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- #441
Yeah, it's from the manga
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Pokemon General Discussion Thread Gen VII: Lusamine is greatest villain
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
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There's supposed to be a direct this week I think. A Nintendo one.
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Therian Forms=Swords of Justice, Btw. So that's an upgrade.
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I think the bigger upgrade that needs to happen now is speed. This solidify's MFTL+ for Perfect Zygarde and likely other legendaries.Peter1129 said:
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But his other forms do. Perfect Zygarde isnt the only form thats on the level of an Ultra Beast.Peter1129 said:
And even then, Magearna should still scale no matter how we slice it.
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I guess that makes sense. Also how many Zettatons does the Ultra Beasts, Tapus and the Light Trio scale to anyway? Cause the profiles for those Pokémon are really confusing.
Cause from what I'm getting at from the profiles the Ultra Beasts seem to scale to 50% Zygarde same with the Tapus. But the Light Trio's Profile also said they are comparable to the Aura Trio despite one shotting dozens of Ultra Beasts with one attack and stalemating the four Tapus who are on par with the Ultra Beasts.
Cause from what I'm getting at from the profiles the Ultra Beasts seem to scale to 50% Zygarde same with the Tapus. But the Light Trio's Profile also said they are comparable to the Aura Trio despite one shotting dozens of Ultra Beasts with one attack and stalemating the four Tapus who are on par with the Ultra Beasts.
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Why dont we just make a list of feats. And go these pokemon (list) scale to this. So we dont gotta play a game of profile hot potato to maybe find the feat that everything scales from after like 40 profiles.
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In spite of that, one still has to play hot potato in order to find the source of the scaling.
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Well most of the 5-B legendaries they scale from Deoxys' 420 Zettaton feat. For most of the at least 5-B legendaries they are either casually 703 Zettaton scaling from Xerneas or 840 Zettaton scaling from Mega Mewtwo being at least twice as strong as Base Mewtwo who is comparable to Deoxys. The 5-B+ Legendaries are just based on multipliers from the At least 5-B legendaries.
High 6-A legendaries seem to be unquantifiably into High 6-A via statements. 6-B legendaries scale from Lugia's Storm and Low 6-B+ are from the legendary birds backscaling from Lugia. Also many legendaries are still 6-B+ and need to be downgraded to Low 6-B+.
High 6-A legendaries seem to be unquantifiably into High 6-A via statements. 6-B legendaries scale from Lugia's Storm and Low 6-B+ are from the legendary birds backscaling from Lugia. Also many legendaries are still 6-B+ and need to be downgraded to Low 6-B+.
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Oh? Multipliers? Ya got sauce on that? I havent seen any multiplier statements before.
Although when you say Deoxys' feat, you mean from PMD? With the tree thing.
And hol up Lugia has a 6-b feat? I though it was scaling from the weather trio from the manga. Actually this kinda proves my point. A sandbox with the feats would be cool, unless there already is one.
Although when you say Deoxys' feat, you mean from PMD? With the tree thing.
And hol up Lugia has a 6-b feat? I though it was scaling from the weather trio from the manga. Actually this kinda proves my point. A sandbox with the feats would be cool, unless there already is one.
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Well for example Black Kyurem is basically Base Kyurem + Zekrom so he has the combined powers of the two of them. Which is basically a 2x multiplier.
No I'm talking about Grand Meteor Delta not the Tree of Life. That's Xerneas passive feat.
Yeah this is Lugia's 6-B feat.
No I'm talking about Grand Meteor Delta not the Tree of Life. That's Xerneas passive feat.
Yeah this is Lugia's 6-B feat.
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I dont think that's how that works but ok. It'd actually be closer to like .7x if we're taking that litterally.
Ok, ok.
Huh, I thought that was calced much lower but that seems ok, making storms tend to be around city much less a 40 day storm so that checks out.
Ok, ok.
Huh, I thought that was calced much lower but that seems ok, making storms tend to be around city much less a 40 day storm so that checks out.
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Well if you want a list this is what I have for the 5-Bs.
