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KingPin0422

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This is to be continued from here. And yes, I have permission to post this thread, as you will be able to see near the end of the other one.

Introduction​

In the wake of the tiering system revision, performed about a year and a half ago, not only did a handful of characters have to be readjusted to fit the new framework, but multiple powers and even a rating that appears on two scales were rendered outdated. Unfortunately, out of those, only Beyond-Dimensional Existence was given a revision, while the others were left to rot. This project aims to rectify these neglected aspects of our system, bringing much needed revisions to them, including ones not necessarily tied to the aforementioned system revision.

The Topics to be Discussed​

Because this thread succeeds another thread (linked above), a synopsis of the topics and agreements is needed, and furthermore, as soon as all loose ends are tied up regarding the discussion phase, we will need to organize a method for applying the changes, which will require careful planning and coordination in order to minimize errors. Without further ado, we shall open up the second phase of this discussion with the topic of one certain rating that appears on two of our statistic scales.

Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength​

The Irrelevant ratings for speed and lifting strength are currently regarded as ratings specific to physical movement or strength that reaches a 1-A scale or greater. This is quite obviously a remainder of the era when 1-A was treated as a special tier that exceeded any scientific scale and could not even be approximated by our comprehension, and it got its name from the idea that speed and strength simply do not matter to 1-A characters on any level. Now that we have abandoned that notion in favor of a mathematically grounded interpretation of "beyond dimensions," we have agreed to reevaluate the meaning of this rating.

After a good amount of discussion between multiple knowledgeable members, we reached the conclusion that the "Irrelevant" rating as a whole is simply unnecessary. There is never really a point where any statistic is completely inapplicable, as the name "Irrelevant" would suggest, and although multiple new definitions were considered for Irrelevant Speed, none of them gained significant traction:
  • DontTalk's proposal, wherein "Irrelevant Speed" is defined as movement over something that is superior to an infinite number of time dimensions.
  • Aeyu's proposal, wherein "Irrelevant Speed" is defined as movement over an "area" that encompasses or exceeds any "distance" or "time" on any level within a given formal system.
  • Antvasima's proposal, wherein "Irrelevant Speed" is defined as existing in an eternal "now" that encompasses any "then" or "will be" on any level within the verse.
Unless the staff are convinced to reconsider these propositions and accept one of them, Irrelevant Speed will cease to exist. As for Irrelevant Lifting Strength, all parties involved agreed to remove it from the lifting strength scale, although relatively little discussion was had regarding it.

Conceptual Manipulation​

Not only is the distinction between "false" and "true" Platonic concepts an arbitrary decision, but it has fueled the misconception that Plato's theory of Forms is inherently 1-A regardless of any other context (or lack thereof), leading to innumerable attempts to upgrade several verses based on vague, poorly justified "evidence" of Platonic Forms being in the verse. As such, the participants from part 1 all have agreed to merge types 2 and 1 for Conceptual Manipulation and renumber the other types accordingly.

However, we have not stopped there. We are currently looking into divorcing the types of this power from Greek philosophy and generalizing them to broader categories. The short of it is that there are other schools of thought that follow certain attributes not unlike the concepts proposed by Plato, yet are still remarkably different from his particular philosophy, such as Jungian archetypes and Kantian noumena. Plato's Forms inspired both of these definitions of concepts, and Jungian psychology also borrows some aspects of Kant's philosophy. What all three have in common, however, is that they describe abstract and universal concepts that govern the fundamental principles of the universe, lay beyond the reach of consciousness, and exist independently of the objects that participate in these concepts.

This only pertains to type 1 concepts, but I think one can understand the core of the argument: that each level of abstract concepts can take on many different forms and is not strictly limited to Platonic or Aristotelian (or "Lesser Realist") philosophy. We already allow leeway in how concepts fit into our schema, so this revision will most likely not lead to anyone gaining or losing Conceptual Manipulation, but this would officially eliminate equalizing anything that represents an independent, abstract, and universal concept to a Platonic Form, for example. You can see a draft for the new Conceptual Manipulation page here.

Transduality​

As with Conceptual Manipulation, the division between "false" and "true" general transduality will be eliminated. Additionally, specific transduality should be removed simply because of the fact that it is obscure: to wit, there is only one verse with characters that currently have type 1 transduality, and it does not have many characters that have it, either. The only type that is still up in the air is type 4, as it has been suggested to remove it as well, which would ultimately leave Transduality as a typeless power if accepted, but someone wants to prove that it is needed using examples from at least three verses - they simply have yet to do so.

Beyond-Dimensional Existence​

Yes, this power will be revised again. In the previous thread, it was decided to rename the power to "Aspatio-Temporal Existence" to accommodate the changes to 1-A and above. However, I would like to make an argument for possibly doing to types 1 and 2 here what we are going to do to types 1 and 2 for Conceptual Manipulation and to types 2 and 3 for Transduality, as well as removing type 3. Regarding the former, it seems to be no different from the other two cases I mentioned: one is inherently 1-A, the other is applied to lower tiers. As for the latter, well, it's just type 2 but High 1-A (or 0). It does not seem useful at all.

