The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 2

[Planck69]

Adimensional Existence or Undimensioned Existence perhaps?

 

[Antvasima]

Undimensioned Existence perhaps, but it may be misunderstood.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Undimensioned sounds like 0D.

 

[KingPin0422]

To be honest, I don't remember why "Aspatio-Temporal Existence" was chosen. Probably because of some distinction we made between "aspatial + atemporal" and "adimensional", but I can't name a single verse with dimensions that are not spatial nor temporal. I'm open to suggestions for better names.

As for Irrelevant Speed, I know Sera told me on Discord that she would rather have N/A for that and other things. To be honest, I can list off a few arguments to support this suggestion:

1. I already said in my previous post that Irrelevant Speed wouldn't be linearly better than Immeasurable Speed, and I'm pretty sure the main speed scale is meant to be strictly linear.
2. We already have Omnipresence as an "other" speed rating for characters who encompass everything on whatever scale. It would have to override N/A where applicable, though.

I'm sure that someone may be able to poke holes in her proposal, but it's something we can consider, especially since "inapplicable" (for which N/A is shorthand) and "irrelevant" are largely synonymous.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Maybe we should also keep tracks of who's for deletion, who's for a change and who's for things to stay?

 

[Antvasima]

Undimensioned sounds like 0D.

Okay. Never mind then.

 

[Antvasima]

To be honest, I don't remember why "Aspatio-Temporal Existence" was chosen. Probably because of some distinction we made between "aspatial + atemporal" and "adimensional", but I can't name a single verse with dimensions that are not spatial nor temporal. I'm open to suggestions for better names.

As for Irrelevant Speed, I know Sera told me on Discord that she would rather have N/A for that and other things. To be honest, I can list off a few arguments to support this suggestion:

1. I already said in my previous post that Irrelevant Speed wouldn't be linearly better than Immeasurable Speed, and I'm pretty sure the main speed scale is meant to be strictly linear.
2. We already have Omnipresence as an "other" speed rating for characters who encompass everything on whatever scale. It would have to override N/A where applicable, though.

I'm sure that someone may be able to poke holes in her proposal, but it's something we can consider, especially since "inapplicable" (for which N/A is shorthand) and "irrelevant" are largely synonymous.

I would also prefer a better name than aspatio-temporal existence.

Omnipresence is usually defined as being everwhere at once, not everywhen. Perhaps we could change Irrelevant to Omnitemporal instead, for characters that transcend time? I am fine with keeping Irrelevant though, even if it is not a linear increase in stature, so we have "all" types of speed covered.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think we should do types of omnipresence and all for the "everywhen" issue.
I was already planning a way to classify omniscience and omnipresence by scale, which would eventually include this.

Imo we technically have "all" (or most) of them covered, to the point of having some (like Irrelevant) who aren't even speed and more of an arbitrary decision.

 

[KingPin0422]

I would also prefer a better name than aspatio-temporal existence.

I suppose "Adimensional Existence" as Planck suggested above is fine.

Omnipresence is usually defined as being everwhere at once, not everywhen. Perhaps we could change Irrelevant to Omnitemporal instead, for characters that transcend time? I am fine with keeping Irrelevant though, even if it is not a linear increase in stature, so we have "all" types of speed covered.

While I can get behind having types/levels of omnipresence (and maybe omniscience as well), that is probably best saved for a separate, smaller project, IMO. I don't want this to become bigger than it already is, and plus, it's not exactly related to the tiering system like the other things we're discussing here are.

---

While we're talking about dimensional stuff, do we really need Zero-Dimensionality as a power? There is literally only one character on the entire wiki who has it, and if we're going to nix type 1 transduality based on obscurity, we need to do the same to zero-dimensionality. Alternatively, we can repurpose it into something like "Lower-Dimensional Existence", to broadly cover characters who are physically lower-dimensional. I'd like to let this be discussed, though.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think dimensionality should have its own page as a whole.
Something like type 1. low dimensional 2.higher D 3.Adimensional.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that Adimensional Existence is the least bad current option for a title.

I was more considering if renaming Irrelevant speed to Omnitemporal would function as a compromise solution, but still prefer to keep Irrelevant as a title.

I do not mind if we remove Zero-Dimensionality.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Keeping Irrelevant would be meaningless tbh. Like, yeah we lose a speed rating. But it's really no different from Immortality type 10.

 

[InfiniteDay]

I suppose that Adimensional Existence is the least bad current option for a title.

Not really. The prefix A is a latin stem meaning Not, so Adimensional Existence means Non-dimensional Existence. It's simple and to the point, it is alot better name than "Aspatio-Temporal Existence". And as a added bonus, people can actually understand what it means.

 

[Antvasima]

Keeping Irrelevant would be meaningless tbh. Like, yeah we lose a speed rating. But it's really no different from Immortality type 10.

I think that Ultima and KingPin had worked out a way to keep it for beings that do not fit with Immeasurable.

 

[Antvasima]

Not really. The prefix A is a latin stem meaning Not, so Adimensional Existence means Non-dimensional Existence. It's simple and to the point, it is alot better name than "Aspatio-Temporal Existence". And as a added bonus, people can actually understand what it means.