2.52 Yottaton: Complete Kyurem
1.68 Yottaton: Black/White Kyurem and Resolute Keldeo
840 Zettaton: Mega Mewtwo, Shiny Genesect, Tao Trio, Swords of Justice, Forces of Nature Therian Forme and Unbound Hoopa
703 Zettaton: Xerneas, Yveltal, 50% Zygarde, Mega Diancie and Magearna
420 Zettaton: Deoxys, Base Mewtwo, Mew, Mega Rayquaza and Genesect
210 Zettaton: Base Rayquaza
84 Zettaton: Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre
Unknown on the 5-B scale: Type: Null, Silvally, Ultra Beasts, Tapus, and Light Trio
2.52 Yottaton: Complete Kyurem
1.68 Yottaton: Black/White Kyurem and Resolute Keldeo
840 Zettaton: Mega Mewtwo, Shiny Genesect, Tao Trio, Swords of Justice, Forces of Nature Therian Forme and Unbound Hoopa
703 Zettaton: Xerneas, Yveltal, 50% Zygarde, Mega Diancie and Magearna
420 Zettaton: Deoxys, Base Mewtwo, Mew, Mega Rayquaza and Genesect
210 Zettaton: Base Rayquaza
84 Zettaton: Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre
Unknown on the 5-B scale: Type: Null, Silvally, Ultra Beasts, Tapus, and Light Trio
Bobsican
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In what world is Mega Ray on par with Deoxys when he can casually beat him with little effort.Peter1129 said:
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But he's way stronger than Deoxys, I mean, he can one shot it. And in evrything they fought in Mega Ray usually beats it soundly.
If anything og ray is on par with it albeit a tad weaker.
If anything og ray is on par with it albeit a tad weaker.
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My dude, normal Rayquaza has been shown to be able to fight on par with Deoxys. Even as recent as the SM anime. And he can overpower deoxys without it, DA when used though knocks it on its ass while hitting its most durable spot.
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Ehh I guess if you what to I could bring this up in the legendary Pokémon revision CRT I plan to make next month once the fight with Ultra Necrozma and Perfect Zygarde happens. Also time to move on to the new thread. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3450449
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No. Mega Ray vs Deoxys retcons Base Ray vs Deoxys. Deoxys is on par with Mega Ray.Chariot190 said:
And no, Deoxys can't be one shotted by Mega Ray. It literally came out unscathed when Mega Ray destroyed the very meteor it was piloting it with its strongest attack and then battled against it.
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You're wrong pal. Mega Ray Vs. Deoxys was heavily in favour of Mega Ray so it's not like it was qual. In fact Deoxys never actually hurt Ray. It got one hit on it in the manga and it was a surprise attack. And in generations Mega Ray stomped it, even busted through a psychoo boost and it's defense form.
As recently as SM Ultra Squad shit, Deoxys fought normal Rayquaza, so no retcon there if it's still happening. And shown to be consistently the average, opposed to Mega Ray casually beating Deoxys with little to no effort. If you wanna pull the retcon card, your retcon got retconned. EP1067.
Inverse square law, Deoxys didnt take the full brunt of the attack, the meteor did.
The battle, as shown in generation and the manga, had deoxys get overwhelmed quickly and if not for its Regenerationn, would of been one shot multiple times over. And in the manga, DA knocked it on its ass, despite it hitting its crystal, which has been shown in every single media to be far more durable and resilient then the rest of it by far, yeah I know it is its weak point, but said weak point is also its most durable point, by such a hilarious degree that vaporization of its body cant even scratch the thing. But not only did he knock it out, but he completely voided its chest, the crystal no longer actually exists, it's gone. Meanwhile a focused shot from Mewtwo exerting all its power couldnt even do that, it merely shot through it, not send it to the shadow realm. To the same exact Deoxys.
As recently as SM Ultra Squad shit, Deoxys fought normal Rayquaza, so no retcon there if it's still happening. And shown to be consistently the average, opposed to Mega Ray casually beating Deoxys with little to no effort. If you wanna pull the retcon card, your retcon got retconned. EP1067.
Inverse square law, Deoxys didnt take the full brunt of the attack, the meteor did.
The battle, as shown in generation and the manga, had deoxys get overwhelmed quickly and if not for its Regenerationn, would of been one shot multiple times over. And in the manga, DA knocked it on its ass, despite it hitting its crystal, which has been shown in every single media to be far more durable and resilient then the rest of it by far, yeah I know it is its weak point, but said weak point is also its most durable point, by such a hilarious degree that vaporization of its body cant even scratch the thing. But not only did he knock it out, but he completely voided its chest, the crystal no longer actually exists, it's gone. Meanwhile a focused shot from Mewtwo exerting all its power couldnt even do that, it merely shot through it, not send it to the shadow realm. To the same exact Deoxys.
