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The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 2
- Thread starter KingPin0422
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I second that. I'm knowledgeable on Pokémon, but I'm not sure why simply changing their Concept Type's name from Type 2 to Type 1 would mean anything for Tier 1. Just changing the name doesn't change the fact that while Pokémon's Type 2 (soon to be Type 1) Concepts are independent and "above" Reality it's not to the extent necessary for Tier 1?
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I can't of anything in Pokémon that would be needed to be changed that would not be changed by the bot rewriting the Conceptual Manipulation on their pages.
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Thinking of it, can't a bot just rename Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1/2/3) into Adimensional Existence?
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Well, we do need to rename the page, but I am not sure to what yet.
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Adimensional Existence or Aspatio-Temporal Existence.
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Forgive my interruption, but "adimensional" implies that the character in question has no dimensions? as far as i know, 1-A CAN have dimensions, and 1-A is just transcending infinite layers.
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Since 1-A and above can be still counted as an extension of higher dimensional existence, i have an suggestion. IDK it would work or not.
Just merge beyond dimensional existence with higher dimensional existence .
In this case, the higher dimensional existence would have 2 parts, one that would refer to characters with upto an uncountably infinite spatial dimensions, and another part that refers to characters with , you know, that ℵ2 dimensions of 1-A and goes up to tier 0, which , as far as i heard from ultima, has mahlo cardinal spatial dimensions.
Just merge beyond dimensional existence with higher dimensional existence .
In this case, the higher dimensional existence would have 2 parts, one that would refer to characters with upto an uncountably infinite spatial dimensions, and another part that refers to characters with , you know, that ℵ2 dimensions of 1-A and goes up to tier 0, which , as far as i heard from ultima, has mahlo cardinal spatial dimensions.
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I would rather have them seperated.
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Yes, it seems better to just rename the Beyond-Dimensional Existence page instead.
@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT
Do you think that Aspatio-Temporal Existence would be an acceptable title, or do you prefer something else?
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Please summarise what you intend to do first.
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@Antvasima This.
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Thank you. That seems fine to me, although if I remember correctly, you should only adjust the irrelevant strength levels, not the ones for speed.
All others here: Has he understood correctly, or would you like to make any corrections?
All others here: Has he understood correctly, or would you like to make any corrections?
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- Thread starter
- #218
Well, other than that AKM should take care not to accidentally remove Irrelevant Speed from profiles that have it, I don't see anything wrong there.
I have a question, though: after we apply the Conceptual Manipulation revision and the removal of Irrelevant Lifting Strength, where do we go from here? We do still need to address Transduality and Irrelevant Speed, as promised earlier, but would it be a good idea to start these topics as soon as the conclusions we reached in this thread are applied?
I have a question, though: after we apply the Conceptual Manipulation revision and the removal of Irrelevant Lifting Strength, where do we go from here? We do still need to address Transduality and Irrelevant Speed, as promised earlier, but would it be a good idea to start these topics as soon as the conclusions we reached in this thread are applied?
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I wholeheartedly agree with Ant on this.
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I am done with the first part of the revision (a good number of pages did not have any type listed under conceptual manipulation). Feel free to edit the Conceptual Manipulation page to update the types if you haven't already.
I will try to finish this later.
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Done:
vsbattles.fandom.com
Conceptual Manipulation
Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat-applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Hey, if I can just really quickly say something about Irrelevant Lifting Strength before we nuke it: I think that we are being hasty with removing it right now. I know that this is sudden and kind of last-minute, but if it's not too late, I want us to reconsider what we're doing.
To make a long story short, Aeyu came to me on Discord the other day asking why Irrelevant Lifting Strength is being removed. To be honest, I had assumed that there was some discussion held over its necessity, and I never looked back to check the facts. It wasn't until she complained to me about it that I decided to look over why we agreed to remove it, and...
Nothing. No discussion was had, no alternatives were considered. Someone simply raised the concern of Irrelevant LS's stay when Irrelevant Speed was being nominated for removal, and people just blindly agreed to remove it on the grounds that it seemed like Irrelevant Speed would be deleted as well. But since that is not happening (at least not yet), I feel that this no longer applies.
