THE END OF ALL FIRE FORCE TIER 2 THREADS!!!

[LordGriffin1000]

While I do think the OP has a point regarding time travel, it doesn't instantly negate them being separated space-time wise since there is a connection between them. From what other comments say, it's a collection of the consciousness so technically they could travel back in time and end up on Earth since the other dimension has a type of connection to it.

It's also not odd for writers to incorporate traveling through space when also traveling through time but to give an example regarding a connection from a verse I'm familiar with (since I know nothing about Fire Force). The Ghost Zone in Danny Phantom is completely separate from the normal universes space-time however, the lore tells use that they reside within the same dimensional structure and are tethered together (there like a coin) if you nuke one, the other collapses despite it's stated/shown that reside in completely different dimensions, literally requiring characters to open portals through space and time to reach either or. So when looking at it from the Fire Force perspective, since it's the collective consciousness, you could argue that the link between them allowed them to time travel to the past via that connection despite existing in different space-times.

These are just my thoughts since I was asked to comment on the previous thread but never got around to it (My apologies Pain to 12 for not responding to the previous thread when you ask, to much irl stuff going on). I'd prefer to be placed in the neutral catagory since I just don't have the knowledge to give a valid enough response so it is what it is, I'm to tired/sick to get into long debates so I'll not be responding after I post this.

 

[Reio35]

What gets me about this is that OP is regurgitating the same arguments that were already deemed insufficient counters to the thread that made Fire Force 2-C literally 2 days ago. So, if nothing new is being brought in that wasn’t in the previous thread, why even bother with a new thread so soon?

If it was later, I’d understand, as opinions can change over time. But so soon? Really?

Already addressed in the thread 2 days ago. The last Great Cataclysm resulted in the universal constant pi becoming solvable. If it wasn’t affecting the whole universe, that wouldn’t have happened.

It didn't see a single scan saying their affecting the whole universe even after the cataclysm happen only the planet was affect. I also saw a few fake scans being used. Like the cataclysm affecting the stars future.

When actually stated the future of the planet. I Also don't think those were real stars shown in the sky but rather cartoon constructs that look like stars. The other stars shown in space looked normal even post cataclysm which was apparently nuking the universe. I think a lot of this 2C scaling is taking things way outta context

 

[Arnoldstone18]

It didn't see a single scan saying their affecting the whole universe even after the cataclysm happen only the planet was affect. I also saw a few fake scans being used. Like the cataclysm affecting the stars future.

When actually stated the future of the planet. I Also don't think those were real stars shown in the sky but rather constructs that look like stars. Their other stars shown in space looked normal even post cataclysm which was apparently nuking the universe. I think a lot of this 2C scaling is taking things way outta context

Hey buddy, quick question.

If the universe looked like this and this what do you think changed it to look like this?

 

[PrinceofPein]

IMAGINE making a thread about something that was debated thoroughly just to practically repeat the same arguments!

Jokes aside yeah I disagree for the reasonings given in this thread and the last one.

tag a place in the last thread where anyone made the arguments in the OP i will wait

What gets me about this is that OP is regurgitating the same arguments that were already deemed insufficient counters to the thread that made Fire Force 2-C literally 2 days ago. So, if nothing new is being brought in that wasn’t in the previous thread, why even bother with a new thread so soon?

Tag a place the arguments in the OP was made in the last thread, I will actually wait for that.
What do you mean by regurgitating the same arguments when literally they are not the same. Anyway, due tag that part I will wait

While I do think the OP has a point regarding time travel, it doesn't instantly negate them being separated space-time wise since there is a connection between them. From what other comments say, it's a collection of the consciousness so technically they could travel back in time and end up on Earth since the other dimension has a type of connection to it.