Well, I said least bad option. Does the name fit with the definitions of the redefined page though?

 

[Everything12]

Immeasurable is being so fast you treat time as an Axis of movement and can do logically impossible feats of speed, but what about beings who don't just move through time as speed, but treat time as unnecessary for movement altogether? Beings who completely transcend Space and Time, who have speeds that reflect such an existence.

If all Finite Speeds was 1, Infinite was 0, and Immeasurable Speed capable of -1, then they would just be completely outside the scale altogether. (Omni-Temporal would just be encompassing the whole scale at once.) Giving them just Immeasurable would be misclassifying such beings in my opinion.

Type 10 and Type 1 Concepts were removed because they were just "this thing is 1-A", unnecessary Types as that is just potency. Meanwhile, Irrelevant is for beings whose movement transcend Space and Time, where Immeasurable is not a sufficient speed to give them.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Everything12.

 

[KingPin0422]

I would drop the "transcending time and space" bit since I explained why transcendence over n-D spacetime is ontologically not any different from being devoid of (n+1)-D spacetime and no one has countered it so far, but yes, Irrelevant Speed is very different from Immeasurable Speed. The latter means moving across time as easily as you can move across space, but the former would treat space and time as unnecessary for movement altogether.

Remember that speed is defined in relation to distance (a spatial unit) and time. Immeasurable Speed already does break the speed formula (which is how it gets its name), but again, that's by treating time like a spatial axis. Characters who do that don't belong in the same category as characters who don't abide to space or time in the first place.

That being said, Irrelevant Speed would likely be reserved for adimensional beings now that we got rid of timeless void feats, and as outlined above, Irrelevant Speed wouldn't be a linear improvement over Immeasurable Speed. Still, I hope that what I just said before is good enough to justify keeping it separate from Immeasurable Speed.

As for that Omnitemporal thing, I actually do remember that Aeyu once pitched the idea to have "levels" of omnipresence. There was "Spatial Omnipresence" for when it only includes space, "Temporal Omnipresence" for when it includes both space and time, and "Metaphysical Omnipresence" for when it includes adimensional realms. Once again, though, I'd personally prefer to save this for its own revision.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Tbf it just look like we're trying to justify something that isn't speed. Being independant from the two concept is more related to your nature than your movement.

Also treating "time as unnecessary for movement" wouldn't even have to equate to higher speed. Moving in a timeless does this, but it isn't a higher speed. Infinite speed technically does, it but it isn't beyond speed.

In essence, it's really just reaching Immeasurable speed through another method. Having another mean for the same result wouldn't deserve a separate rating,.

Also there's the fact that we're inventing something baseless. We just try coming up with solutions, but saying "hey, wouldn't this work like this?" when nothing really consider it this way only make things worse on the long term.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that KingPin makes sense regarding irrelevant speed. It is a very different concept from Immeasurable speed, and we should have a classification which reflects that.

 

[KingPin0422]

Tbf it just look like we're trying to justify something that isn't speed. Being independant from the two concept is more related to your nature than your movement.

A character's physiology very well can influence their movement, though. Higher-dimensional characters, when they are shown to encompass temporal dimensions, would have Immeasurable Speed specifically because of their nature, nevermind the fact that large-sized characters get high speed ratings according to our standards on large size calculations.

Also treating "time as unnecessary for movement" wouldn't even have to equate to higher speed. Moving in a timeless does this, but it isn't a higher speed. Infinite speed technically does, it but it isn't beyond speed.

Moving in a timeless void is not used as a speed feat because the verses we have where this happens never treat it as a speed feat and the characters we have who do so always have limited speed otherwise. As for Infinite Speed, I suppose that it would treat time as unnecessary on some level, but I'm obviously not talking about cases where T=0. I'm talking about cases where T just doesn't exist at all.

In essence, it's really just reaching Immeasurable speed through another method. Having another mean for the same result wouldn't deserve a separate rating,.

You seem to be ignoring the explanations I gave for why Irrelevant Speed is objectively different from Immeasurable Speed. Once again, Immeasurable Speed still relies on distance and time, even if it can move throughout both equally and therefore can't be measured with the speed formula. Irrelevant Speed does not behold such concepts in the first place, and since speed is defined in relation to them, this technically isn't even speed, but we need to acknowledge it because it's a natural consequence of being adimensional.

Also there's the fact that we're inventing something baseless. We just try coming up with solutions, but saying "hey, wouldn't this work like this?" when nothing really consider it this way only make things worse on the long term.

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're saying here.

 

[Antvasima]

I still agree with KingPin0422.

 

[DontTalkDT]

As for Irrelevant Speed, I have talked with a few people on Discord regarding this, including Ultima, and we are thinking that perhaps it can simply be redefined instead of totally erased. We have agreed that a better definition of Irrelevant Speed is that of a rating for characters to whom the concepts of space and time do not apply, i.e., characters who have Aspatio-Temporal Existence. To explain, speed is defined in terms of distance (space) and time, using the equation S=D/T. If D=∞ or T=0, then S=∞, which is indexed as Infinite Speed. Immeasurable Speed entails being able to move throughout time as easily as one can move throughout space, so S=D/T is no longer applicable at this point as distance and time would be interchangeable from your perspective. Irrelevant Speed is when distance/space and time are just completely ignored, thus rendering speed, well, irrelevant to you.