In short, I would like to give Irrelevant LS a chance alongside Irrelevant Speed, and I think that there should be a thread dedicated to both as a continuation of this thread, in order to (hopefully) get the best results, whether we salvage them or decide to erase them anyway.
To make a long story short, Aeyu came to me on Discord the other day asking why Irrelevant Lifting Strength is being removed. To be honest, I had assumed that there was some discussion held over its necessity, and I never looked back to check the facts. It wasn't until she complained to me about it that I decided to look over why we agreed to remove it, and...
Nothing. No discussion was had, no alternatives were considered. Someone simply raised the concern of Irrelevant LS's stay when Irrelevant Speed was being nominated for removal, and people just blindly agreed to remove it on the grounds that it seemed like Irrelevant Speed would be deleted as well. But since that is not happening (at least not yet), I feel that this no longer applies.
In short, I would like to give Irrelevant LS a chance alongside Irrelevant Speed, and I think that there should be a thread dedicated to both as a continuation of this thread, in order to (hopefully) get the best results, whether we salvage them or decide to erase them anyway.
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Tbf the problem is more giving a chance to Irrelevant speed to begin with.
Irrelevant LS serves no actual purpose and the reason why nobody raised an objection is exactly because of how there's no reason we should keep it.
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isn't irrelevant speed, strength, etc are basically just to show a distinction between 1-A and aboves and the rest of tiering system?
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Yeah, except type 10 Immortality was deleted for the exact reason that it's only purpose was "being 1-A".
Being 1-A doesn't suddenly change how speed standard works, nor LS ones, nor immortality ones.
Besides, all of these are just the remnant of an outdated system nobody bothered to delete.
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- Thread starter
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She has her own ideas for how to define Irrelevant Speed and Lifting Strength. I've gone over Speed already: she defines Irrelevant Speed as a rating wherein the concepts of distance (space) and time simply don't apply at all, in contrast with Immeasurable Speed which means freely moving along the time axis as if it were just another spatial dimension (and thus being unable to be measured with the speed formula, hence the name), but ultimately still depending on space and time for movement. Essentially, the default speed rating for aspatio-temporal/adimensional characters (which 1-A characters wouldn't necessarily be), although Aspatio-Temporal Existence wouldn't be a requirement for Irrelevant Speed.
As for Irrelevant Lifting Strength, I'll admit that I don't actually know what she wants there. I have a guess as to what it is, but just to be sure, I'm going to ask her, and then I'll make sure that DontTalk knows what we're talking about before I go through with the thread for Irrelevant statistics.
But why do they have to be deleted? Why can't they simply be remade to fit the new standards? Type 10 Immortality got axed because it was a power that 1-A characters got just for being 1-A, and because no one was able to come up with a replacement that makes sense and isn't restricted to anyone who reaches a certain point in our tiering system. Removing type 10 immortality hasn't caused any problems for the site, either.
But for Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength, how do we know for certain that the same stuff applies here? Especially Speed, since multiple ideas for a new definition of Irrelevant Speed were thrown around, all of which have had some amount of approval. The one that currently has the most acceptance is Aeyu's version, which I already explained at the beginning of this post and which I personally support, even though it does still have opponents.
All in all, I don't think "because it's 1-A" is a convincing argument against something existing when there are viable alternatives that don't have anything to do with being a certain tier. At the very least, those alternatives should be considered, and if we conclude that none of them work, then sure, go ahead and delete the whole thing. But if we find one that does work, why shouldn't we use it?
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Okay. I agree about irrelevant speed being redefined in that manner, and am willing to listen about the lifting strength.
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Because we are inventing new reasonning for the sake of it. It is not any different from making up new tiers based on flawed basis.
How would it create any problem not to invent stuff for the sake of it?
Besides, this justification is merely combining the two previous speed ratings.
Are these alternatives relevant? Based on something ?
This is the entire thing.
We aren't some meta physicians or litterary expert inventing new formulas, we only base ourselves on what already exist.