The other dimension connection to it is that Adolla is practically a place that stores up earth's depair. and also they are not separate spatio-temporally which is proven by the entire time travel shenanigan and by our standard, you cannot time travel into the past of other time-spaces that are supposed to be spatio-temporally separated from the other universe

It's also not odd for writers to incorporate traveling through space when also traveling through time but to give an example regarding a connection from a verse I'm familiar with (since I know nothing about Fire Force). The Ghost Zone in Danny Phantom is completely separate from the normal universes space-time however, the lore tells use that they reside within the same dimensional structure and are tethered together (there like a coin) if you nuke one, the other collapses despite it's stated/shown that reside in completely different dimensions, literally requiring characters to open portals through space and time to reach either or. So when looking at it from the Fire Force perspective, since it's the collective consciousness, you could argue that the link between them allowed them to time travel to the past via that connection despite existing in different space-times.

I know about the Danny phantom and like you said you need a portal through time, which is in line with our standard which implies that you need a portal to travel through universes of different space-times. This FF on the other hand has nothing of such, and a simply traveling back through time takes you to the same past.
And I should add again from our guidelines
1. Time travel should not affect the other space time
2. They need to be separate for infinite time
both which FF fails at.

These are just my thoughts since I was asked to comment on the previous thread but never got around to it (My apologies Pain to 12 for not responding to the previous thread when you ask, to much irl stuff going on). I'd prefer to be placed in the neutral catagory since I just don't have the knowledge to give a valid enough response so it is what it is, I'm to tired/sick to get into long debates so I'll not be responding after I post this.

Thanks for the response, it is appreciated

I think a lot of this 2C scaling is taking things way outta context

True, but I should add that what you are discussing right now is not what is in the OP, so I will like to keep things simple here

 

[Dalesean027]

It didn't see a single scan saying their affecting the whole universe even after the cataclysm happen only the planet was affect. I also saw a few fake scans being used. Like the cataclysm affecting the stars future.

notice how space is 2d and not 3d

adolla initially changed the world from our real 3rd world to 2d across the entire universe

 

[CloverDragon03]

It didn't see a single scan saying their affecting the whole universe even after the cataclysm happen only the planet was affect. I also saw a few fake scans being used. Like the cataclysm affecting the stars future.

When actually stated the future of the planet. I Also don't think those were real stars shown in the sky but rather cartoon constructs that look like stars. The other stars shown in space looked normal even post cataclysm which was apparently nuking the universe. I think a lot of this 2C scaling is taking things way outta context

“Fake scans” seems to be used to dismiss scans you don’t like to be honest. Dragon says “let us decide the future of the stars” to Arthur, for instance. Also, you make the claim that you “think” the stars aren’t actually stars but don’t support it. The process wasn’t complete, it’s that simple, especially since these affected characters have never shown the ability of Creation

You also didn’t address my other point at all

 

[Maitreya12]

Anyway, the staff thread was cause of derailment which has started already.

There really was no derailment in this thread or in the other one to the point that was need for a staff only discussion.

Again none of this address the fact that they are spatial-temporally separate.
The first scan says evangelist is not of this world, and that is obvious
The other shows that there is a tear in space that separates adolla and the world, again none of that defeats my point.
It been of higher plane also does not defeat my point

It literally does because the two worlds are directly shown to be completely disconnected from one another. What are you talking about. How can you say they’re spatially connected with one another when they’re literally entirely disconnected from one another.

Sorry to break it to you but having your own timeflow does not mean that you are a separate space time

Have your own time flow while being completely disconnected from the main world entirely yes does indicate a separate space-time.

But that aside even though the timeflow point does not flow
time flow in adolla is not really different, if it was all, the times anyone adolla linked or stayed in adolla and had discussions inside adolla, months should have passed outside, all we know is that shinra said he was running mad and then it went blank and when he came to on earth it's been months.

What are you talking about. He literally said “I lost time” in that time had passed without him ever knowing or experiencing that time pass.

If shinra can travel to the earth past by going back in time inside the adolla world, that means they are spatial-temporally connected,
You need to say why shinra is not traveling to the past of earth but another past entirely.

No it doesn’t as many others have pointed out.

