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Questioning the legitimacy of High 6-A Devil May Cry

@WeeklyBattles

I already know the arguments for Kamiya being untrustworthy and all, but what I was arguing was independent of that and It wasn't universal DMC.What I was arguing against were people believing that Kamiya wasn't saying Mundus created a universe and people who try to twist the tweet to mean something else.Regardless if you accept the tweets or not, Kamiya was clearly implying that Mundus created a universe, that's what I was getting at.
 
If you don't mind, I honestly do have some speculation regarding Kamiya's tweets that could be helpful here. I just want to make something abundantly clear first. I do not expect you or anyone else to agree with me on this, and it's not being included as a part of the CRT I've mentioned a few times. With that out of the way... I do honestly still think that Kamiya's tweet about Universal Mundus can still be considered reliable. Here's why.


1: The statement is not nearly as vague as it is usually made out to be. In the question Kamiya answered, the person asked "During DMC1, Mundus performs a feat where he seemingly creates stars and constellations, is it accurate?" to which he responded "Universe". One of the reasons often given as to why it is not a reliable answer is that it is a vague response, however saying this implies that they were being evasive, dodging the question, or giving an answer that didn't really answer the question at all. If you take a proper look at the answer he gives, it doesn't match this description. It's certainly got strange wording, but it was still a perfectly fine answer in the circumstances that does confirm what the OP wanted to know.

2: Why did he have strange wording for it in the first place though? I have two major reasons; he is known to write extremely informally, and he's clearly not very proficient with English. First, his informality. You can see this on just about any English tweet he makes. He almost always either answers questions with just sentence fragments, or just very simple sentences. It's clear that he never puts in more words then he needs to get his point across. And really, he's on Twitter. The platform where you are supposed to write as few words as possible. It's clear that "Universe" in context while answering the question just meant "He made a universe" or something along those lines. As for the lack of proficiency with English... just, look at his Twitter. The few English tweets he's made have terrible spelling and grammar, and it's gotten to the point that he has literally made a rule against anyone who speaks English trying to contact him. Clearly he isn't too good at writing it.

3: Here's a point that almost nobody brings up: Why did Kamiya clarify his earlier statements later? When he was asked again about Mundus creating a universe, he directed them to his previous tweet where he answered it. Why would he have even bothered answering, let alone with a reply that further clarifies his previous statements, if they weren't being serious in the first place?

4: Here's another point that's rarely brought up. This tweet is extraordinarily out of character for him when he's just trolling. You can see whenever he's asked about how powerful DMC characters are that he'll almost always say something along the lines of "Ask them" or "Ask ur Mom". Trolls may be annoying, but they are usually pretty consistent. For him to answer a question purely to trick us into thinking that he had relented is extremely unlikely. It's just not in his character to do that.

That of course, brings up the elephant in the room. Why would he have answered every other question about Mundus' strength sarcastically and then also said that he doesn't like people who make Vs Matches only to answer a question about Mundus' strength genuinely once? Well, the answer is actually far more intuitive then you would think.

5: The question wasn't explicitly about Mundus' strength. Here at the wiki, we consider feats of creation to equal their potential for destruction. However, this is not the common view of how it works. Hell, I only got on here a few months ago, and when I first did and discovered that "creating a dimension = destroying a dimension" I was genuinely really confused. So were a few other people I've talked about this wiki with before. That's the difference between this question and the rest. The rest of the questions are all about how powerful they are in comparison to other characters, or how much power they really have, or something along those lines. Being asked what exactly Mundus created at the end of the game would not have made him think that this is another guy looking to make Versus Matches. It would have just come off as a regular question that he wouldn't have known the implications of.


Again, I want to restate this. I am not suggesting this should be made into a CRT on it's own to try and get 3-A Mundus reinstated. I still don't expect you to agree with me. This is simply my two-cents on the issue as to why I still personally believe 3-A Mundus to be correct, even if the wiki as a whole would almost certainly disagree. Still, I am curious what any of you think.
 