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>You're wrong pal. Mega Ray Vs. Deoxys was heavily in favour of Mega Ray so it's not like it was qual. In fact Deoxys never actually hurt Ray. It got one hit on it in the manga and it was a surprise attack. And in generations Mega Ray stomped it, even busted through a psychoo boost and it's defense form.
It wasn't "heavily in favour" at all. Generations especially. Deoxys tanked a point-blank hyper beam and was unscathed. Just like how he was unscathed by Mega Ray's Dragon Ascent when it destroyed the meteor. Y'know, the one Deoxys was inside of? Again? And even when busting through its defense form, Deoxys was only knocked out. Is Mega Ray stronger? Of course. But Deoxys is in the same realm of power as Mega Ray no matter how you slice it.
>As recently as SM Ultra Squad shit, Deoxys fought normal Rayquaza, so no retcon there if it's still happening. And shown to be consistently the average, opposed to Mega Ray casually beating Deoxys with little to no effort. If you wanna pull the retcon card, your retcon got retconned. EP1067.
You know this fight basically happened off-screen right? The literal only thing we see on-screen is Base Rayquaza fire a hyper beam, which Deoxys very easily deflects. So this point is completely useless.
>Inverse square law, Deoxys didnt take the full brunt of the attack, the meteor did.
Which is debunked by the meteor being busted into pieces, which would have completely obliterated Deoxys if it couldnt tank the attack.
>The battle, as shown in generation and the manga, had deoxys get overwhelmed quickly and if not for its Regenerationn, would of been one shot multiple times over.
And? Thats still a durability feat. Regenerationn doesnt excuse durability.
>And in the manga, DA knocked it on its ass, despite it hitting its crystal, which has been shown in every single media to be far more durable and resilient then the rest of it by far, yeah I know it is its weak point, but said weak point is also its most durable point, by such a hilarious degree that vaporization of its body cant even scratch the thing
The crystal being "more durable" is complete headcanon. That was never stated. The crystal on its body is just Deoxys's brain. But please kindly link something that says its more durable. But thank you for providing this point anyway. Mega Ray had to use its strongest attack on a weakspot on Deoxys to actually defeat it. Which it wouldnt have needed to do if Deoxys wasnt comparable at all.
It wasn't "heavily in favour" at all. Generations especially. Deoxys tanked a point-blank hyper beam and was unscathed. Just like how he was unscathed by Mega Ray's Dragon Ascent when it destroyed the meteor. Y'know, the one Deoxys was inside of? Again? And even when busting through its defense form, Deoxys was only knocked out. Is Mega Ray stronger? Of course. But Deoxys is in the same realm of power as Mega Ray no matter how you slice it.
>As recently as SM Ultra Squad shit, Deoxys fought normal Rayquaza, so no retcon there if it's still happening. And shown to be consistently the average, opposed to Mega Ray casually beating Deoxys with little to no effort. If you wanna pull the retcon card, your retcon got retconned. EP1067.
You know this fight basically happened off-screen right? The literal only thing we see on-screen is Base Rayquaza fire a hyper beam, which Deoxys very easily deflects. So this point is completely useless.
>Inverse square law, Deoxys didnt take the full brunt of the attack, the meteor did.
Which is debunked by the meteor being busted into pieces, which would have completely obliterated Deoxys if it couldnt tank the attack.
>The battle, as shown in generation and the manga, had deoxys get overwhelmed quickly and if not for its Regenerationn, would of been one shot multiple times over.
And? Thats still a durability feat. Regenerationn doesnt excuse durability.
>And in the manga, DA knocked it on its ass, despite it hitting its crystal, which has been shown in every single media to be far more durable and resilient then the rest of it by far, yeah I know it is its weak point, but said weak point is also its most durable point, by such a hilarious degree that vaporization of its body cant even scratch the thing
The crystal being "more durable" is complete headcanon. That was never stated. The crystal on its body is just Deoxys's brain. But please kindly link something that says its more durable. But thank you for providing this point anyway. Mega Ray had to use its strongest attack on a weakspot on Deoxys to actually defeat it. Which it wouldnt have needed to do if Deoxys wasnt comparable at all.
