Fire Force 2-C removal (cont. thread)

[Vasco]

The point is that Adolla is a realm that only exists in imagination and not real, in that case it can no longer be granted a physical tier

Correct me if I'm wrong, don't really know anything on fire force but from what i've seen Adolla is a metaphysical realm which is the collective unconscious, if metaphysical realms can get higher tiers why can't the Adolla?

 

[Maitreya12]

I will just address the scans you are misconstruing instead

What does it mean to give something form? let me do some english class i guess
To bring something to form means to take an idea or a concept and turn it into a physical or tangible object or reality.
To give form to something means to create a physical or tangible shape, structure, or representation of an idea or concept. It involves taking something that exists as a mental image or abstract idea and turning it into something that can be seen, touched, or experienced in the physical world.

Right. This would be “the existing” part of Adolla. You act as if I haven’t already pointed this out and made it clear

It’s ironic that you talk about “teaching English” when your literacy of my arguments have been piss poor throughout this entire conversation.

You can find this two meaning by using a simple phrase dictionary, so yes it means physically existing.

Eye eye is physically existing in reality. Yes. Never once did I dispute the notion.

The phrase "this too is thought given form" suggests that everything that exists in the world is the manifestation of an idea or a thought and Adolla brings it to life. In other words, the things that they see, hear, touch, taste, and smell in the adolla, are the result of someone or something having a thought or an idea and then adolla bringing it into existence.
Adolla is a reflection of the thoughts, ideas, beliefs, and intentions of those who brought them into being.

Yeah everything that exists in the physical world has a manifestation from thought.

Now the other part of that
The statement "While we can see it exists right here at the same time it does not" suggests a paradoxical or contradictory situation. It may refer to something that appears to exist in a physical or tangible form, but in reality, it may not truly exist in the way that we understand existence.
Although we can observe that something exists in a particular location (i.e., "right here"), at the same time it may also seem to not exist or be absent in some sense, such as referring to an object that is visible but intangible or difficult to grasp. to put it simply a mirage.
Now join the two explanations together

Nope to bolded. We know that the usage of the term “existing” here is in reference to physical existence as you laid out in your section regarding “thought being given form” segment. The fact that he is talking about the physical existence of the eye of Adolla means that he in turn is referring to pure non existence in terms of Adolla’s being. Not as “intangible” or “a mirage” as you claim, but as pure physical vs non physical existence due to his statement regarding thought being given actual form. So that alone discredits your other interpretations. But to further hammer in the point home, the reason Sho is talking about Adolla also “not existing” at the same time as the Adolla in front of them is because in order to go into the Adolla plane they had to enter the world of perception as it is described.

What is perception? Pure human ideation as well as pure imagination. This isn’t thought given form since there isn’t a form given to just the world of perception in Adolla. Hence the follow up statement “while it exists right here at the same time it does not” because there’s a whole world of perception within Adolla.

this is just a diagram and then we have thought as the connection, what you said "composed of pure thought itself" is an inflated language

A diagram visually meant to illustrate what Adolla is? Which is simply pure thoughts and human ideation as is consistently said in the series? This isn’t “inflated language” either as we are directly see Adolla absorbing the thought bubbles of humanity. So no the visual representation is quite accurate for Adolla in fact.

Define hallucination
oh nevermind, I will

So whats the difference?
you said their experience happened in their mind but not physically but joker said its real

The same way you would not describe Amaterasu as simply “a hallucination” when she was literally possessing Shinra from the Adolla world while Shinra’s body remained in the real world? The same way Amaterasu is not a hallucination, neither is the Adolla plane.

Amaterasu is a real person influencing Shinra. She was actually possessing Shinra’s body from the Adolla plane. But she wasn’t just “an illusion” because she was actually performing the action despite her not being physically present anywhere in reality.

I am saying it exists elsewhere also nor that it is not the real one.

Your words are directly contradicted by Shinra who states that the eyeball “is Adolla” directly. The thing that “exists elsewhere” is the world of perception and ideas within that eyeball. Which is the nonexistent aspect of Adolla and hence why Shinra likens entering the world of perception as “being impossible.”

What fundamental aspect of existence does adolla lack? Let me know

And the best part about all of this is that I just realized this argument doesn’t even matter.

