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Big Pokemon revision

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About the "Pis arguments" :
How is that even a thing exactly ? Can anyone tell me why we should ignore all of the anti feats and we simply just consider them Pis and we takes vague statements and feats as legitimate ? That doesn't make sense as Arceus and The Creation Trio as a whole were constantly shown to be harmed by pokemons far weaker than 2-B :

1) we have Arceus who got harmed by thousands of regular pokemons in "Arceus and the Jowel of life" movie :

8203138-arceusgetsbodied.gif


This does not surprise me considering Arceus got also harmed by Pikachu because apparently Arceus lost one of his plates that gives him resistance to electricity.

2) Arceus struggled against a Meteor and he had a hard time to destroy it :

8306791-hnet-image%2810%29.gif


3) those are clearly 2-B pokemons :

8148170-ps457.png


4) and it happened yet again :

8203462-dialgagetstackledbymomoswhine.jpg


5) I'm pretty sure that the one who harmed Darkrai isn't a 2-B pokemon either :
8306759-hnet-image%289%29.gif


6) but yeah sure we are gonna pretend that all of that shit is just Pis :

8203392-darkraidamged.gif


8203456-spectilebodiesdarkrai.gif


7) and just no :

8203148-taurostacklesdialga.jpg


8) Giratina struggled against Rayquaza :

8306781-rayquazatacklesgiratina.gif


9) yet Dialga himself struggled against Regigigas :

images


10) and here's an other one :

images


11) Giratina gets harmed by zero's machine twice but the machine is probably 2-B I guess

12) Mega Latios should have MFTL+ possibly infinite speed I guess


13) and again


14) the 2-B lake guardians got trapped inside of a 2-B machine (obviously) and it was stated that if all the pokemons attacked together the lake trio would get harmed


Do I even need to continue ? 14 anti feats and yet there are still many and there is absolutely no reason why they should be Pis/Outlier if they were consistently shown to be on that level , I really want to ask people with an actual Brain how in the **** this Can be considered Pis if most of their feats were consistently shown to be on that level ?


About the 2-B supporting statements and feats :
After looking at all of the supporting statements and feats that support the Creation Trio and Arceus being 2-B I actually noticed that there is very little evidence that all of those ***** scales to their physical stats and they are mostly done via pure hax due to many reasons :

1) we have absolutely no clue if those low 2-C/2-B feats are done via raw power rather than just hax the reason is that we've never seen destroying the universe directly but they were only doing that via indirect methods such us destroying the universe by distorting/warping Space and time resulting in mixing both past and future which was eventually gonna destroy the whole universe in an unknown time frame , or when they are destroying the universe by just opening portals or making holes in space and time and they always use the same method to destroy the universe which again there is no evidence that those Space-time distortions abilities scales to their stats since it sounds more like hax based to me .


2) looking at their anti feats as shown above there is no wonder that all of those tier 2 feats performed by Palkia and Dialga doesn't scale to their regular stats and that all of them are just done via space-time hax

Yeah don't see how any of that scales to their AP and durability ,the way how Palkia and Dialga perform those Universal feats is pretty simple : Dialga is using time powers and Palkia is using Space powers and by combining those powers together they have the ability to warp/distort Space and time allowing them to destroy universe in the process hence why Cyrus need both Palkia and Dialga together to perform such a feat.

The 5-B Meteor :
Here's the calc

As shown in the Kinetic energy page :

"There is a destruction/AP calculation contradicting a kinetic energy calculation. The destruction/AP calculation would take priority over the kinetic energy calculation in this case as the AP calculation would be a better proof in regards to how much damage he/she is capable of in an attack."

AP/DC feats takes priority over Kinetic energy if said AP contradict the supposed KE and by visual feats alone the meteor only destroyed the planet crust which is High 6-A so this contradict the 5-B KE therefore it should be removed and the Weather trio should be downgraded back to High 6-A

Conclusion :
  • Arceus and the creation true forms would keep their 2-B rating (for now ) as for their avatars they should be downgraded to High 6-A scaling to the weather trio
  • None of the creation trio tier 2 feats are done via AP and they are just done via hax that doesn't scale to their regular stats which should explain why we always see them getting harmed by things far lower than Tier 2
  • Ultra beasts including Necrozma should also be downgraded to High 6-A the same reasons as the creation Trio and yes absorbing light and lighting up something should be considered hax (Light manipulation ) unless it was specifically shown that it scales to their regular stats
  • The Meteor AP result contradict it's KE so it should be removed as stated above
 
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I think 2-B Buizel is consistent

But honestly, I'm kind of against movie Darkrai and Tobias' Darkrai scaling the same, it's fairly obvious Tobias' is jobber and clearly does not have any scaling suggesting it's CT level.
 