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Actually Deoxys didn't take the hyper beam and remain unscathed. The first Hyper Beam was blocked using a bunch of meteor fragments and the other ones were dodged. The one that hit him actually blew off a portion of his body. And Dragon Ascent knocked him out after piercing through a Psycho Boost in Attack Form and breaking through his Barrier in Defense Form so maybe you could chalk Deoxys only getting knocked unconscious due to Deoxys being in defense form and the attack getting weakened after all that.
It was offscreen but we do see a few flashes of light in the background which kinda implies they were clashing in the background.
And do we actually know if Rayquaza even hit Deoxys? For all we know the Dragon Ascent might've just missed Deoxys when Mega Rayquaza destroyed Grand Meteor Delta.
That's actually more of a stamina feat not durability feat. We actually see that Mega Rayquaza's normal attacks have no problem destroying parts of Deoxys' body.
I mean didn't Mega Rayquaza straight up ko'd Deoxys in Generations without aiming for the core?
It was offscreen but we do see a few flashes of light in the background which kinda implies they were clashing in the background.
And do we actually know if Rayquaza even hit Deoxys? For all we know the Dragon Ascent might've just missed Deoxys when Mega Rayquaza destroyed Grand Meteor Delta.
That's actually more of a stamina feat not durability feat. We actually see that Mega Rayquaza's normal attacks have no problem destroying parts of Deoxys' body.
I mean didn't Mega Rayquaza straight up ko'd Deoxys in Generations without aiming for the core?
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>It wasn't "heavily in favour" at all. Generations especially. Deoxys tanked a point-blank hyper beam and was unscathed. Just like how he was unscathed by Mega Ray's Dragon Ascent when it destroyed the meteor. Y'know, the one Deoxys was inside of? Again? And even when busting through its defense form, Deoxys was only knocked out. Is Mega Ray stronger? Of course. But Deoxys is in the same realm of power as Mega Ray no matter how you slice it.
It was. Most of the fight resulted in Deoxys playing tag, whenever Ray landed a hit, it vaped it or ko'd it. It didnt tank shit, it was vaporized, the part of it that got hit was vaporized, that's not tanking, if it wasnt for its regern it'd be dead. Yes I know, I dont think you understand how inverse square law works. Especially when it was protected by billion of tons of meteor. It took some of the energy of course, but sure as hell not all of it, especially given its surface area. Deoxys was knocked out after DA lol noped a psycho boost, pulverized its shield and then only knicked Deoxys, because if you pay attention, Deoxys reels/gets knocked back by it's forefield shattering and doesnt get hit by the full attack. And in the manga? Ray didnt even fight back till it was given a command. He kinda just took it for awhile and was fine after.
>You know this fight basically happened off-screen right? The literal only thing we see on-screen is Base Rayquaza fire a hyper beam, which Deoxys very easily deflects. So this point is completely useless.
It isnt pointless because it shows that the whole ray vs deoxys thing is still something that's happening, often, if Deoxys was stronger there wouldnt be a fight.
>Which is debunked by the meteor being busted into pieces, which would have completely obliterated Deoxys if it couldnt tank the attack.
Uh, I really dont think you know how inverse square law works. That would only be the case if Deoxys took the full amount of the blast, he didnt, he only took a bit of it. The meteor being shattered into pieces doesnt debunk anything, in fact that's why im convinced you dont actually know how inverse square law works. If anything that proves my point. In fact I can calc it if you want, it'll probably end up a few thousand times lower than the feat's AP.
>And? Thats still a durability feat. Regenerationn doesnt excuse durability.
Uh, no, that isnt a durability feat when everytime it actually got hit the part that got hit was wiped from existence. THat's a regenration feat, not durability.
>The crystal being "more durable" is complete headcanon. That was never stated. The crystal on its body is just Deoxys's brain. But please kindly link something that says its more durable. But thank you for providing this point anyway. Mega Ray had to use its strongest attack on a weakspot on Deoxys to actually defeat it. Which it wouldnt have needed to do if Deoxys wasnt comparable at all.