DarkGrath said:
If you don't mind, I honestly do have some speculation regarding Kamiya's tweets that could be helpful here. I just want to make something abundantly clear first. I do not expect you or anyone else to agree with me on this, and it's not being included as a part of the CRT I've mentioned a few times. With that out of the way... I do honestly still think that Kamiya's tweet about Universal Mundus can still be considered reliable. Here's why.


1: The statement is not nearly as vague as it is usually made out to be. In the question Kamiya answered, the person asked "During DMC1, Mundus performs a feat where he seemingly creates stars and constellations, is it accurate?" to which he responded "Universe". One of the reasons often given as to why it is not a reliable answer is that it is a vague response, however saying this implies that they were being evasive, dodging the question, or giving an answer that didn't really answer the question at all. If you take a proper look at the answer he gives, it doesn't match this description. It's certainly got strange wording, but it was still a perfectly fine answer in the circumstances that does confirm what the OP wanted to know.

2: Why did he have strange wording for it in the first place though? I have two major reasons; he is known to write extremely informally, and he's clearly not very proficient with English. First, his informality. You can see this on just about any English tweet he makes. He almost always either answers questions with just sentence fragments, or just very simple sentences. It's clear that he never puts in more words then he needs to get his point across. And really, he's on Twitter. The platform where you are supposed to write as few words as possible. It's clear that "Universe" in context while answering the question just meant "He made a universe" or something along those lines. As for the lack of proficiency with English... just, look at his Twitter. The few English tweets he's made have terrible spelling and grammar, and it's gotten to the point that he has literally made a rule against anyone who speaks English trying to contact him. Clearly he isn't too good at writing it.

3: Here's a point that almost nobody brings up: Why did Kamiya clarify his earlier statements later? When he was asked again about Mundus creating a universe, he directed them to his previous tweet where he answered it. Why would he have even bothered answering, let alone with a reply that further clarifies his previous statements, if they weren't being serious in the first place?

4: Here's another point that's rarely brought up. This tweet is extraordinarily out of character for him when he's just trolling. You can see whenever he's asked about how powerful DMC characters are that he'll almost always say something along the lines of "Ask them" or "Ask ur Mom". Trolls may be annoying, but they are usually pretty consistent. For him to answer a question purely to trick us into thinking that he had relented is extremely unlikely. It's just not in his character to do that.

That of course, brings up the elephant in the room. Why would he have answered every other question about Mundus' strength sarcastically and then also said that he doesn't like people who make Vs Matches only to answer a question about Mundus' strength genuinely once? Well, the answer is actually far more intuitive then you would think.

5: The question wasn't explicitly about Mundus' strength. Here at the wiki, we consider feats of creation to equal their potential for destruction. However, this is not the common view of how it works. Hell, I only got on here a few months ago, and when I first did and discovered that "creating a dimension = destroying a dimension" I was genuinely really confused. So were a few other people I've talked about this wiki with before. That's the difference between this question and the rest. The rest of the questions are all about how powerful they are in comparison to other characters, or how much power they really have, or something along those lines. Being asked what exactly Mundus created at the end of the game would not have made him think that this is another guy looking to make Versus Matches. It would have just come off as a regular question that he wouldn't have known the implications of.


Again, I want to restate this. I am not suggesting this should be made into a CRT on it's own to try and get 3-A Mundus reinstated. I still don't expect you to agree with me. This is simply my two-cents on the issue as to why I still personally believe 3-A Mundus to be correct, even if the wiki as a whole would almost certainly disagree. Still, I am curious what any of you think.
Click to expand...
I agree with you, but I know that we are the minority here that thinks that Mundus is 3-A
 
@Og I'm not sure how I am supposed to see Mundus being called 'World' as any sort of proof. Yes, his name is again, not even universe but World.

@Die I mean, we can take the context out of a lot of actions to change the perspective on them. His answer is straight forward, so ignoring all else he's obviously saying what Mundus is doing. But due to Kamiya's track record, it personally doesn't feel like that at all. It feels like giving the shortest answer he can that seems to align with what's shown, because he honestly couldn't be bothered to care.