I can see the avatar keys being variable tier tbh
They really should ,my real issue isn't about the anti feats but it's about the High end feats themselves being completely vague with 0 evidence that it scales to their physical stats and I only brought up some anti feats as a supporting evidence.

There is also the 5-B Delta meteor that you should worry about to since it contradict the KE page
 
Regarding the machines, Giratina's case is litteraly one made to restrain him, so I don't see any problem with that.

Also since we use manga, we can clearly see that they use physical attacks to create the distorsions stuff. In addition to this, we still have the game (where they distorded the world by sheer presence or roaring) and the anime (where they destroyed a universe they created with two attacks).

I don't really see how this is supposed to be any form of hax here.

Also, Pokemon do have a lot of PIS. What you say for the random pokemons or Latios can be applied to pretty much everyone and their grandmother in the entire series and across most mediums.
 
Here we ******* go again with the meteor. Jesus Christ.

  • Arceus didn't struggle against the meteor. In fact, he was completely unharmed.
  • The point of that scene is not to show the limits of Arceus' power, but how his plates are his literal life force, and without them, he weakens
  • Following that same last point, Arceus is only harmed by a specific weakness of him not having the plate thst counters and powers him; it's a weakness they are exploiting, not his limits in power. In fact, in that same scene he basically one shots everyone.

These are not anti-feats, this is a showcase of a specific weakness Movie!Arceus has. That is it.
 
Yeah I have nothing more to say to this other than one big MOTHERF***ING NO.

Especially given the person who has made this.

We’ve had these discussions literally billions of goddamn times and they always end the same way. Nothing is changing. The scaling and tiers are staying exactly why they are and we 110% need a discussion rule for this.
 
On top of what everyone else has said, the biggest issue with the whole "they created the multiverse with hax and not AP" is that they use those same hax to attack people and show a similar degree of power both when and when not using Roar of Time/Spatial Rend.
 
Jesus.

*******.

Christ.

I've explained like 500 times how that shit doesn't invalidate their ratings. I'd just say to make a Discussion Rule and end it.
 
5-B/High 6-A Meteor seems to be more of a calc issue, I'll leave that to them.

To answer your question though, yes, we can call these instances PIS. Because in nearly every case, the Pokemon in question showcases Tier 2 feats.

In Arceus and the Jewel of Life, Arceus is stated on the hard-cover to be capable of destroying at the very least the parallel universes shown in the film. The fundamental plot of the film, and the previous "Rise of Darkrai" is that the shockwaves caused by Arceus simply waking up caused several dimensions to shake, and caused Dialga's and Palkia's spaces to collide. Not to mention that the infamous meteor that Arceus destroyed is above the AP of our fully evolved Pokemon, and even then Arceus was fine once its plates were returned. Also, since you brought up stuff from the Rise of Darkrai, Dialga and Palkia's fight there affected the space-time of at least several different dimensions. Both Palkia and Dialga believed the other to be capable of performing Arceus' feat of causing two dimensions to collide together.

Tobias is complete PIS, it puts Darkrai and base Latios somewhat on par with each other, and comparable to several of Ash's Pokemon as well. I think writers have also admitted that Tobias was basically just a plot device to make Ash believably lose the Sinnoh conference. Also, I'm not too sure but I believe that, for at least some movies, the anime and movies are in the same universe? Meaning that the Tobias fight would directly contradict Rise of Darkrai. Anime Dialga and Palkia have blatant Low 2-C feats. Hoopa movie is also complete PIS too.

Not as knowledgable about the manga, but Dialga and Palkia also show at least Low 2-C feats there.

I don't get why their space-time distortion stuff wouldn't scale to Dialga and Palkia? In context it's clearly an immediate thing that's going to occur in the games, and in the manga too even with everyone trying to stop it. Also, their powers literally revolve around space-time stuff. Creation feats are still acceptable as AP, which like half of the lore surrounding Dialga and Palkia would grant them in basically every game that they're in. Dialga and Palkia very clearly destroy a universe (which they had just created) with AP in the anime. Plus all of the feats mentioned above, all the lore that puts the Creation Trio and Arceus above even other legendary Pokemon, and so on. You aggressively claim that anyone with a brain wouldn't be able to call this PIS, but every single source you've shown has contradicted itself in terms of power? And with a couple of exceptions, provide them with tier 2 feats? What is this if not cherry-picking? Also I don't get your scaling - why would they scale to the weather trio? Couldn't you make the same arguments from incredulity about High 6-A creation trio?

