Fire Force 2-C removal (cont. thread)

[Firestorm808]

Is the Adolla plane some sort of metaphysical realm?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Um okay where does he say "we were physically transported there"? Cause if your only argument is that they were transported there so its physical then that doesn't work.

Burns asked "were we hallucinating"
Joker replied "That was no hallucination, we were transferred to another dimension"
I am not giving english lessons on why this means they were physically moved there

Is the Adolla plane some sort of metaphysical realm?

Yes something like that.

 

[PowerToScale]

the rock was a supporting point, it is more of Joker's statement about it, the rock was the supporting feat that they were in it physically like Joker claimed.

This statement comes from a time before they even understood what Adolla completely was, so while in that moment it felt as if they were physical present they simply just didn't understand what happened in the moment at that time as they later find out Adolla is this conceptual metaphysical realm.

 

[Arkenis]

Burns asked "were we hallucinating"
Joker replied "That was no hallucination, we were transferred to another dimension"
I am not giving english lessons on why this means they were physically moved there

Wow. Your entire argument rest on you only assuming "transferred" is meant physical, when @Maitreya has shown evidence each time one is transferred to Adolla it is always mental and not physical. You really don't have an argument besides this

 

[Firestorm808]

Yes something like that.

So Shinra's mind time traveled from the Adolla plane to Earth?

 

[PowerToScale]

So Shinra's mind time traveled from the Adolla plane to Earth?

You can find answers regarding Adolla in the cosmology blog in this thread. Goes into Adolla and the universe and how they connect

https://vsbattles.com/threads/fire-force-cosmology-blog-acceptance-thread.149626/

 

[PrinceofPein]

This statement comes from a time before they even understood what Adolla completely was, so while in that moment it felt as if they were physical present they simply just didn't understand what happened in the moment at that time as they later find out Adolla is this conceptual metaphysical realm.

Oh actually afterwards, years later when they understood adolla, when they spoke about it, Joker referred to it as "brought back from my time in Adolla"

Wow. Your entire argument rest on you only assuming "transferred" is meant physical, when @Maitreya has shown evidence each time one is transferred to Adolla it is always mental and not physical. You really don't have an argument besides this

I am not assuming, that is what it means.
Maitreya point is that they are hallucinating and Joker said they were not, then the stone was the supporting point.
So again read the arguments properly.
or rather stop and let maitreya reply or the staffs that do not know about FF that I called, let them check the arguments

So Shinra's mind time traveled from the Adolla plane to Earth?

That would be the case here, but I should have mentioned that this is the current contention, it starts here in this post

https://vsbattles.com/threads/fire-force-2-c-removal-cont-thread.149414/post-5497516

The contention is that Joker and Burns were said to go into adolla, Maitreya said it was just their minds, but I am claiming it is also physically.
So if you can evaluate that please

 

[Arkenis]

I am not assuming, that is what it means.
Maitreya point is that they are hallucinating and Joker said they were not, then the stone was the supporting point.
So again read the arguments properly.
or rather stop and let maitreya reply or the staffs that do not know about FF that I called, let them check the arguments

No, what you're assuming is how they were transported there, Maitreya has shown you that when people get transported there it's mental and not physical.

Joker's statement means nothing if he isn't saying it's physical which he didn't and you know that. That's why your "supporting point" is the rock, but as I said, and as Maitreya pointed out,

So then what im getting from this is that when Joker got sent to adolla mentally, he pulled something from that world mentally and it became physical in the real world then?

The rock still could’ve came from Adolla as we can clearly see Adolla can manifest itself in the real world. And it is capable of making the thought within Adolla give form. But the reason it doesn’t make sense that Joker or Burns got physically transported to Adolla is because we see multiple times how Adolla links are performed throughout the series and each time it’s only ever the mental linkage between a person while the body remains in the real world.

Example 1) Shinra gets possessed by Amaterasu inside Adolla while his body remains outside fighting in the real world.

Example 2) Shinra’s mind views the past within Adolla however his body remains in the real world and was taken over by a doppelgänger for 3 months

Example 3) Sho does an Adolla link connection with Shinra while they remain in the real physical world at the same time.

