The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 2

[Antvasima]

What do you think about Yuri's comments @Ultima_Reality ?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

This is the problem.
We equate things not be quantifiable or not having anything to quantify to them being higher form of something, which is wrong in pretty much all situations.

A good example would be moving in a timeless void. We litteraly concluded that they weren't usable for speed feat, but the proposal for Irrelevant is now different: "concepts of time and space flat out doesnt exist, so there's nothing to be quantified".

Timeless Voids litteraly fit this criteria more than the characters we would scale to it, mainly because it isn't considered as a speed thing to begin with.

That doesn't matter much when we already make an explicit distinction between lacking a certain concept and being superior to it outright, and the proposal that I outlined above aligns more with the latter than the former, which you can probably see in the fictional examples I gave. The conundrum with Timeless Voids was likewise focused primarily on locations that are just stated to lack time, or to be outside of it, without further context and not taking space into account, as well as the contradiction that occured when characters that are clearly restricted to moving at finite speeds are able to move in such voids; that example falls under the former case, and is thus unrelated to my point.

Thing is that it never was treated as speed though.
It just treats of the nature of reality, and you don't have a difference being made between the Hound and them
(the Hound being one-time characters to begin with, which couldn't move through space correctly).
There's not much difference between the Hound and Nyarlathotep in term of how they move or interact with the lower world in that regard

There very much is. The Hounds, as I said, still abide by some form of movement and causation, just one that takes place in 4-dimensional space, within a higher coordinate plane. Meanwhile, Nyarlathotep occupies no point in time or space whatsoever, and is not subject to either of those in any form. That's the distinction here: Being an inhabitant of a larger coordinate space that just extends above the time-axis of a given universe, and not being extended into any space and/or time to begin with. How that relates to speed is something I elaborated on down there, so, keep scrolling I guess.

What we lack is still the idea that it is speed, and not some correlation we're making just because both are linked to time and distance here.

"Speed" is just the absolute value of velocity, which itself is just the measure of the rate at which an object changes position in a given coordinate plane. Obviously, if your existence trivializes the very idea of a position in space, then this notion is entirely incoherent, and thus, beneath you. Can you find any logical fault in this? I haven't done much beyond reading through the later parts of this thread, so, apologies if that was already addressed, but I haven't really seen much on that front besides you calling it "headcanon" (Provided I'm reading this right, that is), which I don't think was ever substantiated.

 

[Antvasima]

Ultima still makes sense to me.

 

[QuasiYuri]

That doesn't matter much when we already make an explicit distinction between lacking a certain concept and being superior to it outright, and the proposal that I outlined above aligns more with the latter than the former, which you can probably see in the fictional examples I gave. The conundrum with Timeless Voids was likewise focused primarily on locations that are just stated to lack time, or to be outside of it, without further context and not taking space into account, as well as the contradiction that occured when characters that are clearly restricted to moving at finite speeds are able to move in such voids; that example falls under the former case, and is thus unrelated to my point.

Being superior is also something we don't see as speed tho. Just see how transcending time doesnt qualify as Immeasurable.
Although this point sucked on my part ye.

There very much is. The Hounds, as I said, still abide by some form of movement and causation, just one that takes place in 4-dimensional space, within a higher coordinate plane. Meanwhile, Nyarlathotep occupies no point in time or space whatsoever, and is not subject to either of those in any form. That's the distinction here: Being an inhabitant of a larger coordinate space that just extends above the time-axis of a given universe, and not being extended into any space and/or time to begin with. How that relates to speed is something I elaborated on down there, so, keep scrolling I guess.

This one is more a matter of where you can move rather than how fast you move tho. It isn't much different from the old "higher dimensional being are Immeasurable" since they move through more axis.

The difference is that they can move in places beyond what the Hound would, but you won't see anywhere in CM any mention of it being supposed to be faster n coe.