Because you’re claiming people are “physically transported” to Adolla while my stance is that only their minds are entering Adolla as is consistently demonstrated in the series.

And as you pointed out in your earlier posts, Adolla having the consciousness and souls of humanity within it doesn’t stop it from carrying matter. Which makes the whole nonexistent physiology argument entirely pointless because regardless of Adolla having it or not the argument doesn’t change. Nonexistent physiology simply further debunks your notion of them being “physically transported” into Adolla.

 

[Dalesean027]

@Dalesean027 first the reason for the downgrade thread was the upgrade thread and this is just the continuation of the downgrade thread after the tier 2 revisions were done, and just because you and some FF fans do not agree with this does not mean it is not valid

This literal has nothing to do with "what some FF fans do not agree with"

This is literally plank69 saying its tier 2

 

[Deceived3596]

Planck69 = Fire Force mega fan in disguise because no one who is unbiased could possibly disagree with the arbiter of logic Prince(ss)ofPein(12).

 

[Deceived3596]

I'm tired of typing bibles already :Crydo:

This statement is based on the idea that entities can be "real" on a physical level, but "unreal" on an ontological level. This distinction between physical and ontological reality is an important one in certain philosophical traditions. Physical reality refers to the world of measurable, tangible objects and properties, while ontological reality concerns the nature of existence itself. In this context, it is possible for physical objects to have properties that are not grounded in physical reality. For example, a visual illusion may appear to be a physical object, but it is not actually there in the same way that a solid, tangible object is. In this sense, the illusory object is "real" in a physical sense, but "unreal" on an ontological level, since its existence is based on perception rather than material reality.

You didn’t have to re-explain my claim in different words when we both understand what my position already is, it’s just needlessly extending the length of your already long post.

Stop doing this bruh.

your statement also suggests that the existence of physical entities within a given "dimension" does not necessarily imply that the dimension itself physically exists. This point relies on a particular understanding of what a "dimension" is. In certain scientific contexts, a dimension can be understood as a measurable physical property, such as length, width, or time. However, in other contexts, a dimension may refer to a theoretical construct, such as a mathematical space or a conceptual framework used to describe the nature of reality. In these cases, the relationship between physical entities and the dimension itself may be more complex and abstract than in a strictly physical sense

The context of Adolla is that of a world of the “perceptions and thoughts” of the unconscious collective, being described as a “dream reality” which contains all human idealization, including concepts such as “mathematics”, “laws” and “truth”. It’s purely a metaphysical realm, it isn’t something which physically exists in the sense of being constructed of matter like our universe, it’s entirely constructed of thought, idealization and perceptions. Appealing to the scientific understanding of what “reality” or “dimension” is would be incorrect because we’re objectively talking about something metaphysical. We’d appeal to the metaphysical understanding of these concepts. And the metaphysical understanding agrees with me that there’s a “level of existence” within everything.

In summary, the argument presented in your argument is based on certain philosophical assumptions and depends on a particular understanding of reality and the nature of existence. It is important to consider the context in which the argument is being made and the meanings of key terms, such as "real," "unreal," and "dimension." if you will be so kind to define what you mean by these three terms based on what i said above

The assumptions I'm making are supported by the text and evidence, your claims on the other hand aren’t supported and necessarily require more assumptions to be true.

• “Real” = Physically existing in the sense of containing matter which grants physicality..
• “Unreal” = Having properties of non-existence, as in, the antithetical to "real", or the physical, on an ontological level.
• “Dimension” = Conceptual/Mathematical space (within context of Adolla), basically the metaphysical understanding of what a “reality”/”dimension” is.

but to say, If we use a strictly scientific approach to define reality, then the existence of measurable physical objects within a world would certainly suggest that the world is real. In this sense, the world is seen as an objective, measurable, and tangible phenomenon that can be studied and understood through empirical observation and scientific inquiry. In summary, whether the world is "real" depends on the philosophical framework being used to define reality. If we use a strictly empirical or scientific approach, then the existence of physical entities within a world suggests that the world is real. However, from other philosophical perspectives, the question of whether the world is "real" is more complex and may not have a straightforward answer. The wiki uses scientific approach so to say the least, Adolla is real if it contains physical objects

I don’t agree with using the scientific approach in this context as explained above.