You see how in literally every single one of these instances we can outright see or get direct confirmation that only Shinra’s mind was in the Adolla plane while his body was remaining in the physical world? No physical transportation into Adolla is depicted here so it stands to reason the same applies to Joker and Burns, especially goin by how the anime showcases the particular scene in question as there we clearly see the transition of Joker being in the real world towards entering his mind, viewing his memories and finally him seeing Adolla.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Joker's statement means nothing if he isn't saying it's physical which he didn't and you know that. That's why your "supporting point" is the rock, but as I said, and as Maitreya pointed out,

read to context once again I am done arguing this

Burns asked "were we hallucinating"
Joker replied "That was no hallucination, we were transferred to another dimension"
I am not giving english lessons on why this means they were physically moved there

If it was their minds, that would be hallucination, he said it is not
if it is not hallucination, then what it is?
Then he gave a reply, again Context is important.
And did you see me dispute the fact that you can also hallucinate Adolla? No i am not disputing that, I am saying Joker and Burns scenario was not hallucination like we were told

 

[Maitreya12]

Except shinra was actually hallucinating so whats your point here?

He is not. A “hallucination” or “an illusion” implies a trick of the mind. That what’s going on with them isn’t actually happening. But there is no trick to Amaterasu possessing Shinra. She is actually possessing him from the Adolla plane. There is no “trick” there for Shinra nor is him being possessed “not actually happening” and thus this doesn’t qualify as Amaterasu “being an illusion.”

Is everyone in Bleach now an illusion too since they’re all nothing but consciousness and souls

Burns and Joker were said to be transferred physically, joker literally said "we were transferred into another dimension" he did not say our minds were transferred

He did not say he was physically transferred into the dimension either. That’s you adding words that weren’t there before.

If you want to determine whether Adolla physically or mentally transports people we can simply look to all the other mired of instances of Adolla links in the series, where it is consistently shown what’s being transferred into Adolla is the mind and not the physical body.

Then english is a big part of your problem here, you said they did not experience it physically but inside their mind.
Hallucinating are events that happens in yur mind but feels real.
SO yes you did say they were hallucinating.

A hallucination is a disruption in sensory perceptions which causes you to experiences things that exist only inside their minds. Amaterasu doesn’t “only exist” within Shinra’s mind. She’s a soul that exists in the Adolla plane that is affecting Shinra’s mind from that plane by possessing him.

There is no “sensory changes” or “disruptions” in Shinra’s mind because what he’s experiencing isn’t brought on by his sensory perceptions, but by a linkage to a separate plane of reality that can possess his mind. Thus not meeting the criteria for a “hallucination.”

So please….understand the usage of the terms you use before accusing others of not knowing them.

Argue with Joker

Don’t need to. Nothing that he says contradicts what I said.

You however clearly have to argue with the manga since you were the one who was believing Shinra was physically inside Adolla when that couldn’t have been further form the truth.

the fact that you think that this video proves your point is baffling, so an anime effect taking place to show him saying he wants to know the truth in the past means it is his mind, when we got clarification 10 secs later that it was not his mind?

The fact that you tried to misrepresent my argument so bad is what’s baffling here

An “anime effect” what are you talking about? We literally see it transitioning into Joker’s mind through his memories. And we once again witness a direct transition into Joker’s head through those same memories too.

again stop stonewalling man, different scenarios

Simply saying “different scenarios” isn’t an argument. You haven’t even explained how these scenarios are even different which is the bare minimum requirement for an argument such as this. So the only one stonewalling here is you in your constant need to dismiss evidence while providing no elaboration as to even why it should be dismissed in the first place.

Yes you did, here is what you said

you said the pebble blipped into joker's hand after they left adolla, so yes you did dispute him bringing it back from adolla here, until I again showed that he brought it back.

Wtf???

Yeah I said the pebble blipped into his hand when they were leaving Adolla….because Joker grabbed it. I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about here because I never once disputed Joker bringing back the pebble. I just said Joker never physically left the area hence the pebble was “blipped” into his hand when he exited Adolla.

Again stop the stonewalling, you are avoiding my arguments, I really do not care about the other things that happened, it is Joker and Burns we are talking about.

The fact that you think this is “stonewalling” just goes to show you badly you have even attempted to engage with the argument presented before you.

You are citing that Adolla physically transports people and I am citing how Adolla mentally transport people. To illustrate this I cite multiple examples demonstrating my claim to show how this can extend to Joker and Burns as well, you however haven’t even showcased or attempted to even explain why Joker and Burns would be experiencing a fundamentally different interaction with Adolla than all the other instances I point out.

No it does not follow case as again, argue with joker saying they were not hallucinating but rather actually moved into the dimension.
You will need to disprove Joker's statement here, bringing other scenarios just means you can enter adolla physically and also a being from adolla can possess you and you can also hallucinate. Different scenarios here

I never argued they were hallucinating though so that’s a bad strawman on your part. I don’t need to “disprove” Joker’s statement here because nothing here is being contradicted to my position.