Also, the "Possible Uses" section ought to be updated, since the Irrelevant ratings (as discussed above) will most likely be removed, but I also think that the whole thing with overlapping with stuff like Acausality and Nonexistent Physiology should be there and not in the description for type 0 Beyond-Dimensional Existence.

Conclusion​

  • Irrelevant Speed and Lifting Strength are going to be removed.
  • Types 1 and 2 for Conceptual Manipulation will be consolidated, and the types in general may be modified to not strictly follow Greek philosophy.
  • Types 2 and 3 for Transduality will be consolidated, and type 1 will be erased. The jury is still out on type 4.
  • Given the above two, types 1 and 2 for Beyond-Dimensional Existence should be consolidated. Type 3 also needs to go. The "Possible Uses" section deserves an update.
Significant amounts of discussion between knowledgeable members is necessary to move these revisions forward. Once conclusions are reached, these members should then coordinate an effort to edit all of the affected pages, doing their best not to make any mistakes, or fixing them if they do.
 
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not a staff but a suggestion. Shouldn`t there be some examples for each type of concept manipulation in the new draff. It will be easier to explain it with examples
 
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Tbf I feel like Transduality as a whole should be removed.

Still agree with first 2 issues, neutral on last.
 
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Tbf I feel like Transduality as a whole should be removed.

Still agree with first 2 issues, neutral on last.
I personally don't think that transduality should be removed since some verse really use it somewhat correctly for their being. But it need to be tell what he do here, seem like praticaly nobody know what that do in vsbattle.
 

Antvasima

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Hmm. The entire idea with a restarted thread was that you would provide a summary to the discussion and conclusions so far. I am not sure if that has been properly done here.

Anyway, @Elizhaa @Schnee_One @Armorchompy @DarkDragonMedeus @Ultima_Reality @Duedate8898 @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @DemonGodMitchAubin @Dino_Ranger_Black @DontTalkDT @Sera_EX @Ionliosite @Promestein @Mr._Bambu @Ogbunabali @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Qawsedf234 and @AKM sama would you be willing to continue to help out here please?
 

Antvasima

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Never mind. There seems to be summaries provided. Sorry about the misunderstanding.
 
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DontTalkDT

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I'm ok with transduality becoming typeless I think. One could consider renaming it to non-duality and have non-duality itself as one type and transduality as another, but maybe that's an issue for another thread. In any case, I agree we need to explain what exactly it does in battle. My opinion on that is that it is transcendence (in a tiering system like sense) + whatever the verse specifies. Nothing more.... well, maybe some limited resistance to logic manipulation.
Guess I'm ok with removing irrelevant speed.
Also ok with merging type 1 & 2 of concepts. Neutral on renaming the types. Names are just names. At best they state what we were inspired by. Personally, I never viewed it as equalizing things to Plato's ideas.
Aspatio-Temporal Existence sounds good. I would be ok with making this typeless.
 
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Tbf if transduality is a mere transcendance (which is something I believe too), it should be a justification of tier rather than a power.

Also I think it's better to rename the concepts by how they are like in the draft. While most experienced users do know that it isn't limited to Plato and Aristote; a awful lot think that because it has this name, it is the same.
I mean, not like we lost everything with this, and it helps understanding them just by name.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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The OP is looking well organized as well as DT's input, but as I already said; I do not think I will be much help hear given how over my head the super high up tiers and abilities are.
 
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Tbf if transduality is a mere transcendance (which is something I believe too), it should be a justification of tier rather than a power.

Also I think it's better to rename the concepts by how they are like in the draft. While most experienced users do know that it isn't limited to Plato and Aristote; a awful lot think that because it has this name, it is the same.
I mean, not like we lost everything with this, and it helps understanding them just by name.
The transduality should be a thing case by case but yeah we can use it as just some tiering transcendance if we don't have better explaination in the verse, but at least it should add resistance to at least concept, to logic and add acausality type 5(since transcende concept of causality) i think. (Because if it was just a mere transcending of think like space/time it will doesn't need that much all the rest of duality even less does it Conceptualy)
 
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The transduality should be a thing case by case but yeah we can use it as just some tiering transcendance if we don't have better explaination in the verse, but at least it should add resistance to at least concept, to logic and add acausality type 5(since transcende concept of causality) i think. (Because if it was just a mere transcending of think like space/time it will doesn't need that much all the rest of duality even less does it Conceptualy)
Meh, I'm neutral on it because of how NLF-ish it can be.
 
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Meh, I'm neutral on it because of how NLF-ish it can be.
For what? transcending a concept have praticaly always add resistance to it (people that transcende concept of death have résistance to death etc), acausality type 5 is the transcendance of concept of causality for what i understand, and logic well is because is a thing i have see for most of the transdual one i have see here.

And the cas by case depend like DT tell to what the verse explain or show about it
 
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For what? transcending a concept have praticaly always add resistance to it (people that transcende concept of death have résistance to death etc), acausality type 5 is the transcendance of concept of causality for what i understand, and logic well is because is a thing i have see for most of the transdual one i have see here.

And the cas by case depend like DT tell to what the verse explain or show about it
Thing is, you would virtually have resistances to everything the lower plane has, which is technically the same as any transcendance so far.
 