I literally did because there is a direct distinction between the time of the world pre-cataclysm and the world post cataclysm. Adolla carying history in of itself means that past history is merging with the present world. Which a temporally affect of all of time.

Appeal to authority and you call call Ultima here or DT, since I think they are the most knowledgeable on tier 2

I didn’t “appeal to authority” I simply differed to their opinion because they’re knowledgeable members about tier 2 who proposed the 2-C rating in the first place

 

[Alexander]

It didn't see a single scan saying their affecting the whole universe even after the cataclysm happen only the planet was affect. I also saw a few fake scans being used. Like the cataclysm affecting the stars future.

When actually stated the future of the planet. I Also don't think those were real stars shown in the sky but rather cartoon constructs that look like stars. The other stars shown in space looked normal even post cataclysm which was apparently nuking the universe. I think a lot of this 2C scaling is taking things way outta context

where does that come from?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Tag a place the arguments in the OP was made in the last thread, I will actually wait for that.
What do you mean by regurgitating the same arguments when literally they are not the same. Anyway, due tag that part I will wait

This whole “not actually spatio-temporally separate” argument is the exact same one you made at the tail end of the last thread, an argument that was rejected

 

[KLOL506]

I saw the sneak you did Pain, and trust me, this isn't gonna end well for anyone if this keeps going on.

 

[KLOL506]

I WILL ASK AGAIN: KEEP. IT. CIVIL.

 

[Deceived3596]

I was a bit caught up and since the thread pushed tier 2 in the last page even though that was not been argued previously, and when I tried to explain that they are not separate spacetimes, I was called "desperate" and also said I was stonewalling, so the only option was to create a new thread to correct that

You wasn't called out for stonewalling/being desperate because you tried to explain they weren't separate space-times continuum's with convincing arguments but wasn't taken seriously because of biases, you where called out for stonewalling/being desperate because you kept regurgitating the same debunked talking points over and over again to ad nauseam. People who aren't even favorable to the series, who don't have intrinsic biases for the series, like Planck thought you were stonewalling, or at least bordering on it.

Shinra Adolla link allows him to go Light speed, but not just that he can go past light speed then he disintegrates and travels into the past.
Now
1. Shinra took an attack for Juggernaught which knocked him out and he somehow ended up in the Adolla plane with Inca
Shinra asked Inca what the Great Cataclysm is or how it will end, she replied that she does not know then, Inca mentioned that his super-light speed thing allows him to see the past, so he should travel back into the past to see what exactly happened during the last great cataclysm. Then she said "You will use your super light speed to fly into the past".
Shinra then traveled into the past, Where he saw the world or I should say Tokyo before the Great cataclysm on earth. Also the author also gave us a view of how earth 250 years ago looked like so he was obviously on earth 250 years ago.
So shinra time travelled when in the Adolla plane and ended up on earth from 250 years ago, which would not be possible if adolla and earth are in or different spacetimes, since you can obviously travel through their time and both is connected.
That will be all, but I should also add this interesting scenario, where shinra and sho while on earth and wanted to travel into the adolla, he had to disintegrate to do so, i.e. he had to travel into the past to do so.

Everything posted doesn't inherently prove they share the same space-time continuum. Sure you can interpret such, and i'd believe it would be a valid interpretation to have, at least in a vacuum. But it isn't the only valid interpretation of these scans. And i'll explain why.

Adolla, as in the dimension, is entirely constructed, and given existence by the collective unconscious of mankind, with Adolla being described as "a world of perception" by Shinra since Adolla's the idealization of mankind's unconscious perception and thoughts of everything, it's why things like Doppleganger's exist, which are people's unconscious perception and thoughts about a specific person given form by Adolla.

It's because of this context, that the existence of the previous past of our world existing in Adolla wouldn't necessarily prove they share the same space-time continuum since Adolla's the idealization of mankind's unconscious perception of thoughts, if mankind in a specific point of time in the past perceived x, y or z then Adolla would contain x, y and z in its past, at that specific point of time, regardless if it's consistent with our world, in actuality or not.

