THE END OF ALL FIRE FORCE TIER 2 THREADS!!!

[Maitreya12]

Stop. With. The. Stars. And. Reality. Argument.

Seriously, it’s a discussion that’s already been had. @Reio35 if you had contentions with the star and or reality argument you could’ve brought it up in the CRT that was made previously which lasted for 2 weeks. As of now it’s regarded that the entire universe and the stars were being merged and reality warped by Adolla. This CRT is simply about the scaling to tier 2.

Other members and supporters of the series please do not derail this thread with needless arguments unrelated to the topic of this CRT at hand.

 

[Maitreya12]

Not agreeing to this thread, but this isn't really a good counter argument. Time extending to non-existent and realms of pure thought isn't too uncommon in fiction.

Does it make sense, possibly not. But non-existent realms and realms of imagination don't make much sense outside of fiction either.

Ok thanks for clarification.

I didn’t know time was seen that way in regards to realms of pure imagination since…well like you said it’s bit of a mind numbing topic lol.

Though I still wonder if the same time-stream applies if the world of thought and imagination is completely disconnected from the real world in general.

 

[SuperStar]

Please, no more stars argument, this isn't Resident Evil 3

Resident Evil 6 >

 

[Maitreya12]

There was but that is past now and it does not matter

Almost missed this one response lol.

if they are disconnected time travel from one will not affect the other, so yes it is not disconnected

Can you prove you can travel to the pre-cataclysm world from the real world? Because if not then my point about Adolla embodying the previous history of mankind remains the same.

that is what happen when you are passed out or in a coma
Burns and joker were in adolla for some moments and they came back to earth and months did not pass
Shinra, sho e.t.c. it happened over and over again and months did not pass.

He wasn’t passed out or in a coma though he was literally having a doppelgänger live his life. Also literally every other time in Adolla they’re only there for moments while Shinra was in a dream-scape.

the FAQ says otherwise, change that.

I think it’s just you who’s saying otherwise here.

Adolla carrying the history of mankind despair does not change anything.
I don't think you understand what I am saying here

It does because you’re saying the history of the pre-cataclysm past is connected to the history of post-cataclysm present. Adolla carrying that history and past and merging it with the present world debunks that notion though as a clear distinction is made between the concepts of the people of the past and the people of the present as the worlds mix and so do the separate concepts and ideas of both realities.

think of it as two lines
one is adolla and one is earth
their end is connected, got separated for 250 years then joined back together again, that according to tier 2 standard does not qualify for tier 2.

Who says they were ever originally connected in the first place? It was originally two lines disconnected and then being connected. That is tier 2.

It just does not qualify it is not a maybe, it does not.
but in this case there is no proof of them even separating for 250 years, I am using that as an illustration that even if that was the case it will not be tier 2.
Again to quote the standards
"Two universes A and B are spatio-temporally separate if and only if, there are no point in space and time that are both in A and B"

I don’t think my point is being addressed. In that there is no point in space and time where the real 3D world pre-cataclysm are in the present world post cataclysm. They are completely separate from one another and even directly affect the history of the people living within them as with the wandering man. At no point is the time of the pre-cataclysm world showed through the real world, only ever through Adolla.

Adolla carrying the history of humanities despair pre-cataclysm does not debunk this notion due to the fact that Adolla is carrying the concept of despair and its history itself. So it can carry the past of the pre-cataclysm world while being spatio-temporally disconnected from one another as Adolla embodies its very concept.

So it is really not me, you need to proof the standard wrong or say why FF qualifies against the standard

I have very in depth explained why in that the history of the world pre-cataclysm is carried and embodied in Adolla.

Well if we are talking about knowledgeable members on tier 2, I would count myself as one actually and aside Planc, I have not really seen anyone of them else in tier 2 threads

You do you bro.

 

[Maitreya12]

To staff in regards to 2-C scaling:​

Ok I just want this to be known and out there because honestly, I think we’ve firmly planted our positions down between the proposition’s downgrade and the oppositions remained placement.

Pain: Adolla and the universe are connected because Shinra travels to the past in Adolla….yada yada so one so forth the two universe share the same time-space.

Me (and others): Adolla and the universe are separate because it’s a separate reality….yada yada Adolla embodies the concept of history for humanities despair and “world” itself and is merging…blah blah whatever. Adolla and the real world are two separate time spaces merging.

I think we’ve each planted our positions firmly into the ground by now so I’d like to hear other staff thoughts on the matter in regards to the evidence. I know a couple have already commented their positions but some haven’t and I’d just like to clarify my stance on the matters in hopes that this thread isn’t like 9 pages like the last one.

In regards to scaling to 2-C in specific.​

I’ll be straight and say originally I didn’t plan on Shinra being a solid 2-C. Initially I was pushing for low 2-C for a couple reasons. One I didn’t want push too high with what I knew was going to be a relatively contentions CRT and two I was actually under the impression it wouldn’t qualify. It wasn’t until other staff members mentioned it being a valid 2-C feat that I took the position seriously in regards for Shinra’s scaling.

Now I don’t mind the 2-C scaling. I quite like it actually and get behind and agree with the logic behind it. But it’s not something I really….expected to happen for the CRT really.