Everything12

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The problem I have with Transduality, and other such powers, is that when we give a character Transduality when they have evidence of it, we also give them Abilities and Powers that they haven't shown feats of under the logic that anyone who truly has Transduality must have these things even if they haven't shown feats of such.

I'm in agreement with merging Type 1 and 2 Concepts, their only difference is one is 1-A which doesn't seem relevant enough for a separate Type to me, and renaming them so people stop going "these Concepts are called Platonic so they should be this Type even without feats" is also something I agree with.

Irrelevant Lifting Strength being removed seems fine, and as for Speed I do think it should be changed not removed, as there are plenty of Characters whose movement far exceeds Immeasurable's ability to move through Time with Speed.

No clue about BDE, besides agreeing with the idea that any Type that's simply the Type below it but 1-A should be merged.
 

Antvasima

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Everything12 makes sense to me. I would also prefer to change the definition of Irrelevant speed, rather than remove the statistic altogether.
 
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The problem I have with Transduality, and other such powers, is that when we give a character Transduality when they have evidence of it, we also give them Abilities and Powers that they haven't shown feats of under the logic that anyone who truly has Transduality must have these things even if they haven't shown feats of such.
It's why i ask about we should tell what it give at minimum(really minimum) and after tell it that it would be case by case.

Thing is, you would virtually have resistances to everything the lower plane has, which is technically the same as any transcendance so far.
I mean praticaly all the transdual are alredy 1-A without that and some transdual still get resistance to the same plane in some verse
 
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I will point out Transduality isnt mere "transcendence". Its derived from non duality which means to be above all distinctions, usually involving becoming "One" with all things and totality. It has its uses beyond simply tiering.
 
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I think the main issue with transduality is that it places importance on verses subscribing to a philosophy where distinctions are described via dualism, despite the fact that the idea of using multiple degrees of truth in descriptions of qualities like say, hotness, is a normal opinion. For the sake of verse equalisation it would be better if non-duality fell into a rewritten omnipresence or NEP esque page.
 
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I think the main issue with transduality is that it places importance on verses subscribing to a philosophy where distinctions are defined via dualism, despite the fact that the idea of multiple degrees of truth existing in descriptions like say, hotness, is a normal opinion. For the sake of verse equalisation it would be better if non-duality fell into a rewritten omnipresence or NEP esque page.
Thats.... Not really what transduality pertains to. It wouldnt be an "extra" degree of hotness beyond the norm, it would be all degrees of hotness as one simultaneously. Duality pertains to distinction as a whole not just black and white reflections like "Hot or Cold"

Honestly the name itself is quite misleading and id recommend changing the name to "Non-Duality"
 
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Thats.... Not really what transduality pertains to. It wouldnt be an "extra" degree of hotness beyond the norm, it would he all degrees of hotness as one simultaneously. Duality pertains to distinction as a wjole not just black and white reflections like "Hot or Cold"

Honestly the name itself is quite misleading and id recommend changing the name to "Non-Duality"
(I'm gonna mostly ignore the first sentence since that wasn't really what I was saying anyway, even though I could have made that argument considering the wiki definition of "transduality")

The problem in this argument is that transduality on the wiki is specifically described as standing "independent of or qualitatively beyond" a dual system, which includes things other than non duality as you describe it and, depending on how the description is interpreted, doesn't include it to begin with.

Even if it was the case that your definition was correct I would still have a point when I say duality doesn't necessarily mean a dichotomy/ opposites on different sides of a spectrum (although in practice it can be), as by definition duality explicitly refers to systems containing only two elements; the name would be confusing and the current requirement for evidence of a specifically binary system being transcended/rendered obsolete or whatever would be opposed to verse equalisation.
 
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"Thats.... Not really what transduality pertains to. It wouldnt be an "extra" degree of hotness beyond the norm, it would be all degrees of hotness as one simultaneously"

I should clarify that this was not what I was arguing for, I was only saying that a transduality/ non-duality power would imply that to be beyond distinction said verses would have to follow a system of binary logic, and references to such do seem to be required in CRTs.

"Duality pertains to distinction as a whole not just black and white reflections like "Hot or Cold""

This is actually addressing my point but a duality does indeed usually refer to a system containing only two, diametrically opposed elements instead of two opposites on a spectrum (it can mean that in practice but I don't know why that's being assumed).

"Honestly the name itself is quite misleading and id recommend changing the name to "Non-Duality""

That wasn't really a point of contention but since you allude to it yourself twice I think it's fair for me to point out that the wiki explicitly states transduality to be existing "outside" or "qualitatively beyond" duality, not necessarily rendering those distinctions obsolete. If you wish to argue based on a different definition then the transduality page itself would have to be different, as it stands
 
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"Thats.... Not really what transduality pertains to. It wouldnt be an "extra" degree of hotness beyond the norm, it would be all degrees of hotness as one simultaneously"

I should clarify that this was not what I was arguing for, I was only saying that a transduality/ non-duality power would imply that to be beyond distinction said verses would have to follow a system of binary logic, and references to such do seem to be required in CRTs.

"Duality pertains to distinction as a whole not just black and white reflections like "Hot or Cold""

This is actually addressing my point but a duality does indeed usually refer to a system containing only two, diametrically opposed elements instead of two opposites on a spectrum (it can mean that in practice but I don't know why that's being assumed).