Also illumination feats aren't hax, light is a legitimate way to determine energy and Necrozma's main attacks are light-based. Dunno why you tagged that onto the conclusion with no context.
 
Oh sidenote, a thread along the same lines was made by the user earlier this year, and it was also unanimously disagreed on. Very tempted to close this outright.
 
Before this inevitably gets closed, should we add a discussion rule on the verse's page that says why people should stop using the Arceus meteor thing? Getting tired of the argument as well.
 
I actually find it extremely hilarious that the hax only argument is coming back up when the OP already made a thread specifically about that and it was debunked and disagreed with woefully
 
I’m surprised how much leeway this verse gets with its use of “PIS” if I’m being honest.

putting the Avatars as “variable” tiers would likely solve all scaling issues and would probably be more accurate. It’s not like every avatar needs to be 2-A.
 
For Grand Meteor Delta, doesn't the 1st calc of that feat use a scan that shows the planet being busted by the impact instead of surface destruction?

I remember asking source on that but I don't remember if that got cleared up.
 
I’m surprised how much leeway this verse gets with its use of “PIS” if I’m being honest.

putting the Avatars as “variable” tiers would likely solve all scaling issues and would probably be more accurate. It’s not like every avatar needs to be 2-A.
And not all avatars are 2-A, you are correct. In fact, we even put the avatars in Cyrus' team as Low 2-C for their feat of creating a universe (Cyrus' plan which he achieved in the rainbow rocket stuff). Specific avatars have specific feats to which they scale to. That's what the OP doesn't seem to understand.

The CT's profile is for their full powered forms. That is all.
 
And not all avatars are 2-A, you are correct. In fact, we even put the avatars in Cyrus' team as Low 2-C for their feat of creating a universe (Cyrus' plan which he achieved in the rainbow rocket stuff). Specific avatars have specific feats to which they scale to. That's what the OP doesn't seem to understand.

The CT's profile is for their full powered forms. That is all.
They have a true form key in which they’re indisputably 2-A.

but by your own admission, the tier of the avatars are varied, so as far as I can tell, putting the avatars as a variable tier from whatever low end to 2-A makes the most sense.

it would literally stop any and all downgrade threads as there would be no possible argument one could make and it’s inconsequential to the true form and the usage of these Pokémon in Vs threads.

seems like a win to me
 
They have a true form key in which they’re indisputably 2-A.

but by your own admission, the tier of the avatars are varied, so as far as I can tell, putting the avatars as a variable tier from whatever low end to 2-A makes the most sense.
Cyrus' Dialga/Palkia are kept in Poke Balls, which is stated to prevent them from using their full power. I think we should avoid using "Varies" tiers unless characters actually vary in canon rather than characters from massive franchises with lots of writers having inconsistencies.
 
They have a true form key in which they’re indisputably 2-A.

but by your own admission, the tier of the avatars are varied, so as far as I can tell, putting the avatars as a variable tier from whatever low end to 2-A makes the most sense.

it would literally stop any and all downgrade threads as there would be no possible argument one could make and it’s inconsequential to the true form and the usage of these Pokémon in Vs threads.

seems like a win to me
They are simply not variable. That's the point. Specific individual showcases which the OP is trying to use all at the same time to downgrade the whole.

Which honestly is our own fault for how we treat the verse. But yeah.
 
Cyrus' Dialga/Palkia are kept in Poke Balls, which is stated to prevent them from using their full power. I think we should avoid using "Varies" tiers unless characters actually vary in canon rather than characters from massive franchises with lots of writers having inconsistencies.
I’m just saying, it’s hard to argue PIS when these 2_A beings are getting smacked around by a Buizel and multiple other weak Pokémon back to back over and over again in the manga.

it’s more sensible to me that this avatar is just weak
 
1) we have Arceus who got harmed by thousands of regular pokemons in "Arceus and the Jowel of life" movie :

8203138-arceusgetsbodied.gif
Out of context as Arceus was in a state of shock due to it being betrayed from humans, thus unable to react properly.
2) Arceus struggled against a Meteor and he had a hard time to destroy it :