What I’m saying is that like, if you guys in regards to staff feel as though it would be more acceptable or it may be more appropriate or if it’ll get Pain to shut up (I’m joking) for the feat to be lower like universal+ instead of low multiversal level, it’s like whatever for me bro right.

I guess formally I would say that I agree that the scaling should be a solid 2-C, but if it’s not it’s not right. It’s just a matter on if the staff think it can be considered a totally valid multiversal feat instead of universal+. Which for that there may be a discussion to be had. I’m like putty on the position.

I will not accept anything below Low 2-C however

Sorry if I’m like trying to push this thread to be over kinda quickly, I understand it still needs at least another good 32 hours before this CRT can be closed, I just don’t want it to go on much longer than that and argue for an extra 5 pages. Which seems to be the trajectory for this thread . If I need to make a final “summary” post on the position I can.

If any other member wants to continue this discussion with Pain in arguing for the position of 2-C, by all means be my guest. I just don’t wanna be bogged down arguing for essentially the same thing we just concluded with 2 days ago.

I got school to focus on my dudes

 

[PowerToScale]

I'll say something later when I get the chance.

 

[Reiner04]

Me (and others): Adolla and the universe are separate because it’s a separate reality….yada yada Adolla embodies the concept of history for humanities despair and “world” itself and is merging…blah blah whatever. Adolla and the real world are two separate time spaces merging.

This is what I am saying, adolla world is a conceptual realm of unconscious psychic. It's not a material world and are in interaction to the physical world constantly, not entirely separate but still are 2 worlds responsible for very shapes/reality/physics/time space and all of fundamental reality. It is tier 2 in least

 

[RoyGundam]

so this is the first thread correcting the ratings.

The Arrogance

 

[Robo432343]

dude....why would you make something like this right after it got accepted?

 

[PrinceofPein]

This is not true considering Shinra did travel 250 years in the past in the real world and he didn’t end up in the world pre cataclysm.

This the thoughts and flashback from the infernal and not shinra traveling 250 years, I mean where did you even get that.
Shinra was fighin him and moments before he died he had a flash back wtf
#chapter 121 for more references to anyone who needs to context

In fact the man that existed in the world pre and post cataclysm didn’t even realize reality was warped. Just concerned over his material matters, didn’t even have any recollection the world was fundamentally different from before.

Why do we need to mention it? like why exactly does he need to mention this in a flash back? and this does not still disprove this points

The history of humanity pre-cataclysm is only ever shown through Adolla because Adolla embodies and is that very history of despair.

what was shown was the past, again here

direct statements from the manga.

My dude please that’s not what the scans say nor the argument I’m making because that’s not what they said. Adolla is both existent and non-existent at the same time.

"while you can see it exists right here, at the same time it does not"
Let me break it down, look at the reflection of the moon over a water and I said "while you can see it right there, it is not there" does that mean the moon does not exist?

Nonexistent physiology is a thing you know? What you’re trying to claim is that these two worlds are spatio-temporally connected when you have yet to demonstrate space and time encompasses something that doesn’t truly exist naturally on its own.

No he says “it exists RIGHT HERE, but at the same time it does not. This too is thought given form.”

yes it does not mean non-existent, it just mean it does not exist here and does not really address what I am saying.

It means that the Adolla you are seeing doesn’t truly exist because it’s just thought and imagination. Pure and straight. Nowhere does it say, “Adolla is someone else.” It’s verbatim stated that what they’re looking at is thought itself given form which both exists and does not exist.

Again stop missing the "here" part.

No? just because despair and war was perceived and thought about doesn't mean everything within the past would just include war and despair, especially within the context of Japan, that doesn't prove anything Pain. War and despair could've been happening, but since Shinra was specifically in Japan during that time, and Japan wasn't having ******* wars going on in the country, he wouldn't have visually seen those wars himself.

They didn't.

I did.

It doesn't go against direct statements from the manga, my arguments falls completely in-line with those statements. And I've already addressed the "war and destruction" point above, just because people perceived war and destruction in the past doesn't disprove the objective fact that people's perceptions and thoughts about anything else also existed during the same time, and that's proven by Shinra going back into the past of Adolla's conception of our world's past during that point of time.

Bro, argue with the manga, I am not interested on roundabout arguments.
To say it, when we are shown the world of adolla it is always characterized by black flames.
No offense but Your claim is nonsense.
You are claiming that the world they went into was the world the humans of then imagined when the author said and I quote "this is Tokyo from 250 years ago"
He did not say "this is the world the humans imagined or wanted 250 years ago".
It was a direct statement, we see people in office walking on the street and all. Coupled with the statement again read 216, 255 and 286
At least bring actual arguments, thank you.
Cause this whole claim that it is the world of imagination that was imagined is far off the mark.

Can you prove you can travel to the pre-cataclysm world from the real world? Because if not then my point about Adolla embodying the previous history of mankind remains the same.

And why would I do that? When I already showed that you can travel back to earth past through adolla.
What you are claiming here is that earth past no longer exists, and if you turn back the time 250 years it would no longer exists?
Well the talking infernal from the space in between and the talking animals or the first pillar and sumire, says otherwise since they said they have been here for 250 years meaning the past still exists

He wasn’t passed out or in a coma though he was literally having a doppelgänger live his life. Also literally every other time in Adolla they’re only there for moments while Shinra was in a dream-scape.