The wiki doesn’t disallow the usage of the metaphysical understanding of these concepts when we’re dealing with a specifically metaphysical realm. Nothing about this is stated, you’re deadass just assuming that we do when we objectively don’t.

 

[Maitreya12]

Deceived really is putting himself through the depths of swampy hell that is Fire Force scaling to make better points then I could ever do FR.

This is how he’s gonna end up looking by the end of it though.

 

[Deceived3596]

Death the Kid > Black Star ong fr fr.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Look at that, my two favorite girls getting all cozy.
Anyway thanks for the replies, I will get to this in a few hours, RL and sleep comes first.
to make things easier and so the arguments are not over the place, I will list out the arguments later and itemize them by numbers so they are easier to follow.

 

[Arceus0x]

Deceived really is putting himself through the depths of swampy hell that is Fire Force scaling to make better points then I could ever do FR.

This is how he’s gonna end up looking by the end of it though.

nah bro he's gonna be looking like

 

[Maitreya12]

Should we tell them?

Pain….we got confirmation Adolla qualifies as a metaphysical realm from another knowledgeable staff member. I’m telling you dude, if people or staff had issues or thought this wasn’t legitimate for 2-C, the tier never would’ve come in the first place. Believe me I made sure to let them know that.

But the fact that I keep coming back to you again and again after checking with this blog with multiple other people after they proposed the 2-C tier in the first place….at least to me, as ya know your regular ass vs battle wiki user, that signifies to me that it’s more a you thing that has a problem with the tier rather than the evidence not being sufficient enough to qualify this as the valid interpretation it is.

 

[Arkenis]

just tryna get my Asura tier 2-C matches started

 

[Maitreya12]

just tryna get my Asura tier 2-C matches started

Wait till the ability addition blog goes through. Hax gods about to roll up.

 

[Lonkitt]

Given how Adolla's qualifications got examined and approved by a staff member knowledgeable with the verse, as well as having looked at the arguments above, then I think 2-C should qualify

 

[Maitreya12]

Ok so Low Multiversal Fire Force has been reaffirmed 3-4 times now….in this month alone.

So can we finally say this story has come to a close now?

 

[LordGinSama]

If anyone tries some tier 1 wank nonsense I'm hakai'ing hoes to the shadow realm.

 

[Delta333]

The point is that Adolla is a realm that only exists in imagination and not real, in that case it can no longer be granted a physical tier

World of thoughts, ideas and perceptions can still have a tier as long as its properties are no inferior to physical reality.

 

[Lonkitt]

Ok so Low Multiversal Fire Force has been reaffirmed 3-4 times now….in this month alone.

So can we finally say this story has come to a close now

Unless this thread has more marketability to milk, I'd say yeah, we can call it a day

 

[PrinceofPein]

Should we tell them?

Pain….we got confirmation Adolla qualifies as a metaphysical realm from another knowledgeable staff member. I’m telling you dude, if people or staff had issues or thought this wasn’t legitimate for 2-C, the tier never would’ve come in the first place. Believe me I made sure to let them know that.

But the fact that I keep coming back to you again and again after checking with this blog with multiple other people after they proposed the 2-C tier in the first place….at least to me, as ya know your regular ass vs battle wiki user, that signifies to me that it’s more a you thing that has a problem with the tier rather than the evidence not being sufficient enough to qualify this as the valid interpretation it is.

I will repeat what E12 told you, the blog is its own thread this is its own thread both are for different purposes.

Given how Adolla's qualifications got examined and approved by a staff member knowledgeable with the verse, as well as having looked at the arguments above, then I think 2-C should qualify

Well if you want to agree to the blog, you can do it on the blog thread. And what arguments above?
so far we have not even gotten to the arguments about tier 2, we are still in the non-existent shenanigans? so which arguments about tier 2 are you agreeing to?
If you want to evaluate this, read what you are agreeing to

World of thoughts, ideas and perceptions can still have a tier as long as its properties are no inferior to physical reality.

Yes, I already said that up above, except that is not what i am saying, I am the one here arguing for adolla having physical properties.