Your position however directly does in fact contradict the many many instances we see Adolla links being performed where we explicitly see them not being physically transported though.

I did not ask him any question, I simply linked the thread, the previous one, and listed some qualifications and said FF fails at both but pointed out that FF is a weird case so IDK. That does not change the fact that based on what he saw he think FF do not qualify

Based on what he saw he didn’t give a concrete answer. He even cited how Fire Force may qualify as an exception. Saying one thing to you in a private question you asked him in a thread not even related to Fire Force scaling is not him giving a definite or concrete answer based on the evidence presented.

Again the blogs are the blog this thread is this thread, I have not seen any evaluation on this thread as we have not even gotten to the tier 2 arguents yet.
The blog is based on something on their profile and Planc finds it fine, good for him, but if he wants to disagree with this downgrade he needs to come here to do it and not another thread.

The issue is I’ve specifically brought up your contentions to the cosmology blog to him and it was cited that yes it had been blatant enough to qualify. This is just becoming ad nauseam at this point because these exact same points are contrapuntal brought up to staff through either your threads or mine and each time it’s getting approved. Even now other staff openly disagreed with your thread right here.

This thread by the way was made literally days after your previous thread which had been evaluated and disagreed upon already as well. You making up a follow up thread immediately right after holds no purpose especially when we got another directly clarification that the series has met the necessary criteria to qualify for the 2-C tier.

 

[Maitreya12]

So then what im getting from this is that when Joker got sent to adolla mentally, he pulled something from that world mentally and it became physical in the real world then?

Yes exactly.

The Adolla plane is just pure thought and perception right, however as noted this thought is able to be given form in the real world which is exactly what happened here.

 

[PowerToScale]

Oh actually afterwards, years later when they understood adolla, when they spoke about it, Joker referred to it as "brought back from my time in Adolla"

Yes actually, as Habana herself (A top scientist and a individual studying inferno's and Adolla) didn't truly understand what Adolla was until she saw the it affecting the universe and who the fire force crew relied on along side Viktor to help understand what everything was.

Just because he experienced once in the past doesn't automatically an expert later in life.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I am not reading or replying to that above, I have called in people to evaluate the Burns and Joker scenario, whatever they say we will move on from there to the next one

This thread by the way was made literally days after your previous thread which had been evaluated and disagreed upon already as well. You making up a follow up thread immediately right after holds no purpose especially when we got another directly clarification that the series has met the necessary criteria to qualify for the 2-C tier.

The first thread was before the tier 2 was updated, hence this is why this is a continuation of that thread since now it has been updated and based on the standards, which surprisingly i was the one who created the thread and argued for it, it does not meet the criteria.
So why don't you wait for this to be done then you can call the same staffs again to re-evaluate this

 

[Arkenis]

If it was their minds, that would be hallucination, he said it is not

Bruh you can't be fr rn, when someone says "was that a hallucination" its meant as "was that fake?" as in was what they saw not actually there, but it was there, it was an actual place they saw, but seeing something and being somewhere does not make it now physical as you are arguing.


Please drop this point I can't believe ur dragging something this obvious for no other reason than you wanna be right.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Bruh you can't be fr rn, when someone says "was that a hallucination" its meant as "was that fake?" as in was what they saw not actually there, but it was there, it was an actual place they saw, but seeing something and being somewhere does not make it now physical as you are arguing.

Nice to see you also do not know the meaning of hallucination and actually just also want to be right.
Literally all of you(as in yourself, not everyone, context here also since you will probably miss it again), why do I even bother explaining it
also if you are so crazy about context, then you should have checked the context of this too

The Adolla plane is just pure thought and perception right, however as noted this thought is able to be given form in the real world which is exactly what happened here.

 

[Maitreya12]

I am not reading or replying to that above, I have called in people to evaluate the Burns and Joker scenario, whatever they say we will move on from there to the next one

The first thread was before the tier 2 was updated, hence this is why this is a continuation of that thread since now it has been updated and based on the standards, which surprisingly i was the one who created the thread and argued for it, it does not meet the criteria.
So why don't you wait for this to be done then you can call the same staffs again to re-evaluate this

I have been getting staff to evaluate this though.

That’s the thing dude. I keep doing what you ask. I keep going to different staff members and asking them to evaluate the blog and specifically asking them if it meets the necessary criteria for the new standards of 2-C.

And each and every time I’m getting a yes. What do you think that says Pain? What indication do you think that gives?

 

[Maitreya12]

Nice to see you also do not know the meaning of hallucination and actually just also want to be right.
Literally all of you(as in yourself, not everyone, context here also since you will probably miss it again), why do I even bother explaining it
also if you are so crazy about context, then you should have checked the context of this too

Bruh you literally think spirits and ghosts possessing a body qualifies as “a hallucination.”