I made a likelihood I said it's like a coma.
Your claim is that moments in adolla is months on earth I just proved that wrong and that's all

I think it’s just you who’s saying otherwise here.

Read it I posted it above

It does because you’re saying the history of the pre-cataclysm past is connected to the history of post-cataclysm present. Adolla carrying that history and past and merging it with the present world debunks that notion though as a clear distinction is made between the concepts of the people of the past and the people of the present as the worlds mix and so do the separate concepts and ideas of both realities.

Read above

Who says they were ever originally connected in the first place? It was originally two lines disconnected and then being connected. That is tier 2.

Oh again
Read the FAQ, you won't die if you do

I don’t think my point is being addressed. In that there is no point in space and time where the real 3D world pre-cataclysm are in the present world post cataclysm. They are completely separate from one another and even directly affect the history of the people living within them as with the wandering man. At no point is the time of the pre-cataclysm world showed through the real world, only ever through Adolla.

Again it was shown through
The taking infernal, sumire and the first pillar the last pillar in the forest, your claim here is that the past from 250 years ago no longer exists in the real world, please bring proof

Adolla carrying the history of humanities despair pre-cataclysm does not debunk this notion due to the fact that Adolla is carrying the concept of despair and its history itself. So it can carry the past of the pre-cataclysm world while being spatio-temporally disconnected from one another as Adolla embodies its very concept.

Adolla carrying the history is not my claim
Again read this
My claim is adolla shares the same past as proven above.
Hence according to our standard they are not separate space times

I have very in depth explained why in that the history of the world pre-cataclysm is carried and embodied in Adolla.

That was never my argument and neither disprove my arguments.
Adolla has the same past as the real world hence would not qualify for two separate and disconnected space times

If any other member wants to continue this discussion with Pain in arguing for the position of 2-C, by all means be my guest. I just don’t wanna be bogged down arguing for essentially the same thing we just concluded with 2 days ago.

This was not argued 2 days ago tho.
Anyway what I am concerned with is the 2-C

This is what I am saying, adolla world is a conceptual realm of unconscious psychic. It's not a material world and are in interaction to the physical world constantly, not entirely separate but still are 2 worlds responsible for very shapes/reality/physics/time space and all of fundamental reality. It is tier 2 in least

That's the thing the tier of adolla should come from shaping reality of a world or universe for argument sake.
But right now it comes from it been a separate space time which according to our standard will not qualify and also merging.

 

[Lemonade125]

dude....why would you make something like this right after it got accepted?

Bro wanna get packed
********* fr

 

[Reiner04]

That's the thing the tier of adolla should come from shaping reality of a world or universe for argument sake.
But right now it comes from it been a separate space time which according to our standard will not qualify and also merging.

I can agree with it.

Bro wanna get packed
********* fr

Stop the mockings dude.

 

[Lemonade125]

Stop the mockings dude.

 

[Alexander]

This is what I am saying, adolla world is a conceptual realm of unconscious psychic. It's not a material world and are in interaction to the physical world constantly, not entirely separate but still are 2 worlds responsible for very shapes/reality/physics/time space and all of fundamental reality. It is tier 2 in least

that is correct,adolla is the collective unconcioness of humanity,and things like the collective unconcioness are not physical,they are more ideal and conceptual in nature.

I mean, seriously, there are beings that embody human ideas and perceptions, people think of Shinra as a demon, but he is the opposite, people think of Raffles as a hero, and his doppleganger would be exactly that (well not totally in the definition of hero) and the most notable example is that the evangelist who is despair has a doppleganger who is mary, and is hope (like the virgin mary)

 

[PowerToScale]

Okay, I'm back

Adolla is a separate dimension to the main universe, as shown in the in the scans, it is constantly called an "another dimension", "the otherworld" and a "higher plane" distinguishing it being completely separate from the universe. To further this point, whenever the discussion of Adolla and universe comes into play, they are always distinguished as separate worlds to one another, "the evangelist isn't in this world- she is in adolla", "why would I have something from another dimension? I live on earth", it's called "the otherworld adolla" several times and constantly distinguished with "this/our world and adolla". By the clear description and verbiage used in the series, Adolla is a separate dimension complete cut from the universe.

We can also see that Adolla is spatial separate as space is first torn between the two worlds as a result of their merging. This same spatial tear doesn't allow access beyond it and we see that the evangelist emerges from it who is stated to reside in Adolla, showing that it is impossible to physically travel to Adolla due to a spatail barrier. Physical travel wasn't possible until the merger started, which brought Adolla closer to the world and resulted in both of them being connected by the eye, which made the physical travel possible.

Adolla also has a different time flow shown by when Shinra's conciseness has spent several minutes in the Adolla while 3 months had past in the main universes time, without noticing the different in the flow of time. while not concrete it indicates temporal difference between the two dimensions. Adolla's is the world human ideations, it's existence is independent of space-time. Time wouldn't pass in Adolla in linearly if humans didn't perceive it as such. Adolla's time flow is similar to that of our world because time is perceived by humans as travelling in a straight line, not because Adolla shares our universe's space-time continuum.

Tl;dr:

• Repeatedly referred to its own separate dimensions and as a entire other world to the main universe.
• Shown that spatial barrier blocks physical travel between the worlds.
• Indication of a temporal difference between the two worlds.