That said, I will reply to the arguments shortly

 

[PrinceofPein]

@Maitreya you do not have much to go on except head canons, so let me bring you back to the original argument
1. Shinra scenario and Burns&Joker scenario are two different scenarios, stop mixing them together, And I will ignore any post about shinra's possession henceforth, cause as clear as day shinra was hallucinating, Burns and Joker were not, they are two different scenarios.
2. Also stop trying to argue against Joker saying that they are not hallucinating and they were physically insde Adolla and that Adolla is real.
Cause I can assure you, no matter what you say it really holds no water above what Joker said. As you know Author speaks through Joker and not you.
Joker and Burns scenario
Were they Hallucinating? No
Were they physically moved into Adolla? Yes
Was Adolla stated to be real? Yes
Did he bring back a stone from his time inside Adolla? Yes

So all I can say is stop stonewalling these arguments by trying to shift the focus, the focus are those four points above. And saying any of those points are wrong will be headcanon.

---

Now below is my reply to deceived, do not join the two together, again two different things

You didn’t have to re-explain my claim in different words when we both understand what my position already is, it’s just needlessly extending the length of your already long post.
Stop doing this bruh.

Me expanding more on what you said then replying since I believe it will help my reply is not needlessly extending anything

The context of Adolla is that of a world of the “perceptions and thoughts” of the unconscious collective, being described as a “dream reality” which contains all human idealization, including concepts such as “mathematics”, “laws” and “truth”. It’s purely a metaphysical realm, it isn’t something which physically exists in the sense of being constructed of matter like our universe, it’s entirely constructed of thought, idealization and perceptions. Appealing to the scientific understanding of what “reality” or “dimension” is would be incorrect because we’re objectively talking about something metaphysical. We’d appeal to the metaphysical understanding of these concepts. And the metaphysical understanding agrees with me that there’s a “level of existence” within everything.
The assumptions I'm making are supported by the text and evidence, your claims on the other hand aren’t supported and necessarily require more assumptions to be true.

The assumptions you are making throws @Maitreya arguments out the window, have you thought about that?
Also in my post to you, I made no claims or assumption, so what do you mean by my assumptions, all I did was define and separate things out for you

• “Real” = Physically existing in the sense of containing matter which grants physicality..
• “Unreal” = Having properties of non-existence, as in, the antithetical to "real", or the physical, on an ontological level.
• “Dimension” = Conceptual/Mathematical space (within context of Adolla), basically the metaphysical understanding of what a “reality”/”dimension” is.

I don’t agree with using the scientific approach in this context as explained above.

The wiki doesn’t disallow the usage of the metaphysical understanding of these concepts when we’re dealing with a specifically metaphysical realm. Nothing about this is stated, you’re deadass just assuming that we do when we objectively don’t.

First I am not assuming, we use physics here when it comes to metaphysical realms except stated otherwise in the series that this is what this follows, but even after that we still balance it out by equating it to what it means in science since that is the only way we can tier it here, You said I should not explain your stuffs for you so lets talk about the philosophy you think Adolla uses, based on it, I think, it is Plato's theory of forms and also George berkely, and the part where humans just want to burn is not from any philosophy and just brilliant writing on nihilism.
Tell me the philosophy Adolla uses since you said we should not look at it scientifically but through philosophy

 

[Delta333]

Yes, I already said that up above, except that is not what i am saying, I am the one here arguing for adolla having physical properties.

That said, I will reply to the arguments shortly

Considering things like mathematics or universal concepts of hope and despair are literally aspects of physical reality yet they're parts of Adolla, I don't see how Adolla should be "less real" than physical reality, and that alligns with how Adolla is described as both existent and nonexistent at the same time rather than only nonexistent, which in turn, also fits with its description as "dream reality" too.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Considering things like mathematics or universal concepts of hope and despair are literally aspects of physical reality yet they're parts of Adolla, I don't see how Adolla should be "less real" than physical reality, and that alligns with how Adolla is described as both existent and nonexistent at the same time rather than only nonexistent, which in turn, also fits with its description as "dream reality" too.

Adolla was never decribed as existent and non-existent. So are you saying maths, hope and despair are physical realities? cause I can assure you, they are not physical concepts to begin with. the only thing that can be classified or rather influences physical reality is maths. Aside that
The statement is "while we can see it exists right here, at the same time it does not" while looking at the eye like adolla.