You're joking right? The crystal is the only part that has been shown to withstand attacks that completely vaporize the rest of its body. Movie 7? Rayquaza nuked it to shit, Deoxys was completely vaporized without a trace yet the crystal had no damage, and this goes for every instance, the crystal always takes zero damage while the body gets blown to dust. It doesnt need to be stated if it's shoved down your throat numerous times yelling hey look the crystal is famore durable then its body. If you cant realize that I think that's the least of our issues. Not everything has to be written in text for it to be true. It being its brain doesnt matter, it's a weak point in that damaging it is what can actually kill it but it aint a weak point, it's a weakness to it but not a point that's vulnrable, it's still consistently shown to be significantly more durable than its actual body, like, in every single instamce in pokemon media. And nice thanks for ignoring the fact Mega Ray voided the crystal, essentially killing Deoxys in one hit, while not even Mewtwo trying its hardest could do that amount of damage.
It was. Most of the fight resulted in Deoxys playing tag, whenever Ray landed a hit, it vaped it or ko'd it. It didnt tank shit, it was vaporized, the part of it that got hit was vaporized, that's not tanking, if it wasnt for its regern it'd be dead. Yes I know, I dont think you understand how inverse square law works. Especially when it was protected by billion of tons of meteor. It took some of the energy of course, but sure as hell not all of it, especially given its surface area. Deoxys was knocked out after DA lol noped a psycho boost, pulverized its shield and then only knicked Deoxys, because if you pay attention, Deoxys reels/gets knocked back by it's forefield shattering and doesnt get hit by the full attack. And in the manga? Ray didnt even fight back till it was given a command. He kinda just took it for awhile and was fine after.
>You know this fight basically happened off-screen right? The literal only thing we see on-screen is Base Rayquaza fire a hyper beam, which Deoxys very easily deflects. So this point is completely useless.
It isnt pointless because it shows that the whole ray vs deoxys thing is still something that's happening, often, if Deoxys was stronger there wouldnt be a fight.
>Which is debunked by the meteor being busted into pieces, which would have completely obliterated Deoxys if it couldnt tank the attack.
Uh, I really dont think you know how inverse square law works. That would only be the case if Deoxys took the full amount of the blast, he didnt, he only took a bit of it. The meteor being shattered into pieces doesnt debunk anything, in fact that's why im convinced you dont actually know how inverse square law works. If anything that proves my point. In fact I can calc it if you want, it'll probably end up a few thousand times lower than the feat's AP.
>And? Thats still a durability feat. Regenerationn doesnt excuse durability.
Uh, no, that isnt a durability feat when everytime it actually got hit the part that got hit was wiped from existence. THat's a regenration feat, not durability.
>The crystal being "more durable" is complete headcanon. That was never stated. The crystal on its body is just Deoxys's brain. But please kindly link something that says its more durable. But thank you for providing this point anyway. Mega Ray had to use its strongest attack on a weakspot on Deoxys to actually defeat it. Which it wouldnt have needed to do if Deoxys wasnt comparable at all.
You're joking right? The crystal is the only part that has been shown to withstand attacks that completely vaporize the rest of its body. Movie 7? Rayquaza nuked it to shit, Deoxys was completely vaporized without a trace yet the crystal had no damage, and this goes for every instance, the crystal always takes zero damage while the body gets blown to dust. It doesnt need to be stated if it's shoved down your throat numerous times yelling hey look the crystal is famore durable then its body. If you cant realize that I think that's the least of our issues. Not everything has to be written in text for it to be true. It being its brain doesnt matter, it's a weak point in that damaging it is what can actually kill it but it aint a weak point, it's a weakness to it but not a point that's vulnrable, it's still consistently shown to be significantly more durable than its actual body, like, in every single instamce in pokemon media. And nice thanks for ignoring the fact Mega Ray voided the crystal, essentially killing Deoxys in one hit, while not even Mewtwo trying its hardest could do that amount of damage.
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>Actually Deoxys didn't take the hyper beam and remain unscathed. He actually got a portion of his body blown off.
Thats what I meant by unscathed. Deoxys had a portion of his body blown off, a portion he immediately regen'd, as opposed to being completely obliterated by the attack. Thats a durability feat for Deoxys.
>And Dragon Ascent knocked him out after piercing through a Psycho Boost in Attack Form and breaking through his Barrier in Defense Form so maybe you could chalk Deoxys only getting knocked unconscious due to the attack getting weakened after all that.