Still disagree

 

[Maitreya12]

This the thoughts and flashback from the infernal and not shinra traveling 250 years, I mean where did you even get that.
Shinra was fighin him and moments before he died he had a flash back wtf
#chapter 121 for more references to anyone who needs to context

My dude read the scan it literally says Shinra traveled 250 years in the past what. “Shinra kicks into the past.”

He even went on a whole spiel in chapter 121 about how he only needed 1 second to see into the past and beat him. You understand the way Shinra sees people’s memories is by traveling into the past right?

I honestly have no idea what your contention with this is.

Why do we need to mention it? like why exactly does he need to mention this in a flash back? and this does not still disprove this points

Because it’s showing the straight history of that man was distorted since to him reality is the same even though he existed pre and post cataclysm.

The same goes for literally everyone who survived the first cataclysm. Not a single soul mentions how reality was altered because to them it’s still the same as it was from the past. Even though we know that’s not true.

what was shown was the past, again here

Yeah…in the world of Adolla. That doesn’t mean the pre-cataclysm past is shared in the same space-time in Adolla as it is in the real world.

"while you can see it exists right here, at the same time it does not"
Let me break it down, look at the reflection of the moon over a water and I said "while you can see it right there, it is not there" does that mean the moon does not exist?

Yeah the moon that you are referring to wouldn’t be in the reflection in the water what. It wouldn’t “exist” in the reflection yes that is correct. When you say “this is thought given form while it exists at the same time it does not.” That literally means the very thoughts exists and doesn’t at the same time. You know because it’s imagination itself.

It even straight up absorbs the thoughts of people too. So yeah it very much is on those boarders between existing and non existing.

yes it does not mean non-existent, it just mean it does not exist here and does not really address what I am saying.

No it says “it does not exist while at the same time it does.” By definition that’s non-existent physiology even by our own standards.

Again stop missing the "here" part.

“While we can see it exists right here, at the same time it does not.”

That says the Adolla they’re looking at doesn’t exist and at the same time does. Stop trying to skew the words around.

Bro, argue with the manga, I am not interested on roundabout arguments.
To say it, when we are shown the world of adolla it is always characterized by black flames.
No offense but Your claim is nonsense.
You are claiming that the world they went into was the world the humans of then imagined when the author said and I quote "this is Tokyo from 250 years ago"
He did not say "this is the world the humans imagined or wanted 250 years ago".
It was a direct statement, we see people in office walking on the street and all. Coupled with the statement again read 216, 255 and 286
At least bring actual arguments, thank you.
Cause this whole claim that it is the world of imagination that was imagined is far off the mark.

What are you even saying here????

Are you arguing with a ghost right now what are talking about? Adolla by definition is the world of imagination. You don’t like that argue with the manga not me.

The world pre-cataclysm was not something “imagined” into by Adolla. It was just the actual way the world was before. If anything the world post cataclysm was the world that was directly imagined by humanity because Adolla changes things based on human perception. So reality being changed from 3D to 2D was because that’s what humans envisioned the world to be and thus that’s how the world was altered.

The world they saw was the world pre-cataclysm which is when reality wasn’t altered by Adolla’s imagination. That reality that Adolla carries the very history of. Not “just Tokyo” but humanities whole history of despair.

You actually just….talked about something completely irrelevant to the point I made what.

And why would I do that? When I already showed that you can travel back to earth past through adolla.
What you are claiming here is that earth past no longer exists, and if you turn back the time 250 years it would no longer exists?
Well the talking infernal from the space in between and the talking animals or the first pillar and sumire, says otherwise since they said they have been here for 250 years meaning the past still exists

No I’m claiming that Adolla is a separate space-time from the real world. Them sharing the same past doesn’t dispute that notion because Adolla embodies the very past itself, not because it’s sharing the same space-time as the two worlds are completely disconnected from one another.

The fact that the infernal preacher or the other talking animals have no recollection of reality before the alteration shows a fundamental shift in the time for all the people and animals in reality. Even Sumire was shown reminiscing about the pre-cataclysm past when in Adolla first and foremost.

I made a likelihood I said it's like a coma.
Your claim is that moments in adolla is months on earth I just proved that wrong and that's all

You did not “prove” it wrong since you did not address my argument lmao. Please next time address my argument before simply claiming someone is wrong.

Shinra experienced different time flow while he was in Adolla. He even straight up says he lost time. That proves different time flows between Adolla and the real world. You don’t like that you can argue with the manga not me.

Read it I posted it above

See above and below.

Read above

See above and below.

Oh again
Read the FAQ, you won't die if you do

See above and below.

Again it was shown through
The taking infernal, sumire and the first pillar the last pillar in the forest, your claim here is that the past from 250 years ago no longer exists in the real world, please bring proof

The talking infernal literally has no distinction between the world pre-cataclysm and post-cataclysm. The fact that he doesn’t supports the notion that the very past of humanity was altered. My claim is that Adolla is a separate space-time from the real world. It does not “share” a space-time with the real world. It simply “has” the time and history of humanity in its own world as it embodies its very concept.

Adolla carrying the history is not my claim
Again read this
My claim is adolla shares the same past as proven above.
Hence according to our standard they are not separate space times

Adolla sharing the same past doesn’t equate to sharing the same space-time though as people have already pointed out.