That is not non-existent in the slightest

ies s

please check the statement above and explain it

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I will repeat what E12 told you, the blog is its own thread this is its own thread both are for different purposes.

Please tell me you didn’t just invalidate staff opinion on this thread topic simply because it’s in another thread…

you’re clearly being disingenuous rn.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Please tell me you didn’t just invalidate staff opinion on this thread topic simply because it’s in another thread…

I just said the way things are, cause @DontTalkDT was also of the opinion that FF do not qualify for tier 2 in another thread, did you see me count his agreement here? or say anyone here is invalidating his opinion and notably he is more knowledgeable than anyone else on the subject.
If a staff wants to disagree with this thread they will say it here and the reason they disagree, what Planck agreed with is the blog and what is in it. This thread is different
And funny enough we have not started the tier 2 argument here, somehow I am getting dragged away from that to whether adolla physically exists or not.

you’re clearly being disingenuous rn.

If the truth sounds like that to you then I do not know what to say

 

[Arkenis]

Joker and Burns scenario
Were they Hallucinating? No
Were they physically moved into Adolla? Yes
Was Adolla stated to be real? Yes
Did he bring back a stone from his time inside Adolla? Yes

Haven't been keeping up with this thread a lot, so what does arguing it physically exist prove or disprove for its tier?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Haven't been keeping up with this thread a lot, so what does arguing it physically exist prove or disprove for its tier?

Actually that does not affect my tier 2 argument, that is just me trying to make sure a clear misinformation does not go through, for my argument.
If adolla does not exist, you cannot grant it a tier 2 rating, since in 0 and 1, non-existence is 0, so 0+1 will still be 1. and the reason for their tier is currently that adolla exists as its own universe and merges with the world. So I can just let the non existent shenaningan go through and still get what I want, but nah I cannot do that.
So hence we were dragged from my initial argument that of separate space-time and we have not gotten there
cause whether it was with his mind or body, adolla was shown to be in the past of the world, also shown to share a physical border with the world.
But those are for later. one argument at a time

 

[Maitreya12]

@Maitreya you do not have much to go on except head canons, so let me bring you back to the original argument

The irony of this statement by you is not lost on me.

1. Shinra scenario and Burns&Joker scenario are two different scenarios, stop mixing them together, And I will ignore any post about shinra's possession henceforth, cause as clear as day shinra was hallucinating, Burns and Joker were not, they are two different scenarios.

Ah so you’re just gonna ignore any evidence that counters your proposed claim. Gotcha I understand now, when in doubt just ignore the opposing evidence

They’re not two different scenarios. Just as Shinra wasn’t hallucinating when he was being possessed by Amaterasu or when he experienced an Adolla link with Sho, Joker and Burns weren’t hallucinating when they experienced their Adolla link. That doesn’t mean they were physically transported to Adolla however just like Shinra was never physically transported into Adolla during the multiple times he had links to the world.

2. Also stop trying to argue against Joker saying that they are not hallucinating and they were physically insde Adolla and that Adolla is real.
Cause I can assure you, no matter what you say it really holds no water above what Joker said. As you know Author speaks through Joker and not you.
Joker and Burns scenario

Literally no matter what you say you cannot argue with objective facts presented in the manga. And the objective fact of the matter is that we witness exactly how Adolla links are done with people and it’s through their minds, they are not depicted to be physically transported into Adolla.

Were they Hallucinating? No

Never claimed they were. Another bad strawman on your part.

Were they physically moved into Adolla? Yes

No.

I have already outlined how the order of events showcase how they didn’t get physically transported there, especially going by the anime’s interpretation of events which you so graciously linked and I outlined.

Was Adolla stated to be real? Yes

Yeah…just like Amaterasu is real too. That doesn’t mean she’s “real” in the physical world and not residing in Adolla.

Did he bring back a stone from his time inside Adolla? Yes

I never disputed any such claim? That doesn’t thereby mean they were physically transported to Adolla at all especially since we clearly see plain as day that you do not get physically transported into Adolla when receiving an Adolla link as was the case for Shinra multiple times now throughout the story.

So your notion gets thoroughly debunked with the sheer number of times we are witnessing Adolla links being performed and each and every time they are transported into Adolla through their minds. I literally just gave you 3 examples just now and it stands to reason Joker and Burns’ case follows suit with this pattern, especially with the anime’s depiction of events as well.

