-C = 12-D to Infinite-D
1-B = Uncountably infinite dimensions. Starts at aleph-1 dimensions, up to any aleph with a finite index.
1-B+ = Very uncountably infinite dimensions. Aleph-omega, so, pretty much where the old 1-A+ is.
High 1-B = Inaccessible cardinals and up. Pretty much where the old High 1-A is.
Option 4
Low 1-C = 5-D (Most abundant category. Merits its own specific tier)
1-C = 6-D to 9-D (Rare. Can all be shoved down into levels of a single tier)
High 1-C and High 1-B: Stay the same.
High 1-B+ = Spaces with uncountably infinite dimensions. All higher cardinal numbers land here.
Low 1-A = Sum total of all ordinary quantitative structures in mathematics. The Universe of Sets.
The latter options, by and large, aim to preserve the old Tiering System's broader inclusion of mathematical categories among the ratings. While I am of the mind that this is a good idea, I am honestly not sure of the best way to practically do so, seeing as we only ever had so many characters corresponding to these specific mathematical concepts, power-wise, because we equated them to metaphysical layers. Now that we separated metaphysics from mathematics, representation of the latter seems quite sparse indeed. I very much request more suggestions on this front.
But, regardless, I leave the choice up to you all. I am of the opinion that Option 3 in particular is the least attractive all-in-all, myself. Wouldn't pick it.
And I believe that will be all for now.
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