That was never my argument and neither disprove my arguments.
Adolla has the same past as the real world hence would not qualify for two separate and disconnected space times

Having the same past=/= sharing the same space-time especially when Adolla straight up embodies the very history of mankind itself. In fact Adolla being conceptual history in nature is a fundamental distinction from regular 4D time.

You’re trying to say Adolla carrying the very concept and idea of the time of humanity pre-cataclysm is the same as just regular time-flow in the universe when there’s literally a conceptual distinction between them.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Okay, I'm back

Adolla is a separate dimension to the main universe, as shown in the in the scans, it is constantly called an "another dimension", "the otherworld" and a "higher plane" distinguishing it being completely separate from the universe. To further this point, whenever the discussion of Adolla and universe comes into play, they are always distinguished as separate worlds to one another, "the evangelist isn't in this world- she is in adolla", "why would I have something from another dimension? I live on earth", it's called "the otherworld adolla" several times and constantly distinguished with "this/our world and adolla". By the clear description and verbiage used in the series, Adolla is a separate dimension complete cut from the universe.

We can also see that Adolla is spatial separate as space is first torn between the two worlds as a result of their merging. This same spatial tear doesn't allow access beyond it and we see that the evangelist emerges from it who is stated to reside in Adolla, showing that it is impossible to physically travel to Adolla due to a spatail barrier. Physical travel wasn't possible until the merger started, which brought Adolla closer to the world and resulted in both of them being connected by the eye, which made the physical travel possible.

Adolla also has a different time flow shown by when Shinra's conciseness has spent several minutes in the Adolla while 3 months had past in the main universes time, without noticing the different in the flow of time. while not concrete it indicates temporal difference between the two dimensions. Adolla's is the world human ideations, it's existence is independent of space-time. Time wouldn't pass in Adolla in linearly if humans didn't perceive it as such. Adolla's time flow is similar to that of our world because time is perceived by humans as travelling in a straight line, not because Adolla shares our universe's space-time continuum.

Tl;dr:

• Repeatedly referred to its own separate dimensions and as a entire other world to the main universe.
• Shown that spatial barrier blocks physical travel between the worlds.
• Indication of a temporal difference between the two worlds.

let me reiterate this simply, all this is true and adolla is still connected. they are obviously two different dimensions, that is never my argument.
Read my argument
Adolla is another world
Adolla is another dimension
Adolla is not spatio-temporally disconnected from the real world tho
Do you get that now, it been another dimension does not mean it is spatio temporally dsiconnected. it is really that simple, so again all these is true, but nothing here says it is spatio-temporally disconnected.
For there to even be argument of spatio-temporally connected or not, they have to be different dimensions to begin with
All you proved is that they are different dimensions and no one or me has ever said they are not.
Again, they are different dimensions, but they are spatio-temporally connected

Having the same past=/= sharing the same space-time

uhhhm dude read the FAQ page, it is not so hard to see that it means they are connected.
if they have the same past they are connected

got to go will reply to the rest later

 

[CloverDragon03]

Wouldn’t Adolla representing the collective unconscious mean that it would have the same past simply by humanity perceiving the events of the past that way?

 

[Reiner04]

Wouldn’t Adolla representing the collective unconscious mean that it would have the same past simply by humanity perceiving the events of the past that way?

Yeah as far as I know about archetypes and collective unconscious psychic realm, this world is a world of perception and adolla world is simply concepts of all things. Like beauty is a concept and we all percieve it differently (our standards for beauty is different) but they'll are still falls under concept of beauty.

Tbh, that guy travelling back to earth through adolla world seems like anti feat to me because the way adolla world works, it shouldn't be possible.

 

[Maitreya12]

uhhhm dude read the FAQ page, it is not so hard to see that it means they are connected.
if they have the same past they are connected

got to go will reply to the rest later

My dude please it’s perfectly fine for you to snip my argument to avoid long posts, just represent it right. That’s all I ask.

Wouldn’t Adolla representing the collective unconscious mean that it would have the same past simply by humanity perceiving the events of the past that way?

^

Exactly as said above, that is the argument. That Adolla embodying the history of humanities despair itself means it fundamentally has the same past and time as the present world because it’s the concept itself right.

That doesn’t mean it shares the same space-time though as the Adolla world is explicitly said to be disconnected from the real world. It’s still a separate space-time that just carries the concept of the real world’s history.

…That’s it….

 

[PowerToScale]

let me reiterate this simply, all this is true and adolla is still connected. they are obviously two different dimensions, that is never my argument.
Read my argument
Adolla is another world
Adolla is another dimension
Adolla is not spatio-temporally disconnected from the real world tho
Do you get that now, it been another dimension does not mean it is spatio temporally dsiconnected. it is really that simple, so again all these is true, but nothing here says it is spatio-temporally disconnected.
For there to even be argument of spatio-temporally connected or not, they have to be different dimensions to begin with
All you proved is that they are different dimensions and no one or me has ever said they are not.
Again, they are different dimensions, but they are spatio-temporally connected

However, you seem to fail to see that I have addressed them being spatio-temporally disconnected as outlined that they are inaccessible to each other spatially and that that Adolla has it's own time flow.