The evidence provided wouldn't necessarily prove anything about Adolla existing in the same space-time continuum since Adolla's existence isn't contingent on our space-time continuum, if mankind didn't perceived time linearly then time wouldn't move linearly in Adolla, if mankind didn't perceive past or future then past or future wouldn't exist in Adolla etc... It's because mankind perceives time in a straight line that Adolla has a similar movement of time within it compared to our universe, not because it inherently shares the same space-time continuum as our universe.

I'm not saying that the evidence provided by Pain can't have different valid interpretations, i just believe that, given the evidence, my interpretation requires less assumptions and is more supported by the given evidence compared to Pain's interpretation.

 

[Reio35]

“Fake scans” seems to be used to dismiss scans you don’t like to be honest. Dragon says “let us decide the future of the stars” to Arthur, for instance. Also, you make the claim that you “think” the stars aren’t actually stars but don’t support it. The process wasn’t complete, it’s that simple, especially since these affected characters have never shown the ability of Creation

You also didn’t address my other point at all

where does that come from?

The scan is from mangasee which only uses official viz translations if you think it's fake

 

[Reio35]

“Fake scans” seems to be used to dismiss scans you don’t like to be honest. Dragon says “let us decide the future of the stars” to Arthur, for instance. Also, you make the claim that you “think” the stars aren’t actually stars but don’t support it. The process wasn’t complete, it’s that simple, especially since these affected characters have never shown the ability of Creation

You also didn’t address my other point at all

Im referring to the cartoon stars that appear around earth. While in other areas of space they aren't their at all

 

[CloverDragon03]

Im referring to the cartoon stars that appear around earth. While in other areas of space they aren't their at all

Because the Great Cataclysm hadn’t been completed

 

[Dalesean027]

Im referring to the cartoon stars that appear around earth. While in other areas of space they aren't their at all

They are literally in that scan lol there are cartoon shapes stars in that literal scan

 

[PrinceofPein]

There really was no derailment in this thread or in the other one to the point that was need for a staff only discussion.

There was but that is past now and it does not matter

It literally does because the two worlds are directly shown to be completely disconnected from one another. What are you talking about. How can you say they’re spatially connected with one another when they’re literally entirely disconnected from one another.

Have your own time flow while being completely disconnected from the main world entirely yes does indicate a separate space-time.

if they are disconnected time travel from one will not affect the other, so yes it is not disconnected

What are you talking about. He literally said “I lost time” in that time had passed without him ever knowing or experiencing that time pass.

that is what happen when you are passed out or in a coma
Burns and joker were in adolla for some moments and they came back to earth and months did not pass
Shinra, sho e.t.c. it happened over and over again and months did not pass.

No it doesn’t as many others have pointed out.

the FAQ says otherwise, change that.

I literally did because there is a direct distinction between the time of the world pre-cataclysm and the world post cataclysm. Adolla carying history in of itself means that past history is merging with the present world. Which a temporally affect of all of time.

Adolla carrying the history of mankind despair does not change anything.
I don't think you understand what I am saying here
think of it as two lines
one is adolla and one is earth
their end is connected, got separated for 250 years then joined back together again, that according to tier 2 standard does not qualify for tier 2.
It just does not qualify it is not a maybe, it does not.
but in this case there is no proof of them even separating for 250 years, I am using that as an illustration that even if that was the case it will not be tier 2.
Again to quote the standards
"Two universes A and B are spatio-temporally separate if and only if, there are no point in space and time that are both in A and B"
also
"Two branching timelines/universes can qualify for tier 2 if they branch for infinite time"
So the first one this does not qualify
and the second one, it does not again since even if you say they were separated, they were for 250 years.