I doubt anyone else agrees with this, but that's just how I see it. As for the bad English explanation... I may be remembering wrong, but wasn't the post originally Japanese and just translated, or it was posted two times each to English and Japanese?
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
@Og
I'm not sure how I am supposed to see Mundus being called 'World' as any sort of proof. Yes, his name is again, not even universe but World.
Click to expand...
So it's willful ignorance at this point. Got it
 
So you refuse to explain yourself how Mundus was a deliberate move towards showing Mundus has Universe level power or connects at all towards the "other" evidence. Understood.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
So you refuse to explain yourself how Mundus was a deliberate move towards showing Mundus has Universe level power or connects at all towards the "other" evidence. Understood.
Click to expand...
You literally ignored my whole post and focused on literally the least important statement I made.

First of all it was creation because Mundus teleported in the same game and that looks nothing like teleportation, not to mention it wasn't the Demon Realm because the Demon Realm doesn't have a sky with stars, and it wasn't the Human Realm because when they literally teleported in the Humand Realm and fought in the Human Realm, Mundus himself said "we are weaker here and we can't go full power" so that eliminates teleportation. Second of all it wasn't illusion because the fight phisically is impossible to happen in that space if that was an illusion, so that eliminates illusion. So all we're left with is creation. Coupled with the fact that his name can mean "Void", "World", "Universe" and the tweet. When you put them all together you get that feat is legitimate.
 
@LSirLancelotDuLacl

There can be many explanations for why Kamiya provide a short answer hell the simplest could be is the character limit twitter had at the time and that their was no need to say "Mundus created a universe".Kamiya trolls about alot of things but a genuine question asking what happened during a scene in one of his games there is no reason to assume he's trolling.He had a tweet with clear rules regarding questions pinned and if someone didn't follow the rules they got trolled and blocked, that's what people refer to when they mean he's a troll.
 
Are we going to do this again?

The "universe" that Mundus created looks nothing like a real universe. When they are teleported to the dimension itself, Dante is still standing as if he is standing on solid ground. The stars in the background literally keep circling each other. When they are about to fly away, Dante literally bursts out of solid ground (you can even see a slight airburst), before dashing away in mid-air. Then, they are suddenly flying through a cloudy area, and then the dimension changes into a volcano out of nowhere...?

It's far easier to say that was simply an illusion he was controlling than it is to say he made a pocket space filled with thousands of stars. Afterall the initial scene makes it quite implied they are still standing on the ground of the chapel.
 
@Eli I already saw the thread, I was just exposing my opinion.

@Die I mean, you can give all those reasons. I am sure I could give some more why I really don't think that's the case. It can easily turn into a back and forth that isn't clearly settled as a simple answer doesn't make the answer less vague. And I don't mean vague about the answer itself, but the intent of the speaker when giving it. So to put it shortly, I am just not personally convinced but I won't deny it's a straight forward answer.

@Og I simply asked how would the name Mundus relate at all as 'evidence', what I think about Kamiya's tweet was left rather clear in another post and my initial one. As for Mundus teleporting... I mean, sure? We also have Trish not being taken along, apparently, Dante jumping from nothing and going from a starry universe to a... sky with clouds and thunder. Leaving graphic limitations of the era aside, it doesn't make much sense so can't be much else.
 
Kepekley23

Read the discussion, nobody was talking about the feat itself.

And you can literally see Dante's feet hanging as he is talking with Mundus as if he is supended.And the thing about "Dante literally busts out of solid ground" is non existent.The thing about clouds is easy to answer Mundus literally can create weather and the volcano was stated to be created by Mundus in the guidebook.

Edit:And the stars in the background circling each other are obviously a graphical limitation, the cg scene right before proves what they were supposed to be presented as.
 
Kepekley23 said:
snip
Click to expand...
Well first of all no it's not teleportation. We see teleportation and that's not it. He's not standing he's floating. The camera circles so what? Probably they were lazy with the animation as well. He flies up ok? Moving around in an whole pocket realm of Mundus's making, again so what?