I really don’t think you have any right trying to educate people in the meaning of that word.

 

[Arkenis]

Nice to see you also do not know the meaning of hallucination and actually just also want to be right.
Literally all of you, why do I even bother explaining it
also if you are so crazy about context, then you should have checked the context of this too

Sadly you're the one who looks wrong here. And by context the use of the word hallucination is as follows:

Since Adolla was actually present it is not a hallucination.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I have been getting staff to evaluate this though.

That’s the thing dude. I keep doing what you ask. I keep going to different staff members and asking them to evaluate the blog and specifically asking them if it meets the necessary criteria for the new standards of 2-C.

And each and every time I’m getting a yes. What do you think that says Pain? What indication do you think that gives?

Also say those staffs name, so I can tag them here, I know of planc.
Also do you know that you are not disagreeing that shinra went into the past but rather he went into adolla's past and not the world?
Also there is a part in your blog I corrected, the "xyz" part, correct it, should I help draft something up in the blog thread for that.
Do not worry it will still convene your meaning and not mine

Bruh you literally think spirits and ghosts possessing a body qualifies as “a hallucination.”

I really don’t think you have any right trying to educate people in the meaning of that word.

Again, there were times when adolla has to do with hallucination and not possession, and mention where I said possession qualifies for hallucination, it is he was possessed hence he was hallucinating.
not that possession = hallucination

Sadly you're the one who looks wrong here. And by context the use of the word hallucination is as follows:

Since Adolla was actually present it is not a hallucination.

hallucination

1. the experience of seeing, hearing, feeling, or smelling something that does…

dictionary.cambridge.org

Hallucinations: Definition, Causes, Treatment & Types

A hallucination is a false perception of objects or events involving your senses: sight, sound, smell, touch and taste. They have several possible causes.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Definition of HALLUCINATION

a sensory perception (such as a visual image or a sound) that occurs in the absence of an actual external stimulus and usually arises from neurological disturbance (such as that associated with delirium tremens, schizophrenia, Parkinson's disease, or narcolepsy) or in… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

There are so many definition and the baseline is that your mind trick you into seeing things not there.
Then Joker said that was not what happened, and said "we were transferred into another dimension"

But hey since I am tired of this, I will just wait for the evaluation

 

[Hasty12345]

From what I have seen, you will not let this go and will just keep going in circles till I get tired, Let me call staffs that I know are neutral and do not really know FF to come and evaluate whether joker and burns moved physically or not based on the arguments here.

Bro what?? Why would you call staff who have little to no knowledge on the series?

Call the staff who have read the manga like that’s just common sense

 

[Halkum145]

not there

You said. adolla was actually there and so it's a mind transfer, not a hallucination

 

[PrinceofPein]

Bro what?? Why would you call staff who have little to no knowledge on the series?

Call the staff who have read the manga like that’s just common sense

Staffs will little knowledge cannot be swayed and do not have any predetermined bias/opinion on the series.

You said. adolla was actually there and so it's a mind transfer, not a hallucination

huh?

 

[Hasty12345]

Staffs will little knowledge cannot be swayed and do not have any predetermined bias on the series.

You mean like knowing the proper context? Damn it’s almost like that’s why we have knowledgeable members and supporters

 

[Maitreya12]

And did you ask those staffs if they read the new Space-time page or the new FAQ?

YES​

Yes I have Pain. I have specifically asked them if these meet the new criteria for 2-C and they have responded with yes. I told them if they had any issue whatsoever or if it needed to be downgraded it’s fine. They could’ve let me know. But they haven’t which can only assert to me that this does indeed qualify for the new standards.

Also say those staffs name, so I can tag them here, I know of planc.

I literally told you their names earlier? KLO5 and Planc. It’s to the point where I honestly feel like I’m being annoying and pestering them constantly with this.

Also do you know that you are not disagreeing that shinra went into the past but rather he went into adolla's past and not the world?
Also there is a part in your blog I corrected, the "xyz" part, correct it, should I help draft something up in the blog thread for that.
Do not worry it will still convene your meaning and not mine

….ok? I was gonna rework the blog a bit anyway because I needed to add the more supporting evidence I found and make more clarifications on the words being used.