"Honestly the name itself is quite misleading and id recommend changing the name to "Non-Duality""

That wasn't really a point of contention but since you allude to it yourself twice I think it's fair for me to point out that the wiki explicitly states transduality to be existing "outside" or "qualitatively beyond" duality, not necessarily rendering those distinctions obsolete. If you wish to argue based on a different definition then the transduality page itself would have to be different, as it stands
1. I mean its a baseline that all verses follow a form of logic or flow of reason. For it to not be the case you'd have to give evidence for that rather than the other way around.

2. This is just wrong simple as that. Duality is all encompassing over all distinction, the reductive "only two" description is a simplification for what duality pertains to, mainly addressing the primary exact opposites. The varying degrees between opposites aren't just thrown out the window like that. That much should be obvious.

3. Being "Beyond" or "Outside" duality inherently makes those distinctions obsolete. If you exist outside the confines of distinction, you yourself can not be distinguished or identified separately, thus rendering notions of duality irrelevant to your very existence.
 
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1. I mean its a baseline that all verses follow a form of logic or flow of reason. For it to not be the case you'd have to give evidence for that rather than the other way around.

2. This is just wrong simple as that. Duality is all encompassing over all distinction, the reductive "only two" description is a simplification for what duality pertains to, mainly addressing the primary exact opposites. The varying degrees between opposites aren't just thrown out the window like that. That much should be obvious.

3. Being "Beyond" or "Outside" duality inherently makes those distinctions obsolete. If you exist outside the confines of distinction, you yourself can not be distinguished or identified separately, thus rendering notions of duality irrelevant to your very existence.
Are you saying classical logic isn’t... logical? There is many valued/fuzzy logic and logic using dualism (which is what you seem to call a reduction), my point is that clear references to dualism aren’t required to describe a certain state (for example, if a verse references non dualism of the Advaita Vedanta variety that would just be omnipresence insofar as what is external to the self in maya is described).

Sure a character being beyond a duality would mean they can’t be described in terms of it, please provide an argument for why that’s always the same thing as being both sides of the duality at once because the page literally makes an argument to the contrary with the binary example.
 
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Are you saying classical logic isn’t... logical? There is many valued/fuzzy logic and logic using dualism (which is what you seem to call a reduction), my point is that clear references to dualism aren’t required to describe a certain state (for example, if a verse references non dualism of the Advaita Vedanta variety that would just be omnipresence insofar as what is external to the self in maya is described).

Sure a character being beyond a duality would mean they can’t be described in terms of it, please provide an argument for why that’s always the same thing as being both sides of the duality at once because the page literally makes an argument to the contrary with the binary example.
1. Duality pertains to classical logic as well. I don't know why you bring many valued and non classical logic into the mix because its irrelevant. Classical logic still contains distinction which is what Duality pertains to. Also the Non-Dualism of Advaita Vedanta is no where near as simple as that. You became literally one with all things as Self is God and God is Self, and since all things have a Self, God encompasses them all. Its metaphyisical oneness and return to the ultimate reality. Saying its simple Omnipresence is very reductive.

2. If you encompass all dualities and extensions of dual systems you quite literally cannot be identified nor distguinished. If I were to describe a transdual being, I would be using reductive vocabulary for my words cannot come close to describing a being who encompasses all forms distinction. When you are all encompassing over distinction, this normally implies you are all encompassing over the systems used to define reality as well as the hierarchy of the universe. This is why we give higher tierings to beings who are all encompassing in this way (An example being The God Energy, and The Clear Light. The Clear Light contains the dichotomy of God and The Mother as illusory distinctions of itself in this state of complete oneness, making both distinctions irrelevant to its existence)
 
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1. Duality pertains to classical logic as well. I don't know why you bring many valued and non classical logic into the mix because its irrelevant. Classical logic still contains distinction which is what Duality pertains to. Also the Non-Dualism of Advaita Vedanta is no where near as simple as that. You became literally one with all things as Self is God and God is Self, and since all things have a Self, God encompasses them all. Its metaphyisical oneness and return to the ultimate reality. Saying its simple Omnipresence is very reductive.

2. If you encompass all dualities and extensions of dual systems you quite literally cannot be identified nor distguinished. If I were to describe a transdual being, I would be using reductive vocabulary for my words cannot come close to describing a being who encompasses all forms distinction. When you are all encompassing over distinction, this normally imples you are all encompassing over the systems used to define reality as well as the hierarchy of the universe. This is why we give higher tierings to beings who are all encompassing in this way (An example being The God Energy, and The Clear Light. The Clear Light contains the dichotomy of God and The Mother as illusory distinctions of itself in this state of complete oneness, making both distinctions irrelevant to its existence)
There are also some cases where they transcend many non-dualistic values that exists independently from any extensions of a dual system and either embody or unbound or transcend these values and the ones that exists above them on an incomprehensible scale. Such as the Wuji and Taiji

Which i agree with @ShivaShakti
 

Starter_Pack

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This kind of goes over my head, like, by a lot. However, the summarization provided by KingPin, as well as the additional statement from DontTalk, allows me to make as much sense of this as I can, and I agree with the points everyone seems to have no problems with, removing Irrelevant Lifting Strength, renaming Beyond-Dimensional Existence to Aspatio-Temporal Existence, and combining and reclassifying the definition of Conceptual Manipulation to not confuse people on simply referring to the Platonic Form. (I think that's what's being referred to...)

