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Okay. Never mind then.Undimensioned sounds like 0D.
I would also prefer a better name than aspatio-temporal existence.To be honest, I don't remember why "Aspatio-Temporal Existence" was chosen. Probably because of some distinction we made between "aspatial + atemporal" and "adimensional", but I can't name a single verse with dimensions that are not spatial nor temporal. I'm open to suggestions for better names.
As for Irrelevant Speed, I know Sera told me on Discord that she would rather have N/A for that and other things. To be honest, I can list off a few arguments to support this suggestion:
I'm sure that someone may be able to poke holes in her proposal, but it's something we can consider, especially since "inapplicable" (for which N/A is shorthand) and "irrelevant" are largely synonymous.
- I already said in my previous post that Irrelevant Speed wouldn't be linearly better than Immeasurable Speed, and I'm pretty sure the main speed scale is meant to be strictly linear.
- We already have Omnipresence as an "other" speed rating for characters who encompass everything on whatever scale. It would have to override N/A where applicable, though.
I suppose "Adimensional Existence" as Planck suggested above is fine.I would also prefer a better name than aspatio-temporal existence.
While I can get behind having types/levels of omnipresence (and maybe omniscience as well), that is probably best saved for a separate, smaller project, IMO. I don't want this to become bigger than it already is, and plus, it's not exactly related to the tiering system like the other things we're discussing here are.Omnipresence is usually defined as being everwhere at once, not everywhen. Perhaps we could change Irrelevant to Omnitemporal instead, for characters that transcend time? I am fine with keeping Irrelevant though, even if it is not a linear increase in stature, so we have "all" types of speed covered.
Not really. The prefix A is a latin stem meaning Not, so Adimensional Existence means Non-dimensional Existence. It's simple and to the point, it is alot better name than "Aspatio-Temporal Existence". And as a added bonus, people can actually understand what it means.I suppose that Adimensional Existence is the least bad current option for a title.
I think that Ultima and KingPin had worked out a way to keep it for beings that do not fit with Immeasurable.Keeping Irrelevant would be meaningless tbh. Like, yeah we lose a speed rating. But it's really no different from Immortality type 10.
Well, I said least bad option. Does the name fit with the definitions of the redefined page though?Not really. The prefix A is a latin stem meaning Not, so Adimensional Existence means Non-dimensional Existence. It's simple and to the point, it is alot better name than "Aspatio-Temporal Existence". And as a added bonus, people can actually understand what it means.
A character's physiology very well can influence their movement, though. Higher-dimensional characters, when they are shown to encompass temporal dimensions, would have Immeasurable Speed specifically because of their nature, nevermind the fact that large-sized characters get high speed ratings according to our standards on large size calculations.Tbf it just look like we're trying to justify something that isn't speed. Being independant from the two concept is more related to your nature than your movement.
Moving in a timeless void is not used as a speed feat because the verses we have where this happens never treat it as a speed feat and the characters we have who do so always have limited speed otherwise. As for Infinite Speed, I suppose that it would treat time as unnecessary on some level, but I'm obviously not talking about cases where T=0. I'm talking about cases where T just doesn't exist at all.Also treating "time as unnecessary for movement" wouldn't even have to equate to higher speed. Moving in a timeless does this, but it isn't a higher speed. Infinite speed technically does, it but it isn't beyond speed.
You seem to be ignoring the explanations I gave for why Irrelevant Speed is objectively different from Immeasurable Speed. Once again, Immeasurable Speed still relies on distance and time, even if it can move throughout both equally and therefore can't be measured with the speed formula. Irrelevant Speed does not behold such concepts in the first place, and since speed is defined in relation to them, this technically isn't even speed, but we need to acknowledge it because it's a natural consequence of being adimensional.In essence, it's really just reaching Immeasurable speed through another method. Having another mean for the same result wouldn't deserve a separate rating,.
Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're saying here.Also there's the fact that we're inventing something baseless. We just try coming up with solutions, but saying "hey, wouldn't this work like this?" when nothing really consider it this way only make things worse on the long term.
Tbh I don't think Irrelevant > Immeasurable, or any other common speed rating, following this definition. It sounds more like a state of existence than a combat speed rating, for our purposes.As for Irrelevant Speed, I have talked with a few people on Discord regarding this, including Ultima, and we are thinking that perhaps it can simply be redefined instead of totally erased. We have agreed that a better definition of Irrelevant Speed is that of a rating for characters to whom the concepts of space and time do not apply, i.e., characters who have Aspatio-Temporal Existence. To explain, speed is defined in terms of distance (space) and time, using the equation S=D/T. If D=∞ or T=0, then S=∞, which is indexed as Infinite Speed. Immeasurable Speed entails being able to move throughout time as easily as one can move throughout space, so S=D/T is no longer applicable at this point as distance and time would be interchangeable from your perspective. Irrelevant Speed is when distance/space and time are just completely ignored, thus rendering speed, well, irrelevant to you.
For the record, Irrelevant Speed probably cannot be compared to Immeasurable Speed. On paper, it would seem straightforward: the former is unbounded by the applications of space and time while the latter is not, so Irrelevant > Immeasurable. Indeed, if Irrelevant Speed is relative to a higher-dimensional spacetime than Immeasurable Speed, or perhaps even the same spacetime, then this absolutely would be the case. The thing is, an aspatio-temporal character is not always going to be stronger than a higher-dimensional character, or else we would have many more people in 1-A, so we should not assume that they will necessarily be faster, either. In fact, any fight between one character who is bound to spacetime and another character who is aspatio-temporal will likely be inconclusive regardless of AP if we lack evidence that one or both fighters can interact with each other.
I mean, whether speed in a stricter sense or not, if we have a lot of characters of this nature it would likely be worth mentioning on the Speed page, as we do with omnipresence.For Omnitemporal, it should definitely be a type of Omnipresence and not a speed rating.
Speed is speed. That is something else
I don't mind it being mentionned alongside Omnipresence yeah. Just need to stay separated.I mean, whether speed in a stricter sense or not, if we have a lot of characters of this nature it would likely be worth mentioning on the Speed page, as we do with omnipresence.
I believe the consensus is that Transduality will be addressed in a separate thread, since its a bit complex.The only thing left to discuss here, is Transduality, which i still have no clue what it even is, so don't see what input i can provide.
What's agreed on so far, should be applied.