Again, there were times when adolla has to do with hallucination and not possession, and mention where I said possession qualifies for hallucination, it is he was possessed hence he was hallucinating.
not that possession = hallucination

The bolded right here you are saying possession qualifies for hallucination

You’re saying because he was being possessed he was hallucinating which actively makes no sense because a hallucination isn’t “real” but Amaterasu really does exist and her possession of Shinra is very real so there is no way this qualifies as a “hallucination.”

hallucination

1. the experience of seeing, hearing, feeling, or smelling something that does…

dictionary.cambridge.org

Hallucinations: Definition, Causes, Treatment & Types

A hallucination is a false perception of objects or events involving your senses: sight, sound, smell, touch and taste. They have several possible causes.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Definition of HALLUCINATION

a sensory perception (such as a visual image or a sound) that occurs in the absence of an actual external stimulus and usually arises from neurological disturbance (such as that associated with delirium tremens, schizophrenia, Parkinson's disease, or narcolepsy) or in… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

There are so many definition and the baseline is that your mind trick you into seeing things not there.
Then Joker said that was not what happened, and said "we were transferred into another dimension"

Seeing things that don’t actually exist or only exist in your mind. Adolla doesn’t “only exist” in Joker’s mind, it is an actual higher dimensional plane. This doesn’t contradict my words because I’m not claiming what Joker is experiencing is “only a hallucination.”

But hey since I am tired of this, I will just wait for the evaluation

Just as a general statement if staff would like me to clarify anything I’m more than welcome to do so.

 

[PrinceofPein]

You mean like knowing the proper context? Damn it’s almost like that’s why we have knowledgeable members and supporters

what you are saying is that we should not count votes of staffs who do not have knowledge on a series? sorry but thats not what the wiki does, as long as they can form an opinion of their own from arguments, their agreement or disagreement is as valid as someone who knows the series. And from what I know all staffs who know the series are following this.

YES​

Yes I have Pain. I have specifically asked them if these meet the new criteria for 2-C and they have responded with yes. I told them if they had any issue whatsoever or if it needed to be downgraded it’s fine. They could’ve let me know. But they haven’t which can only assert to me that this does indeed qualify for the new standards.

edited the post

I literally told you their names earlier? KLO5 and Planc. It’s to the point where I honestly feel like I’m being annoying and pestering them constantly with this.

you make it sound a lot which is why I am surprised as to who else, also Planc will not mind evaluating this when it is done.

….ok? I was gonna rework the blog a bit anyway because I needed to add the more supporting evidence I found and make more clarifications on the words being used.

okay

The bolded right here you are saying possession qualifies for hallucination

Oh shit it is like you always quote me wrongly
Listen to this "He is possessed by an evil spirit so he has been hallucinating"
Does this mean that possession means hallucination? No it means he started hallucinating due to getting possessed

You’re saying because he was being possessed he was hallucinating which actively makes no sense because a hallucination isn’t “real” but Amaterasu really does exist and her possession of Shinra is very real so there is no way this qualifies as a “hallucination.”

Amaterasu possessed him and then he started seeing people telling him to burn them. That is the hallucination part, those people do not want him to burn them but his mind are seeing things

 

[Hasty12345]

what you are saying is that we should not count votes of staffs who do not have knowledge on a series? sorry but thats not what the wiki does, as long as they can form an opinion of their own from arguments, their agreement or disagreement is as valid as someone who knows the series. And from what I know all staffs who know the series are following this.

Very obviously not what I was saying bro…

 

[PrinceofPein]

Can this be closed, I am not saying I am agreeing to tier 2 FF, just that it is a versus debating site and it is supposed to be fun and this thread is not fun anymore and I have RL issues to which this thread just adds to the stress. I am sure there will be other heroes (@Arc7Kuroi ) after me that will do this if I do not eventually down the line.

 

[Deceived3596]

I have Arc strapped to my radiator in the basement, he ain't making any threads soon

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I wake up this morning and I’m seeing some bullshit. How the **** has Shinra been hallucinating when his Adolla links also allow others to experience the same things he does. How is that objectively referred to as an hallucinations when an hallucination applies to one individual and not multiple others at the same time.

 

[Lonkitt]

Well if you want to agree to the blog, you can do it on the blog thread. And what arguments above?
so far we have not even gotten to the arguments about tier 2, we are still in the non-existent shenanigans? so which arguments about tier 2 are you agreeing to?
If you want to evaluate this, read what you are agreeing to

I already gave my answer, I don’t know why you’re trying to complicate this. I’m giving my input as a mod and saying I disagree with the removal of 2-C

 

[Maitreya12]

I already gave my answer, I don’t know why you’re trying to complicate this. I’m giving my input as a mod and saying I disagree with the removal of 2-C

Pain has asked for this thread to be closed now anyway so no more arguments need to be had.

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah, I’ll be closing it. This has gone on much longer than it should have had to