I remain neutral to Irrelevant speed, but I'm leaning towards keeping it due to Antvasima and Everything's thoughts on it, even though I have no clue how to rationalize it. And it seems as if the concept of Transduality is still being discussed and no one has really touched on basically every other modification to BDE proposed by KingPin, so I have nothing really to say on this for the time being.
 
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My actual argument was subject to a miscommunication between me and ShivaShakti (which has now been cleared up on discord) however I do not feel the need to continue arguing on this particular thread as frankly the debate never related to 1-A power revisions in the first place. Issues concerning trans duality/non duality as a power or even issues concerning things like type 4 should, as ShivaShakti pointed out on discord, be solved in different threads.
 

Antvasima

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This is an extremely important topic, so it should almost exclusively be staff only in order to keep on track and get anywhere. Regular members should only respond if they have something crucially relevant to say.
 

Qawsedf234

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  • Irrelevant Strength: Should go. There's really no reason to keep it around
  • Irrelevant Speed: I honestly feel like Immeasurable covers everything this speed does. I don't see a reason to keep it when Immeasurable can basically do the same thing
  • CM: I honestly really like the changes. Though we probably have to note that a tier for such a thing would come from the universe in question rather than any generic rating.
  • Transduality: Personally I'm for keeping Type 1 and combine 2/3. Type 4 I'm not sure on, because I don't really understand the philosophic base it comes from. But from what I do understand it can probably just be rolled into 2/3.
  • Beyond Dimensional Existence: I'm fine with both the name change and making it more generic as a powerset rather than having tiers or levels.
 
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  • Irrelevant Strength: Should go. There's really no reason to keep it around
  • Irrelevant Speed: I honestly feel like Immeasurable covers everything this speed does. I don't see a reason to keep it when Immeasurable can basically do the same thing
  • CM: I honestly really like the changes. Though we probably have to note that a tier for such a thing would come from the universe in question rather than any generic rating.
  • Transduality: Personally I'm for keeping Type 1 and combine 2/3. Type 4 I'm not sure on, because I don't really understand the philosophic base it comes from. But from what I do understand it can probably just be rolled into 2/3.
  • Beyond Dimensional Existence: I'm fine with both the name change and making it more generic as a powerset rather than having tiers or levels.
Basically Type 4 comes from distinctions of "Many Valued" Logic.

So lets say you have these two values: True and False. Many Valued Logic would insert a third value that is neither true nor false, and is completely it's own entity that isn't connected to either. Not half true or half false, just it's own value. So you'd have True, False, and Unknown Value here. It would get into more complex systems and the existence of more Truth Values. This can extend into logic with infinite Truth Values and so on. An example of many valued logic would be being both Dual and Nondual simultaneously. It get's into non linear descriptors and eventually just gets too complex to even comprehend.

However, I personally believe the Transduality discussion should be reserved for a different thread. It's a complex topic on it's own already.
 

KingPin0422

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An update to my views on Aspatio-Temporal Existence and Irrelevant Speed:

I am beginning to think that Aspatio-Temporal Existence should simply not have types at all. Type 1 is just type 0 plus transcendence, type 2 is just type 1 plus being 1-A in size, and type 3 is just type 2 but High 1-A or 0. These types are all redundant because they are distinguished only by being transcendent to some degree, even though transcendence says more about the size you have than it does about anything else related to your physiology. If one Low 1-C character is defined as simply being detached from 5-D spacetime, and you compare them to another Low 1-C character who is transcendent over 4-D spacetime, you would be unable to find any relevant ontological differences between the natures of their aspatio-temporal existences. As for types 2 and 3, well, they are literally just given for being a certain tier via size. They are not special and should not exist.

As for Irrelevant Speed, I have talked with a few people on Discord regarding this, including Ultima, and we are thinking that perhaps it can simply be redefined instead of totally erased. We have agreed that a better definition of Irrelevant Speed is that of a rating for characters to whom the concepts of space and time do not apply, i.e., characters who have Aspatio-Temporal Existence. To explain, speed is defined in terms of distance (space) and time, using the equation S=D/T. If D=∞ or T=0, then S=∞, which is indexed as Infinite Speed. Immeasurable Speed entails being able to move throughout time as easily as one can move throughout space, so S=D/T is no longer applicable at this point as distance and time would be interchangeable from your perspective. Irrelevant Speed is when distance/space and time are just completely ignored, thus rendering speed, well, irrelevant to you.

For the record, Irrelevant Speed probably cannot be compared to Immeasurable Speed. On paper, it would seem straightforward: the former is unbounded by the applications of space and time while the latter is not, so Irrelevant > Immeasurable. Indeed, if Irrelevant Speed is relative to a higher-dimensional spacetime than Immeasurable Speed, or perhaps even the same spacetime, then this absolutely would be the case. The thing is, an aspatio-temporal character is not always going to be stronger than a higher-dimensional character, or else we would have many more people in 1-A, so we should not assume that they will necessarily be faster, either. In fact, any fight between one character who is bound to spacetime and another character who is aspatio-temporal will likely be inconclusive regardless of AP if we lack evidence that one or both fighters can interact with each other.
 