For the record, Irrelevant Speed probably cannot be compared to Immeasurable Speed. On paper, it would seem straightforward: the former is unbounded by the applications of space and time while the latter is not, so Irrelevant > Immeasurable. Indeed, if Irrelevant Speed is relative to a higher-dimensional spacetime than Immeasurable Speed, or perhaps even the same spacetime, then this absolutely would be the case. The thing is, an aspatio-temporal character is not always going to be stronger than a higher-dimensional character, or else we would have many more people in 1-A, so we should not assume that they will necessarily be faster, either. In fact, any fight between one character who is bound to spacetime and another character who is aspatio-temporal will likely be inconclusive regardless of AP if we lack evidence that one or both fighters can interact with each other.

Tbh I don't think Irrelevant > Immeasurable, or any other common speed rating, following this definition. It sounds more like a state of existence than a combat speed rating, for our purposes.
Like, if two characters fight and would both erase each other with their very first attack, then there is no reason to assume the Irrelevant character strikes "first" i.e. that it wins that battle. The same would be the case if it was, for example, Irrelevant vs Supersonic.
Even a character that completely ignores distance & time will in battles either act faster or not and from their existence being one where speed theoretically should be irrelevant one can't conclude whether or not they act first.
Essentially, an Irrelevant character following this definition would always need a second speed stat to specify that their kind of Irrelevant speed lets them act at least as fast as some other speed stat. Hence my initial suggestion that it is more like a state of existence than a speed stat.

Edit: Btw. I'm in principal ok with the suggestion of adding Omnitemporal as speed, in the sense of it being temporal omnipresence without spatial omnipresence. I don't think it should be viewed as a replacement for Irrelevant speed, though, but should be its own thing. Of course, much of Note 3 on the speed page would apply to this rating as well. Not sure if any characters of this nature exist, though.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk makes some good points. What do the rest of you think?

 

[QuasiYuri]

I agree with the first part.

For Omnitemporal, it should definitely be a type of Omnipresence and not a speed rating.
Speed is speed. That is something else

 

[DontTalkDT]

For Omnitemporal, it should definitely be a type of Omnipresence and not a speed rating.
Speed is speed. That is something else

I mean, whether speed in a stricter sense or not, if we have a lot of characters of this nature it would likely be worth mentioning on the Speed page, as we do with omnipresence.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I mean, whether speed in a stricter sense or not, if we have a lot of characters of this nature it would likely be worth mentioning on the Speed page, as we do with omnipresence.

I don't mind it being mentionned alongside Omnipresence yeah. Just need to stay separated.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the staff conclusions regarding what we should do here?

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @Schnee_One @Armorchompy @DarkDragonMedeus @Ultima_Reality @Duedate8898 @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @DemonGodMitchAubin @Dino_Ranger_Black @DontTalkDT @Ionliosite @Promestein @Mr._Bambu @Ogbunabali @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Qawsedf234 @AKM sama

Would you be willing to continue to help out here please?

 

[Schnee_One]

I am so lost on this that I can’t help, even more confused then before

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is unfortunate.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think that we should apply what was accepted and focus on what's left only after imo.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems to be a very good suggestion.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The only thing left to discuss here, is Transduality, which i still have no clue what it even is, so don't see what input i can provide.

What's agreed on so far, should be applied.

 

[ShivaShakti]

The only thing left to discuss here, is Transduality, which i still have no clue what it even is, so don't see what input i can provide.

What's agreed on so far, should be applied.

I believe the consensus is that Transduality will be addressed in a separate thread, since its a bit complex.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

As I stated before, Tiers above 2 are beyond my comprehension, so I won't be much help here.

 

[Antvasima]

So can somebody summarise the conclusions so far regarding what we should do here please?

 

[Tago238]

It seems to be hard to gauge exactly what everyone on this thread agrees with since there have been few comments and most of them have been focused on one topic in particular depending on the time; but as for what seems to be uncontroversial we have: conceptual manipulation alterations, transduality type alterations (specifically deleting type 1 and merging type 2 and 3, also renaming it non duality has shown signs of approval), deletion of 0-dimensional existence, BDE typing alterations and potentially Irrelevant LS deletion (hasn't been discussed directly but might fall under the irrelevant speed discussion).

 

[QuasiYuri]

So...

Transduality and Irrelevant speed are still debatted.

Nobody seem to be against Irrelevant Strength getting deleted.

Aspatio-Temporal Existence (name subject to change)looks accepted, but maybe some draft or possible justifications would be better to fully see how it would go.

And Conceptual Manipulation seems to be accepted, and the page would be just like the draft in the OP.

Irrelevant

Since "what's agreed on so far should be applied", CM new version, Irrelevant Strength and maybe APE (name subject to change) should be added.
And I can do the changes and updates for CM if needed.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

Are any other knowledgeable members willing to try to help organise and apply the agreed upon revisions please? I am too distracted by other tasks to be able to properly do so.