We can also see that Adolla is spatial separate as space is first torn between the two worlds as a result of their merging. This same spatial tear doesn't allow access beyond it and we see that the evangelist emerges from it who is stated to reside in Adolla, showing that it is impossible to physically travel to Adolla due to a spatail barrier. Physical travel wasn't possible until the merger started, which brought Adolla closer to the world and resulted in both of them being connected by the eye, which made the physical travel possible. Adolla also has a different time flow shown by when Shinra's conciseness has spent several minutes in the Adolla while 3 months had past in the main universes time, without noticing the different in the flow of time. while not concrete it indicates temporal difference between the two dimensions. Adolla's is the world human ideations, it's existence is independent of space-time. Time wouldn't pass in Adolla in linearly if humans didn't perceive it as such. Adolla's time flow is similar to that of our world because time is perceived by humans as travelling in a straight line, not because Adolla shares our universe's space-time continuum. Tl;dr: Repeatedly referred to its own separate dimensions and as a entire other world to the main universe. Shown that spatial barrier blocks physical travel between the worlds. (Spatially separated) Indication of a temporal difference between the two worlds. (Temporally separated)

Wouldn’t Adolla representing the collective unconscious mean that it would have the same past simply by humanity perceiving the events of the past that way?

Adolla is the personification of the history of humanities despair, which means that because it is the concept/notion/idea itself, it has the same past and present as the modern world.

Best analogy I can think of:

Imagine a copied file that is basically the same as the original file and has the information (concepts) of the original file, but is entirely different. That is how it is like a copy of the universe. The same is true of Adolla (higher plane/dimension), which is completely separate from the world but embodies all the same ideas due to embodying human concepts and ideas. Due to the linear nature of time as defined by human concepts, Adolla time flows linearly.

 

[Deceived3596]

Bro, argue with the manga, I am not interested on roundabout arguments.
To say it, when we are shown the world of adolla it is always characterized by black flames.
No offense but Your claim is nonsense.
You are claiming that the world they went into was the world the humans of then imagined when the author said and I quote "this is Tokyo from 250 years ago"
He did not say "this is the world the humans imagined or wanted 250 years ago".
It was a direct statement, we see people in office walking on the street and all. Coupled with the statement again read 216, 255 and 286
At least bring actual arguments, thank you.
Cause this whole claim that it is the world of imagination that was imagined is far off the mark.

I'm not arguing against the manga since the manga itself agrees with my interpretation just as much, if not more compared to your claim, also these aren't "roundabout" arguments, i'm being very direct with you.

I don't believe my claims are nonsense but you can have that opinion.

The statement doesn't disprove my argument? if i'm arguing that people 250 years ago perceived and thought about, say Tokyo. Causing Adolla during that exact same point in time to retain what Tokyo, and our world looked like, then Shinra traveling back in time to that specific point of time in Adolla wouldn't be an innate contradiction. Shinra saying "this is Tokyo from 250 years ago" doesn't disprove either claims, in fact, it proves both claims simultaneously, meaning it's neutral evidence, and doesn't point to either claim being more likely true or false.

He doesn't need to say such when the statement provided can be logically interpret as such.

Post the statements.

I've brought up multiple arguments, which multiple people agree with, don't devalue my arguments like that Pain.

It isn't.

 

[God900]

̶H̶m̶m̶m̶.̶.̶.̶I̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶.̶ ̶I̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶c̶h̶i̶m̶e̶s̶t̶r̶y̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶w̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶D̶e̶c̶e̶i̶v̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶P̶a̶i̶n̶.̶ ̶
̶Y̶o̶u̶ ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶ ̶h̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶e̶a̶c̶h̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶,̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶l̶o̶v̶e̶ ̶e̶a̶c̶h̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶

 

[CurrySenpai]

̶H̶m̶m̶m̶.̶.̶.̶I̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶.̶ ̶I̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶c̶h̶i̶m̶e̶s̶t̶r̶y̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶w̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶D̶e̶c̶e̶i̶v̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶P̶a̶i̶n̶.̶ ̶
̶Y̶o̶u̶ ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶ ̶h̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶e̶a̶c̶h̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶,̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶l̶o̶v̶e̶ ̶e̶a̶c̶h̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶

Probably best not to derail at all. We're already on page 2 but obviously I disagree FRA if I didn't already say that.

 

[God900]

Yeah I know. Besides.

I disagree with the proposed downgrade after skimming a bit through this thread.

 

[RitsuØ1]

Disagree FRA.

 

[KLOL506]

Disagree FRA. Dude thought he would've gotten away by making it this a STAFF ONLY thread.

The last part seems a bit too excessive, no? We already changed the thread to being a normal CRT after all.

 

[RitsuØ1]

The last part seems a bit too excessive, no? We already changed the thread to being a normal CRT after all.

Yeah. I'll tone it down.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Can’t believe I stopped getting notifications here

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I disagree FRA

even though you are my friend/follower @Pain_to12

 

[Arnoldstone18]

even though you are my friend/follower @Pain_to12

F

 

[PrinceofPein]

The statement doesn't disprove my argument? if i'm arguing that people 250 years ago perceived and thought about, say Tokyo. Causing Adolla during that exact same point in time to retain what Tokyo, and our world looked like, then Shinra traveling back in time to that specific point of time in Adolla wouldn't be an innate contradiction. Shinra saying "this is Tokyo from 250 years ago" doesn't disprove either claims, in fact, it proves both claims simultaneously, meaning it's neutral evidence, and doesn't point to either claim being more likely true or false.