Antvasima

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Thank you for the evaluation. I also think that it is better to redefine irrelevant speed, although we need to explain it in an easy to understand manner in our Speed page.
 

Antvasima

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Undimensioned Existence perhaps, but it may be misunderstood.
 

KingPin0422

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To be honest, I don't remember why "Aspatio-Temporal Existence" was chosen. Probably because of some distinction we made between "aspatial + atemporal" and "adimensional", but I can't name a single verse with dimensions that are not spatial nor temporal. I'm open to suggestions for better names.

As for Irrelevant Speed, I know Sera told me on Discord that she would rather have N/A for that and other things. To be honest, I can list off a few arguments to support this suggestion:
  1. I already said in my previous post that Irrelevant Speed wouldn't be linearly better than Immeasurable Speed, and I'm pretty sure the main speed scale is meant to be strictly linear.
  2. We already have Omnipresence as an "other" speed rating for characters who encompass everything on whatever scale. It would have to override N/A where applicable, though.
I'm sure that someone may be able to poke holes in her proposal, but it's something we can consider, especially since "inapplicable" (for which N/A is shorthand) and "irrelevant" are largely synonymous.
 

Antvasima

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To be honest, I don't remember why "Aspatio-Temporal Existence" was chosen. Probably because of some distinction we made between "aspatial + atemporal" and "adimensional", but I can't name a single verse with dimensions that are not spatial nor temporal. I'm open to suggestions for better names.

As for Irrelevant Speed, I know Sera told me on Discord that she would rather have N/A for that and other things. To be honest, I can list off a few arguments to support this suggestion:
  1. I already said in my previous post that Irrelevant Speed wouldn't be linearly better than Immeasurable Speed, and I'm pretty sure the main speed scale is meant to be strictly linear.
  2. We already have Omnipresence as an "other" speed rating for characters who encompass everything on whatever scale. It would have to override N/A where applicable, though.
I'm sure that someone may be able to poke holes in her proposal, but it's something we can consider, especially since "inapplicable" (for which N/A is shorthand) and "irrelevant" are largely synonymous.
I would also prefer a better name than aspatio-temporal existence.

Omnipresence is usually defined as being everwhere at once, not everywhen. Perhaps we could change Irrelevant to Omnitemporal instead, for characters that transcend time? I am fine with keeping Irrelevant though, even if it is not a linear increase in stature, so we have "all" types of speed covered.
 
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I think we should do types of omnipresence and all for the "everywhen" issue.
I was already planning a way to classify omniscience and omnipresence by scale, which would eventually include this.

Imo we technically have "all" (or most) of them covered, to the point of having some (like Irrelevant) who aren't even speed and more of an arbitrary decision.
 

KingPin0422

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I would also prefer a better name than aspatio-temporal existence.
I suppose "Adimensional Existence" as Planck suggested above is fine.
Omnipresence is usually defined as being everwhere at once, not everywhen. Perhaps we could change Irrelevant to Omnitemporal instead, for characters that transcend time? I am fine with keeping Irrelevant though, even if it is not a linear increase in stature, so we have "all" types of speed covered.
While I can get behind having types/levels of omnipresence (and maybe omniscience as well), that is probably best saved for a separate, smaller project, IMO. I don't want this to become bigger than it already is, and plus, it's not exactly related to the tiering system like the other things we're discussing here are.



While we're talking about dimensional stuff, do we really need Zero-Dimensionality as a power? There is literally only one character on the entire wiki who has it, and if we're going to nix type 1 transduality based on obscurity, we need to do the same to zero-dimensionality. Alternatively, we can repurpose it into something like "Lower-Dimensional Existence", to broadly cover characters who are physically lower-dimensional. I'd like to let this be discussed, though.
 
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I think dimensionality should have its own page as a whole.
Something like type 1. low dimensional 2.higher D 3.Adimensional.
 

Antvasima

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I suppose that Adimensional Existence is the least bad current option for a title.

I was more considering if renaming Irrelevant speed to Omnitemporal would function as a compromise solution, but still prefer to keep Irrelevant as a title.

I do not mind if we remove Zero-Dimensionality.
 
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Keeping Irrelevant would be meaningless tbh. Like, yeah we lose a speed rating. But it's really no different from Immortality type 10.
 
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I suppose that Adimensional Existence is the least bad current option for a title.
Not really. The prefix A is a latin stem meaning Not, so Adimensional Existence means Non-dimensional Existence. It's simple and to the point, it is alot better name than "Aspatio-Temporal Existence". And as a added bonus, people can actually understand what it means.
 

Antvasima

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Keeping Irrelevant would be meaningless tbh. Like, yeah we lose a speed rating. But it's really no different from Immortality type 10.
I think that Ultima and KingPin had worked out a way to keep it for beings that do not fit with Immeasurable.
 

Antvasima

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Not really. The prefix A is a latin stem meaning Not, so Adimensional Existence means Non-dimensional Existence. It's simple and to the point, it is alot better name than "Aspatio-Temporal Existence". And as a added bonus, people can actually understand what it means.
Well, I said least bad option. Does the name fit with the definitions of the redefined page though?
 