So now we go from teleportation to illusion. Let's go back to your previous point

"When they are about to fly away, Dante literally bursts out of solid ground (you can even see a slight airburst), before dashing away in mid-air. Then, they are suddenly flying through a cloudy area, and then the dimension changes into a volcano out of nowhere...?"

Really curious how can they do this in a small chapel and after they are done the chapel doesn't have a scratch on it from the fight.

We don't see how exactly Dante gets back. Probably somehow when the pocket reality collapses.
 
Wait...is the universal statement for the game? Cause if it is I'm pretty sure that's more than enough proof than just assuming that mundus opened a portal cause it looks like creation or teleportation but we have a literal statement that is better than assumptions
 
LSirLancelotDuLaci


Wasn't talking about Kep specifically, this isn't the first time illusion was brought up.What I was getting at is since that the WoG isn't accepted, the implication was still a creation feat, but because the WoG isn't accepted people try to write the feat off as an Illusion, genjutsu or a trick of some sort which holds no water if you look at what the game shows.
 
If the game looks like creation and the creator says it's creation we go with that. Idk where this special treatment is coming from all of a sudden ƒÿÉ
 
AstralKing7 said:
If the game looks like creation and the creator says it's creation we go with that. Idk where this special treatment is coming from all of a sudden ƒÿÉ
Click to expand...
To oversimplify why this is the only situation where WoG is not usually accepted, it's because Kamiya is infamous on Twitter as a troll and he said it on Twitter, so the assumption is that he was being sarcastic or trying to trick us. I've explained why I personally don't believe he was being disingenuous.
 
@Elizhaa

All of those examples aren't clarifiction on what happened in a cutscene of the game unlike the universe tweets and those questions are all obvious VS bait, power creep or something he has never thought about or he doesn't know which if you read the rules and are familar with how Kamiya tweets, he hates things like that and consider them "stupid questions which will get stupid answers" or something along those lines.Those tweets are not comparable to the universal tweets what so ever.
 
Matthew also point examples where he trolled from questions: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/956376#Is_Hideki_Kamiya_Reliable.3F

I already talked about those examples in my post. I explained why Kamiya would not have perceived the question that 3-A Mundus is based on as a question about power, while all of the other questions he gave as examples were obvious power related questions. Unless you have a rebuttal with evidence, simply stating the point again doesn't really work as evidence.
 
Yeah, we've been getting a bit off topic. My apologies, I'm at least partly to blame for that. Let's focus on the actual debate.
 
What about Dante and vergil cutting down the demon tree that shit exited the atmosphere and was in/or close to outer space thats way bigger then just mountain level since the roots needs to expend in order to grow hell most of the missions is base on cutting shit ton of roots.
 
I can not believe we're still arguing if Kamiya was being legit with his answer. I mean, are you kidding me? The reliance on WoG especially when it can be done on a whim is ridiculous. Stop bothering the author with stupid questions--wasting their time--and figure it out yourself.

Also, really? It's a 1-word response. No explanation, no actual answer, just a 1-word response. He could have literally said "12-dimensional structure" and you'd all suck it in. Don't you get it? Don't put all your weight on the WoG.

@Ashen - "Cutting down" the tree literally would not result in anything above 8-A/7-C no matter how it is done. All they'd have to do is cut it at its base and boom, the tree dies.
 
@CinCameron20

Even without the WoG, the feat is still easily creation but WoG just cements it.Also, even though his answers are short and vague the people who ask the questions were very transparent with what they were asking and Kamiya did technically provide an explanation.Someone asked "In the Battle of DMC1 's final boss, the dimensions made of Mundus are the same size as the whole universe of this world? Or is it a small dimension included in the castle?" and Kamiya's answer was "The Former" then that explains the size of the universe and that shows he believes it was a universe and that Mundus made it.Regardless if you agree with the use of WoG,hell I don't even care for WoG, it's dishonest to say that there was no actual answer or explanation.
 
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