He doesn't need to say such when the statement provided can be logically interpret as such.

Post the statements.

I've brought up multiple arguments, which multiple people agree with, don't devalue my arguments like that Pain.

Wouldn’t Adolla representing the collective unconscious mean that it would have the same past simply by humanity perceiving the events of the past that way?

Sorry i lumped both of you together, but since you are practically saying the same thing, permit me
you claims is that the world they traveled to was the world that the humans of then perceived, Which is where you are wrong, the people of the past, specifically perceived the past to have a manga style type of world, so practically he should be seeing manga art style and not the real life look like styles.
you guys do realize that the reason why the earth style of the world changed was because the people think the world is manga-like. And this is for the direct statements that deceived asked for.
It does not say the past of adolla, it says the past of earth, the past of the world befpre the great cataclysm. Nothing gets more direct than that.

the Adolla world is explicitly said to be disconnected from the real world

Please send the scan of this

However, you seem to fail to see that I have addressed them being spatio-temporally disconnected as outlined that they are inaccessible to each other spatially and that that Adolla has it's own time flow.

two different dimensions are supposed to have a veil separating them or you kbnow they will not be two different dimensiions but instead a single one, since if there is nothing separating them then the worlds will just be one, and time flow point althoug irrelevant since we have this already

Note that time flowing at different rates (faster or slower) in different places is not enough proof that they are separate universes or space-time continuums, for even in a single universe or pocket dimension, we can have different flows of time.

You know timeflow cannot be used as proof of different universe.
but i also provided examples up above of adolla time not flowing faster then earth time like you guys claim, you know, Shinra, Shot, BUrns, Joker, Inca, the first pillar, Haumea e.t.c.
they were all shown to spend time in adolla and time did not pass.
That aside do you get that a veil is necessary for their to be two different time space else the space flow into each other, and secondly the time flow is not important even if it is true.

Yeah as far as I know about archetypes and collective unconscious psychic realm, this world is a world of perception and adolla world is simply concepts of all things. Like beauty is a concept and we all percieve it differently (our standards for beauty is different) but they'll are still falls under concept of beauty.

Tbh, that guy travelling back to earth through adolla world seems like anti feat to me because the way adolla world works, it shouldn't be possible.

Actually the way the adolla works, it should not be a granted a universal tier as it currently is. but to answer you, adolla is shown to physically exist and you can enter it with your physical forms also, so it is not an anti-feat, since it is not a world that you enter with your consciousness alone, but can also enter physically.

My dude read the scan it literally says Shinra traveled 250 years in the past what. “Shinra kicks into the past.”

He even went on a whole spiel in chapter 121 about how he only needed 1 second to see into the past and beat him

to see into the past? lies

. You understand the way Shinra sees people’s memories is by traveling into the past right?

no it was a one time thing where it was explicitly said here, you claim he was traveling to the past, but the author said "These images coming into my mind are tempe memories" so your claim that he traveled into the past, still does not work here since that is wrong to begin with.
and even if he did travel into the past that would still support my claim although that is wrong and I just needed to clarify that

I honestly have no idea what your contention with this is.

The fact that you claimed that shinra kicked tempe into the past and the author said what shinra was seeing is tempe's memories.

Because it’s showing the straight history of that man was distorted since to him reality is the same even though he existed pre and post cataclysm.

We were never told that "to him the reality is the same tho" nothing like that was mentioned. And besided the reality is no longer the same.

The same goes for literally everyone who survived the first cataclysm. Not a single soul mentions how reality was altered because to them it’s still the same as it was from the past. Even though we know that’s not true.

Yeah…in the world of Adolla. That doesn’t mean the pre-cataclysm past is shared in the same space-time in Adolla as it is in the real world.

the fact that they have the same past, means it is spatio-temprally connected

Yeah the moon that you are referring to wouldn’t be in the reflection in the water what. It wouldn’t “exist” in the reflection yes that is correct. When you say “this is thought given form while it exists at the same time it does not.” That literally means the very thoughts exists and doesn’t at the same time. You know because it’s imagination itself.

It even straight up absorbs the thoughts of people too. So yeah it very much is on those boarders between existing and non existing.

no it does not border on that, you can create a thread to make adolla non-existent later on tho and lets see how it goes. i really do not see how absorbing thoughts which will be NPI, granting non existence

No it says “it does not exist while at the same time it does.” By definition that’s non-existent physiology even by our own standards.

“While we can see it exists right here, at the same time it does not.”

That says the Adolla they’re looking at doesn’t exist and at the same time does. Stop trying to skew the words around.

yes and it means the adolla you are seeing here is not the real one

Are you arguing with a ghost right now what are talking about? Adolla by definition is the world of imagination. You don’t like that argue with the manga not me.

The world pre-cataclysm was not something “imagined” into by Adolla. It was just the actual way the world was before. If anything the world post cataclysm was the world that was directly imagined by humanity because Adolla changes things based on human perception. So reality being changed from 3D to 2D was because that’s what humans envisioned the world to be and thus that’s how the world was altered.