Everything12

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Immeasurable is being so fast you treat time as an Axis of movement and can do logically impossible feats of speed, but what about beings who don't just move through time as speed, but treat time as unnecessary for movement altogether? Beings who completely transcend Space and Time, who have speeds that reflect such an existence.

If all Finite Speeds was 1, Infinite was 0, and Immeasurable Speed capable of -1, then they would just be completely outside the scale altogether. (Omni-Temporal would just be encompassing the whole scale at once.) Giving them just Immeasurable would be misclassifying such beings in my opinion.

Type 10 and Type 1 Concepts were removed because they were just "this thing is 1-A", unnecessary Types as that is just potency. Meanwhile, Irrelevant is for beings whose movement transcend Space and Time, where Immeasurable is not a sufficient speed to give them.
 

KingPin0422

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I would drop the "transcending time and space" bit since I explained why transcendence over n-D spacetime is ontologically not any different from being devoid of (n+1)-D spacetime and no one has countered it so far, but yes, Irrelevant Speed is very different from Immeasurable Speed. The latter means moving across time as easily as you can move across space, but the former would treat space and time as unnecessary for movement altogether.

Remember that speed is defined in relation to distance (a spatial unit) and time. Immeasurable Speed already does break the speed formula (which is how it gets its name), but again, that's by treating time like a spatial axis. Characters who do that don't belong in the same category as characters who don't abide to space or time in the first place.

That being said, Irrelevant Speed would likely be reserved for adimensional beings now that we got rid of timeless void feats, and as outlined above, Irrelevant Speed wouldn't be a linear improvement over Immeasurable Speed. Still, I hope that what I just said before is good enough to justify keeping it separate from Immeasurable Speed.

As for that Omnitemporal thing, I actually do remember that Aeyu once pitched the idea to have "levels" of omnipresence. There was "Spatial Omnipresence" for when it only includes space, "Temporal Omnipresence" for when it includes both space and time, and "Metaphysical Omnipresence" for when it includes adimensional realms. Once again, though, I'd personally prefer to save this for its own revision.
 
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Tbf it just look like we're trying to justify something that isn't speed. Being independant from the two concept is more related to your nature than your movement.

Also treating "time as unnecessary for movement" wouldn't even have to equate to higher speed. Moving in a timeless does this, but it isn't a higher speed. Infinite speed technically does, it but it isn't beyond speed.

In essence, it's really just reaching Immeasurable speed through another method. Having another mean for the same result wouldn't deserve a separate rating,.

Also there's the fact that we're inventing something baseless. We just try coming up with solutions, but saying "hey, wouldn't this work like this?" when nothing really consider it this way only make things worse on the long term.
 

Antvasima

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I personally think that KingPin makes sense regarding irrelevant speed. It is a very different concept from Immeasurable speed, and we should have a classification which reflects that.
 

KingPin0422

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Tbf it just look like we're trying to justify something that isn't speed. Being independant from the two concept is more related to your nature than your movement.
A character's physiology very well can influence their movement, though. Higher-dimensional characters, when they are shown to encompass temporal dimensions, would have Immeasurable Speed specifically because of their nature, nevermind the fact that large-sized characters get high speed ratings according to our standards on large size calculations.
Also treating "time as unnecessary for movement" wouldn't even have to equate to higher speed. Moving in a timeless does this, but it isn't a higher speed. Infinite speed technically does, it but it isn't beyond speed.
Moving in a timeless void is not used as a speed feat because the verses we have where this happens never treat it as a speed feat and the characters we have who do so always have limited speed otherwise. As for Infinite Speed, I suppose that it would treat time as unnecessary on some level, but I'm obviously not talking about cases where T=0. I'm talking about cases where T just doesn't exist at all.
In essence, it's really just reaching Immeasurable speed through another method. Having another mean for the same result wouldn't deserve a separate rating,.
You seem to be ignoring the explanations I gave for why Irrelevant Speed is objectively different from Immeasurable Speed. Once again, Immeasurable Speed still relies on distance and time, even if it can move throughout both equally and therefore can't be measured with the speed formula. Irrelevant Speed does not behold such concepts in the first place, and since speed is defined in relation to them, this technically isn't even speed, but we need to acknowledge it because it's a natural consequence of being adimensional.
Also there's the fact that we're inventing something baseless. We just try coming up with solutions, but saying "hey, wouldn't this work like this?" when nothing really consider it this way only make things worse on the long term.
Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're saying here.
 

DontTalkDT

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As for Irrelevant Speed, I have talked with a few people on Discord regarding this, including Ultima, and we are thinking that perhaps it can simply be redefined instead of totally erased. We have agreed that a better definition of Irrelevant Speed is that of a rating for characters to whom the concepts of space and time do not apply, i.e., characters who have Aspatio-Temporal Existence. To explain, speed is defined in terms of distance (space) and time, using the equation S=D/T. If D=∞ or T=0, then S=∞, which is indexed as Infinite Speed. Immeasurable Speed entails being able to move throughout time as easily as one can move throughout space, so S=D/T is no longer applicable at this point as distance and time would be interchangeable from your perspective. Irrelevant Speed is when distance/space and time are just completely ignored, thus rendering speed, well, irrelevant to you.