 

[Hasty12345]

Might be a bit late to this point, but if spiritual planes of existence can’t count as low 2-C structures, or… any physical structure then does that mean verses like Bleach that have feats in those planes of existence just… don’t matter? Is destroying the afterlife in DB just an irrelevant feat?

 

[Arkenis]

I never disputed any such claim? That doesn’t thereby mean they were physically transported to Adolla at all especially since we clearly see plain as day that you do not get physically transported into Adolla when receiving an Adolla link as was the case for Shinra multiple times now throughout the story.

I have to ask, since u are arguing that adolla links are them being transported via their minds, where does Joker get the rock? It would make sense he got sent physically no?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Might be a bit late to this point, but if spiritual planes of existence can’t count as low 2-C structures, or… any physical structure then does that mean verses like Bleach that have feats in those planes of existence just… don’t matter? Is destroying the afterlife in DB just an irrelevant feat?

spiritual planes =/= non-existent structures.
A very big difference

That said, I am about to reply to maitreya

 

[Maitreya12]

I just said the way things are, cause @DontTalkDT was also of the opinion that FF do not qualify for tier 2 in another thread, did you see me count his agreement here? or say anyone here is invalidating his opinion and notably he is more knowledgeable than anyone else on the subject.

I have not seen such a statement by DT in regards to such a topic. The only ever statement I recall him making surrounding Fire Force scaling was when you asked him a couple questions and he responded with a couple of idk’s and cited how Fire Force May count as an exception as well. Never really gave a concrete answer which was even pointed out by other staff as well.

If a staff wants to disagree with this thread they will say it here and the reason they disagree, what Planck agreed with is the blog and what is in it. This thread is different

You understand your arguments were in the cosmology blog thread too right? Pain…if Planck had an issue with the scaling or the tier and believed it didn’t meet any criteria standard for the tier….I think he would’ve let me know.

I fully made it clear to anyone of the staff members who saw it evaluated the blog that if they had any such grievances with the blog’s standards, they were more than welcome to let it be known. I don’t mind. But the fact that I keep having this thing checked and the fact that I keep coming back to you over and over with the same answer of “they are in agreement of the 2-C tier” at least tells me that it in fact does meet enough necessary criteria to qualify for the standard.

Hell even just now another staff member who hasn’t engaged or participated in the previous threads that got the 2-C tier accepted just stated after witnessing both the arguments presented in this thread here that they also agree with the proposed 2-C tier.

I swear to you dude….if there was a genuine problem or issue between staff that this didn’t meet the new standards….I believe it would’ve come up by now. But the biggest “contention” some staff had in regards to the scaling was a neutral vote and a statement that went something along the lines of:

“Well while I don’t personally fully agree with the scaling, the conclusions being drawn aren’t unreasonable/I can understand where the logic arrives at.”

That’s it. That’s the biggest contention so far staff have issued to me in regards to this tier. Not even an outright disagreement, just a neutral stance due to them not personally fully agreeing totally to the scaling being drawn. Which is fine right that’s perfectly fine to take that stance….But it’s not a disagreement towards the proposed tier nor is it an agreement to your downgrade stance either is what I’m getting at.

And if that’s the biggest contention staff have issued to me so far while the rest have been vocal agreements, I really don’t see this as a contentious issue.

 

[Halkum145]

Don't underestimate anyone who just joined mori pfp

 

[PrinceofPein]

They’re not two different scenarios. Just as Shinra wasn’t hallucinating when he was being possessed by Amaterasu or when he experienced an Adolla link with Sho, Joker and Burns weren’t hallucinating when they experienced their Adolla link. That doesn’t mean they were physically transported to Adolla however just like Shinra was never physically transported into Adolla during the multiple times he had links to the world.

Except shinra was actually hallucinating so whats your point here?

Literally no matter what you say you cannot argue with objective facts presented in the manga. And the objective fact of the matter is that we witness exactly how Adolla links are done with people and it’s through their minds, they are not depicted to be physically transported into Adolla.

Burns and Joker were said to be transferred physically, joker literally said "we were transferred into another dimension" he did not say our minds were transferred

Never claimed they were. Another bad strawman on your part.