"Speed" is just the absolute value of velocity, which itself is just the measure of the rate at which an object changes position in a given coordinate plane. Obviously, if your existence trivializes the very idea of a position in space, then this notion is entirely incoherent, and thus, beneath you. Can you find any logical fault in this? I haven't done much beyond reading through the later parts of this thread, so, apologies if that was already addressed, but I haven't really seen much on that front besides you calling it "headcanon" (Provided I'm reading this right, that is), which I don't think was ever substantiated.

The result would naturally be Infinite speed though. We already treat transcending stuff such as distance as Infinite for instance.

Not abiding by a certain measure is also different from being above it all, in the same category.
For example, AP is measured by your physical energy ouput; cutting through space can't be quantified under it, but it doesnt mean it'll become a new tier above High 3-A; it just works differently.

And I think calling it headcanon isn't too far of my point of view.

It isn't because something isn't measurable that it is a new, higher form of speed. It simply is something else that relates to how you are positionned, like how you can be Omnipresent and subsonic, despite being in every single point in space at the same time, or how the AP example works.

And there's the fact that so far, nothing, be it fiction (although I don't doubt there may be exception), theorical stuff, etc.. linked the idea to possessing a higher level of "speed beyond speed".

If anything, including it as such would lower the quality of our profiles by misattributing something different under speed, making us replace the actual speed feats and lose indexing on this part.

(I could technically hold a similar argument regarding Immeasurable speed, but I don't think it would be a good idea rn.)

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody remind me about what we currently need to do here please?

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody remind me about what we currently need to do here please?

@KingPin0422 @AKM sama @QuasiYuri

 

[Everything12]

We need to finalise Beyond-Dimensional Existence's new name and Types, sort out what's going on with Irrelevant Speed, and start talking about what's going on with Transduality.

 

[Antvasima]

We need to finalise Beyond-Dimensional Existence's new name and Types, sort out what's going on with Irrelevant Speed, and start talking about what's going on with Transduality.

Okay. Thank you for the summary.

@Ultima_Reality and @DontTalkDT : What do you think are the best solutions for this?

I personally liked Ultima's suggestion for Irrelevant speed.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Mindovin @Crazylatin77 @Jvando @Zaratthustra @SamanPatou @Just_a_Random_Butler @ElixirBlue @Dino_Ranger_Black @Gemmysaur @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @The_Impress @QuasiYuri @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Therefir @Ugarik @DMUA @Jasonsith @Armorchompy @KieranH10 @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @Amelia_Lonelyheart

This is also a very important thread, so your help would be appreciated here as well.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I can see points on both ends, but I will note that while Quasi Yuri does have great intentions, I do recall times of him getting too strict with Immeasurable speed in the past. But I basically agree with his points in this instance. I agree with him that omnipresence =/= Immeasurable or Infinite speed by default and that "Transcending time" isn't enough to be Immeasurable by default.

 

[Antvasima]

I also agree about that, but the crucial issue is what to do with Irrelevant speed. Me and Ultima would like to keep but redefine it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do agree that is the primary topic, but I already basically voiced that I basically do not understand it. DontTalkDT iirc mentioned being okay with removing it outright.

Though, I understand that some people want to keep it. Which I'm fine with that if there can be better redefinitions. And whatever happens to the speed rating should also happen to the lifting strength rating too.

 

[KingPin0422]

Well, Irrelevant Lifting Strength pretty much follows the same premise as Irrelevant Speed: it's when the concept of "lifting strength" essentially doesn't apply in the first place, as compared to Immeasurable LS in which the strength cannot be measured by the same standards as the ratings before it due to exceeding them, but "strength" as a whole is not outright trivialized.

If a character happens to qualify for Irrelevant Speed, then they are pretty much guaranteed to qualify for Irrelevant Lifting Strength as well unless there's some extremely weird stuff going on, but I don't think we have any examples of that on the site.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Hm. This thread didn't progress much, it seems, though, regardless, apologies for my absence.