For the record, Irrelevant Speed probably cannot be compared to Immeasurable Speed. On paper, it would seem straightforward: the former is unbounded by the applications of space and time while the latter is not, so Irrelevant > Immeasurable. Indeed, if Irrelevant Speed is relative to a higher-dimensional spacetime than Immeasurable Speed, or perhaps even the same spacetime, then this absolutely would be the case. The thing is, an aspatio-temporal character is not always going to be stronger than a higher-dimensional character, or else we would have many more people in 1-A, so we should not assume that they will necessarily be faster, either. In fact, any fight between one character who is bound to spacetime and another character who is aspatio-temporal will likely be inconclusive regardless of AP if we lack evidence that one or both fighters can interact with each other.
Tbh I don't think Irrelevant > Immeasurable, or any other common speed rating, following this definition. It sounds more like a state of existence than a combat speed rating, for our purposes.
Like, if two characters fight and would both erase each other with their very first attack, then there is no reason to assume the Irrelevant character strikes "first" i.e. that it wins that battle. The same would be the case if it was, for example, Irrelevant vs Supersonic.
Even a character that completely ignores distance & time will in battles either act faster or not and from their existence being one where speed theoretically should be irrelevant one can't conclude whether or not they act first.
Essentially, an Irrelevant character following this definition would always need a second speed stat to specify that their kind of Irrelevant speed lets them act at least as fast as some other speed stat. Hence my initial suggestion that it is more like a state of existence than a speed stat.

Edit: Btw. I'm in principal ok with the suggestion of adding Omnitemporal as speed, in the sense of it being temporal omnipresence without spatial omnipresence. I don't think it should be viewed as a replacement for Irrelevant speed, though, but should be its own thing. Of course, much of Note 3 on the speed page would apply to this rating as well. Not sure if any characters of this nature exist, though.
 
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Antvasima

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DontTalk makes some good points. What do the rest of you think?
 

DontTalkDT

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For Omnitemporal, it should definitely be a type of Omnipresence and not a speed rating.
Speed is speed. That is something else
I mean, whether speed in a stricter sense or not, if we have a lot of characters of this nature it would likely be worth mentioning on the Speed page, as we do with omnipresence.
 
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I mean, whether speed in a stricter sense or not, if we have a lot of characters of this nature it would likely be worth mentioning on the Speed page, as we do with omnipresence.
I don't mind it being mentionned alongside Omnipresence yeah. Just need to stay separated.
 

Antvasima

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So what are the staff conclusions regarding what we should do here?
 

Antvasima

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So can somebody summarise the conclusions so far regarding what we should do here please?
 
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It seems to be hard to gauge exactly what everyone on this thread agrees with since there have been few comments and most of them have been focused on one topic in particular depending on the time; but as for what seems to be uncontroversial we have: conceptual manipulation alterations, transduality type alterations (specifically deleting type 1 and merging type 2 and 3, also renaming it non duality has shown signs of approval), deletion of 0-dimensional existence, BDE typing alterations and potentially Irrelevant LS deletion (hasn't been discussed directly but might fall under the irrelevant speed discussion).
 
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So...

Transduality and Irrelevant speed are still debatted.

Nobody seem to be against Irrelevant Strength getting deleted.

Aspatio-Temporal Existence (name subject to change)looks accepted, but maybe some draft or possible justifications would be better to fully see how it would go.

And Conceptual Manipulation seems to be accepted, and the page would be just like the draft in the OP.

Irrelevant

Since "what's agreed on so far should be applied", CM new version, Irrelevant Strength and maybe APE (name subject to change) should be added.
And I can do the changes and updates for CM if needed.
 

Antvasima

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Thank you for helping out.

Are any other knowledgeable members willing to try to help organise and apply the agreed upon revisions please? I am too distracted by other tasks to be able to properly do so.
 
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If nobody mind, I would just need to have the Conceptual Manipulation page unlocked to apply this change.

Would also need a big clean up to put the profiles under CM user later on, most likely.
 
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I intended to do it like the one we did for Immeasurable Speed yeah.

Obviously can't do stuff alone.

Although first thing is changing the page.
 

Antvasima

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Isn't it best to try to get some volunteers to help out in an organised manner first? Otherwise we might end up changing the CM page, and then months pass, and almost none of the pages that link to it have been updated. It would likely create a confusing disorganised mess.
 
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Well, I can try.
Wouldn't it be best to first do the thread, idd people and ask who wants to be volunteer, then apply the change to CM and do the mass editing?
Rather than asking everyone individualy.
 

Antvasima

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Thank you. Perhaps we should start with the "Corruption" revision, and then continue with this one after that one has been finished?
 
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Well, if it makes things faster I'm gonna help with the Corruption applying stuff too.

Although I feel like I could have updated nearly every conceptual manipulation profiles in one week but eh, can't expect everything to go fast.
 
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Well, if it makes things faster I'm gonna help with the Corruption applying stuff too.

Although I feel like I could have updated nearly every conceptual manipulation profiles in one week but eh, can't expect everything to go fast.
If you want i will help you for concept manipulation change when it begin
 
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