The moment we invent criterias based on our personal reasonning is the moment we accept headcanon as a way to index characters, which is against the very goal of the site.
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Them not applying is more stuff linked to soul or consciousness in general.
However things like ignoring the concept of distance is Infinite speed for example, but it isn't higher than crossing an infinite one in no time; it's just different "way" of doing the same thing.
If we want such things to pass as speed requirement, we would need some concrete basis, be it in fiction or metaphysic.
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I'd say so, yes. As it stands, the ideal model of a character with Immeasurable speed would be someone who perceives the time-axis in the same way that you and I perceive the spatial dimensions of the universe, and can move through it at will, or a being who exists in multiple temporal dimensions rather than just one. An example of the former, for the matter, would be the Bulk Beings from Interstellar, or the Hounds of Tindalos from the Cthulhu Mythos, both of which have this characteristic attributed to the fact they live in a higher-dimensional space that exists orthogonal to the whole spacetime continuum, instead of being bound to its temporal dimension.
And that's where the difference between Immeasurable and Irrelevant would come into play, as I see it. The former would imply movement that lies strictly outside of the temporal dimension, but still abides by some other form of time and sequence, which may not necessarily be a linear one, and hence it's just immeasurable: A characteristic which exists, but that we can't quantify through the usual speed equation. Irrelevant, on the other hand, implies that the concepts of space and time flat-out don't exist, and so there is nothing to be quantified there to begin with, like Derp said up there. Conflating the latter into the former misses that point entirely.
If you want some fictional precedent for that, then I can name the Cthulhu Mythos again: The Hounds of Tindalos, as mentioned above, inhabit a higher reality from which the timeline is perceived as a completed monolith, and a spatial dimension which they can freely move through at any point, but regardless they are still operating by some form of change and movement and are very much distinct from the state in which, say, the Ultimate Gods exist, which is just an immutable totality where time, space and change in all of their forms are illusions, and don't actually apply to them in any way. (Granted, those are currently rated as Omnipresent, but that's one of the things I plan on removing, in any case, so the example is valid enough)
I can also point to The Elder Scrolls, where the cosmology is divided into linear time, which binds all mortal entities, and the "Untime" that the Gods exist in, which is basically a state where linearity, duration, cause, consequence and sequential sensations in general vanish altogether, and all events are always happening all at once, with no distinction between Past, Present and Future, and yet even that is still operating by fractured, incomprehensible concepts of time and space created by Akatosh and Lorkhan.
People who attained CHIM, on the other hand, are unbound by both time and untime, and reside in a state of pure possibility from before any laws and restrictions were made by the Gods, where Will and Action can't exist at all, and Vivec in particular uses it to access a "non-spatial space" where he can observe all of existence and affect it from a vantage point. So, yeah, I'd say that would be another example where the distinction between Immeasurable and Irrelevant would be important to note.
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Fine for this.
This is the problem.
We equate things not be quantifiable or not having anything to quantify to them being higher form of something, which is wrong in pretty much all situations.
A good example would be moving in a timeless void. We litteraly concluded that they weren't usable for speed feat, but the proposal for Irrelevant is now different: "concepts of time and space flat out doesnt exist, so there's nothing to be quantified".
Timeless Voids litteraly fit this criteria more than the characters we would scale to it, mainly because it isn't considered as a speed thing to begin with.
Thing is that it never was treated as speed though.
It just treats of the nature of reality, and you don't have a difference being made between the Hound and them
(the Hound being one-time characters to begin with, which couldn't move through space correctly).
There's not much difference between the Hound and Nyarlathotep in term of how they move or interact with the lower world in that regard.
I don't know TES, but your example here is more of the place being outside of it cosmologicaly.
There's nothing which treat it as a higher form of speed beyond the notions that already exist.
Regarding the whole "change is illusion" (since both examples are based on it) this school of thought didn't made it into a new form of speed to begin with, just the same speed apprehended from another POV.
What we lack is still the idea that it is speed, and not some correlation we're making just because both are linked to time and distance here.
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