Then english is a big part of your problem here, you said they did not experience it physically but inside their mind.
Hallucinating are events that happens in yur mind but feels real.
SO yes you did say they were hallucinating.

No.

Argue with Joker

I have already outlined how the order of events showcase how they didn’t get physically transported there, especially going by the anime’s interpretation of events which you so graciously linked and I outlined.

the fact that you think that this video proves your point is baffling, so an anime effect taking place to show him saying he wants to know the truth in the past means it is his mind, when we got clarification 10 secs later that it was not his mind?

Yeah…just like Amaterasu is real too. That doesn’t mean she’s “real” in the physical world and not residing in Adolla.

again stop stonewalling man, different scenarios

I never disputed any such claim?

Yes you did, here is what you said

The thing in Joker’s hand being real from Adolla doesn’t prove they were physically entering Adolla at all since the pebble was “blipped” into Joker’s hand from Adolla. Joker wasn’t blipped back into reality with the pebble already in his hand like you are saying.

you said the pebble blipped into joker's hand after they left adolla, so yes you did dispute him bringing it back from adolla here, until I again showed that he brought it back.

That doesn’t thereby mean they were physically transported to Adolla at all especially since we clearly see plain as day that you do not get physically transported into Adolla when receiving an Adolla link as was the case for Shinra multiple times now throughout the story.

Again stop the stonewalling, you are avoiding my arguments, I really do not care about the other things that happened, it is Joker and Burns we are talking about.

So your notion gets thoroughly debunked with the sheer number of times we are witnessing Adolla links being performed and each and every time they are transported into Adolla through their minds. I literally just gave you 3 examples just now and it stands to reason Joker and Burns’ case follows suit with this pattern, especially with the anime’s depiction of events as well.

No it does not follow case as again, argue with joker saying they were not hallucinating but rather actually moved into the dimension.
You will need to disprove Joker's statement here, bringing other scenarios just means you can enter adolla physically and also a being from adolla can possess you and you can also hallucinate. Different scenarios here

I have not seen such a statement by DT in regards to such a topic. The only ever statement I recall him making surrounding Fire Force scaling was when you asked him a couple questions and he responded with a couple of idk’s and cited how Fire Force May count as an exception as well. Never really gave a concrete answer which was even pointed out by other staff as well.

I did not ask him any question, I simply linked the thread, the previous one, and listed some qualifications and said FF fails at both but pointed out that FF is a weird case so IDK. That does not change the fact that based on what he saw he think FF do not qualify

You understand your arguments were in the cosmology blog thread too right? Pain…if Planck had an issue with the scaling or the tier and believed it didn’t meet any criteria standard for the tier….I think he would’ve let me know.

I fully made it clear to anyone of the staff members who saw it evaluated the blog that if they had any such grievances with the blog’s standards, they were more than welcome to let it be known. I don’t mind. But the fact that I keep having this thing checked and the fact that I keep coming back to you over and over with the same answer of “they are in agreement of the 2-C tier” at least tells me that it in fact does meet enough necessary criteria to qualify for the standard.

Hell even just now another staff member who hasn’t engaged or participated in the previous threads that got the 2-C tier accepted just stated after witnessing both the arguments presented in this thread here that they also agree with the proposed 2-C tier.

I swear to you dude….if there was a genuine problem or issue between staff that this didn’t meet the new standards….I believe it would’ve come up by now. But the biggest “contention” some staff had in regards to the scaling was a neutral vote and a statement that went something along the lines of:

“Well while I don’t personally fully agree with the scaling, the conclusions being drawn aren’t unreasonable/I can understand where the logic arrives at.”

That’s it. That’s the biggest contention so far staff have issued to me in regards to this tier. Not even an outright disagreement, just a neutral stance due to them not personally fully agreeing totally to the scaling being drawn. Which is fine right that’s perfectly fine to take that stance….But it’s not a disagreement towards the proposed tier nor is it an agreement to your downgrade stance either is what I’m getting at.

And if that’s the biggest contention staff have issued to me so far while the rest have been vocal agreements, I really don’t see this as a contentious issue.

Again the blogs are the blog this thread is this thread, I have not seen any evaluation on this thread as we have not even gotten to the tier 2 arguents yet.
The blog is based on something on their profile and Planc finds it fine, good for him, but if he wants to disagree with this downgrade he needs to come here to do it and not another thread.