So it is really not me, you need to proof the standard wrong or say why FF qualifies against the standard

I didn’t “appeal to authority” I simply differed to their opinion because they’re knowledgeable members about tier 2 who proposed the 2-C rating in the first place

Well if we are talking about knowledgeable members on tier 2, I would count myself as one actually and aside Planc, I have not really seen anyone of them else in tier 2 threads

This whole “not actually spatio-temporally separate” argument is the exact same one you made at the tail end of the last thread, an argument that was rejected

and where did I drop this arguments? exactly?

I saw the sneak you did Pain, and trust me, this isn't gonna end well for anyone if this keeps going on.

I WILL ASK AGAIN: KEEP. IT. CIVIL.

Oh really, you wont tell them to also stop the needless posts? it is just me responding to provocations, stop the provacations

 

[Maitreya12]

This whole “not actually spatio-temporally separate” argument is the exact same one you made at the tail end of the last thread, an argument that was rejected

I also question the notion on how something like Adolla can even “share” a spatial-temporal time space when Adolla is literally just thought and imagination in of itself. Like it’s not even a “real” world at all.

It’s even verbatim stated to be both existent and nonexistent at the same time due to it being thought incarnate. So unless time in the Fire Force universe also encompasses imagination in of itself it should be totally separate from the main Fire Force world as Adolla doesn’t truly exists since it’s just perception.

 

[KLOL506]

Oh really, you wont tell them to also stop the needless posts? it is just me responding to provocations, stop the provacations

What. Did I literally just say. About keeping civil? Plus, I wasn't just speaking about you, I was speaking about everyone in this room.

Just because they provoke you doesn't mean you add fuel to the fire.

That goes double for you @DaReaperMan, sorry but I have to.

 

[Alexander]

The scan is from mangasee which only uses official viz translations if you think it's fake

the other translation was not fake,it was a direct translation from the raw.

star - Jisho.org

jisho.org

Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary

jisho.org

未来 - Jisho.org

jisho.org

 

[DaReaperMan]

Apologies chief(and Pain), I'll keep being an asshole to zilch here

 

[Alexander]

Im referring to the cartoon stars that appear around earth. While in other areas of space they aren't their at all

are you sure about that?because we can see them being cartoonish still

 

[Everything12]

I also question the notion on how something like Adolla can even “share” a spatial-temporal time space when Adolla is literally just thought and imagination in of itself. Like it’s not even a “real” world at all.

It’s even verbatim stated to be both existent and nonexistent at the same time due to it being thought incarnate. So unless time in the Fire Force universe also encompasses imagination in of itself it should be totally separate from the main Fire Force world as Adolla doesn’t truly exists since it’s just perception.

Not agreeing to this thread, but this isn't really a good counter argument. Time extending to non-existent and realms of pure thought isn't too uncommon in fiction.

Does it make sense, possibly not. But non-existent realms and realms of imagination don't make much sense outside of fiction either.

 

[CloverDragon03]

and where did I drop this arguments? exactly?

Starting here

 

[PrinceofPein]

You wasn't called out for stonewalling/being desperate because you tried to explain they weren't separate space-times continuum's with convincing arguments but wasn't taken seriously because of biases, you where called out for stonewalling/being desperate because you kept regurgitating the same debunked talking points over and over again to ad nauseam. People who aren't even favorable to the series, who don't have intrinsic biases for the series, like Planck thought you were stonewalling, or at least bordering on it.

in fact when i was said to be stonewalling, i was asking questions and not making arguments, at least get that right

Everything posted doesn't inherently prove they share the same space-time continuum. Sure you can interpret such, and i'd believe it would be a valid interpretation to have, at least in a vacuum. But it isn't the only valid interpretation of these scans. And i'll explain why.

Adolla, as in the dimension, is entirely constructed, and given existence by the collective unconscious of mankind, with Adolla being described as "a world of perception" by Shinra since Adolla's the idealization of mankind's unconscious perception and thoughts of everything, it's why things like Doppleganger's exist, which are people's unconscious perception and thoughts about a specific person given form by Adolla.