Being superior is also something we don't see as speed tho. Just see how transcending time doesnt qualify as Immeasurable.

In such cases, that'd just mean we are not interpreting the character's relationship with the flow of time as one of superiority, due to how vague the term "transcends" is. Immeasurable Speed at its core is already defined as movement beyond linear time, and existing on a level that's ontologically superior to it (Like, say, seeing a spacetime continuum as fiction) would already fulfill this criterion.

This one is more a matter of where you can move rather than how fast you move tho. It isn't much different from the old "higher dimensional being are Immeasurable" since they move through more axis.

It is, because when it comes to higher-dimensional areas whose nature is fully spatial, they could still be bound under linear time, and thus be subject to S = D/T. That's not the same as existing in a state where linear time as a whole is just a lower spatial dimension which you can freely move through and access any point of.

The result would naturally be Infinite speed though. We already treat transcending stuff such as distance as Infinite for instance.

Infinite speed still involves being a part of the coordinate plane, just on a level where your actions take place in 0 time, or in some fringe cases, where your speed is such that it can only be expressed by, say, the limit of S = D/T as T → 0. Moreover, that rating is given to characters that can only bypass any distance because of the "Can go anywhere instantly" aspect of it, and if they instead bypass both distance and linear time, they should be Immeasurable by definition.

Not abiding by a certain measure is also different from being above it all, in the same category.

And I think calling it headcanon isn't too far of my point of view.

It isn't because something isn't measurable that it is a new, higher form of speed.

I already said that Irrelevant Speed, under the definition I am proposing, would only involve superiority over said measures, instead of just operating on some alternate system that doesn't abide by them, so none of that actually addresses the argument..

And there's the fact that so far, nothing, be it fiction (although I don't doubt there may be exception), theorical stuff, etc.. linked the idea to possessing a higher level of "speed beyond speed".

You still haven't found any fault with the argument I outlined up there, beyond reiterating the whole "Being unable to be measured doesn't mean you are superior to it," which I already addressed at the very start of the discussion, and associating the idea with Infinite speed, which is wrong even if we exclude Irrelevant Speed from the equation entirely and focus only on things up to Immeasurable. Logical inferences are not a bad thing by any means, especially when the basic definitions of what we're dealing with support them.

 

[Antvasima]

I still strongly agree with Ultima.

 

[AKM sama]

So... I did apply the conceptual manipulation revisions earlier. But it seemed that Irrelevant lifting strength was still being discussed. What is the conclusion?

 

[KingPin0422]

Given that Ultima and Yuri suddenly stopped arguing about it, I'd say that we haven't reached a conclusion yet. They might need to be notified with a reminder that they still need to settle this matter.

 

[Antvasima]

So... I did apply the conceptual manipulation revisions earlier. But it seemed that Irrelevant lifting strength was still being discussed. What is the conclusion?

Thank you very much for helping out.

Given that Ultima and Yuri suddenly stopped arguing about it, I'd say that we haven't reached a conclusion yet. They might need to be notified with a reminder that they still need to settle this matter.

@Ultima_Reality @QuasiYuri

WOuld you be willing to continue to help out here please?

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write a summary of everything that we still have to decide and do here please? I can send a notification to our other staff members after that.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write a summary of everything that we still have to decide and do here please? I can send a notification to our other staff members after that.

@KingPin0422 @AKM sama @Ultima_Reality @DarkDragonMedeus

Also, this page probably needs to be updated:

Nonduality

Nonduality and Transduality are states of being wherein an entity exists independently of, or qualitatively beyond, various dual systems, ranging from specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to duality itself on a conceptual level. For example, taking 0 and 1, the two possible states of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not knowledgeable on how Transduality works, but I do remember thinking Ultima Reality made the most sense last time we had a lengthy discussion.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

 

[KingPin0422]

Well, Yuri is no longer part of VS Battles, which leaves the Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength debate in an uncertain position. However, now that we're shifting gears to Transduality, I'll state my position if I haven't done so already:

• Type 1 can go. There's only one verse with characters that have it, for which I find the justification very flimsy.
• Type 2 and type 3 should remain separate. It is important that we make a distinction between transduality on a local scale and with dichotomies still existing on higher levels VS transduality on a universal scale and with any and all dichotomies being dissolved regardless of the ontological level. The former wouldn't inherently grant any tier and can be held by anyone in any tier - Demons from Shin Megami Tensei are a great example, ask a knowledgeable member for more information if you need it - but the latter is exclusive to 1-A and up on the premise that if you inhabit a state of being which is superior to any dichotomies existing on any and all levels, then that would be analogous to the "beyond any possible extension of a hierarchy" condition that reaches such tiers.
• I am not sure of what to do with type 4. Ultima once mentioned outside of this forum that he's been meaning to push for type 4 being removed for a while, but he hasn't elucidated on why. I don't know if that still holds up, anyway, as this comment was from over four months ago. I asked Ultima, and he replied that he does not plan to delete type 4 Transduality at the moment, so nevermind, I guess.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation.

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

What do you think about KingPin's post above?

 

[AKM sama]

Well, the conceptual manipulation revision was applied already. The other part of this thread was the irrelevant lifting strength, which I guess doesn't need to change since the discussion was not concluded.

I think it would be better to close this old thread. If we want to talk about transduality, it would be beneficial and garner more attention if done in a separate thread.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @KingPin0422

Would you be willing to collaborate to restart this thread in our staff forum with only the remaining tasks here mentioned in the first post?

 

[KingPin0422]

I can make the next thread for Transduality and what to do with it, unless I'm required to have DontTalk help me do so. The question is, are we supposed to only go over Transduality, or should Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength and Beyond-Dimensional Existence be included as well? I'd be fine with keeping BDE the same (especially with my current stance on the Transduality revision), but I think that it is important that we address the Irrelevant statistics.

If we can't do it now, though, then maybe in yet another part? It does seem that people only pay attention to one thing at a time when it comes to this thread, which is why we've only completed the Conceptual Manipulation portion after all this time. Focusing on one thing at a time might actually be a better way to go about this revision so that participants don't have so much information to digest all at once. It's up to what you guys think, though.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that the new thread should preferably explain all of the things we still have to revise here, and summarise the important parts of our discussion so far. Otherwise we will likely not get everything done.

We can then try to handle one subject at a time in the thread if necessary.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @KingPin0422

Would you be willing to collaborate to restart this thread in our staff forum with only the remaining tasks here mentioned in the first post?

I can make the next thread for Transduality and what to do with it, unless I'm required to have DontTalk help me do so. The question is, are we supposed to only go over Transduality, or should Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength and Beyond-Dimensional Existence be included as well? I'd be fine with keeping BDE the same (especially with my current stance on the Transduality revision), but I think that it is important that we address the Irrelevant statistics.

If we can't do it now, though, then maybe in yet another part? It does seem that people only pay attention to one thing at a time when it comes to this thread, which is why we've only completed the Conceptual Manipulation portion after all this time. Focusing on one thing at a time might actually be a better way to go about this revision so that participants don't have so much information to digest all at once. It's up to what you guys think, though.

@KingPin0422 @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @AKM sama @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus

I still greatly need help with this revision project, as it is extremely important to finish.

Irrelevant lifting strength should preferably not remain, among other issues.

 

[AKM sama]

Irrelevant lifting strength should preferably not remain

Well, there was discussion on it, and the decision went back and forth. Ultimately we didn't change anything on that regard. Conceptual Manipulation revision was already applied.

I think it's best to just close this thread as it's already old and nothing is going to happen here. If someone feels the need to revisit the topic later, they can always make a new thread with fresh arguments.

 

[Antvasima]

It is extremely important that we finish this revisions project, as several important aspects of the wiki currently do not make any sense, so I would much prefer if @DontTalkDT , @KingPin0422 , or somebody else creates a restart thread in our staff forum first.