 

[Maitreya12]

I have to ask, since u are arguing that adolla links are them being transported via their minds, where does Joker get the rock? It would make sense he got sent physically no?

The rock still could’ve came from Adolla as we can clearly see Adolla can manifest itself in the real world. And it is capable of making the thought within Adolla give form. But the reason it doesn’t make sense that Joker or Burns got physically transported to Adolla is because we see multiple times how Adolla links are performed throughout the series and each time it’s only ever the mental linkage between a person while the body remains in the real world.

Example 1) Shinra gets possessed by Amaterasu inside Adolla while his body remains outside fighting in the real world.

Example 2) Shinra’s mind views the past within Adolla however his body remains in the real world and was taken over by a doppelgänger for 3 months

Example 3) Sho does an Adolla link connection with Shinra while they remain in the real physical world at the same time.

You see how in literally every single one of these instances we can outright see or get direct confirmation that only Shinra’s mind was in the Adolla plane while his body was remaining in the physical world? No physical transportation into Adolla is depicted here so it stands to reason the same applies to Joker and Burns, especially goin by how the anime showcases the particular scene in question as there we clearly see the transition of Joker being in the real world towards entering his mind, viewing his memories and finally him seeing Adolla.

 

[PrinceofPein]

From what I have seen, you will not let this go and will just keep going in circles till I get tired, Let me call staffs that I know are neutral and do not really know FF to come and evaluate whether joker and burns moved physically or not based on the arguments here.

 

[Arkenis]

The rock still could’ve came from Adolla as we can clearly see Adolla can manifest itself in the real world. And it is capable of making the thought within Adolla give form. But the reason it doesn’t make sense that Joker or Burns got physically transported to Adolla is because we see multiple times how Adolla links are performed throughout the series and each time it’s only ever the mental linkage between a person while the body remains in the real world.

Example 1) Shinra gets possessed by Amaterasu inside Adolla while his body remains outside fighting in the real world.

Example 2) Shinra’s mind views the past within Adolla however his body remains in the real world and was taken over by a doppelgänger for 3 months

Example 3) Sho does an Adolla link connection with Shinra while they remain in the real physical world at the same time.

You see how in literally every single one of these instances we can outright see or get direct confirmation that only Shinra’s mind was in the Adolla plane while his body was remaining in the physical world? No physical transportation into Adolla is depicted here so it stands to reason the same applies to Joker and Burns, especially goin by how the anime showcases the particular scene in question as there we clearly see the transition of Joker being in the real world towards entering his mind, viewing his memories and finally him seeing Adolla.

So then what im getting from this is that when Joker got sent to adolla mentally, he pulled something from that world mentally and it became physical in the real world then?

 

[PrinceofPein]

So then what im getting from this is that when Joker got sent to adolla mentally, he pulled something from that world mentally and it became physical in the real world then?

That is what he is claiming, but then he forgot or rather ignoring that Joker said they were not hallucinating but they were moved into another dimension

 

[Arkenis]

This whole thing can literally be summed up in that Adolla's metaphysical realm, what is shown isn't exactly physical but while there you can pull things out from it and bring it into the real world making it real. What is the confusion bruh

 

[Arkenis]

That is what he is claiming, but then he forgot or rather ignoring that Joker said they were not hallucinating but they were moved into another dimension

Yeah and he's telling u that in other cases of this happening its always presented as a mental transportation, so why assume any different now? And before you say its because of the rock:

This whole thing can literally be summed up in that Adolla's metaphysical realm, what is shown isn't exactly physical but while there you can pull things out from it and bring it into the real world making it real. What is the confusion bruh

 

[PrinceofPein]

Yeah and he's telling u that in other cases of this happening its always presented as a mental transportation, so why assume any different now? And before you say its because of the rock:

the rock was a supporting point, it is more of Joker's statement about it, the rock was the supporting feat that they were in it physically like Joker claimed.

 

[Arkenis]

the rock was a supporting point, it is more of Joker's statement about it, the rock was the supporting feat that they were in it physically like Joker claimed.

Um okay where does he say "we were physically transported there"? Cause if your only argument is that they were transported there so its physical then that doesn't work.