It's because of this context, that the existence of the previous past of our world existing in Adolla wouldn't necessarily prove they share the same space-time continuum since Adolla's the idealization of mankind's unconscious perception of thoughts, if mankind in the past perceived x, y or z then Adolla would contain x, y and z in its past, regardless if it's consistent with our world, in actuality or not.

The evidence provided wouldn't necessarily prove anything about Adolla existing in the same space-time continuum since Adolla's existence isn't contingent on our space-time continuum, if mankind didn't perceived time linearly then time wouldn't move linearly in Adolla, if mankind didn't perceive past or future then past or future wouldn't exist in Adolla etc... It's because mankind perceives time in a straight line that Adolla has a similar movement of time within it, not because it inherently shares the same space-time continuum as our universe.

I'm not saying that the evidence provided by Pain can't have different valid interpretations, i just believe that, given the evidence, my interpretation requires less assumptions and is more supported by the given evidence compared to Pain's interpretation.

Thanks for the post, but I really do not see how this addresses my post.
The past of human world is not contained in adolla but rather, adolla and the human world have the same past, which means again they are connected, this is not really hard.
My point is that from the realm of adolla, when you travel 250 years into the past, you end up on earth from 250 years ago

I also question the notion on how something like Adolla can even “share” a spatial-temporal time space when Adolla is literally just thought and imagination in of itself. Like it’s not even a “real” world at all.

but for it to be 2-C it has to be physical. you said it is not a physical world, but gives it tier for a real world? how does that work?
So your claim is that adolla is just a non existent universe but we should grant it tier 2 even though it is just imaginations and non-existent?

It’s even verbatim stated to be both existent and nonexistent at the same time due to it being thought incarnate. So unless time in the Fire Force universe also encompasses imagination in of itself it should be totally separate from the main Fire Force world as Adolla doesn’t truly exists since it’s just perception.

Read this thing again. "it says while you can see it exists here, at the same time it does not"
It means the adolla you are seeing here is not the real one and exists elsewhere.
there is nothing about non-existence.
and this would still not disprove the points I made to you above

What. Did I literally just say. About keeping civil? Plus, I wasn't just speaking about you, I was speaking about everyone in this room.

Just because they provoke you doesn't mean you add fuel to the fire.

That goes double for you @DaReaperMan, sorry but I have to.

well I try to stay calm, but respond to 1 out of every 5 provocations its just my rule.
anyway tell the derailing arguments about stars to be stopped also

Starting here

there was no post about timetraveling from what I just went through, the only thing close is this

Also you can physically travel through the two planes. (Sho and shinra)

Just that statement, which is still a bit different from the OP

 

[KLOL506]

well I try to stay calm, but respond to 1 out of every 5 provocations its just my rule.

Make that 0 instead.

anyway tell the derailing arguments about stars to be stopped also

I can't give opinions unless I am given summaries from both sides regarding these stars.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Make that 0 instead.


I can't give opinions unless I am given summaries from both sides regarding these stars.

I think Pain just means that the whole stars thing is not relevant to their argument

 

[PrinceofPein]

Make that 0 instead.

eh i am not a pacifist but I will increase it to 20

I can't give opinions unless I am given summaries from both sides regarding these stars.

I mean any star argument has no place in the thread, it is not my argument

I mean we are in the second page already, you know and only the staff and maitreya and deceived has really replied, so it is one of the reasons why i wanted it to be a staff thread, the derailing gets heavy

 

[Deceived3596]

in fact when i was said to be stonewalling, i was asking questions and not making arguments, at least get that right

I don't agree, you were definitely stonewalling. You have a habit of doing this, to the point of random people who aren't biased against you or your positions calling you out for stonewalling.

Thanks for the post, but I really do not see how this addresses my post.
The past of human world is not contained in adolla but rather, adolla and the human world have the same past, which means again they are connected, this is not really hard.
My point is that from the realm of adolla, when you travel 250 years into the past, you end up on earth from 250 years ago

You didn't read my post if you're asking me this question as i already addressed it.