8306791-hnet-image%2810%29.gif
Only effect it had was to launch away its plates, which was what actually """killed""" it. Body and Plates were still intact.
3) those are clearly 2-B pokemons :

8148170-ps457.png


4) and it happened yet again :

8203462-dialgagetstackledbymomoswhine.jpg


5) I'm pretty sure that the one who harmed Darkrai isn't a 2-B pokemon either :
8306759-hnet-image%289%29.gif


6) but yeah sure we are gonna pretend that all of that shit is just Pis :

8203392-darkraidamged.gif


8203456-spectilebodiesdarkrai.gif


7) and just no :

8203148-taurostacklesdialga.jpg

Not the first time when this happens. Legendaries are shown to lose against regular mons due to PIS (like Articuno vs Charizard or Pikachu vs Reshiram), so why should the Creation Trio's ratings be invalidated if with other legendaries that doesn't happen?
8) Giratina struggled against Rayquaza :

8306781-rayquazatacklesgiratina.gif
That movie is full of inconsistencies unless you think that Primal Groudon = Rayquaza = Black/White Kyurem.
11) Giratina gets harmed by zero's machine twice but the machine is probably 2-B I guess
The dude has studided the Distortion World for years and the machine has 99% of Giratina's power. So what?
1) we have absolutely no clue if those low 2-C/2-B feats are done via raw power rather than just hax the reason is that we've never seen destroying the universe directly but they were only doing that via indirect methods such us destroying the universe by distorting/warping Space and time resulting in mixing both past and future which was eventually gonna destroy the whole universe in an unknown time frame , or when they are destroying the universe by just opening portals or making holes in space and time and they always use the same method to destroy the universe which again there is no evidence that those Space-time distortions abilities scales to their stats since it sounds more like hax based to me .
I've already explained in the previous CRT of yours how that was physical and the feats which lead to such.

We got also more feats to back these up in the Gen 8 materials, like in anime Dialga and Palkia causing portals from just fighting each other.

Palkia_and_Dialga_Clash.gif


And in BDSP, Dialga's feat was performed from just roaring, dunno how could you say that is hax only.

Here's the calc

As shown in the Kinetic energy page :

"There is a destruction/AP calculation contradicting a kinetic energy calculation. The destruction/AP calculation would take priority over the kinetic energy calculation in this case as the AP calculation would be a better proof in regards to how much damage he/she is capable of in an attack."

AP/DC feats takes priority over Kinetic energy if said AP contradict the supposed KE and by visual feats alone the meteor only destroyed the planet crust which is High 6-A so this contradict the 5-B KE therefore it should be removed and the Weather trio should be downgraded back to High 6-A
Guess we gonna remove Sonic's 5-A calc with this logic lmfao.
  • Ultra beasts including Necrozma should also be downgraded to High 6-A the same reasons as the creation Trio and yes absorbing light and lighting up something should be considered hax (Light manipulation ) unless it was specifically shown that it scales to their regular stats
Light can be measured in Watts, which are basically joules/s, and Necrozma basically absorbed light which contains enough energy that is that much strong about Joules.
 
I’m just saying, it’s hard to argue PIS when these 2_A beings are getting smacked around by a Buizel and multiple other weak Pokémon back to back over and over again in the manga.

it’s more sensible to me that this avatar is just weak
Most of the scans (if not straight up all) in the OP lack context and doesn't show the full scene. Most of the time, they are completely unharmed by these attacks, and only themselves can visibly harm the other fighting.
 
Not the first time when this happens. Legendaries are shown to lose against regular mons due to PIS (like Articuno vs Charizard or Pikachu vs Reshiram), so why should the Creation Trio's ratings be invalidated if with other legendaries that doesn't happen?
Articuno vs Charizard PIS? Bruh, wut.
 
Don’t get me wrong, I am not in any way against 2-A CT.

But I think there’s merit to the idea not all avatars are created equal.

And I wanna use Dialga in high 6-A
 
Don’t get me wrong, I am not in any way against 2-A CT.

But I think there’s merit to the idea not all avatars are created equal.

And I wanna use Dialga in high 6-A
All of them, with no exception, are tier 2. Quite blatantly, in fact. There's many inconsistent things in Pokémon, the CT's power and scale is not one of them.

Edit:
just realized this is the most involved I've been in a pkmn thread in since forever
 
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