 

[KingPin0422]

I can try to make a follow-up thread soon-ish. For now, let me try to summarize the arguments:

• Transduality: Type 1 seems to have unanimously been agreed to be removed. The distinction between type 2 and type 3 is still being debated: Ultima and I consider it important that we separate "transcending duality on a limited scale while still being bound by higher forms of such" from "transcending duality on all possible scales within the context of the verse", but DontTalk would rather merge them on the basis that we already merged "True Platonic Concepts" and "False Platonic Concepts" and Transduality shouldn't be treated any differently. I don't think anyone knows what to do with type 4.
• Beyond-Dimensional Existence: Originally, I wanted to just remove all the types and simply have it cover general aspatio-temporal physiology, with a name change to the power to reflect that. As of now, I'd probably keep it as it is to be consistent with my stance on Transduality, but not much discussion has been held over this, so...
• Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength: Yuri and Ultima went back and forth over Irrelevant Speed, and Tago and I have stances on it as well. Basically, Ultima and I support redefining Irrelevant Speed to accommodate characters where the very concept of "speed" is inapplicable in any sense, which usually refers to characters who perceive everything at all points in space and time (and any analogues thereof) simultaneously in a static wholeness. This is not to be confused with Omnipresence, which simply means that you occupy all points in space and time at once without necessarily trivializing the existence of such things (nor does Irrelevant Speed inherently imply being all-encompassing), or with Immeasurable Speed, which refers to a speed that is not measurable using S=D/T, but still qualifies as a form of speed. Yuri thinks this is a nonsense concept, while Tago merely considers it to be unworkable in a battleboard environment such as this wiki. Irrelevant Lifting Strength hasn't been talked about as much.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out.

Didn't @AKM sama already remove the old definition of Transduality Type 1 with his Bot account, or was that something else?

Beyond-Dimensional Existence seems to be a very odd fit with our current system.

Like Ultima, I also think that we need to redefine Irrelevant speed, to not get a huge gap in our types of definitions.

Irrelevant strength seems to be entirely dependent on "transcending dimensions" and our old definitions for 1-A though, so that should probably be removed.

 

[KingPin0422]

Didn't @AKM sama already remove the old definition of Transduality Type 1 with his Bot account, or was that something else?

That was Conceptual Manipulation, actually. Type 1 Transduality is still there.

Beyond-Dimensional Existence seems to be a very odd fit with our current system.

I guess...? I'm still open to just not having types of BDE, but then we'd have to give it a new name. Alternatively, we could nix type 3 and just have type 2 be a broad "transcends all extensions of dimensionality up to X tier" that applies to 1-A and up equally, since you can have dimensions even at such scales in the current system. In that way, you could theoretically also be 1-A and only qualify for type 1.

Like Ultima, I also think that we need to redefine Irrelevant speed, to not get a huge gap in our types of definitions.

Alright then.

Irrelevant strength seems to be entirely dependent on "transcending dimensions" and our old definitions for 1-A though, so that should probably be removed.

Well, lifting strength is a matter of how much mass/weight you can lift. Infinite LS means you can lift objects even if they have a mass of ∞, Immeasurable LS means you can lift objects which do not abide to our usual physical notions of mass and thus cannot be measured using such things, and Irrelevant LS, if we follow the pattern of Speed ratings, would logically mean that you have no reliance on the need for "mass" or "strength" at all. Characters who have Irrelevant Speed will probably always have Irrelevant Lifting Strength to go with it and vice versa, which I think is fine because it's not like the idea of giving one thing as a consequence of another thing is foreign to us or something we avoid doing.

---

Anyway, I'm going to go get some food and then I'll start typing out the third part of this revision. It may not be done today, though, depending on my motivation, but I hope it won't take terribly long.

 

[KingPin0422]

Alright, part 3 is ready to go.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out. I greatly appreciate it.

I will close this thread then.