This still shows that Deoxys is comparable to Mega Ray. No one here is saying Deoxys is superior, just comparable. Its obvious Mega Ray is stronger.
>It was offscreen but we do see a few flashes of light in the background which kinda implies they were clashing.
No we don't. Im watching the episode right now and there aren't any flashes at all. The fight goes off screen the moment Deoxys deflects the hyper beam
>And do we actually know if Rayquaza even hit Deoxys? For all we know the Dragon Ascent might've just narrowly missed Deoxys when Rayquaza destroyed the meteor.
Which is more speculation and assumptious than simply going with Deoxys being hit by it via occams razor. The meteor in and of itself was completely obliterated by the attack. Not sliced or anything, obliterated. This strongly points more to Deoxys being hit by the attack as opposed to anything else. >That's actually more of a stamina feat not durability feat. We actually see that Mega Rayquaza's normal attacks have no problem destroying Deoxys' body.
See my first point.
>I mean didn't Dexoys straight up ko'd Deoxys in Generations without aiming for the core?
Yes, but that was after Mega Ray busted through Psycho Shift and then Deoxys's barrier after a struggle.
Thats what I meant by unscathed. Deoxys had a portion of his body blown off, a portion he immediately regen'd, as opposed to being completely obliterated by the attack. Thats a durability feat for Deoxys.
>And Dragon Ascent knocked him out after piercing through a Psycho Boost in Attack Form and breaking through his Barrier in Defense Form so maybe you could chalk Deoxys only getting knocked unconscious due to the attack getting weakened after all that.
This still shows that Deoxys is comparable to Mega Ray. No one here is saying Deoxys is superior, just comparable. Its obvious Mega Ray is stronger.
>It was offscreen but we do see a few flashes of light in the background which kinda implies they were clashing.
No we don't. Im watching the episode right now and there aren't any flashes at all. The fight goes off screen the moment Deoxys deflects the hyper beam
>And do we actually know if Rayquaza even hit Deoxys? For all we know the Dragon Ascent might've just narrowly missed Deoxys when Rayquaza destroyed the meteor.
Which is more speculation and assumptious than simply going with Deoxys being hit by it via occams razor. The meteor in and of itself was completely obliterated by the attack. Not sliced or anything, obliterated. This strongly points more to Deoxys being hit by the attack as opposed to anything else. >That's actually more of a stamina feat not durability feat. We actually see that Mega Rayquaza's normal attacks have no problem destroying Deoxys' body.
See my first point.
>I mean didn't Dexoys straight up ko'd Deoxys in Generations without aiming for the core?
Yes, but that was after Mega Ray busted through Psycho Shift and then Deoxys's barrier after a struggle.
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Uh, I think you need to step back and actually realize what those words you're using mean.
If it got blown to shit, it aint a durability feat. Actually, I dont know how you dont understand. If it tanked it, it wouldnt of goten a hole blown through it.
If it got blown to shit, it aint a durability feat. Actually, I dont know how you dont understand. If it tanked it, it wouldnt of goten a hole blown through it.
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And psycho boost was blown to shit, there was no struggle, and it destroyed defense forms forcefield in like 4 seconds, and cracked it on impact.
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I am 99% sure regenerating a portion of your body that got blown off is a stamina feat and not a durability feat. He didn't tank it his body still got destroyed from the attack.
Before Deoxys deflected Base Rayquaza's hyper beam there were flashes of light in space.
I'm pretty sure the meteor wasn't completely obliterated. It was shattered into many pieces which is why I said maybe it also blasted Deoxys away but it didn't actually hit him.
Doesn't one hit ko'ing somebody with the same attack that broke through their strongest attack in attack form and their strongest defense in defense form indicate that he's much more powerful?
Before Deoxys deflected Base Rayquaza's hyper beam there were flashes of light in space.
I'm pretty sure the meteor wasn't completely obliterated. It was shattered into many pieces which is why I said maybe it also blasted Deoxys away but it didn't actually hit him.
Doesn't one hit ko'ing somebody with the same attack that broke through their strongest attack in attack form and their strongest defense in defense form indicate that he's much more powerful?
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I would but then if anyone wnats to read it, they'd have to crisscross between threads.
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