The world they saw was the world pre-cataclysm which is when reality wasn’t altered by Adolla’s imagination. That reality that Adolla carries the very history of. Not “just Tokyo” but humanities whole history of despair.

You actually just….talked about something completely irrelevant to the point I made what.

maybe you should check the person I am replying to first, that was to deceived and not you.

No I’m claiming that Adolla is a separate space-time from the real world. Them sharing the same past doesn’t dispute that notion because Adolla embodies the very past itself, not because it’s sharing the same space-time as the two worlds are completely disconnected from one another.

again the scan that they are disconnected

The fact that the infernal preacher or the other talking animals have no recollection of reality before the alteration shows a fundamental shift in the time for all the people and animals in reality. Even Sumire was shown reminiscing about the pre-cataclysm past when in Adolla first and foremost.

hmmn ever heard of retro-continuity? they have a 100 chapters in-between and again irrelevant to my point.

You did not “prove” it wrong since you did not address my argument lmao. Please next time address my argument before simply claiming someone is wrong.

neither did you address or even understand my argument

Shinra experienced different time flow while he was in Adolla. He even straight up says he lost time. That proves different time flows between Adolla and the real world. You don’t like that you can argue with the manga not me.

im saying months have passed and I dont remember anything again does not mean different timeflow, he was literally possessed. that aside, this is really irrelevant to my claims

The talking infernal literally has no distinction between the world pre-cataclysm and post-cataclysm.

uhhhm this is another lie, he never said anything about the reality of pre-cataclysm world in fact we were not shown, again retro-continuity, chapter 121 to 216

The fact that he doesn’t supports the notion that the very past of humanity was altered. My claim is that Adolla is a separate space-time from the real world. It does not “share” a space-time with the real world. It simply “has” the time and history of humanity in its own world as it embodies its very concept.

you mean a man that says everyone is dead and my properties are gone and just that, we can get from that he does not support that the past of humanity was altered?? oh boy

Adolla sharing the same past doesn’t equate to sharing the same space-time though as people have already pointed out.

FAQ

Having the same past=/= sharing the same space-time especially when Adolla straight up embodies the very history of mankind itself. In fact Adolla being conceptual history in nature is a fundamental distinction from regular 4D time.

No offense and what would you know about 4D time? this is the first i am hearing of time that can only ever be 1D being 4D.
also all these is true and really I am not contending it, but that does not still disprove my point

You’re trying to say Adolla carrying the very concept and idea of the time of humanity pre-cataclysm is the same as just regular time-flow in the universe when there’s literally a conceptual distinction between them.

NO, I AM SAYING SHINRA SAID "This is the world of the past" after traveling into the past, sumire then stamped it statement.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Since there are a lot of strawmanning here let me clarify
1. Adolla and earth are of different dimensions? yes
2. They are separate Dimensions? yes
3. Adolla contains the history of mankind despair? yes
I am not arguing against all of this, they are true
what I am saying is that they are not spatio-temporally separate, that is all.
Like the whole showing me that they are of different dimensions is weird, yes obviously they are which is why there is even an argument of whether they are spatio-temporally separate or not. and according to the standards they are not.
All I am arguing is spatio-temporal seperate, which no one has not addressed, deceive got my point but said something wrong. what you need to show is that the world shinra traveled to in the past is not earth from 250 years ago but another world entirely.
Since people are mixing this tier 2 stuff up let me help clarify
Two universes A and B are spatio-temporally separate if there are no points in A and B time and space that are in both.
Or alternatively if there are spaces or time in A and B that are in both, they would still qualify if you can show that they became separate for large interval time, i.e. infinite time.
Also two different dimensions needs to have something separating them, it may be a veil or a void or something similar.
If there is nothing separating them then they will be a single dimension to begin with, but know that them being a different dimension does not mean they are spatio-temporally separate especially if there are points in A and B that are in both.

 

[Cyberblader90]

sorry to ask here, is there a fire force discussion page on the wiki

 

[PrinceofPein]

sorry to ask here, is there a fire force discussion page on the wiki

Yes there is

 

[Maitreya12]

Yeah that was my final post on the matter in regards to 2C scaling because I did not see Pain even try to address the Adolla embodying histories concept argument in his last response. Pain can say whatever he wants imma just wait for staff input but before I’m just gonna clear up some other stuff he said that was just…super goofy to say

@Pain_to12 stop calling me a liar and actually read the manga.

I can’t believe you would cite the chapter and then repeatedly call me a liar for saying the literal exact same thing the manga does.

Let me make it clear for you….the way Shinra sees into people’s memories in the first place is by traveling into the past….Ok? You got that? No more confusion on this “seeing Preachers’ memories vs looking into the past” business because it’s literally the same thing here.

Please actually read the chapter in its full before calling someone a liar for presenting 100% accurate information on the matter.

Here’s the scan citing Adolla is 100% disconnected from the real world Pain. I’ve provided it before but you keep asking me again to provide it so here it is once more.

 

[Dalesean027]

I remain unconvinced tbh, this debate is going no where the same way it went in the last thread so I'll say again I disagree FRA

 

[Zencha9]

yeah gonna disagree with this

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I think I’ll just go ahead and count the votes

 

[Tarang123]

Disagree FRA