Just because Adolla shares the same past as our world doesn't mean Adolla shares the same space-time continuum since Adolla's existence is contingent on mankind's unconscious thoughts and perceptions. If mankind, within a specific point of time (say 250 years ago) perceived earth, and everything on it as x, y and z. Then Adolla, within that same specific time would contain x, y and z. That's my entire point.

I don't agree with Adolla and our universe having the same past because they have the same space-time. I agree they have the same past because of mankind's unconscious thoughts and perception creating a similar, but different timeline in Adolla to our universe.

 

[KLOL506]

eh i am not a pacifist but I will increase it to 20

So you're just planning to shoot yourself in the foot with not a shotgun, but a .338 Lapua Magnum armor-piercing, incendiary explosive core round? More power to you then.

I mean any star argument has no place in the thread, it is not my argument

I didn't bring it, my fellow person. For your sake, I will now suggest to not involve the stars if they truly are irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

I mean we are in the second page already, you know and only the staff and maitreya and deceived has really replied, so it is one of the reasons why i wanted it to be a staff thread, the derailing gets heavy

You're not making it any better, TBF. Did you even ask for permission to make a staff-only thread before doing all of this?

 

[PrinceofPein]

I don't agree, you were definitely stonewalling. You have a habit of doing this, to the point of random people who aren't biased against you or your positions calling you out for stonewalling.

check again, stonewalling means you are disruptive of arguments or avoiding questions.
I was asking the question. and it was called stonewalling lol

You didn't read my post if you're asking me this question as i already addressed it.

you really did not

Just because Adolla shares the same past as our world doesn't mean Adolla shares the same space-time continuum since Adolla's existence is contingent on mankind's unconscious thoughts and perceptions. If mankind, within a specific point of time (say 250 years ago) perceived earth, and everything on it as x, y and z. Then Adolla, within that same specific time would contain x, y and z. That's my entire point.

Well this is were you are wrong, if it was what the humans from 250 years ago perceived, then it should be war and despair he ends up in as said in chapter 255.
And I understand your point perfectly, you are claiming that what he traveled to was the thoughts and imaginations of humans from 250 years ago, well sorry to break it to you but you are wrong and shinra and sumire said otherwise. and I will go with them since I will like to think the author spoke through them
Please actually address my arguments, if you do not understand I will explain it to you.
I actually understood your arguments but that will be going against direct statements from the manga. If he ended in the imagination of people from 250 years ago, it should be war and destruction. again chapter 216, 255 and 286 for more context. So your assumptions here do not work.

 

[Reio35]

the other translation was not fake,it was a direct translation from the raw.

star - Jisho.org

jisho.org

Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary

jisho.org

未来 - Jisho.org

jisho.org

Hoshi can also mean a planet it doesn't only mean star and when the cataclysm completed we only see the planet affected. Also viz translated it to mean planet

They are literally in that scan lol there are cartoon shapes stars in that literal scan

Because the Great Cataclysm hadn’t been completed

In the end the earth was only affected. Arthur who was outside the planet wasn't even affected

notice how space is 2d and not 3d

adolla initially changed the world from our real 3rd world to 2d across the entire universe

That's just your interpretation. This could just the writers artistic expression showing real life photos to represent the worlds past. Their is also a scan were their past was not shown in 3D. Also even if they did change the dimension It's only stated it affected earth.

 

[KLOL506]

Please, no more stars argument, this isn't Resident Evil 3

 

[Alexander]

That's just your interpretation. This could just the writers artistic expression showing real life photos to represent the worlds past. Their is also a scan were their past was not shown in 3D. Also even if they did change the dimension It's only stated it affected earth.

I mean, are you telling me that only the planet was converted into 3D and everything was 2D? How stupid is that?also is stated by giovanni that not only the planet,but the universe will be affected.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Please, no more stars argument, this isn't Resident Evil 3

S.T.A.R.S!

 

[KLOL506]

S.T.A.R.S!

Don't make me pull out the Jill Sandwich.

 

[Maitreya12]

My point is that from the realm of adolla, when you travel 250 years into the past, you end up on earth from 250 years ago

This is not true considering Shinra did travel 250 years in the past in the real world and he didn’t end up in the world pre cataclysm. In fact the man that existed in the world pre and post cataclysm didn’t even realize reality was warped. Just concerned over his material matters, didn’t even have any recollection the world was fundamentally different from before.

The history of humanity pre-cataclysm is only ever shown through Adolla because Adolla embodies and is that very history of despair.

but for it to be 2-C it has to be physical. you said it is not a physical world, but gives it tier for a real world? how does that work?
So your claim is that adolla is just a non existent universe but we should grant it tier 2 even though it is just imaginations and non-existent?

My dude please that’s not what the scans say nor the argument I’m making because that’s not what they said. Adolla is both existent and non-existent at the same time.

Nonexistent physiology is a thing you know? What you’re trying to claim is that these two worlds are spatio-temporally connected when you have yet to demonstrate space and time encompasses something that doesn’t truly exist naturally on its own.

Read this thing again. "it says while you can see it exists here, at the same time it does not"
It means the adolla you are seeing here is not the real one and exists elsewhere.
there is nothing about non-existence.
and this would still not disprove the points I made to you above

No he says “it exists RIGHT HERE, but at the same time it does not. This too is thought given form.”

It means that the Adolla you are seeing doesn’t truly exist because it’s just thought and imagination. Pure and straight. Nowhere does it say, “Adolla is someone else.” It’s verbatim stated that what they’re looking at is thought itself given form which both exists and does not exist.

 

[Reio35]

I mean, are you telling me that only the planet was converted into 3D and everything was 2D? How stupid is that?also is stated by giovanni that not only the planet,but the universe will be affected.

It was only the planet the old earth got turned into sun which is still in sky and again their the past isn't only shown in 3D. Giovanni is exaggerating. If the universe was going to be destroyed aurthr wouldn't be alive post cataclysm in space.

 

[Deceived3596]

check again, stonewalling means you are disruptive of arguments or avoiding questions.
I was asking the question. and it was called stonewalling lol

I don't agree.

you really did not

I did.

Well this is were you are wrong, if it was what the humans from 250 years ago perceived, then it should be war and despair he ends up in as said in chapter 255.
And I understand your point perfectly, you are claiming that what he traveled to was the thoughts and imaginations of humans from 250 years ago, well sorry to break it to you but you are wrong and shinra and sumire said otherwise. and I will go with them since I will like to think the author spoke through them
Please actually address my arguments, if you do not understand I will explain it to you.
I actually understood your arguments but that will be going against direct statements from the manga. If he ended in the imagination of people from 250 years ago, it should be war and destruction. again chapter 216, 255 and 286 for more context. So your assumptions here do not work.

No? just because despair and war was perceived and thought about doesn't mean everything within the past would just include war and despair, especially within the context of Japan, that doesn't prove anything Pain. War and despair could've been happening, but since Shinra was specifically in Japan during that time, and Japan wasn't having ******* wars going on in the country, he wouldn't have visually seen those wars himself.

They didn't.

I did.

It doesn't go against direct statements from the manga, my arguments falls completely in-line with those statements. And I've already addressed the "war and destruction" point above, just because people perceived war and destruction in the past doesn't disprove the objective fact that people's perceptions and thoughts about anything else also existed during the same time, and that's proven by Shinra going back into the past of Adolla's conception of our world's past during that point of time.

 

[Alexander]

It was only the planet the old earth got turned into sun which is still in sky and again their the past isn't onl Giovanni is exaggerating. If the universe was destroyed aurthr wouldn't be alive post cataclysm in space.

again,why are you argumentating that the earth was 3D and anything beyond earth was 2D?that does not make sense,also,why giovanni,someone who literraly is the one who make part of the people who start the cataclysm,will be exagerated?